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Welcome to this Negotiation Masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone.
And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
My business model from the beginning has not been selling you a home.
My business model is to be your agent for life.
And I can't do that if I don't put your needs first and your goals first and just do what's best for you.
And then because we don't do I actually personally don't do any paid advertising right now, it's through word of mouth.
And that's very, very powerful.
What my clients have to say about their experience with me is going to be echoed throughout this community because again, I'm in a niche market where everybody knows everybody else.
So taking care of your clients is, you know, extremely critical.
And so.
Candice, thanks for joining us today.
Hi Kwame, thanks for having me.
It is my pleasure.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
It's funny because a little bit about myself is that I do not like public speaking but always surprises, I think, my friends family SOI, anybody that I'm in small groups with, because think I do present myself as very extroverted.
And then if you follow me on social media, you know I'm on like video doing different things, but actually doing public speaking makes me nervous.
So I think it makes me nervous because, like talking about myself, like you know, knowing that the intro to this discussion is like who's Candace.
Like talk about her.
That always makes me go, oh, they're going to talk about me for a second.
So yes, I'm Candace Hall.
I'm with the Thomas Riddle Real Estate Group at New Albany Realty.
That is the number one brokerage in New Albany, the number one team with the number one brokerage in New Albany.
So we're super proud of that.
We've been in business for over 25 years and we've helped over 2000 clients find home.
And we also just broke the billion dollar mark, which is super exciting for our team.
So yeah, I'm the top producing agent in this marketplace.
And a little bit is that I actually entered the, and most people don't even know this.
So I'm like spilling the tea here.
So I actually got started like full time, So I entered the market at an extremely competitive time, which actually I think was a blessing in disguise, because I didn't have any like prior conceptions or ideas about the market, have any bad habits based on a market that was no longer relevant.
And I actually think that that was really tough for a lot of agents to deal with, because they were like well, it's always been this way.
And I'm accustomed to listing homes at X price and having this result.
I just really had to be very studious and be a sponge and understand the market that I was in.
And, of course, being just extremely competitive in general.
I think really helped me because I was like this is like a sporting event.
And I was treating and I do still treat real estate as if it's a sport.
And my kind of idea is that I'm going to put in the time.
I'm going to put in the time that other people just aren't willing to do.
So and if you think about it like a sport, I want to be the last person to leave the gym.
I'm going to be the last person making that phone call on that negotiation because I just want to go the extra mile.
But anyways.
So yeah, so I joined the second half of 2021 and I led my team in sales or closings for clients that last quarter.
And that was pretty cool because you know I entered a market that was very competitive with some really great top producing agents.
And there was kind of a question where everybody was looking at me like, what's going on?
Like, you know, is this like beginner's luck?
Like is this going to?
You know kind of like you know trickle out or you know a top producing agent, a very niche market.
And that's great.
You know, I we just continue to work extremely hard to put my clients in a position for success and a market that's very, very competitive.
And in order to do that, you have got to figure out how to win in multiple offer situations.
If you cannot do that, as an agent you won't be successful and your clients are not going to find homes in the marketplace that we're in, which is a tough reality, but it's the reality.
Absolutely.
And it's really interesting too, because there are all sorts of different businesses and backgrounds that are represented in our audience.
But we can all understand what it means to be in a competitive market.
But when it comes to real estate in particular and the circumstance regarding multiple offers, that's pretty nuanced.
So can you give us just a general overview of what that looks like before we actually get into the negotiation skills and strategies?
Yeah.
So we're living in a state that there are more buyers than there are homes that are on the market.
So we are facing an inventory shortage and a housing shortage in many parts of the United States, but especially in Central Ohio.
And that's not something that's going to be corrected anytime soon.
And I'll just make a little plug there that people that are saying I'm going to wait to buy shouldn't.
Obviously, what's most important is that you find, you know, the home that you're looking for and that you're happy with.
But waiting will cost you because it's a simple, you know principle of supply and demand.
So what happens in these scenarios is that a home will come to market and that home will not have just one interested buyer.
They'll have two, three, four, five, six, you know, there are homes that receive 15 offers.
And, as a buyer, you need to understand and be working with an agent who truly, truly is an expert in your marketplace, so that they can set expectations for you, but then also so that they can position your offer for success.
And it's not always, you know, the dollar amount.
That's very important to understand because my clients, our offers are often accepted over clients excuse me other offers that had a higher dollar amount.
And I guess we can get into that a bit later about exactly what I'm doing to make sure that my clients are successful and our offers are accepted.
But yeah, so we're in bidding wars, essentially.
And I do think that it's a really great kind of takeaway for anybody who enjoys negotiations, because it's understanding how to position yourself for success if you want something that somebody else wants.
And you're going to be in situations like that for negotiations.
It's not always just You have a conflict and it's you versus them.
It could be you have, this is the goal and there are two people jockeying for that goal, three people jockeying for that goal.
And I often, always like go to kind of like sports because I feel like I'm like in this kind of competitive race to accomplish a goal.
Absolutely.
And I think the analogy it works because we are, it's multiple people competing over scarce resources.
And then that's when the competitive nature starts to come in.
And a lot of times that can cause a lot of emotionality.
And that's why it's so important to have an expert on your side who can help you guide your strategy and your approach.
And when I think about this multiple offer situation, I'm thinking about the expectation setting for clients.
You mentioned that.
So managing their expectations.
And then, after you manage those expectations, creating a competent offer that's actually competitive.
And then we get into the negotiation side.
Can you speak first to the challenge of managing client expectations in these markets?
Absolutely.
It's funny because one of the things I was thinking about is gaining influence.
And my ability to gain influence actually starts with being recognized as an expert in the market in which I'm selling homes.
So my clients?
They aren't even my clients, just people follow me on social media that live in the community.
And they start to think of Candice All Realtor as the realtor you're going to go to to buy or sell a home, if you need to, in New Albany.
So I'm already starting to gain that influence very early on.
Oftentimes I'm being connected with somebody through social media, but very oftentimes it's through somebody else in the community or a referral.
And then they've seen my work.
They see what I do.
They see that I'm winning for my clients in this marketplace.
They see the caliber of homes that I'm selling.
And that already kind of sets the foundation of some trust.
Of course.
I think the biggest thing in these scenarios is The clients want to know that they're working for somebody who has their best interests at heart.
My business model from the beginning has not been selling you a home.
My business model is to be your agent for life.
And I can't do that if I don't put your needs first and your goals first and just do what's best for you.
And then because we don't do I actually personally don't do any paid advertising right now, it's through word of mouth.
And that's very, very powerful.
What my clients have to say about their experience with me is going to be echoed throughout this community because again, I'm in a niche market where everybody knows everybody else.
So taking care of your clients is, you know, extremely critical.
And so I have that foundation of trust and they can feel it.
They can sense it.
One of the things too, when I'm thinking about, you know, being on a podcast talking about sales and negotiations, my opinion is that authenticity is is the most important thing.
People are going to sense if you're trying to pull one over on them or be salesy with them.
You have to be of service to the client and find out what they need and how your skillset is going to help them achieve that goal.
What I love about this is that we are right down to the fundamentals.
We're talking about building trust and being authentic.
And I think a lot of folks who are in business trying to negotiate, they're trying to find these one-liners, these zingers, these little things that they can say and do.
But those persuasive endeavors will fail if you don't have a foundational level of trust.
And a lot of times they might say that these negotiation strategies or expectation management strategies with their clients are not working.
But I think if you rewind the tape and go all the way to the beginning of the relationship and you realize the problem isn't the strategies that you're using down the road, the problem is the fact that you don't have a strong relationship that is built on trust.
And so if You've been able to mobilize that in a way that has led to financial success and you've been able to close these big deals,
But again, it starts with trust.
So what is it that you're able to do early on in your relationship with the clients?
That really starts the ball rolling of positivity when it comes to building trust.
I think just getting to know them and understanding what their family needs.
So, you know, asking questions and being present and just coming from a position of service.
That's so important.
