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From LinkedIn News, I'm Jessi Hempel, host of the Hello Monday podcast. Start your week with the Hello Monday podcast. We'll navigate career pivots.
We'll learn where happiness fits in.
Listen to Hello Monday with me, Jesse Hemphill, on the LinkedIn Podcast Network or wherever you get your podcasts.
Ruth, welcome back, my friend!
Thanks for having me.
I am so excited to always chat with you.
Yes, likewise! And I mean, listeners, you almost missed out on an episode because we've been chit -chatting for the last half hour.
So I'm glad we're able to make it happen again.
We've got plans for the future already done.
Absolutely. world domination, world peace, world domination, everything.
Oh, yes. When that be great.
Well, Ruth, for the listeners who missed your first episode, can you remind them who you are and what you do?
Absolutely. Hey, everyone, I am Dr. Ruth Gautian, I am based in New York City.
I am a social scientist who studies extreme high achievers, Nobel Prize winners, astronauts, Olympians, NBA champions, CEOs to figure out what has made them so successful, on how the rest of us mere mortals can improve our success and know you don't need to wake up at 5 a .m. read eight hours a day.
I wrote a bunch of books.
The last two are The Success Factor, which is all about the high achievers.
And the new book is Financial Times Guide to Mentoring.
How to be a better mentor, mentee and how organizations can develop effective mentoring programs. And I'm a dear friend of Kwame.
Yes. Oh, this is great, Ruth.
It's good to have you back.
And I think the first question that listeners are asking about is, uh, you said you don't need to wake up at 5am or read for eight hours a day.
But do you need to take a cold shower?
No. No. Because I would prefer to be warm and unsuccessful.
No cold showers, no making your bed before you do anything else and stop trying to copy other people's habits.
It doesn't work. Thank you.
I mean, we could end the podcast right.
We're done. That's it.
Great chatting. And, uh, listeners, this is going to be a fun topic because I'm sure we've touched on this in other episodes, but we haven't explicitly discussed this, which is, how to talk to strangers.
And when Ruth suggested this topic, I thought it was fascinating.
And so, Ruth, how about you just set the stage when you think about how to talk to strangers, what does that mean to you?
And then we'll build from there.
Sure. Well, there's two parts.
how did a social scientist wind up talking to nine -time NBA champion Steve Kerr or Dr. Tony Fauci or Olympic champion Scott Hamilton or astronauts, right?
How did little old me start to talk to them?
And I will say that's networking and referrals.
So people recommend you to someone.
And then what do you say?
Because I don't know the first thing about going to space.
But yet just last week and I had a conversation with the next pilot of the show that's going to the moon.
So we had plenty to talk about.
And also I am a 95 % extrovert.
I can talk to anyone because I am curious about their story.
I am curious less about their title and more about who they are.
And I've got some tricks up my sleeve, which to me happens so naturally.
I didn't even realize I was doing it till someone pointed it out to me.
And now I've developed a whole program around it.
Incredible. And before we go into the how tos and get into that, I want to speak to the introverts who might be scared right now or uncomfortable because they said Ruth just said she's an it an extrovert.
What does she have to offer me?
So what do you have a for our introvert friends?
Not just an extrovert, a 95 % extrovert, look I'm an adult educator.
We test ourselves a lot and it came up, 95 is off the charts.
So being in quarantine during COVID five times was almost the end of me.
But I am married to the daughter of the mother of the sister of introverts.
I have been surrounded by them so it has taken me a lot of time to figure out and how to structure this so that the introverts don't feel totally overwhelmed, don't want to prefer to stay home in pajamas rather than going out and really want to talk about something other than the weather.
So yes, there are definitely things that you can do.
No, you absolutely do not need to go to all those big networking events, and you certainly don't need to stay for the entire time.
There are definitely things that you can do that will alleviate some of that stress and anxiety and overwhelm and make it meaningful and the first thing I would recommend is stop going in with a to -do list. There are no transactions that need to take place.
