Managing technology is one of the most popular topics I'm asked about all the time.
When should I give my kid a phone?
What do I do about phones and bedtime?
And what should I do to stay connected with my kid in a house where honestly, me and my partner we're on our phones a lot too?
Jean Twenge just wrote a new book, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World.
She's researched kids' mental health development technology for years years and I was so excited to read what she had to say.
In this conversation we're going to talk about some of the guidelines she's come up with based on all her research.
And as you listen, what I'd encourage you to do is to think about what if this resonates with me?
Is it helpful for me to have specific guidelines that maybe I haven't already developed in my house?
Does that give me a foundation?
So I'm not kind of just deciding one thing one day and another thing a day after that.
I know this conversation is going to be really valuable and is going to lead to a lot of important conversations in your own home.
I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside.
We'll be back right after this.
Hi, Jean.
Hi.
So happy to have you on here today.
Really, really looking forward to talking about your brand new book 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World.
I was just telling you I was reading this book and it just brought up so many actually important conversations, I think, to have with my kids of all ages and really just make so concrete so many of the things that, as you know, parents are thinking about all the time.
So let's just start.
Tell me a little bit about kind of the things that led you to write this book.
Like you're in this world of parenting, kids, mental health, technology.
Give us a little insight into what was going on in your world.
That kind of led to this book that we have on the shelves today.
Yeah, so I've been researching adolescent mental health and its relationship to technology for about a decade.
I published a book in 2017 called iGen, which was about Gen Z, and I hypothesized that you know that huge increase that was starting to happen in teen depression might be linked to smartphones and social media.
But at the time, my kids were pretty young.
My oldest was 10.
My youngest was five.
I have three children, all girls.
And you know we hadn't really had a whole lot of oh, everybody's got a smartphone yet already, or you know mom, I really want to be on social media.
But that started to happen over the next few years.
And so I really had this collision between my research life and then my life as a mom of now three teenagers.
And that's really where this book came from that and giving talks to lots of parents, Even giving talks at corporate events.
When by the third question it was what do I do about my kids and their technology use?
What were some of the themes you were hearing over and over from parents?
There were so many.
So it was, when should I give my kid a smartphone?
Like, what's the right age?
Or gaming or social media or the phone has just taken over my kid's life.
How do I set... boundaries so that doesn't happen?
And then when I do that, how do I avoid them having a total meltdown?
That's just a sampling of some of the questions.
Yeah, that question is one I get a lot too.
In fact, it's kind of a general question about parenting.
How do I do X without my kid having a meltdown?
And I always say to parents you know, the reason it's hard to answer that question is actually because it's just the wrong question.
The question needs to be how can I do X and tolerate the fact that my kid is going to have a meltdown?
Because they will.
Because...
Nobody likes to be told no, no one loves it at any age.
And even if your parent has your best interest in mind long-term, we all like gratification in the moment.
And so a meltdown or push back or talk back is often just your kid's way of saying I don't.
I'm not getting the answer that I want to get.
And probably so much of quality parenting, has to be those moments when you're making a decision for your kid's long-term interest, knowing they're not going to like it short term.
And I think phones and tech, as you know, it's such a primary example of where we need to do that.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I love that philosophy of thinking long term rather than short term.
Yeah, they might be upset in the moment, but you know, it's best for them in the long run.
And I mentioned this in the book there.
When my kids are really young.
Someone said to me remember, you're not raising children, you're raising adults.
And I love that.
It's so important.
I'm just closing my eyes as I think about... And again, it's hard to hold on to that every moment.
And both of us, I'm sure as moms too, there are certain decisions we make where like, I'm optimizing the now.
I just can't deal with this.
I just have to make this moment pass.
We all need to give ourselves a pass for those moments.
But when we think about patterns, how do I set boundaries?
How do I tolerate my kid being upset with me?
How do I tolerate my kid being upset with other people?
That is the stuff that makes for super resilient adults, right.
Adults who are able to deal with not getting their way or not having the thing they want right away, or who can deal with disappointment.