And my background in hospitality, I think, has really helped me there.
And it's just something you can feel when you're in interaction with somebody.
If my clients are getting the sense that I genuinely want what's best for them.
I had a phone call with somebody yesterday and they're talking about selling their home and they're in a situation where do they sell it now versus do they sell it next year.
Their instinct, I'm sure, is that I'm going to tell them to sell it now.
Because that's what's best for the salesperson in a situation.
But I always table that.
I don't care what's best for me ever.
I care what's best for that client.
Because if the client picks up on that, they're going to feel it.
They're going to know.
And if I don't do what's best for them and guide them with that genuine, you know truthful, solid advice?
They're not going to trust me.
So it was funny because I was just like talking to them yesterday.
She said well, we could maybe say well, if you could sell next year, I think your home value will go up.
I think that you'll probably be able to sell your house for even more.
So let's work through like what fits best for you and your family right now.
Let me connect you with a local lender so you can get all the information that you need.
And that was it.
I established a relationship and somebody who trusts me and knew that I wasn't going to.
You know, right now it's the best time to sell and then tell them some reason why they shouldn't wait until next year.
But I guarantee you, if that person waits until next year, they're going to tell their friend or family member how I took care of them and I'm trustworthy.
And they're going to be thinking of me when real estate is on the top of mind for them, because it's just something that, as human beings, like innately, we know when somebody is trustworthy and worth referring our friends and family to.
When you think about the trust equation, one of the things that pulls away from the level of trust you have with somebody else is how self-interested you are.
So if they look at you and they say, oh, she is all for herself.
That's the primary focus.
It's going to diminish the levels of trust.
And so breaking those patterns and not talking about the money first actually showing that you care about the person and building that relationship.
It's a great strategy for building trust, but it's rooted in authenticity and true caring for the other person.
You can't really fake this.
You have to genuinely care.
And once you get them to that position where you have that level of trust, now let's say we're getting to this negotiation.
Let's say they look at a house, they love this house, but it is a very nice house and multiple offers are coming in and they want to put in a bid that you disagree with.
Now, when it comes to having that negotiation with your client, how do you work through that with them to position yourself to put forward the best offer?
Yeah, so there are many times where I tell clients.
So, for example, if a house hits the market, we go see it.
They like it.
Let's say the house listed for 500.
I'm very early on setting the expectation, when they're viewing the property, what I think the property is going to sell for.
I'm saying hey, I want you to know the lens in which you should be viewing this home is that this is actually a 550 to 575 home.
So that when they're in the house and as they're getting, you know just like we love it they need to remove that sticker.
And then it's also just education.
Just letting them know that the most effective strategy in this marketplace is to conservatively list a home to elicit multiple offers.
And I tell them hey, as a listing agent, this is what I would do for my clients to elicit multiple offers.
And this is how it's done.
This is the psychology behind this approach and the current marketplace and why it works.
Because what happens when you conservatively list a property?
So this is just, I guess, a nugget for any listing agents or anybody who's thinking about wanting to become a listing agent.
Conservatively listing that home will ensure that you receive an offer early on.
The biggest risk that a home has that comes to market in our current marketplace is the risk of receiving a stigma because there's no offer the first weekend on.
If that happens, the market goes There's something wrong with that house.
So to ensure that that doesn't happen to the listing, you conservatively price it.
So the listing agent, what I'm doing is I'm working to tease that first offer out.
Once I get the first offer, now I have market validation.
Now everybody else that's interested in that home says, I knew it.
I knew that home was a great home.
And then that's how you then create this bidding war.
So it's funny because as a listing agent, I'm creating the bidding war.
I know what to do.
I know what strategies to put in place.
And then when I'm representing the buyers, I take that and I flip it on its head, right?
So I am not the first offer in the door.
If my client says I want to make an offer, I say, great.
There's a lot happening, but what I'm really enjoying is the process, the strategy that you're bringing to this too.
Because what I see a lot of people do is, when it comes to managing expectations, they wait until there is a divergence of those expectations.
That is very clear and it almost boils into a conflict, or it is a conflict.
And then they have to work They're playing from behind.
But what you said that was really insightful is you start setting the expectation as soon as you start working with the clients.
So as soon as you establish that rapport, you build that trust and then you start to look at these houses.
And then, as you're going through these houses and they're starting to fall in love with the houses, you're saying hey listen, I know this is what the list price is, but you need to be prepared.
If you want to compete for this, it might have to go higher, just because we're in that type of market.
And so that helps you to make that future conversation a lot easier, because you've done a lot of the work.
And I love what you talked about when you were mentioning the interaction with the other side too because again, it starts off with the same thing building trust and rapport.
The person feels a lot more psychologically safe with you.
They feel more open to being vulnerable and sharing information because they know you're not the kind of person who's going to take advantage of them inappropriately, and you are competent and credible and you're actually somebody who they would actually want to work with.
This is a masterclass, because what we're doing is we are pre-negotiating all of these things, so you don't run into a situation where the conversation is much more difficult than it needs to be.
That is so, so true.
I mean, it's and again, like people don't even necessarily understand what I do with my job.
Right.
They just see like you sell a house and you write an offer for your clients.
No, I am in negotiation wars.
And the thing about me that has set me apart just to make it clear is.
I don't lose.
I don't wanna lose.
I won't lose if my client wants the house.
I'm gonna do, I'm gonna pull all the strings.
Ultimately, it's going to be up to them, but I'm gonna do every single thing that I can to make sure that they're successful.
And I will also say the times in which, where I'm in a multiple offer situation and my client doesn't come out on top, it's because I've said hey, this is what it's gonna take to win.
And they say, I'm not comfortable with that.
I say, okay, let's, let's go with the offer that you have.
And so we still write it out.
They make the offer that they feel comfortable with.
And what it does is they still may, very much still, trust me, but they still need to experience it in the marketplace.
And then they'll say, aha, like I get it now.
Like I went through that.
Candice told me everything that was going to happen.
And even though I trusted her, I just wasn't ready, you know, and I thought maybe I could get this deal at this price.
And now I've actually experienced this.
And that is very powerful for me as an agent.
I tell the agents that are on my team like That's a part of like building the trust with the client is going through that process with them and understanding that you know in the long run it's still going to serve the client and you haven't broken that trust.
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Oh, this is good because what you're doing here is you're continuing to build trust through respect.
You're respecting them as an adult to make an adult decision.
And you're saying, hey, this is what I think might occur.
It's your decision.
If you want me to do this, I'm going to do this.
I'm going to give you the information that you need to make an informed decision.
And then what you said is you allow them to experience it in the marketplace, because you can anticipate what's going to happen, because you have a lot of experience in the marketplace.
But for most people, it is a purchase that they only make once or a few times in their life.
So you're going to have a lot more experience.
And so you're going to say, hey, listen, I'm going to stick with you.
If this is what you want to do, let's do that.
And that's another mode of persuasion.
Instead of doing the other thing, trying to almost patronize them by preventing them from making this decision.
And now you break trust and it makes it much more difficult for you to have a good working, long-term relationship.
Yes.
And I think that's something that I've seen agents not understand.
This is what I think will happen.
But ultimately, like you're making the decision.
It's up to you.
That's so critical that you're not frustrated with them because they're not doing what you're telling them as the expert.
Ultimately, there are certain people that they just conceptually don't want to pay above list price for a home.
So what happens in those scenarios is you need, I even set the expectation.
Okay, that's great.
What we're going to need is we're going to need to adjust, maybe your expectations for what it is you want to buy.
We probably need to look at homes that have made it through the first weekend on the market.
Maybe need some cosmetic updates.
Those are probably the homes.
And so then we shift.
So, based on what the client needs, based on their expectations, there are certainly, like I said, there are people that just don't want to be in bidding wars, don't want to pay above what the current price is.
And you just have to be able to pivot.
But serving your client and making sure that you never, ever break their trust is the only thing that's going to lead to you being successful in this market.
I love this.
This is great.