Go and find an interesting person to talk to.
That's number one. Number two, bring a wink person with you.
Make that a friend, a colleague, a partner, whatever it is, so that you don't have to walk in alone.
Three, decide how long you're going to stay, because sometimes you don't need to say anything.
You don't need to talk to anyone.
You just need to see and be seen.
So decide how long you want to stay in advance and then make a graceful exit.
And we can talk about strategies later about making graceful exits.
If not, I can send you a bunch of articles that I wrote on how to do that.
But there are also ways to replenish your energy during the event.
So very often when I'm talking to introverts, I say, one hour max, max.
That is all you are staying.
And at the 20 -minute mark or the 30 -minute mark, you go to the restroom.
Not because you need to relieve yourself, but you just need some silence.
You just need some white space.
You just need to regroup and you just get back down to baseline, and then you can go out and start again.
And it's about having meaningful conversation with people that you are truly interested in.
And, of course, this is a lot being thrown out all at once.
Having conversation starters is so important, because if you want to avoid talking about the weather, and who doesn't, then having meaningful conversation starters are so important because that could strike up the conversation.
It's a benign way to start a conversation starter where it shows curiosity.
It shows that you care.
You can listen more than you have to speak.
And that's going to be so helpful.
And if you want 13 of my favorite conversation starters, you can just download them from there on my website.
Ruth Gotian, R -U -T -H -G -O -T -I -A -N, ruthgotian .com slash conversation.
Unbelievable. I feel like this is the second workout of my day.
My hand is tired from all of these notes.
I would describe this as a strong start, Ruth, a strong start.
So just a quick synopsis for everybody.
I think the biggest takeaway is the fact that with this methodology that you've created, it is designed for authentic engagement, because you're not saying, all right, cool, what's your personality type?
Forget it, you're a 95 % extrovert now.
No, there's a methodology to that.
And there's a way that you can do it that's true to you and also helps you to manage your energy, so it's not as overwhelming.
I think that is first of all, I want to start off with that empowering note because I think that's important to focus on.
Oh, thank you. And sometimes I'll tell you some of the errors that people make and this is introverts and extroverts and that's probably the last I'll talk about the personality differences because I don't think it's so relevant.
I think what's important is some people will go to whatever the event is, the office party, the dinner party, whoever, and they will only talk to people who they know.
Well, what's the point of that?
You already know them, right?
So I was just at a conference a lot of people who I knew and a lot of people who I didn't know.
So that first night I will sit with the people who I know because we all feel a little stiff, right?
On the first day we don't really know, you know, our footing is a little wobbly, so we want to start with the people who we know that makes it safe.
And then Kwame, you can introduce me to your friend and the next person is going to introduce me to your friend.
Now I've doubled the number of people who I know.
And for the rest of conference I only sit with people who I don't know.
Because I talk to my New York friends who happened to be there at the conference all the time.
I don't need to go to California to speak with my New York friends.
I want to meet new people.
So I will always congregate and hang out with them.
And I will say something like, What was your favorite session so far?
If it's at a conference or what brought you to this meeting?
Right? That's like saying, Are you from the bride side or the groom side?
What brought you here?
What are you most looking forward to at this conference?
Now very often, the speakers, people want to rush to the speakers.
Avoid doing that because it's you and a long line and they'll give you 30 seconds of their time, maybe.
And trust me, they are not going to remember you.
I give keynotes all the time.
The line is outrageous.
After a talk, I can't have a meaningful conversation with anyone.
So here are two tricks that you can do.
The first is, if you know someone's going to be at that conference, at that meeting, at that networking event, at that dinner, reach out to them in advance.
Kwame, I hear you're speaking at the such -and -such event.
I will be there. I know you're going to have a long line.
So if you're available before the talk or after the talk, I'd love to reach out to you.
I especially want to talk to you about X.
Or, I just want to say hi and allow you to put a face with the name.
All are good. Right?
Now, here's something about speakers.
