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Welcome to the You Versus You podcast.
I'm Lex Barrero, inviting you to go beyond the titles and the accolades of the world's most successful entertainers.
Each week we take off the cape and get real about the inner battles, childhood stories and the moments that shaped our guests.
Get inspired to become the best version of you.
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I'm Radhi Devlukia and I'm the host of A Really Good Cry podcast, and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Urie.
If you're out there trying to date right now, being ghosted on Hinge, or want to create a dating profile that gives you a solid chance of matching with someone you actually want to go on a date with, Then this episode with Hinge's Director of Relationship Science, Logan Urie, is definitely for you.
Relationships do require work.
The best relationships are people who really work on them together.
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No, thank you.
Instead, check out Brown Ambition.
Each week I, your host, Mandy Money, gives you real talk, real advice, with a heavy dose of I feel you, sis.
Like on Fridays when I take your questions for the BAQA.
Whether you're trying to invest for your future, navigate a toxic workplace, I got you.
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We only obsess over people who aren't fully available to us.
The obsession can be mistaken for a spark, where there's something we're projecting onto someone that is so full on it feels like an obsession.
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose.
I'm your host Jay Shetty, and I'm so excited to introduce you to someone that I am a huge fan of.
I've been following her for a couple of years now, loving all of her content, engage with her regularly and consistently.
And then when I was on tour this year, I actually had the opportunity to meet her.
And now we finally have her in the On Purpose studio.
I'm speaking about Quinlan Walther, a writer and relationship coach, transforming the way millions of people think about love.
Quinlan's viral videos on dating, self-trust and connection have reached millions of people worldwide.
If you don't follow her already, make sure you do after this conversation.
Quinlan is helping people break unhealthy patterns, build deeper connections and create relationships that feel safe, intentional and fulfilling.
Please welcome to On Purpose, Quinlan Walther or Q. Q, I'm so glad to have you here.
Jay, it's so good to see you.
Thank you for having me.
Of course.
I am so excited to dive in.
I have so many things to talk to you about.
I know our audience is going to absolutely love this conversation because they're constantly trying to figure out love and relationships and dating.
I feel like that's...
Aren't we all?
Exactly.
I feel like it's the need of the hour, which is such a beautiful thing as well.
And the first question I wanted to ask you is what's the difference between wanting a relationship and being ready for a relationship?
One of my favorite ways to frame this, which I think we can all relate to, is you shouldn't go grocery shopping when you're starving.
We don't tend to make the best choices.
We grab the first thing we see.
We grab all the things that we want that look exciting, right?
Ooh, that'll taste so good.
I want this.
I want that.
Not necessarily what we need.
And that, in my opinion, applies to dating and relationships as well.
When you go out into the world, you start dating.
You're looking for a relationship.
You want to have a pretty solid understanding of what it is that you're looking for.
You want to have a pretty solid understanding of how you love yourself, how you show up for yourself, the life you want to create for yourself, the relationship that would be an added bonus to that life that you want to create, rather than feel like you're trying to fill a void.
You end up seeking connections from a place of desperation that can't be fulfilling because it's essentially pouring into a bottomless pit of trying to fill this bottomless void.
So, in my opinion, asking yourself those questions first, really spending time understanding who you are, what you want, how you can love yourself, how you can support yourself, how you can commit to building a life you like and the relationship that could be a bonus.
I also want to add the caveat that it's not as if you have to go hide away, do all of those things and then come out and find the relationship.
It can happen at pretty much the same time.
With the focus being on understanding all the things I just said, who you are, what you want, etc.
And not go looking for love when you are metaphorically starving.
I love that truth bomb.
That's huge already.
The idea that we're constantly looking for love when we're starving, rather than being really really clear and being in a healthy sense of hunger.
Like you have an appetite.
Right. but you're not starving because we all know that when you're starving, you're so spot on.
I think about all I was literally going through, all the bad decisions I've made At the grocery store.
At the grocery store or what I eat when I'm starving.
I will pull up at a gas station.
I will buy two bags of chips.
A Reese's bar.
Yeah, totally.
Like everything that you don't want to be having.
And then on the way home, you're regretting it.
And you love it while you're eating it.
100%.
It's the best while it's there, right?
And it's, oh, this is everything that I wanted.
And then 10 minutes later, you're probably hungry again.
You're probably crashed out from the sugar high.