And now Candice, with the time we have left, I think this would be a great opportunity to talk about the challenge, or maybe perceived challenge, of negotiating commissions, because now we're living in the world after that big decision.
And there are a lot of people who are concerned, confused and not really sure what to do.
So for the listeners who might not be familiar, can you just give an overview of what happened and then talk about your strategy for handling?
Yeah.
So I guess I just want to like disclaimer here.
I'm not the expert.
Frankly, I haven't spent much time following this at all.
And it's because of my opinion on the matter.
And I'll share with you what my genuine opinion is.
I think there was a settlement that was proposed.
I don't believe that that's been ruled on.
So technically, I don't think that there's any decision that has been made final.
But ultimately there was an argument, I think, that perhaps commissions were not being negotiable for consumers.
I disagree.
I certainly have never entered into a situation working with a client that didn't believe that my commission was negotiable, because I've been negotiating my commission since I've started as an agent.
There are buyers that want to negotiate the commission that I paid.
Of course, anytime I'm at a listing interview or appointment, my commission is discussed.
So my opinion on the matter is there's kind of like this overarching idea that commissions weren't negotiable before and now they're going to be negotiable.
And my opinion, the only thing that's going to change is going to probably be the way in which commissions are disclosed.
So there's going to be extra disclosure disclosure everywhere about who's getting the commission and what they're getting.
The other thing that people I think need to remember is that you've always been able to sell your home for sale by owner.
There are discount brokerages that have been in the marketplace for some time, that are just known as a discount brokerage.
That will list your home for 1.
I'll tell you that that exists in Central Ohio.
Everyone, I'm sure knows that there's some place that you can list your home for very little commission.
Why aren't those the number one teams?
Why is that not my competition?
That's not my competition because what I experienced deliver my clients is valuable.
The people that are in our community, the people that are in our marketplace that truly understand real estate, understand that they need an expert.
Also, even as an agent, I need to be informed about how the market's changing weekend by weekend.
It's just, you know, you truly need an expert.
And then the other thing I was I just you know, I think I mentioned this to Kwame before our conversation was that, as a listing agent, if I personally listed my home for sale, there's no question that I would not offer 3 to the buyer's agent.
The reason why I want to offer 3 to the buyer's agent is because I want to highly incentivize any and everyone to work on my behalf to market that home to as many people as possible.
And so when you take that away and you decide how much you're going to pay someone, there aren't a lot of buyer's agents that would necessarily be willing to work for free or work for very little, based on the amount of time and hours that they have to take away from their family to make sure that a buyer has a home.
So that's just not something that I would do.
I will tell you my opinion that there are times when I say, why is that house still on the market?
And I'll look at the remarks.
It's because, in my opinion, they're offering 1 to the buyer's agent or they're offering nothing to the buyer's agent.
You can't just demand that people work for you for free.
You know, you do need to pay people for the services that they provide.
So, yeah, I just think that that's always been an option in the marketplace.
And there is plenty of research that also supports the difference between listing your home for sale by owner or at a discount brokerage and the amount of money that a very seasoned, talented skilled agent is going to be able to get you for your home.
And it's more.
This is a great breakdown because it it kind of shifts the perspective from panic to just another simple negotiation that we have every single day.
And what's really great about this is that we're focusing on the incentives.
Incentives drive behavior, and so you might say, all right, i want to just lower everybody's commission to almost nothing so i can take more for myself.
Well, We don't think about what behavior we are incentivizing that, because then it makes it more like less likely for people to want to work with you or even make offers onto that house.
And I think that's an element of this that people are not really appreciating fully.
And then also just in the way that you responded.
There was confidence in the way that you responded because you're confident in the value that you provide.
And if you can just really have that confidence and speak confidently in that way and deliver what you just said, in the same way, people would say oh well, I did not think about that at all.
I was looking at it only through one lens and didn't consider the consequences.
Yeah, I'm good where we are.
And then the other thing too.
We have to remember that sometimes the worst thing outcome for a negotiation is a sealed deal that never should have been done.
And sometimes you find yourself saying yes to things you never should have said yes to.
So if you're a realtor and you don't feel comfortable with this, just say I'm not the person for you.
Best of luck.
And if you change your mind, come back to me.
And I think that delivers a lot of confidence as well.
Yeah, that's so true.
I mean there are times where yeah, I go into listing appointments and I'm willing to lose that deal lose that.
You know I'm obviously.
I want to work hard for that client and tell them everything that I think I'm going to be able to do for them and how my skillset's going to leverage their home and how I think that I'm going to sell their home for the most that it could possibly be sold for.
It's speaking to the records that I've broken and the communities that I've sold homes in.
And if they ultimately, if it comes down to them, for who's willing to do it for less money?
I'm probably not the agent for you, because I know how much time and effort and the value that I bring to the table.
And I don't need to discount that, you know, it's time and so much time away from my family.
It's so funny.
My son's always like, okay, You're always working.
You're always on your phone.
And so that's valuable.
It's important to me that I'm compensated for my time and I know what I have to bring to the table.
But, as you know, in these scenarios you certainly, as an agent, better be prepared to explain the value that you bring to the table, so that people are educated and they understand that, why it is that they need you.
I had, this is a perfect example.
This was perfect.
My client, I have, you know, a friend in the community.
She connected me with her dad who wants to buy a home, and I showed them a property started, you know, had a meeting with them, showed them a property, just my usual kind of going through the, you know, initial introductions and beginnings of working with a client.
And she was on a group text and she said, you know, that her dad was interested in a new build.
And there are plenty of people who understand that in a new situation you can usually work with the sales consultant or sales rep for that community.
And you could.
And she asked me, you know, my dad wanted to know why we would need your help in this scenario.
And I said hey, I think you could probably get by with not having an agent work for you in this scenario, assuming everything goes well.
Assuming everything goes well, it's probably okay.
The risk that you take is that everything doesn't go well and you don't have somebody that's able to negotiate on your behalf and look out for your best interest, because you haven't gone through this before.
So it's almost like when you hire an attorney, like, you could do it.
You can do anything without representation, but you have to understand the level of risk that you have there.
So it's funny because I said, assuming everything goes well, you could absolutely do it without me.
I think you need an agent if things don't go well, if things aren't getting done on time, if the contract's not being followed, if you go to the inspection and things weren't done properly.
You need someone in those scenarios.
That's That's why I think you should consider working with an agent.
And she texted me back.
She said, great.
My dad says we need you.
Thank you so much.
But just they needed to understand, like why would we, you know, have you involved in this scenario?
So yeah, you certainly have to be able to understand what it is you how you're going to be able to serve your clients.
But no, I'm not worried.
I think you know it is, I want to say, like clickbait, but people that don't work in this industry and don't understand it.
Just it's this news, this what's like on the radar this week.
Right.
So I think that after everything goes into place, we're all going to see that this was always an option, always an option.
But I think the argument in this scenario was additional disclosures perhaps needs to occur, so that it's just very in your face where the commissions are going, who's paying them, how it works.
Love it.
No, this is great.
This is great.
And it reminds me of one of my favorite sayings in law.
They say the person who represents themselves has a fool for an attorney.
And so, I mean, I'm a business owner.
A&I is a business.
I have lawyers who work for me, right?
That's hilarious.
I'm not going to do my own stuff.
We're going to miss things.
We're too close to it.
We don't have the right perspective.
And then even in now, bringing it back to what you said here, it reminds me of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
So a lot of times, the people with the most confidence are the people who have the least knowledge, because they don't know enough to understand how challenging it is.
And so people might say, okay, I can handle this.
And then they start trying to handle it and they very quickly realize I cannot, I cannot handle this, especially when you consider everything else that is happening in their lives.
So I think that is a great response.
And I'm just thinking about this as a great piece of like coursework and literature for agents who are trying to learn how to negotiate and just get better deals but also have better relationships with their clients too.
So Candice, I really appreciate you coming on the show.
And before you go, can you remind the listeners about you and how to get in touch?
Yeah.
Well, first of all, thank you, Kwame.
This has been so enjoyable for me.