And Kwame, you and I both speak so you give keynotes so we know about this.
We arrived there early.
We do our tech check.
This takes 10 minutes and then we're standing around.
We are standing around playing on our phone because you don't want to, you don't want to bother the conference organizer cause they're busy running around like chickens without heads.
And the tech is already set.
So literally there's no one for us to talk to.
If you want to talk to these people come before their talk in that space between their tech checkup and when they hit the stage, you'll have their undivided attention because no one else is there to talk to them.
You will have undivided attention and that is worth its weight in gold.
The other thing you can do is wait until after the stage.
And sometimes later on that day and sometimes they hang around for the day after a conference, you can just say, Kwame, I love the comment that you made about such and such. It got me thinking about so -and -so.
That shows you I listened.
I listened to what you said.
I thought about it.
It resonated. Now, here's what you do afterwards, and this is where most people drop the ball.
They go to some event.
They will collect business cards or however we do it today, electronic or print.
And that's sort of the end of it.
They might connect with them on LinkedIn, and that's the end of it.
don't do that here's what I want you to do instead this is something that the co -author of the mentoring book Andy LaPada taught me it's called 24 seven thirty rule 24 hours after you meet the person let's say Kwame and I just met Kwame it was so great meeting you at the such -and -such meeting I loved the comments you said about so -and -so that's it one line seven days later Kwame I've really been thinking about what you said about negotiations.
It got me thinking about this article I read, this podcast I listened to, this conversation I had with so -and -so.
Do you agree? Disagree?
Thirty days later you follow up again with another comment, some sort of engagement.
Now at this point you have regular communication and it doesn't feel like stalking.
You are now engaging with the person.
And trust me, there is a way you can help them without ever asking for any anything, trust me you do that.
You will have a connection, you will have a friendship with a person, right?
And trust me, that is how bonds and professional relationships and friendships are made.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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From LinkedIn news, I'm Jessi Hempel, host of the Hello Monday podcast. In my 20s, I knew what career success looked like.
In midlife, it's not that simple.
Work is changing, we're changing, and there's no guidebook for how to make sense of it.
So come figure it out with me on the Hello Monday Podcast. I've been a journalist for two decades, writing cover stories for Businessweek, Fortune, and Wired.
And now, every Monday, I bring you conversations with people who are thinking deeply about work and where it fits into our lives.
Like Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadella on growth mindsets.
The learned -all does better than the know -it -all.
or NYU professor Scott Galloway on choosing a career.
I think the worst advice you can give a kid is follow your passion or MacArthur Genius winner Angela Duckworth on talent versus grit.
Your long -term effort and your long -term commitment are surprisingly important.
Each episode delivers pragmatic advice for right now.
Listen to Hello Monday with me, Jesse Hempel, on the LinkedIn podcast network or wherever you get your podcasts.
Because when I'm gonna be honest, like when you started talking about how to get in touch with a keynote speaker, I'm thinking to myself, guarantee it won't work with me.
I don't want to know, this is perfect, because I'm thinking, yes, everything that you said was 100 % correct.
And then also for me too, I'm more of an ambivert, the centrovert, but a little bit more on the extroverted side.
And I realized that for me, before the speeches, I get nervous.
I want somebody to distract me.
So you just leave me to my own devices just by myself, like, I'm freaking out.
So come talk to me, distract me before I go on stage.
That'd be great. But then you're right after the fact everybody's lined up.
And then even though I want to give everybody like a really deep conversation.
The more I engage with one person, the more I almost disrespect the other person.
And then I disrespect the following speaker because they're trying to get on stage and there's this crowd here.
So this is, it's so simple.
You've operationalized it perfectly and it's doable and it doesn't come off as creepy or stalking.
This is brilliant. I'll give you one exception to that rule when it became creepy.
If you want that, I do want that.
My listeners want that for sure.
And it's happened twice, to me, twice as a pattern, right?
One is a enigma, twice as a pattern.
I gave a talk, we finished the talk, we did whatever we need to do.