That's what makes for resilience later on.
And that doesn't just get gifted to someone at age 18, right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's why that parenting philosophy is so important, of having those boundaries in place, and then not only are you doing what's best for your kids, but they're learning how to live within that structure and those rules.
Yeah.
So this book lays out 10 different rules, right?
Let's just jump into a couple of them.
So I don't know, maybe this is an unfair question.
I don't know if it's like asking you what your favorite you know, your favorite child, but if you had to pick your favorite rule, I'm going to give you free reign for the first one.
What would that be?
Oh, that one's that's that's easy.
Number two, which is no devices in the bedroom overnight.
Wait, that's my favorite.
I knew we were going to be friends.
That's literally my favorite.
And it's the thing I say to all parents, like starting today, you can make that rule.
Even if your kids had it in their room forever, like it just should be foundational.
But you're the expert on this.
So why that?
Why does that one number?
Why does number two rise to number one?
Yeah, for a bunch of reasons.
I mean so first is just how fundamental and important sleep is for both physical and mental health.
And then just how much research there is about phones in the bedroom.
Even if they're off, they interfere with sleep.
The other thing I love about this role is it's for everyone.
It's not just for kids and teens.
It's for adults of all ages.
Everybody is going to sleep better if the device is out of the bedroom.
And it's also.
It's just, it's kind of like a no argument zone of you know, especially with teenagers, teenagers are going to push back.
That's kind of their job.
But really, you do not need that overnight.
When you are sleeping, you're supposed to be sleeping.
And we're not talking about like the laptop when I'm doing my homework in the evening, or the phone when I'm texting my friends about the math homework.
No, we're talking about after lights out when you're sleeping.
No argument.
And what do we know from research?
Like why does that affect kids sleep and Probably therefore their mental health?
So much just for anyone who's not aware of it.
Yeah.
So this is something that really stunned me is Common Sense Media did a study where they actually tracked kids' phone use.
And the majority were using their phones between midnight and 5 a.m. on school nights.
So that shows you just how pervasive it is.
And that shows you immediately how big of a problem this is, that it's bad enough for the phone to be there.
And then the brain is like, oh, that phone's there.
I wonder what's going on.
And that compromising sleep.
But actually waking up in the middle of the night or staying up that late on a school night to be on the device just spectacularly bad for sleep.
Which is not getting enough sleep is a huge risk factor for mental health issues, as well as being problematic for physical health as well.
And I think if we zoom out to adults like we know this, you could be going through a really hard stage in your life and feeling down or feeling very anxious.
But we all know if you have multiple nights in a row where you're not sleeping, it's almost impossible to disentangle what is exhaustion and depletion from what is my low mood.
And so whenever I talk to parents and kind of ask them about phones in the bedroom when a kid is sleeping,
I always say, there's no shame here.
We've all done whatever we've done up to this point.
No one has their kind of guidelines with their kids around phones in a place that they feel amazing about.
I've never met one parent who's like, I feel great about the way I handle it.
No one.
So everyone's struggling.
And so When parents report to me their kids spiked anxiety or my kid's not doing their homework, or their academic performance is slipping, or they think they're depressed, the truth is, we have to factor out the sleep first.
We have to figure out the piece to kind of see what's left over.
And with the phone in the room, we're just not going to be able to separate those.
You know, I often think for me, if I knew, I don't know like my husband put an amazing ice cream sundae next to my bed at 2 am, like every night.
If I knew he was doing that like I feel like my body would have a way to override its sleep mechanism and it would wake up for something that's very enticing to me.
Now I think we know social media and the constant stream of information is actually more addicting than an ice cream sundae, believe it or not, right?
But if that's next to your kid, the sleeping brain, right?
It's not as if there's no kind of in shallow sleep awareness of what's right next to you, right?
It's why we all wake up when we have a big test the next day or when we have a plane to catch.
Like, your mind kind of knows what's there.
And in those shallow moments of sleep, you're just that much more likely to pop up.
And then probably what that study shows, I'm checking my phone.