It's not every day that I get to sit down and actually talk about what goes on behind the scenes.
My clients see me in that face-to-face interaction.
They see me closing deals, but they're.
They don't know how much time I actually spend on the back end building rapport and working on relationships and doing all these things to make sure they get their dream home when they decide that they want it.
So thanks again.
So I'm Candice Hall.
I'm with the Thomas Riddle Real Estate Group and New Albany Realty.
If you want to get in touch with me, follow me on Instagram at Candice Hall Realtor.
Hopefully my spelling is somewhere on here, but it's K-A-N-D-I-S.
I spell my name a little bit differently, but we'd love to help you.
And if you're an agent that's struggling in this market, definitely, you know, connect.
And you know it's always fun to talk about negotiations and how we can get together and leverage the skill set that we provide our clients.
Just, you know, keep bringing our industry forward.
This was really, really great.
Really appreciate you coming on the show today.
Thanks, Kwame.
That was the first part of today's masterclass.
Up.
Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.
Let's keep it rolling.
It all depends on the person.
Like, who are you speaking with?
Some people I could instantly have a candid conversation with like bro, your house isn't worth 2700.
Like, your house is worth $2,200.
Other people might be a lot more sensitive.
Maybe they're super emotionally attached to their house.
Maybe they don't want to hear no answers.
Maybe they just want to hear yes.
And so you got to you're like a therapist.
You're like a psychologist.
Like you're working all these different spheres to figure out who am I working with?
How can I communicate with them effectively?
And how can we arrive at the conclusion that helps them, helps us, helps everyone?
Nico, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me, Kwame.
Yeah, it is our pleasure, my friend.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I do real estate with Maurizio Umansky.
I work at the agency here in Los Angeles.
Our office is in Beverly Hills.
So I'm a real estate broker who help clients buy and sell real estate.
And obviously negotiation is a big part of what I do.
So me and Kwame actually met at one of the agency's seminars.
If you haven't seen Kwame speak publicly, he's absolutely incredible.
I was captivated and we just became fast friends.
And now whenever he's in LA, we hang out and he destroys me in chess.
So that's our relationship.
I love it, man.
Listen, I wasn't going to say it, but you said it.
So yes, listen, this is great.
Nico and I, we vibed immediately.
So I had a great time with the agency events in Austin, Texas.
It was a great keynote.
I tell you, your team, the atmosphere that you all were able to create at that event, I mean, it was just indicative of the cool culture that you've put together.
So it must be cool being part of that team because you started...
Yeah, so I started last year and it's been the worst time that you could possibly start in real estate.
So this is equivalent to forget 2008.
That was a better market because you had people foreclosing.
It was a sadder time, but you had people foreclosing on their properties.
People were kind of forced to sell.
There were deals to be had, so people were buying.
There was still transactions, but if you look back at transaction volume, this is the lowest it's been, so for us to be on par with that, this is one of the worst markets in history.
That being said, I'm going to discuss a little bit later about how negotiation has helped me become a better agent, and training and my constant need and desire to continue to learn and be a better agent has really fueled my business.
And a lot of people are not doing any business.
I've been able to do five transactions this year and it's all because getting out there, putting yourself out there and hustling which I know people who are tuning in to listen in on negotiation I'm sure have some business acumen.
They're looking to improve themselves.
People are listening to this podcast.
So I'm going to share some examples of how I've done that.
Hopefully you learn a little bit about the real estate market too.
I think it's a market that everyone should know about.
But, more broadly, we're going to talk about how negotiation is really a common thread.
Whether you're in real estate, whether you're selling cars, whether you're doing your day-to-day job, whether you have a nine to five, you're still negotiating.
You got to negotiate for your salary, right?
If you're There's a lot of common threads.
So you're going to get tinges of real estate, touches of real estate.
But I think more broadly, if you're tuning in, it's going to be about negotiation as well.
I love it, man.
And here's the thing, too, because your approach clearly is leading to success.
Because when you're talking about transactions Nico, we really have to paint the picture of what type of deals that we're talking about.
Because I'm out in Columbus, Ohio.
The market is a little bit different.
You're out there in Beverly Hills, the property value is a little bit different.
So can you paint a picture to the audience of what negotiations look like in your world?
Absolutely.
So just for context, I quit a really well-paying job to get into real estate.
And at first it was because I had a great connection in the real estate world who was encouraging me to make the leap.
But, Like you said, you're in a state where the property values are much less than Los Angeles California, which is one of the main cities in the United States.
Slash the world.
So just for context, my first deal was a $3 million house.
Now, when you break down the commissions on that, A buyer's agent takes home minus splits and all that stuff, but they're taking home two and a half percent of that transaction.
So if you do some simple math, it made a lot of sense to get into real estate.
So $3 million properties in Los Angeles are pretty standard.
You got to think, if you're going to get an entry level house in LA, to get something that's relatively nice at three bedroom, two bath with 1800 square feet in a decent neighborhood.
You're looking at like one and a half to $2 million.
So most people who are my age, who I'm 30 and they're you know, we're just entering the housing market and we're getting our first place.
A lot of people are getting a one bedroom condo in an older building for $600,000.
So it's just crazy.
And when you look at the Midwest, you're getting a three bedroom, three bath house, 2500 square feet, for like 200K.
It's crazy.
So, as an agent, since we get a fee off of whatever we sell, it makes a lot of sense to be in a market that has higher values.
That being said.
There's a lot of competition.
With a lot of competition, it's really important to differentiate yourself.
I wear, and this is no joke.
I wear a full cowboy outfit out sometimes just to get conversational flow.
I'll get five conversations I've calculated per day that I wear a cowboy outfit.
Just, oh, where are you from?
Where'd you wear that?
And I used to live in the Midwest.
So it's not too far off to be wearing a cowboy outfit, but it's a conversation starter.
And then you start with, yeah, where do you live?
Oh, I live in West Hollywood.
Okay, West Hollywood.
You like West Hollywood?
Yeah, it's cool.
Oh, where would you live if you didn't live in West Hollywood?
I'd live probably Long Beach.
I don't really like LA that much.
Oh, do you own in West Hollywood?
Are you renting?
I rent, but I'm probably looking to own a space.
Well, I'm a real estate agent.
I'm going to give you my card.
If you have any questions, let me know.
I work with that area.
So The cowboy hat, although it's kind of crazy and it's nuts, it works.
You have to just figure out what works for you and go with that.
For me, I'm like, I'm a confident person.
I'm fully cool with who I am, whatever I want to do.
I'm my own best friend slash number one advocate.
So you have an idea, execute it.
Don't be afraid to execute it and move forward.
So That's a little, just a little background on how I think about real estate and life.
And in LA, when the competition is so thick, it's not like I could just wear whatever I want and blend in and hang at home.
Like I have to make the effort to go out.
I have to make the effort to put myself in places where I will get those victories and those wins.
And a lot of it, too, is who you know, connecting with your sphere.
People do business and sales in different ways.
There's cold calling, door knocking, which are all great methods, and methods that I probably will end up doing more of as time goes on.
But so far for me, it's been totally interpersonal.
I grew up in Los Angeles so I know a lot of people here and just connecting with them and putting the word out there has been really helpful for me to spark my business.
So listeners, you're seeing why I love talking to Nico.
You're just dropping all sorts of gems and just passing by.
We're going to hone in on some of these, because this is I love talking to folks who are in the real estate space, especially in LA and New York, because the environment is so competitive, because we don't just have the negotiation expertise that's required to close these deals.
The marketing and sales at the front end is so important because you have to stand out.
It's so incredibly competitive.
And so you have to get people's attention first, demonstrate that credibility and then make it clear that hey, I'm an option for you, without pushing too hard.
And how do you balance that when it comes to the competitive ecosystem you find yourself in?
Because that in itself is a negotiation, too.
Absolutely.
So the cowboy hat's great.
But if you don't know shit about real estate and pardon me cussing, I know your editor is going to have to beep it out.
If you don't know anything about real estate, the cowboy hat doesn't matter.