And usually, before I fly out, I have my travel clothes.
I have my speaking clothes and I have my traveling clothes.
Speaking clothes is usually a blazer.
Traveling clothes, it's usually sweatpants and you would barely recognize me, right?
So, I go afterwards into the restroom with my little carry -on, so I can change my clothes.
And twice it's happened to me.
Somebody who was in the audience followed me into the bathroom.
That's creepy. Don't do that.
they said I really loved your talk I wanted to talk to you more about such and such and I'm like this is the bathroom so please don't do that you can wait for the person to come out you can get them before they go in so you guys can't see Kwame but he almost fell off his chair it's happened twice oh my goodness oh yeah that that crosses the line Just remember, it's like the bathroom is everybody's safe space, safe people's space there.
Man. No, this is great because a couple of things I just want to point out.
You with this, especially with the keynote speaker move, what you do is you create a relationship, you build a connection in a way that requires minimal engagement for them so it doesn't feel burdensome.
And I think that's one of the things that can hold people back a lot of times because Because there's almost, this is in your world too, so you might be able to actually speak a little bit more robustly about this.
But when you receive a message from somebody and it's like a long email, there's just this anxiety that fills you.
You're like, oh, now this feels like work.
And even if it is an incredibly long, beautifully written, very nice and generous, flowery email that is uplifting, it still feels like work because you're saying, I can't just reply back.
Hey, thanks. No, I need to kind of match that.
And now it's like, okay, I can't do it now.
I'll do it later. And then it just later just keeps on being pushed out into the future.
And then it just never comes.
So I like how manageable you make it for the other side to keep on engaging.
Yeah, and look the 24 -7 -30 rule also, it's helpful because you can do it right away.
And you can schedule the send dates.
You like that? So I do a lot of this stuff in airports and on planes, and then I will just schedule send it, and then obviously I'm connecting with them on social media and then able to connect with them as well.
So Kwame, should we tell the listeners our story?
Yeah, we met. Yes, absolutely.
Cause I think now that I think of it, you know, I mentioned, I do these things without thinking of them, but I think it perfectly illustrates how it works.
So I have been listening to Kwame's podcast for a very long time.
And another one of my absolute favorite podcasts is Coaching for Leaders with Dave Stachowiak.
And I've been a guest on Dave's podcast several times, especially when each book came out.
And when my new book, The Financial Times Guide to Mentoring, came out, Dave knew that I wanted to go on podcasts to talk about the mentoring book.
And he said, you need to talk to my friend Kwame.
So he made that introduction.
That introduction I think, now, I don't want to speak for you, but I think it gave it some legitimacy that this was not some stranger, right, this was someone that Dave put his reputation behind, which made you more likely to respond to that email.
And then I had already been listening to it and I already knew that one of my former students was a guest on your podcast. So right away on our first conversation, we spoke about that.
It was Frank Douglas.
We spoke about that right away.
We had that connection, right?
We weren't even talking about podcasting or promoting books or even negotiation.
We were talking about where we aligned.
And then we did our podcast interview and then it was great.
And I think we both really liked each other and respected each other after that, to the point that you naturally want to help the other person?
Right. You invited me back.
I sent you a bunch of referrals and it just kept continuing over and over.
You started referring me to other people.
And it started because one person recommended and suggested that we chat.
That's so true. Getting chills.
You're so right. And listeners, you don't realize this, but you need to thank Ruth for essentially every Olympian who has ever been on the podcast. So all of these connections, because you're spot on, because I've been friends with Dave for like five, six years.
And so we have such a tight friendship that if Dave recommend somebody, I'm going to say yes, I'm not betting Dave is the better.
Right. And so then, so it was an automatic yes.
Once he made that connection.
And so it allowed me to connect more wholeheartedly with you because you've already been pre -vetted and then you were generous and then it triggered reciprocity and we've just been helping each other ever since.
So this is no one's keeping score, nobody's keeping score because there's that trust that has now come into play.