All of a sudden, I can't get back to sleep or I've interrupted sleep.
And so I'm in complete agreement with you.
And I often tell parents I have a hard time with rigidity like, except for things that are really harmful.
But this, to me, is like a rigid rule that I think is really important, because it's truly in the name of protecting every child.
So what do you say to parents who are saying okay well, my kid is X years old, my kid's 17.
They've slept with their phone in the room for however many years.
And something I hear a lot from parents, I'm curious how you think about it is, Like, it's too late.
Like, I can't go back on this decision.
The cat's out of the bag.
Yeah, exactly.
Can't put the genie out of the bag.
That's the better phrase.
So, yeah.
How do you think about that?
You're the parent.
You can always change.
And you know, if you got a 17-year-old who's heading to college in two weeks, it might be a little bit of a different conversation.
But anything short of that, absolutely.
And start now.
So then at college, they'll maybe have that better habit.
But I mean, I just don't buy that argument.
I think there's always something that you can do.
If you feel like okay, I didn't do that right, I should have been doing this all along, then change, change it.
And I just want to further empower parents listening because and I think about it with a metaphor and then also with something very practical
So metaphorically right, if you think about I don't know, I'm flying from New York to Los Angeles and the pilot comes on and says I'm going to get you to Los Angeles.
We're doing at 5 p.m.
You're like, all right, we're going as planned.
If the pilot then says oh look, we're going to be okay, but we need to make an emergency landing in Ohio.
I just don't know many passengers who are like, but you promised Los Angeles.
My ticket says Los Angeles.
You're a liar.
Like any reasonable passenger would be like well yes, we both thought it was going to be Los Angeles, but information has changed right.
And then if we laugh at that, I think the very practical thing to remember as a parent is we say to ourselves well, I can't be inconsistent or I lose my authority when I make these changes.
You're actually not being inconsistent.
To me, the job of a parent is to make the best decision with the information you have available in that time.
The truth is information changes.
So you might have made the decision to allow your kid to have a phone in the room.
And that was the best you did with the information you had at that time.
Now you have new information.
And so, even though the decision might change on the surface, you're actually being remarkably consistent internally in that you're actually continuing to do your job, even as the decision changes.
And I think that that's important for parents to know.
Your consistency isn't judged just based on an external decision.
Consistency is actually about attunement to your values.
And you're being consistent by protecting your kid internally, actually changing your decision on the surface, but really helping them with the job you're doing underneath.
Absolutely.
And I also just personally.
I also think it's totally fine to say I made a mistake and I'm going to try to correct it.
Love that.
I mean, by the way, that's something we should say more often in non-tech areas too.
I made a mistake.
Absolutely.
This parenting thing is tricky.
I'm doing the best I can.
I learn more and I'm going to go in a different direction.
The other thing I'm curious what you think is, Whenever I tell my kids something that I know they're not going to like to hear, I often just name that.
Like I'll say, look, I'm going to tell you something.
You might have a couple hard days in front of us.
I don't expect you to cheerlead the decision I'm about to give you.
And then I'm going to change my policy with cell phones in the room.
Here's why, because I think I owe you that.
I've learned it's really disruptive for sleep.
And even if you tell me you're sleeping well, I know it's just an important thing to protect your sleep space.
And so even though this decision might feel like punishment.
I promise you it's actually coming from a place of protection.
It's okay if you don't see it that way.
Probably going to be a couple tricky nights ahead, and then I just know we're going to get to the other side.
And just naming that in advance, you're kind of also saying to your kid I know you're going to feel this way.
I'm not going to change my decision because you feel that way.
And it's really a message of sturdiness to tell your kid you're doing something to protect them and their short-term protest won't change your mind.
I actually think that's how we feel comforted by any leader.
Right.
It's kind of like if you protest the emergency landing.
Oh, I have to get to L.A.
You really don't want the pilot to say, OK, fine, I won't.
You know, you actually want them to stick to their guns.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're just we're going to keep flying, even though one of our engines is totally out.