You need a nap and you feel even more exhausted and still hungry after you're done.
I feel like that just directly applies to the kind of relationships, the kind of connections that we choose when we're acting from that place of starvation desperation, emptiness.
Yeah.
And the hard part about that is that it's so real today to feel that way, to feel lonely, to feel desperate, to feel not chosen.
What do we do with all those emotions then?
Because we're used to running for the quick solve, because those emotions are so heavy and hard to sit in.
What do you do with all those emotions when you're not getting to just curb your craving by getting some fast food or fast love?
Build self-trust.
Self-trust is imperative for liking who you are understanding who you are making decisions that align with who you really want to be.
And of course, that pays off in our relationships.
There are four Cs when it comes to self-trust, in my opinion.
First one is curiosity.
Are you curious about who you are, why you do what you do, the feelings that you feel, your motives and intentions behind the decisions that you make, what you want out of life?
Is there curiosity?
You can't trust yourself if you don't know yourself.
And from curiosity can come comprehension.
So it's really important that you lead with curiosity.
The second one is capacity.
So that's emotional flexibility, emotional stability, like you just asked.
What do we do with these big emotions?
You build the capacity to stay anchored in who you are, even when you feel really sad, even when you feel really helpless or hopeless or overwhelmed angry, frustrated.
Can you find an anchor in yourself that you can support yourself through all of those emotions?
That's capacity.
The third one is compassion.
Having humanity for who you are, having an understanding that you are a flawed human who makes some poor decisions, sometimes right.
And being able to meet yourself with a softness, with a warmth, is imperative, like absolutely paramount.
And we're talking a lot about relationships here today.
If you aren't compassionate with yourself, you'll be far less likely to be compassionate with the people around you and your significant other and such.
The changes we want to make don't typically happen from a place of rigidity, blame, shame, judgment.
They happen from a place of compassion and support and love.
And then finally, the fourth one is commitment.
The fourth C is commitment.
Your commitment, your devotion to being who you want to be, making decisions that really align with that and building a life that feels so fulfilling, so good from within.
There's no way around it.
You can have the first three if you don't have the commitment to bringing who you want to be to fruition, to building that life.
Things go astray.
So you need that fourth one as well.
I like the four Cs.
Thank you.
Yeah, and they feel like...
They take a lot of time.
I can't imagine doing that in a month or three months.
And, like you said, I think, our idea around doing work before dating and you alluded to this in a healthy sense we kind of at one point started to believe we had to be complete before we met someone.
Yeah.
And as someone, I've been married now for nine years and with my wife for 12.
I thought I knew who I was when we met and that was a good foundation.
But I have discovered so much more about myself and grown so much more in the last 12 years than what I thought.
And so this idea that we have to be fully formed fully complete, fully perfect before we meet someone doesn't really add up.
I would even say any relationship will change you.
Some for the better.
If there isn't any change happening in the relationship, you probably aren't actually showing up to it.
And more to your point, when you enter a healthy safe, loving relationship, It's going to reflect back to you the parts of you that you haven't yet seen, worked on, grown through, grown out of grown around.
But I believe you have to be able to discern what is growth versus what is judgment or a lack of acceptance, or an opportunity for growth anyway, because Roddy could come to you and say Jay, I'm really noticing that you haven't been present with me and I miss you.
You know, I want more time with you.
If you don't have the awareness that that's probably coming from a place of love, from a desire to improve your relationship, if you don't have a growth mindset, you'll get defensive.
You'll snap back.
You won't listen.
And you'll drive a wedge even further between the two of you.
So I think you need to practice some of those four C's so that you have the awareness of what growth feels like, what it's like to meet yourself, so that when you're in a relationship that is asking you to grow more, there's already a familiarity there.
I do think that's important.
It's so important.
But what's so interesting about what you're saying and I'm so glad you've gone in that direction is you're saying relationships take growth and are almost for growth, but we don't get into them, wanting that.
We get into them wanting pleasure or joy or relief or companionship.
And what you just said is, well, no, it's about growth.
Talk to me about that difference between our expectation and why you think relationships are actually about growth.
As you grow, as you know yourself, like yourself, all the things we talked about.
You don't need as much from the relationship itself.
You aren't expecting the person that you're with to be a validation machine to meet you in every way, in every moment, all the time, so perfectly.
You can show up and actually allow the other person to meet you in this almost third entity.