So you need something to qualify yourself.
All right.
So the qualifier, you could wear a SpongeBob outfit.
It really doesn't matter.
But you need a qualifier.
It doesn't matter how you look.
It matters what you know.
For example, someone walks into an open house and I'm wearing my sweats and my T-shirt and all the other agents are wearing suits.
Just based off appearance alone, you're going to go with the guy who is wearing the suit.
But what's your qualifier?
This is the question that you really have to understand and know.
My qualifier is, okay, which house are they walking into?
What are the other houses in the neighborhood that look like that that are at that price?
Three bed, three bath.
Whatever that they're looking for.
What's the difference?
Okay, one, two, three main street down the street.
How is it different?
Is it a one-story, a two-story?
If an older couple walks into my house and I'm wearing sweats and I don't look qualified, what am I doing to qualify myself?
So they walk in and I say, hey, how are you doing?
Oh, we're doing good.
We looked at the house.
It's not really for us.
We're looking for like a one-story because our knees are bad.
We're getting old.
Oh, did you see one, two, three main street down the way?
It's a cool house.
I didn't really like how the fireplace is positioned, but it's kind of a nice option.
You could go in.
You've got the primary on the lower story.
It's still got a pool.
It might be an option for you.
Or there's also 225 main street down the street even further.
Now the guy wearing sweats seems like the best option because, holy cow, he knows the market right.
So how are you going to qualify yourself?
The other way to qualify yourself is working for a reputable brokerage.
So when i go into a, a meeting with someone and they're thinking about listing their house with me, when i say i'm from the agency, it's one of the most prestigious brokerages in the world.
Now there are other brokerages that don't have that same level of expertise.
You may hear a name and say i don't know if i trust the brand right, so you don't know if you really trust it.
So The agency is trustworthy.
So what are these qualifiers?
The brand that you work for.
Your knowledge is really the most important piece, and knowing the market and knowing what's going on and giving examples of what you've done,
Now, when you're breaking into the real estate agency, it's like a plastic surgeon, right?
Do you want to be the first client for who goes in for surgery with this guy?
Absolutely not.
That is the most ludicrous thing.
It's the same thing with real estate.
So you got to find a good mentor in whatever field you're in.
You got to find a good mentor who is going to be your qualifier instantly, because you might not know all the things that you need to know.
But when you have a mentor, you could easily use slap their brand on your pitch.
So, yeah, my name's Nico.
I work directly with the CEO of the agency, Maurizio Umansky, Titan in our industry, who's closed incredible deals for the last 30 years.
And they're totally hands on with me.
So that's like instantly like, oh, wow, that's amazing.
And then bring Maurizio to the listing appointment.
Show that he's there and then get his advice as you're moving forward.
You're going to get osmosis.
You're also going to lose the deal if you don't bring in a mentor.
If you don't have a mentor, you might risk losing the deal because you don't really know.
And think about real estate.
The thing about it that I've learned the last year.
There are a million and one things that you have to know to get a transaction done.
When people say, oh, I'm not going to use an agent.
I'm like, good luck.
Like the amount of paperwork, the amount of disclosures, the knowledge that you have to have, knowing what to do and when it's I believe there's like 200 plus items that you need to execute in order to close a real estate transaction.
Think about all the people involved in that.
Think about all my inspectors that I have to call when I'm looking through a house.
Think about my transaction coordinator who's helping with all the paperwork.
What to speak of the car forms that you have to be a realtor, a California Association of Realtor forms to be a realtor, to access.
Think about the hundreds of forms that I have access to.
Are you going to have a lawyer draft all that?
I mean, you could, but you have a billion dollar organization backing all these contracts.
And they're the industry standard.
So it makes sense to go with a realtor who knows the forms, who can help you through all this stuff.
But yeah, so anyways, a bit of a tangent.
But yeah, that's a little tidbit on qualifying yourself and having the proper knowledge.
And it's not just what you wear and getting the leads.
It's also actually knowing your business.
You're absolutely right.
And just to recap for the audience, when it comes to qualifying your audience, when it comes to qualifying yourself, your three things that you go to first, showing people that you know the market, the credibility of the brand and then strategically, letting people know the connection that you have with such a powerful mentor.
And so for our listeners, if you don't know Mauricio Omansky, He's a big deal, not just in the real estate space, but also crossing over into the mainstream with Hollywood, with the Netflix as well.
So like Netflix show, I mean, you couldn't name anybody better in the industry as a mentor.
And one thing I want to home in on is showing that you know the market.
One of the mistakes that people make when they're trying to show off the fact that they know stuff is that it comes off as showing off not being helpful.
Because you're saying, all right, I'm going to listen.
I'm going to empathize.
I'm going to understand what they need.
And I'm going to give them the amount of information they need to make a better decision and educate themselves in a relevant type of way.
But other people when they're insecure, you just hear them showing off encyclopedic knowledge of random things.
It is a major turnoff.
So I love the fact that you bring that relevance in there too.
Totally.
It's way easier to be an encyclopedia of, oh yeah, this fact, that fact, because it takes you two minutes to learn the fact and it takes you two minutes to explain the fact.
It takes you three, four hours to understand the market in a neighborhood and two minutes to deliver the important information that they need.
So it's a lot harder to be helpful versus actually just knowing a fact or two or three.
And it's actually such a turnoff.
It's like, I didn't need to know about that information.
And then you've already lost them.
So yeah, there are three things that really determine the value of a transaction whether if something's sitting on the market for a long time, for example, if I have a listing there are three things that really determine whether or not it's going to move.
Okay.
The first thing is the agent is your agent's taking calls of clients that are coming in.
And I've seen scenarios where, no, they're not taking calls.
They're not reading their emails.
And it's just the craziest thing to me that these people exist, but they do.
So they're not taking calls.
They're not reading their emails.
They're not saying, Hey, we just got a lead.
Hey, they're not doing the showings.
They're not doing their job.
That's number one.
Number two would be the marketing.
Okay.
So what are your pictures look like?
What is your listing description?
How are you putting it out there?
Are you doing social media posts?
Are you doing the, you know, are you posting on the MLS, which for us is like the Zillow for agents.
And number three is the price.
What price are you going out at?
And this is where the negotiation part of our conversation comes in.
So the price, is it too high?
Is it too low?
What does the market determine as the proper price for your property?
And what are you priced at?
Now it's kind of counterintuitive here, because a lot of how you price something is a really really, really important piece of the puzzle on whether a piece of real estate sells or not.
And when you think about the price, obviously both the listing agent and the person selling their house want to get the highest possible price for your house, right?
I get paid more if I sell the house for more.
My client gets paid more if we sell the house for more.
So we're both on the same page, immediately that we wanna sell the house for the highest price possible.
So now how do we arrive at that number?
A lot of sellers think their house is way more valuable than it actually is.
It's a natural thing to think that they have the best house in the neighborhood.
I don't know if it's an ego thing or what, But sometimes I say Hey, what do you think your home's worth?
And they'll say, Oh, I think it's 2.7 million.
I'm going, this house is not selling for over two, two and the best day on earth.
You know what I mean?
So they don't really know.
But what happens is then the big issue with someone who thinks that their house is expensive and is attached to that idea.
First of all, it's unrealistic.
But, more importantly, when you list a house, when I list a house and it's for sale And I go on the market at 27 when it's actually valued at 22,
And we get zero activity that first week.
We get zero activity the second week.
Third, it's sitting there.
And you know what happens when it sits there?
It racks up days on market.
And if you know anything about sales, scarcity... creates demand.
When you have something that has sat there with no scarcity, no interest, no nothing, what does it do?
You're already way priced out of the market.
When you reduce your price, your days on market stays the same and they're thinking what's wrong with this house?
And it kills interest.
Now, if you underprice it, let's say your price, and this is, by the way, full disclosure.
This is the LA market because it's so competitive.
If you price that 22 million valued house at, let's say, 19 million, you're going to have 70 people come to your first open house.
You're probably going to have five to 10 offers on the house and you're going to have leverage to say hey, Bob offered us 21 million.