You know, yeah, exactly.
No.
Yeah.
I love and I love that.
I mean, loving but firm.
We all know that's the best parenting style from decades of research.
So Talk to me next about parental controls, because I have to tell you this is something I think is so important.
And I have found my smartest, most capable friends find it extraordinarily tricky to actually put parental controls in place.
And I think everyone needs a little education and pep talk about how some of this is possible.
Yeah.
So, look, I had a hard time with it, too.
I think everybody... everybody I know does.
And some of that is for whatever reason, the device-based controls.
So let's say, you know, on a Mac, laptop or an iPhone, or the Google setup on an Android phone or a Chromebook.
They're often really hard to figure out.
Even if you're educated, even if you've you know research this stuff, even if you look it up online and do you know the step by step directions.
There's also like kids find workarounds, which is extremely frustrating to a lot of parents.
I hear that when I get parent talks all the time.
Um, so I've come to the reluctant conclusion. that you have to do something else.
So for a laptop, that it's probably going to have to be third party parental control software that you buy.
And I hated coming to that conclusion because I know it's not all parents are going to be able to afford that.
I mean, the good news is it's for the basic package, about 60 bucks a year.
It's less than a streaming service.
So that helps.
And then for phones.
That you know don't give them a smartphone until they're driving is now the rule in our house.
And that's rule number five in the book.
Before that, give them a basic phone design for kids that doesn't have those workarounds.
So it basically has like built in parental controls.
And so I think one of the things you're saying but I just want to make sure is parental controls on a kid's smartphone.
It's really hard to do it well.
Like kids will find a workaround.
You know, I was talking to a friend about how you should still try, but Right.
Where you can have certain limitations on your kid's browser.
But if they're accessing a browser within Snapchat, none of those will apply.
Like that's just one example.
Right.
Yeah.
And so and kids can get really smart.
Right.
Kind of like they say, when there's a will, there's a way.
And they when they want to find a way around it, they often will.
And so I like this.
Two things are true.
Parental controls are important and we should try.
And yes.
It's almost impossible to do them completely effectively, which is one of the reasons delaying.
A smartphone is almost the best parental control that there is.
It is.
Absolutely.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And you know, a while ago, the idea was well, you know, if they don't have a smartphone, then the only other option is a flip phone.
And, you know...
You can absolutely give your kid that if all you need is for you to be able to contact them and maybe for them to send a few texts here and there.
But they're really hard to text on.
They stand out so that other kids will know that you don't have a regular phone.
But I love the phones designed for kids because they can easily have a keyboard.
There's Android phones with just a different platform so they can text their friends, and it doesn't stand out.
And tell me a little bit about the research you've done.
Kind of this no smartphone until you're driving.
Just, you know, flesh that out for us a little bit.
Yeah.
So my my oldest is 18 now.
So when when she was in high school, she actually had a flip phone and she was cool with that.
She is a unique individual.
And I always say that as as a compliment.
So she was she was cool with that for quite a long time.
Then she started driving.
She got her driver's license a little bit after she turned 16.
And so, she'd print out directions, like it was MapQuest from whatever it was.
I remember doing this in 2002.
But then you take a wrong turn, and then those directions don't help that much anymore.
So we realized when she was about 16 and a half, about four months after getting her driver's license, probably a good idea to do the smartphone.
And that's when it occurred to me.
She didn't really need the smartphone before she started driving.
There really wasn't a compelling reason to get her an internet enabled smartphone until then.
And then just the more I thought about it, the more it really did make sense that then they have the maturity.
Also, if they have that driver's license or they're getting around in public transportation, or at least 16, then they don't have that choice of.
Oh, you know, mom and dad are busy.
They can't drive me.
I really want to get together with my friends.
Well, I guess it'll have to be Snapchat.
They can get in the car and go see their friends.
They're more mobile.
They can kind of have more interactive social life once they're driving.
And so the kind of the delta between interactive real social life and on live interactive social life will inherently be shorter when they have the agency and the mobility you're saying.
Yeah, exactly.