And that trust is huge.
It's huge. That might be the most important thing.
And it started because someone pre -vetted, but their reputation on the line, and now you've pre -vetted people for me, I've pre -vetted people for you.
And it just keeps growing because I believe that it's not a competition.
There. I've spoken to many, many astronauts.
There is enough bright light for all of us to shine and it shines brighter when we help each other out.
And I think the more we do that, the better this world will be.
I agree. And you do that with people who you like and people who you know and people who you trust. So when you meet people you want to find where your world aligns.
That's what's so critical.
Right? Kwame NAR are very different.
We're two different generations, two different religions, two different cultures, two different states, not in the same field, but we immediately found where we align.
Because trust me, we are all a Venn diagram.
We all overlap in some way.
We just haven't figured out where that is.
And if you talk with someone you'll see where that overlap is.
And once you see the overlap, you see how much alike you are, that's when you can learn to start appreciating other people's differences as well.
But it starts with that overlap.
This is SO good. I feel like everything that you've said thus far in this interview could just be put on a postcard. It's tweetable.
It is tweetable! This is good.
This is amazing! because, listeners, here's what I want you to really appreciate about this, because I think when people talk about networking, it's become almost a dirty word sometimes.
And relationship building and business, it seems a little bit almost from the outside looking in, when you're just introduced to like how to do it, it might seem a little bit manipulative, disingenuous, inauthentic, those type of things.
But what Ruth has demonstrated here is that it is incredibly authentic.
And it is about making true connections just for the sake of making connections.
One of the things that you said earlier was you just want to have interesting conversations with interesting people.
That's really it. And you're just going to be guided by your curiosity, and eventually you will find that thing that brings you both together.
And then you just start to build off of each other and it's just purely positive energy and now sometimes positive business outcomes come from that, and that's great.
And sometimes they don't.
And that's fine too, because the relationship has value in itself.
So this is so, so powerful.
And again, it is accessible.
It's doable. It's practical and it's authentic.
And I have to tell you that is how I get to talk to astronauts, a Nobel Prize winner, and NBA champions and Olympians and CEOs, because someone has pre -vetted, they've pre -vetted me, and they then referred me to other people.
We have these great conversations.
we build that trust, then they refer me on to the next person.
And if I can find what to talk about with a Nobel Prize winning chemist and with astronauts and with Olympic champions and NBA champions, and I know nothing about these worlds, then there is enough that you can talk to anyone about anything.
It's about taking interest in who they are as people and about their journey.
you don't need to know all the details of going to space or we're going to the moon in 2025 you don't need to know about all the details of that but what does it take to become an astronaut and how many times did you need to Apply and what made you want to apply and what has the training been like and oh, you know now that I've spoken to so many Astronauts I spoke to so -and -so Astronaut and he said oh I was just on the phone with him last week So that's how it starts to build, because now there's that other trust factor, right?
I know you're buddy.
So that's how it grows.
And there's always something that you can help someone else with always.
You just need to figure out what that is, figure out what the other person needs help with.
You don't need to be the world's expert.
You just need to be the expert in the room.
And if you give them just one idea, it's worth it.
Kwame, you and I just had that discussion before we started recording.
You said I'm trying to figure out X.
And I was like, well, I've been thinking about X, here's where my thinking is.
You can take that advice, not take it, but a seed has been planted.
Incredible. It's so fascinating for me, just from somebody who was an aficionado of human connection, psychology and everything like that.
To have this conversation with you about the way that you approach it and how authentic it is.
And then me sitting there saying, oh my gosh, she's right.
She did that with me and it worked and I loved it.
So it's, what listeners, this is, this is impeccable.
This is impeccable.
And so Ruth, let's say somebody's listening to this and they're saying, you know what?
I can do this. I can make a friend.
What would you say is the first actionable step that they can take to start living their life this way?
Show up, show up, put on your shoes and show up.
Look, there are a lot of people and even this card carrying extrovert, COVID took some of it out of me.