And we have three other people who have verbally said that they're going to be offering.
And I've let them know that we're already at 2.1 million.
At this point, the 70 people who have walked through the house have emotional buy-in on the house.
And now the price becomes irrelevant.
Now it becomes this kind of bidding war thing.
I hate to use that word, but it becomes almost like a bidding war, right?
Where everyone's like attached to the house now and they want to win this house.
So It's a really tough market to be in in LA because of this, and agents will intentionally price the house a bit lower than the actual value to get a massive amount of interest.
It helps offload the property quickly.
And you're getting you're able to leverage different offers against each other.
So it's an interesting thing.
And this is where, like, I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts on this, but I'll let you go ahead.
And yeah, if you have any questions for me, well, I'm just going.
I'm just going.
So this is so good.
You just wound up the Kwame negotiation doll.
I love this because the negotiation starts off with the pricing strategy.
But even before we get to the pricing strategy, we have oftentimes the tougher negotiation that you have with your own client for what the price should be.
Because there's a difference between you, as a real estate professional, knowing how you should price things and you, as a real estate professional, successfully persuading your client to post the house at the right price.
And so in psychology, this is called the endowment effect.
So once you own something, you value it higher.
And so every year that somebody spends in the house, they're investing more emotionality into it.
And that price point goes up and up and up.
So if the same house belonged to somebody else, they would say this is a $2.2 million house.
But if that same house belongs to them, this is like $2.7 because of the emotional tax.
Exactly.
So that's one of the tough negotiations.
Then let's say we actually get it down on the market for something that is too high, when we don't get the appropriate buzz.
Really what this is is this lack of the scarcity principle is not acting in our favor, but even more so than that, it's social proof, which is the wisdom of the crowds.
What do the crowds say?
Crowds are saying something's wrong with this house.
And so they're not going to investigate further.
That's the thing.
It is an emotional conclusion that they come to.
Everybody is saying no to this house.
It's been on the market for how long?
What's wrong with this house?
Pass on it.
They're not going to dig deeper.
And then on the other side, it's still ultimately an emotional decision because they're saying wow, There are how many offers on this house.
It's been on the market for like three days and it's already got offers.
Everybody wants this.
I want it too.
And again they're using that same psychology looking at the masses, seeing what they're doing, and then following suit.
Ultimately, it's still an emotional decision, but there's so many layers of persuasion we have to get to in order to arrive at that conclusion.
Absolutely.
At the end of the day, there's all these different strategies that you could use.
At the end of the day, it really comes down to what does the buyer want and what does the seller want.
That's the bottom line.
So what's really important and, like you said, the first negotiation is figuring out when you're going to list a property.
Okay, how am I going to figure out?
And kind of back into this situation where the seller becomes more realistic.
And that's a really sensitive conversation.
That's a sensitive thing because this is something that they own.
There also is a level of like mistrust with agents, right?
Like, oh, is this agent?
I don't really trust them or whatnot.
That's a barrier that you have to overcome.
But the most important thing when I'm thinking about going on a listing appointment or potentially listing a house for sale is what is the client like?
What are their goals right?
Like, I want to hear their goals.
Why are they selling this house?
Sometimes I will literally tell them not to sell their house.
You know, just yesterday I had an appointment where it was actually a dear friend of mine who lives up in the canyons in this beautiful house.
And they're concerned about fires because there are fires in Los Angeles and they've been in the house for 30 years.
They're like we want to sell it and we want to move to this neighborhood.
And i looked at the value of the house and the neighbor.
I said this is what you would get in this neighborhood and frankly i don't really see you making that move because of your lifestyle, what you like to do.
The guy likes to work on motorcycles, he's got a big garage.
It just it makes a lot of sense where he's at.
And i had to kind of understand number one what's your goal?
Having me help you?
What's your goal?
What are we arriving to right?
Another person's goal might say hey, i want to sell the house and move to hawaii.
Okay,
Well, how much is a house in Hawaii that you're looking for?
1.5 million.
Okay.
And you're looking to get what from your house?
Oh, $2.7 million.
Well, your house is worth 2.2.
We can still accomplish your goals, which is the good news, but this is the price.
So trying to understand, okay, what are their needs?
What are their wants?
And then strategically and tactfully arriving at obviously something fair.
My job and I have a fiduciary duty to my clients is to make sure that I'm honest, that I'm working within fair dealings and that they're taken care of.
So that's the utmost important quality of mine that I like to present with whoever I'm doing business with.
Because at the end of the day, it's like... your reputation.
And that's why people will come back to you.
So if you are an honest person, if you are telling people honestly a real estate agent telling me not to sell my house even though they'd make 100000 on the transaction if there's something like Oh, he actually cares about me because I do.
You know what I mean?
So and then that'll lead to referrals in the future or whatever, or when they decide to sell.
If they do for another reason, that'll lead to a potential sale.
But it's so important to be honest, to deal fairly and make sure that you take care of the people that you're working for.
Obviously in any industry, it's good to be honest.
So yeah, I think it's an interesting negotiation.
When you're going in and someone has an inflated value of their house, there's a myriad of ways that you could kind of share with them that hey, your house really isn't worth this.
So number one would be pull the comps, share recent properties that have sold in the area.
Down the street, there's a house that sold for 2.2 million, same bed bath count, same amenities.
It had a pool just like your house, same kind of finish work that you have.
There's another house that sold for 2.1 million and this had the same stuff.
The ones that are selling for 2.7 have an extra bed and bath and an extra three, 400 feet.
And they have a pool and a jacuzzi and that they have a bigger backyard and they're maybe newer finishes.
And so you kind of arrive at this value where-
It all depends on the person.
Like who are you speaking with?
Some people I could instantly have a candid conversation with like bro, your house isn't worth two seven.
Like your house is worth two, two.
Other people might be a lot more sensitive.
Maybe they're super emotionally attached to their house.
Maybe they don't want to hear the end.
They don't want to hear no.
Maybe they just want to hear yes.
And so you got to you're like a therapist.
You're like a psychologist.
Like you're working all these different spheres to figure out who am I working with?
How can I communicate with them effectively?
And how can we arrive at the conclusion that helps them, helps us, helps everyone?
Brilliant.
Because you're focusing on the outcome.
You're focusing on the outcome that is best for the client.
And again, a lot of real estate agents might understand what that outcome is, but do they have the type of relationship?
Do they have the trust?
And do they have the persuasion skills to get their client to agree with them on that ultimate conclusion?
That's the tricky part.
But I love that you started off with trust because yes, you have the fiduciary responsibility and everybody in the industry does.
The problem is that, Even if you are truly a fair dealer and being honest, that doesn't always automatically shift the perception of the other person, because they're going to say well, Nico's here trying to sell, so of course he's going to say nice things.
But one of the things that you demonstrated is beneficial when it comes to building trust is a statement against interest.
It would be in your best interest to sell whatever and put it as high as a price as possible.
But you're saying hey listen, that is not in our collective best interest, nor is it in yours, in particular because of these reasons.
And so you're building that trust and then you're letting the data decide.
Here's the information.
It is not me hating on your house that you lived in forever.
This is the market.
I wish I could get you that price.
The market says otherwise.
This is so powerful.
And then lastly, your willingness to flex.
Because after you're having these conversations, you're making a read on the people.
And for some people they need all of the detailed evidence and maybe several conversations and maybe a little bit of pain to change their perspective.
And other people, it's like, no, I'm getting a read on this person.
I can just talk straight and we can work through it.
But again, that shows your negotiation skills, because you're willing to flex and adapt based on who's in front.
Totally, totally.
No, you hit the nail on the head.
You're 100% right on.
Let me know when you're ready to get your license out here, Kwame, because you grasped it like that.
I mean, I can't wait to take you on a listing appointment.
That'll be amazing.
I appreciate it, man.
No, this is great.
And you've been dropping gems this whole episode.
And for you, because I know you're.
It's so funny because yes, technically you're starting off your career, but you're coming in here with so much experience and so much skills.