And just, you know, you think about, I mean, when do kids usually get funds these days?
10 or 11.
Is that right?
I'm just curious.
Most kids are getting smartphones at age 10 or 11?
Yeah.
And that's almost always going to be just a regular internet-enabled Android or iPhone.
So that's pretty young.
And you think about the difference in maturity between an 11-year-old and a 16-year-old, and it's huge.
Let me ask you one more question about that.
A smartphone versus a smartphone... with social media or all the apps, are you seeing it?
Yes, they're different things, but practically when most 10 or 11 year olds are getting a phone, they're also just kind of getting access to social media along with it.
And that's part of the problem, right?
So if you want to keep your kids off social media as long as possible, it's really hard to do that if they have a smartphone, particularly smartphone without any parental controls.
But even if you put the parental controls on, like no downloading apps which I do recommend still it's a lot easier for them to find a workaround on that than if you give them a kid's phone, where that's just, it just can't happen.
It doesn't allow any social media apps at all.
And I have to mention this those phones designed for kids also don't allow AI boyfriends and girlfriends, because that's the new thing.
Say more about that because I think that's really on parents' minds right now.
I know.
So there are a bunch of apps out there And, you know, there's different AI platforms.
So there's the kind of standard chat GBT, which, you know, kids are using for homework and so on.
But there are apps that are specifically designed to be an AI companion.
And several of them are AI girlfriends or AI boyfriends, or they'll be like sexy chat.
And these are all AI bots.
And if you give your 11 year old a smartphone without any controls on it, There's nothing stopping them from downloading these apps.
And then you know, and ending up having their first quote romantic relationship with a chat bot.
And just to look at it I won't go off on this for too long but one of the things because parents will say to me, like is that so bad?
Is this is it nice that they have something that feels so, you know, validating or connecting?
And I understand the question.
I think you know, when we fast forward for our kids and again we have this longer term vision for them.
Intimate relationships sexual non-sexual, just any type of intimate relationship is so awkward for so long.
Even if it's friendship, it's hard to be vulnerable.
It's hard to tell the true story.
It's hard to say, I felt left out.
It's hard to say, you know, I didn't like it when.
It's hard to have a conversation with someone you have a crush on.
Like these are really awkward things because they're new.
They require you to really put yourself out there.
And one of the You know just one of the things on the list that concerns me with these early quote AI relationships is they almost give the illusion or the feeling of intimacy without any hurdle of awkwardness or discomfort.
And I think that's a really dangerous thing to pair, because when the younger generation feels like they can get all the benefits of intimacy without the risks and the awkwardness of vulnerability, it will have a profound impact on their ability to have actual human relationships.
And it'll even lead to a sense of entitlement and kind of almost aggressive behavior when inherently normal real, intimate relationships don't come with that same type of comfort and ease.
And so I think that's a perspective I often ask parents to think about, right?
Where it's not just about the short-term moment of, oh, I felt validated.
It's really important we make sure kids understand, see intimate relationships for what they are and not have kind of a false security that they can be achieved so easily and kind of cheaply.
Yeah absolutely, because those chat bots they're programmed to be affirming that's what they do.
And then you have that quote relationship.
Then what happens if you have a friendship or much less a romantic relationship with a actual flesh and blood human being who has feelings of their own and is not always going to agree with you?
Or think you're brilliant.
Like I mean really like every time I chat anything with an AI chat, it's like oh Becky, that's a great idea.
Let me expand on it.
Oh, brilliant.
Oh, so smart.
Like, literally, I almost feel myself getting a little frustrated at my husband.
Like, do you not think I just said something brilliant?
Like, where are my accolades, you know?
And so, yeah, we notice that even in adulthood, right?
And so I think that's just a really good point.
Another rule in your book, and I've seen this be so important in my house, phone free zones.
Tell me about that.
Yeah.
So just times and places when preferably everybody in the family just has those devices put away.
So family dinner is a great example of that, or family game night, where we're going to interact with each other face to face.