I don't want to be around so many people so long and be on all the time.
I'm now finding it exhausting.
So what I do instead is, and I travel a lot when I do keynotes and stuff, is I say, what do I know in that town?
And I will contact them and say, I'm gonna be in Dublin, Ireland, on this date.
I'm organizing some people who I know, do you want to meet up for dinner?
And I'll get four, five, six, 10 people together.
And I've done this all over, Washington DC, California, whatever.
And we'll go out to eat together.
And I know all of them, but they don't know each other.
So they automatically now expanded their network.
Now there's some intention behind all of this.
I'll put together this group of people.
And then the day before is I usually send an email to everyone saying, this is who's coming to dinner.
This is where we're meeting, the time, the date, whatever.
The reservation's in my name.
And then I, I say, here's Kwame Christian, and I give a link to your LinkedIn and a one sentence bio, right?
He's a negotiation expert.
He has his own podcast called Negotiate Anything, et cetera.
And I'll do that for each person who's coming.
So now everyone's excited.
Everyone is excited about who's coming to the dinner.
Look at all these great people I'm going to meet.
And then if I have the energy, then I say, well, I know everyone, But you don't know each other.
And here's some of the ways I see some of you overlapping.
So I'll say this one plays the trombone.
This one plays the saxophone.
You both play wind instruments.
Then you both play jazz.
This one is a physicist. This one is a chemist. You are both scientists, blah, blah, blah.
So I will do that and and share it in the email.
And then I recently do that in Washington, D .C.
And I had a bunch of people working for government, a bunch of people in private practice and military people, etcetera.
One of the guys got so excited by this, he said, Yeah, you, you mentioned how two or three people are all connected even though they've never met each other.
I bet you I can figure out how I'm connected to every single person here.
And he did one of these like Kevin Bacon six degree of separation and blew our mind.
He's like, and I've done this work.
And I've worked with the moonshot and this one's working with the moonshot in the White House.
And this one's a cancer survivor.
and she's also an executive coach and Ruth as an executive coach and I'm part 100.
It was wild! So those small dinners are very, very helpful and i do them regularly and people like that because they often don't know people outside their own industry.
Now, I had a dinner I organized in New York and there are actually two Olympians and one Paralympian there, plus some other people.
Most Olympians don't know people outside their own sport.
Wow. And they don't know people outside their own Olympics.
Right. So if somebody competed in the Olympics in the 90s, and somebody in 2020, they wouldn't know each other.
So getting them together was kind of cool.
And do you know what it's like being the only one without an Olympic medal?
But as one of them said to me, we each have our own Olympics.
So, there you go. Oh, my gosh.
Another tip. Yeah. I mean, this is just we'll call this the tweet episode.
Ruth just speaks in viral tweets.
This is so good. This is so good.
I've gotten so many things for myself, I almost forgot that I was doing a podcast. So I really appreciate this.
And for the listeners, just again, before you go remind them about your books, and then also how they can get in touch. Absolutely.
So my name again is Ruth Gotian, R -u -t -h -g -o -t -i -a -n.
My website is just my name, Ruth Gotian.
All the social media, you can look on LinkedIn.
I offer so many tips there almost on a daily basis, and sometimes articles that convert the science into lay terms with actionable tips.
So I have a column in Forbes and Psychology Today, and often write about these things also Harvard Business Review and Fast Company.
So lots there for you to check out.
The books are called the one on the High Achievers is called The Success Factor.
And the new book is called Financial Times Guide to Mentoring.
And for the basketball fans out there, Steve Kerr, the coach of the Golden State Warriors and Team USA wrote the forward to the book.
And I will tell you, it is so exceptional that I did not have to change a single word. Wow.
Wow. That is something.
So he's good at not just basketball.
You're not just basketball.
This is great. Ruth, always a pleasure, my friend.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
My pleasure. Congratulations.
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The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better.
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Again, thank you for joining the team, we're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode.
I'll catch you later.