Whenever I chatted with you, it did not feel like you were new in this.
And I think it's so important to bring your fresh perspective because times have changed so much.
So bringing your mindset and your negotiation skills that are working in such a competitive environment.
I think there's so much that the listeners can get from it.
And for you, you're very active online, building up your social profile.
For the folks who want to follow you and learn more and connect.
What would you say is the best way to do that?
Instagram would probably be the best way to do it.
So my handle is at Nikoshow, N-I-K-K-O-S-H-O-W.
It really is a show.
You don't know what you're going to get.
You could get some crazy videos.
You could get some real estate related content.
Sometimes I post a video and I'm like I may have just lost a, I don't know, but I hope people work with me because I'm authentic.
It's kind of the concept of sweats at an open house but knowing your stuff, people will still want to work with you.
So yeah, please follow me on social media.
Love it.
Nico, thank you so much for coming on the show, brother.
Really appreciate it.
You're the man.
Thanks for having me, Kwame.
You're the best.
Take care.
You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next, a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge, so you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in.
Mike, thanks for joining us today.
My pleasure.
Super excited to be here.
Yeah, man, I am excited to have you.
So how would you get us started?
By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do, sure?
So again, mike capella, i lead a division of cbre which includes our business in michigan ohio, kentucky and pittsburgh, in addition to leading our business in in columbus.
If you don't know, cbre?
We're the global leader in commercial real estate services, so we touch everything from a commercial real estate standpoint from, you know, managing properties to helping people find and leave space And, as you can imagine, right now, with everything going on in the global economy, it's a fun and challenging time to be in commercial real estate.
Yeah, definitely.
And this interview is right on time.
And listeners, I tell you, Mike was testing my discipline and restraint because we were vibing.
And I was like, I forgot we're here for a podcast.
Save it for the show.
Yeah.
I'm excited because, you know, we have over a thousand episodes and we're hitting on something that we haven't touched yet, which is the long game.
And Mike's perspective on this is fascinating.
So how about, Mike, you just set the stage for us when we talk about negotiating the long game.
What does that mean to you?
Sure.
So I think when we think about commercial real estate, it's a long sales cycle.
So the transactions that we work on typically are going to involve multiple parties over multiple years.
And we're usually working on transactions with a smaller group of people that we're going to see over the course of a career time and time again.
So reputation and how we carry ourselves is super important.
That credibility that we bring to the table when we're making recommendations or advising our clients on negotiating strategy is really built over.
You know a career.
And so, when we think about everything, it really kind of comes down to the long game, not what about what's going to happen in a year or two?
What's going to happen over 5 10, 15 years?
Absolutely.
And now here's the thing.
So folks are going to hear this and they're going to say, of course, yeah, that makes sense.
But then when it comes to the actual practice, we often forget this fundamental truth.
So, in the moment, what makes it so hard for people to keep this in mind when they're actually in the middle of the negotiation?
Well, I think certainly you know just the emotional component of it.
You know, when we're talking about doing transactions, there's the financial side of it.
You know if the transaction goes sideways or blows up, there is risk there that this individual or company has spent a lot of time and money on that and did not necessarily get the outcome.
There's just frustration with the time that could be spent on getting to this particular point.
And then there is the perceived loss of whatever that outcome is going to be.
And that potentially could mean challenges to somebody's business.
It could be challenges to somebody not being able to achieve what they wanted.
So they start feeling those frustrations when all those things start going sideways or don't happen.
And so it's ultimately trying to find a way to keep that emotional side in check.
And I do think emotion does play a part in negotiations.
And I think understanding people's motivations in negotiations is super important.
And look, I think you can use people's emotions as leverage potentially, like we were kind of talking about.
But in the same sense, when we're advising our professionals, it's, look, you have to think long term with everything that you're doing.
Your reputation is your most important thing, given the fact that you're going to be working on transactions with these people for probably the Absolutely
And the emotions, I tell you, Mike, every time we go into this, emotions come up.
And I remember I was doing this one presentation with Sotheby's one time and I had this survey I put up.
I was like, what's the hardest part of negotiation, emotion management or negotiation strategy?
And it was 97%.
It's like this frustrating ever present force that will have a massive impact on the negotiation.
And if we don't understand how to manage it, both in ourselves and others, we're going to really struggle.
And one of the things I like about your experience is that you are managing people who are high performing negotiators.
And a lot of times you have to kind of talk them off of the ledge when those emotions start to take over.
Can you kind of paint the picture for that?
Yeah.
And it's interesting.
You know, we spend a lot of time and energy training them never to hear the word no.
And then I'm the guy that gets to come in and tell them no on something.
It's always interesting and i do at times have to ask them when we're negotiating for something like internally, you know, do they really care about the outcome or do they just want to win this conversation?
And, by the way, that disarms them so many times because ultimately, i think negotiations can be competitive.
And so, you know, for me, really trying to understand how invested in the outcome are they, do they really want to see that and why they want to see it is, is really important.
But yeah, you're right, i take more of a coaching role in everything we do with our professionals.
I'm not actively involved in their negotiations with, you know, occupiers or owners of real estate, but often they're coming to me when they're trying to think about the strategy of moving a transaction along or keeping something from potentially falling apart.
Some of the things we do just is to understand, like, are they just, you know, do they need to vent?
Because I do think one of the things that we offer is that opportunity for them just to get that steam off their chest.
And that is a helpful thing.
And that really does help keep the emotions in check because we all carry an ego around.
And when you get into these things, especially with very successful people that have gotten really incredible outcomes, and You know they do think that they have an ability that other folks don't.
And so when that ego is not recognized or bruised, it can be challenging.
And when I use the word ego, I wouldn't say that our folks have an outsized ego.
I think we all do.
I just think when you're in those complex, high pressure negotiations, one of the things you have to be really aware of is, like you know, is your ego hurting or helping you in this, in this negotiation?
Absolutely.
And when you think about building the best negotiator, there's no such thing as the best negotiator.
Just let's say an effective negotiator.
Let's think of it kind of like a recipe.
It will call for a little bit of ego.
It'll call for a little bit of competitive spirit.
But then if you add emotions to that, sometimes we accidentally dump a ton of ego into it.
And then we end up with a dish that's not that great.
And so you don't want to pull away those things, because that's part of what makes them great negotiators.
It's about balancing it.
Yeah, I think what we find when we are really high performing is that we have teams of people providing advice to our clients, and so usually a lead there.
But I find that when we have a team of individuals surrounding a client or working on a particular project, that does provide for a lot of diversity of thought and then really just a more balanced yes strategy, given the fact that it's not necessarily just one individual.
Oh, let's talk about that.
That's really cool.
Because I think again, when we think about negotiation strategy, a lot of times we don't think about the composition of our negotiation team or fully appreciate that we are in fact negotiating as a team.
Let's break down this kind of team sport aspect of this, because if we can understand it then we could really utilize that diversity of thought with intentionality.
Yeah, so I think you diagnose one, how many parties are involved in the negotiation?
What's the outcome that you're looking to achieve?
What's the complexity of it?
I do strongly believe that you have to have somebody that is takes ownership of one side of it.
So it can't be multiple opinions.
But an ideal team setup would be where you have a lead, our client or whoever serving understands who that lead is but can feel comfortable tapping into some depths of other resources to get varying but similar opinions.
And I think that diversity of thought that we bring there is really, really helpful when our clients are essentially usually more than one person making a decision as well too.
And so I think one of the things that we've seen that's really changed in commercial real estate, especially on the like, when I say occupier that's large tenant side, is that there's really not one person making that decision.
And so if we were to talk about, like office occupiers, folks that are going out and setting up headquarters for office space, he before maybe would just be really the ceo and the cfo that were involved in that type of decision and now the probably 10 people that are involved in that.
Where you may have, like the cto the, you know there's certainly the cfo and coo and and all your c-suite, but The people team or HR now is way more involved in those types of decisions.