And we're not going to do this thing that social psychologists have come up with a clever name for which is fubbing a combination of phone and snubbing.
Everybody has experienced it and hates it, and everybody does it.
We don't want that.
We want to have that conversation face to face, have that time carved out when we can actually be there and be present with each other.
It's interesting, this transition to the school year I've thought a lot about family dinner.
And part of it is that my youngest just doesn't need to go to bed as early as he used to, because he's just getting older, right?
When you have like really young kids, or you have a kid who needs to go to bed by seven, another kid who doesn't get home from sports until 630, like family dinner.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
There's a period of time where it's really impossible and that's okay.
But I've thought about hey, maybe my youngest can stay up a little later, and maybe my oldest can start homework a little later.
And the way I thought about it in my head is just what if the thing I optimize for on weeknights is actually family dinner together?
And I can tell you it's completely changed this school year.
I think it's been one of the best things our family has had happen.
And the rules of family dinner aren't that rigid.
We eat dinner together.
There's one meal that we all have.
There's no phones anywhere.
And we don't have such a routine.
Like sometimes we do true sin a lie about our day or whatever.
Rose Thorn or, you know, sometimes we just listen to each other.
But the essence of it is it is a container where we are together.
Exactly.
And there's no phones.
And it feels old school.
We're just connecting and being present with each other.
And it just made me think about so many things.
I tell parents because I swear it's been more impactful on kids.
My relationship with my kids, their behavior, their cooperation.
They're arguing with each other less than being kinder to each other, maybe more than any of the more like complicated strategies that we think about doing.
And it's almost remarkable how powerful it is in family life, because it is actually a kind of a simple old school thing.
Yeah.
That's that's the charm of it.
That's the beauty of it.
And it's just great for that feeling of togetherness and that you have.
Even if that's the only time that you all come together as a family on weeknights, then you have that.
What do you say to parents?
Because I hear this or like, you know, honestly, it's it's my husband.
It's my wife who is the one you know.
Like getting my kid to put down their phone for family dinner like that's.
That's manageable.
But it's really hard when my partner, you know is oh, I have this thing come up at work, or whatever.
You know, I think one of the things that's interesting is someone asked a question and we've been so programmed to say like, let me look that up.
Oh, wait, I can look that up.
And then.
Right.
So how do you manage that?
I mean, you know, just that honest conversation.
And I think one thing is if you've if let's say, you know, you have a spouse who is on call or is the contact for an elderly parent, they really do have a compelling reason.
Then they should narrate what they're doing.
I'm so sorry.
I do have to check this really quick.
And then it's not just like, oh, you guys are boring.
I'm going to take out my phone.
I actually think it's a great idea overall.
You know, if you do find yourself really not being able to avoid taking out the phone, or yeah, if you're like, let me, let me look it up.
Or like, we're arguing about what year did this movie come out?
I'm going to hear it.
I'll look that up really quick, but then put it away, but say that's what you're doing.
So then it's not like, oh, I'm going to text my buddy.
I love that.
And the other thing is just for anyone listening is It's really interesting to try to have a full conversation with multiple people without looking something up.
Like we all used to do that.
It was like, what year did that come out?
And everyone's like, nobody knows.
Nobody knows.
It's impossible to know.
And you kind of wondered about it together, which is interesting.
Wondering about something together is such a powerful way of connecting that sometimes short circuiting to the right answer actually diminishes connection.
Oh, I think it was 1979.
I'm pretty sure it was 81 because I remember this.
Oh, you remember it was like in 81?
Wow, dad, you're old.
Yeah, I am.
Like, whatever the conversation ends up being, it actually only happens because you haven't come up with the right answer.
And I think about that often, how easily we can look something up and then the conversation's over.
So it is kind of just a challenge to take on.
Can I have a family dinner or breakfast, whatever it is, where we don't have a phone and And you can even preview?
There'll be probably a moment where everyone thinks, oh, let's just look this up online.
We're just not going to do it.
It's not like we don't believe in finding out answers.
We do.
But once in a while, it's okay not to and just see what transpires.
Because I do find the habit of like looking something up.
And my family is probably a sports scorer.
We're very into sports.
All of a sudden, it's so hard to put your phone down right after.
Then all of a sudden, you see a notification, right?
And that is the thing of the phone.
Like one tiny ding... leads you into an hour of a rabbit hole.
And then you come out of your phone.
You're like, I can't even believe it's this time.
I totally lost it.
None of us are immune to that.
So actually just trying to stop the beginning of that downward spiral once in a while, I think is, you know, probably the most realistic.
Yeah, absolutely.
Any other rule in your book?
I want people to read the book.
So we're gonna leave them with a little of a cliffhanger.
But anything that you're like, oh, geez, Becky, I gotta get this one in.
This one is... you know, also feel super important to talk about.
Rule eight of give your kids real world freedom.
Love this one.
Yep.
So it's not just getting off the phone.
It's what are they going to do instead?
And what does actually build resilience?
Kids doing things on their own.
Yes.
With their parents' approval, but without their parents' help, whether that's walking or biking to school, or going into a grocery store and buying something, or even at home doing your own laundry, learning how to cook a meal, and doing that for your family every once in a while.
I love this.
And I love that this is a kind of side by side point to guidelines around containing phone use, because none of this is about trying to ruin our kids' childhood.
Like, just to be clear, we're not trying to just reduce things that give them pleasure.
But we know, right, playing around on your phone all the time.
And the way I think about it and it's beyond just phones, it's even young kids in screen time is.
Yeah, I'm not rigid about anything, but the more our kids learn that they can kind of get this easy, quick dopamine hit from something that requires no effort or struggle, that's just a dangerous combination like I want my kids to know how to struggle, to know how to figure things out over time, to feel awkward, whether it's talking to someone they have a crush on or it's awkward the first time you check out at a grocery store.
Like no kid is going to do that for the first time and be like, that's easy.
The whole point is that it's awkward.
It's hard.
You take a step, and there's no better feeling in the world than watching yourself do something you thought you couldn't do.
And so I think the whole point of rule number eight is we actually want to set our kids up for more of that.
Right.
Like that's actually part of our job too.
And being on your phone a lot or high tech, it can actually get in the way of that.
So if we're reducing one, we really want to increase the other.
Yep.
Yep.
Best, best cure for anxiety is experience.
I think that really kind of sums it up.
What do you?
What is the pushback here?
Or maybe where do you just find parents are very anxious about this?
Maybe where their own anxiety or maybe their own bad experiences kind of get in the way.
What have you noticed?
Yeah, so I hear that a lot.
So I gave a talk over the weekend.
Someone raised their hand and said you know, I love that thing about the real-world freedom and I know that that's good.
But what if I ask my six-year-old to go into the next aisle at the grocery store to grab something and come back to me?
With context, we're talking about the grocery store and probably like less than a minute.
What if they get kidnapped?
And I think that, given how vanishingly rare that is especially –, you know, when they're aisle away at the grocery store, that's interesting.
I think that says a lot about the anxiety that's out there among parents and in the whole society right now when, for most parents, this time, now when your kids are young, is safer than when you were the same age.
Think we're talking about something really interesting psychologically in terms of how we process risk, because we know the risk to kids spending a lot of time on their phones.
It's, it's massive, it's a known risk, but the risk isn't kind of um captured in the exact moment.
The appearance of the moment is like my kids just on their phone right versus.
It reminds me of a time when You know someone would say I don't know.
I know someone has this illness at a dinner party.
Should I go?
And they're like, oh, knowing that I don't want to go.
But this is someone who gets on the subway all the time.
And probably the chances that they're exposed to illness is like high.
Right.
So our body kind of processes risk in an interesting way where we think letting my kid go to the aisle next door.
We're thinking about something so bold as kidnapping in that moment.
But the actual risk in that moment is probably less risk than the risk that is known from our kids, for example, spending too much time on their phone or sleeping with their phone in the room.
And I'm curious how you respond to this.