And so having folks within our team to be able to talk to the important things that all of those individuals are looking for becomes key, because maybe our lead is really savvy on the finance side but there might be somebody on our team that we have built that can really speak to like what this headquarters is going to do for them from a recruitment and retention standpoint.
You can talk through like what that strategy would look like, which is a really different strategy than what the finances.
So we're using all of that to knit together what our overall recommendation would be.
And then you know look, it's probably more of a of a recommendation set up than a negotiation set up.
But when we're having all of those experts, we're then using that to create a negotiation strategy to help our client get what they're looking to accomplish.
We know whatever that is for that particular client.
Yeah Mike, I think this is a great example because again, a lot of times people are negotiating as a team, but they don't really fully appreciate that.
But if people can recognize after hearing this, oh, yes, we are a negotiation team.
We need to operate in unison.
We have to be operating from the same playbook, but each person has a different role and a different expertise.
Now we can tap into those unique skill sets and backgrounds that we might not have tapped into before.
Totally.
If we have somebody who is like the dealmaker, right?
Okay, cool.
We have that.
When you're talking to the CFO on the other side, there's a language.
There's some credibility that comes from having somebody who has that same financial background, who can speak that language in a way that's more persuasive.
And again, going back to ego, it takes somebody who is humble.
You have to have a little bit of humility to say to yourself, you know what?
This is a I might not be the best person to deliver the message.
That's hard to do, but it can be really impactful.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And that what I would say would be like negotiation leadership.
And that's where we see there's a separation between those folks that know how to negotiate in those complex situations and those that know how to lead through complex negotiations.
And they're the ones that are typically leading our highest performing teams that are working on our most complex transactions.
And you see listeners.
You can tell when we flow through this conversation too, because we did not one time talk about negotiation like as a team in our prep.
But this is so fascinating.
It's so fascinating, but again, it's underutilized.
And I think let's speak specifically to the aspect of diversity of thought, because a lot of times you might have a team but you might not have that diversity of thought.
You might have people who look different and have different backgrounds and think all the same way.
And so we really have to be honest with ourselves to figure out who needs to be at the table, who needs to be part of the team but not at the table.
And what voices are missing?
Because we all have blind spots.
And especially going back to what we were talking about with emotionality if our emotions start to take hold, the blind spots become bigger and even harder to see.
And so there has to be a lot of trust within that negotiation unit to be able to speak truth to power and hold people accountable, because we're not always going to be on the same page internally, but we still have to be in unison once we step outside and talk to the other party.
Yeah.
And I think we do that.
So I say well, when I think about negotiations, I think about it just, you know, getting the winning outcome or looks like the well, I got to.
That was weird.
I just got to pop up and said, check your, all right, maybe we got to tee that up again.
Sorry.
Yeah.
So let's, let's just clap twice.
You can take it from the top there.
So when we think about the negotiations, I kind of think about, you know, winning or getting that winning outcome for our client or for our team.
And we do that through asking lots of questions from the other side or from our client, to understand what we need to do and what we need to like, who we need to bring to the table to create that team, because every situation is going to be really different.
And I've always felt that the first conversation.
You build rapport through asking the right questions.
And that really can show people your style, your inquisitiveness, how thoughtful you can be.
And then you use all of that data that you bring to build the team that is going to have all of the resources that you're gonna need to solve that problem or win that negotiation for your client.
And so if you're not asking those questions and if you lead with just kind of making recommendations or talking about the things that you've done, I often find that you're not going to be able to have that diversity of thought.
And so when we ask those questions, ideally it's coming with how can we really get to know this problem or this client as well as we can right from the get-go?
And then, like I said, I deeply believe that you build rapport that way more so than anything else.
And then ultimately, rapport leads to trust, and trust to me is like how you can really win through a negotiation.
By the way,
So that's so, I would say, like to build the right diversity of thought.
We got to start with trust, asking the right questions, understanding who needs to be there, and then really being very thoughtful about making sure that not only do we have the right people in the room, but they understand what their role is there.
They're not just there to, you know, because they look a certain way or they're a certain age.
It's because they're filling a certain role.
And we really want them to own that particular role through that negotiation or through that problem that we're trying to solve.
That's so important.
Yeah, because it's yes, they need they have a role to play.
And then they also have to be empowered to play that role when the time is right, too.
And the.
I don't want to gloss over this because somebody could say all right, ask the right question.
OK, I'll go in and ask questions.
What is it that people often get wrong when it comes to asking questions in these negotiations?
So I think that they don't ask the thoughtful questions.
I think that they ask the really kind of tactile questions that everybody would ask.
And so, like in our business, it would be what are like the you know when's your lease up, or you know how much are you paying, or what is your budget.
And not really like, hey, what will this real estate decision do for you?
Or what happens if it goes wrong?
Or what are you trying to accomplish by this?
And have you ever, what was a successful one that you did in the past?
And really trying to understand, because there you start seeing what are the drivers behind them making this decision?
And, by the way, we were talking about emotion before too.
You'll usually see in those types of you know situations, they're going to talk through something and probably provide like hey, it was, the last transaction was really really stressful because this thing happened and then this created this thing for me and we weren't able to hit our goals or hire people.
And they show an emotional side of it which you then use can then to make a recommendation or to build your kind of negotiating strategy.
I love this, Mike.
This is great because think about this.
Let's say we don't ask that question.
Then we might try to replicate some success that we had in the past, which is which triggers this traumatic response from the other side.
And there have been there been so many times.
We can think about it in our personal and professional lives.
We were sitting here.
We're doing our best.
We're trying to be like be a fair player in this thing.
And somebody assumes the worst.
And we don't understand where this emotionality comes from.
And then we just say this person is wrong.
Crazy.
Write them off.
No, you might have stepped on a landmine and you didn't realize it.
And so I love the examples that you gave, because somebody might say why would I ask what they're trying to accomplish?
They're trying to buy a piece of property so they can make money.
Why would I ask that?
And our ego can sometimes get in the way of asking some of the most profound questions, because sometimes the most profound question is the simplest question.
And the simplest question often never gets asked.
It never gets asked.
And I find that too just from like, again from a coaching standpoint, where I'll come in and be like, ask just some of those simple questions.
And sometimes our folks just haven't thought of it.
They maybe moved through fast or something and didn't think about that part of it.
And so I really kind of start asking, very kind of, just basic questions to understand, you know, why are we here.
How do we get here?
What are they really looking to accomplish?
And, as I said before, I do think that our most skilled negotiator, some of our most successful people that navigate complex negotiations, they really do ask a lot of questions and then think about data, those answers to build the team or to come up with a negotiation strategy.
Absolutely.
And when you start to ask these questions, you start to flow a little bit.
You get that rapport.
And like you said, it builds trust.
And from the outside looking in, it might not seem like much action is happening.
We're talking about these.
I'm using air quotes aggressively listeners who are audio listeners, simple questions and it doesn't look like much action is happening.
But then when you project out into the future and you recognize that one of the most persuasive tools we have in our tool belt is trust, and we've taken the time to build that systematically.
Now those stickier, more difficult elements of the negotiation become just a little bit easier.
And the skills that we have become exponentially more effective.
Absolutely.
And what I don't understand why people don't ask questions is that most of the times, the other party loves to talk about themselves.
I mean who doesn't like to answer questions about themselves, about their strategy, about their business, about their family?
And it's just it's something that I often find that sales professionals forget about that the other side loves the fact that we're interested in them, that we want to help them.
We want to get to know them.
And we really should be using that more often.
Absolutely.
Oh, Mike, I love this.
This is great.
This is really great.
And I think for me one of the most fun things about this is like no clue where the conversation is going.
This is amazing, man.
Listen, I appreciate you.
I appreciate these insights.
Before you go, remind the listeners about what you do and how you can help.
Okay.
So we're CBRE.
We're a commercial real estate services firm.
So wherever you're listening, we probably have a CBRE office.
And so if you need help on managing your property or looking for a property to buy or dispose of, we're here.
We're very consultative and we're here to help.
Appreciate you, man.
You're awesome.
Thank you.