One of the things I often talk about with parents in terms of risk is how complete minimization of risk isn't a life strategy.
Like there's some amount of risk we have to take on to just live a life that's worth living, right?
And where we are in that spectrum Everyone has a different amount, right?
But minimizing risk at all times for your kids ironically will lead to a kid who is terrified of the world because the message they've been given over and over is nothing is safe for you to do.
And so fast forward 10, 20 years.
This is a kid who's going to be an adult, who finds it very, very hard to do something independently because their body gives them a message of risks, danger kind of, all the time.
Exactly.
And they're they're scared to do things they don't know how to do things.
You know, I teach on a college campus and I give a lot of talks on college campuses and everywhere I go what I hear from staff and faculty is I have more and more students who can't make even simple decisions without texting their parents, and that they come in prepared academically but not in terms of managing their life.
Even little things like they have no idea how to do laundry.
And so this is like let's make this concrete for parents, because everyone's starting point is going to be different.
And sometimes, if you know you're a parent who can feel pretty anxious about this, you can actually use that as a little bit of a compass.
Like, OK, what gives me 10 out of 10 panic?
The thought of my kid.
I don't know.
You know, let's say someone doesn't even live in New York City.
I get it.
You're like, the thought of my kid going on the subway by themselves, that's too high.
Okay, great.
So we're not going to start there.
And then maybe a different level you check in on.
Is my kid going to the grocery store in our town while I'm parked in the car?
Okay, maybe that still feels too hard.
Maybe I'm in the store with my kid, but I stay in the aisle and they go to check out by themselves.
To think about this less as all or nothing and more as what is a little bit of discomfort I'm comfortable with as a parent.
And I can kind of scaffold my kid from there.
And then I think it becomes a lot more manageable.
And I just want to say, as a parent who I think does give my kids a good amount of independence, I just want to say it's completely true.
There's nothing I've seen them ever do kind of academically or in sports even that has given them the confidence that walking to the local store has and bringing back breakfast for the family.
Like, truly.
Because...
The experience of feeling like you're part of this world, the real world, and you're an agent in that world and you can do things and you can help and you can have purpose and impact.
Kids actually do crave that and they almost get a high when they feel that.
And, by the way, the other thing I say to parents Do you know how much easier it is when your kid makes breakfast for themselves?
Like literally, we all, I can't even sit down and have coffee.
Like I've learned, hold on a second.
A little bit of work helping my eight-year-old makes a breakfast burrito for himself.
He does the full thing, start to finish.
And you know what I'm doing when he's doing that?
I don't know.
I'm messing around.
I'm sitting down.
I'm drinking my coffee, right?
And it's not always perfect.
But the way your kid's independence gives you energy and literal time back and your resentment and depletion goes down to me.
That's one of the reasons no one talks about that is still a good reason to motivate a parent to help a kid be a little bit more on that track.
Absolutely.
I mean, it really is a win-win situation.
Kids do those things on their own.
They gain confidence.
It tamps down their anxiety.
It tamps down your anxiety.
And then yeah, they've done their laundry, they've cooked dinner for the family, then you don't have to do it.
I love it.
All right.
Well, thank you for this conversation.
I really got so much out of your book and it just made me think about things in a different way.
And it also just really did generate important conversations with my kids.
And I want to thank you for like all your years of work and research in this space.
It's so important and we're so grateful.
So thank you.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me on.
There's so many important things we talked about today.
But if I had to choose one to rise to the top, it's actually Jean's second rule in the book.
No phones in the bedroom at night.
Now, I know a lot of us hear that and we can spiral.
Oh, does that mean I already messed up my kid?
No.
Something I tell myself all the time is the right time to change is always right now.
We always say to ourselves, it's too late.
I messed it up.
I think a different perspective is helpful.
Today is always earlier. than tomorrow.
Remember, you are the pilot of your family's plane.
You're a sturdy leader and you can always change a decision, so it's more in line with your own values.
Let's end the way we always do.
Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart.
Let's remind ourselves, even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside.
I'll see you next time