There's you, the other person, and then the relationship that you create together.
And that means I get to bring my insecurities, you get to bring your insecurities.
I get to bring my good stuff, you get to bring your good stuff right.
And we meet each other there.
And the point of a relationship is just to relate to another person, right?
To walk alongside them, to be a source of love encouragement enthusiasm, and to grow individually in your own right.
But I agree with you that I think one of the biggest problems today with people or for people who haven't really taken the time to try and meet themselves.
It is what can I get?
What can I get?
I'm not getting enough.
I need to get more.
This isn't what I wanted, with very little consideration for the other person in this third entity that is the relationship.
It's something that I'm really grappling with as we're talking about it to try and help people shift their perspective, because we're not saying that it's growth that is growth that brings you pain or stress, or we're saying it's growth that inspires you to become better and be better.
And it may take you a second to make it inspiring for each other.
So in the start, it may rub you.
So, for example, as you said, when Radhi comes up to me at the beginning and says hey, I need you to do this or that, my ego is quite high and I go well, why don't you do it for yourself?
And then it drives a wedge between us.
And then, over time, you respect and love so much about this person that you start to go.
Well, wait a minute, maybe they're saying it from the right place.
Now I've grown to have the ability to recognize that everything she says is from a place of love.
And now maybe I'll be able to receive it.
And the third time she says it, I'm almost noticing I've been not present myself.
And I can say, hey, I haven't been present.
And now we're not trying to live in a world where I am always fully present, because that's never going to happen.
That's not realistic.
But it goes from her saying it and me being triggered to her saying it and me being aware, and then me noticing it even before she says it, so that I'm actually able to explain why I may not be present.
Sometimes I'll say to Radhi, hey, you know what?
The next week's really intense for me.
I think I'm just going to be a bit less around because I've got some things to focus on.
And I just want you to know it's got nothing to do with you or I've just got a lot on right now.
And I find that that's really helpful for a relationship.
And that's emotional safety, choosing a partner and building a relationship that is based in trust.
Emotional safety your ability to see, hear Roddy's take And trust that she's coming from a loving place, not from a critical place, not from a defensive place.
That requires emotional stability.
That requires emotional safety.
So when you choose a partner...
Look at this in early dating.
What is the character of the person that you're seeing?
How do they treat their friends?
How do they treat their family?
Are they a person of integrity?
Are they typically kind and well-intentioned?
Because that's going to bloom into a relationship with that same character, right?
Yeah.
Someone gives you feedback.
This person that you're building a relationship with gives you feedback.
Can you trust that they're well-intentioned in their feedback, that what they're asking for or what they're reflecting back to you is for the greater good of your connection?
Right.
Or simply a request to love them better, to love them in the way that they want to be loved.
And assuming you want to be a person who does that, assuming you want to be a person who participates in the emotional safety and the stability, then you're able to hear that, that underneath the request or the feedback, et cetera, rather than get defensive.
But it requires trust and it requires emotional safety.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And how do you know the difference between someone's request being inherently good versus unreasonable?
Because I imagine when people are dating, they may hear quite often hey, I don't think you're present, or you missed my friend's birthday, or you missed this, you missed that.
And you almost feel like they're not hearing you.
How do you make sense or decipher between someone's feedback being inherently good and for the relationship versus just being an unreasonable request?
If there's too much black and white thinking, if someone comes to you and says you skipped my friend's birthday, you didn't remember that important meeting that I had last week and you forgot to take out the trash, you must not love me.
You don't care about this relationship.
And I won't stand for it.
I won't have it.
That's unreasonable.
That's ego speaking.
That's an insecurity.
That's not kind.
That's not a loving way to communicate or to think.
If someone can come to you and hold...
The nuance there can see the color.
Hey, you've been really stressed, right?
You had a really busy week.
You forgot about my meeting.
You missed my friend's birthday.
You forgot to take out the trash like you said that you would.
I know you've been busy.
Can I help support you in some way?
And is there any way that you can make the event next week with me?
Be really important, right?
So it's being able to hold, hey, this hurts.
Hey, I see where you're coming from.
You're a human with finite capacity and I don't expect you to be a superhero here, and the relationship is important, right.
There's so much color in there.
So I think the straightforward answer to your question is if it's black and white, if it's demanding and if it really only considers one perspective, one side, then you might want to consider a different approach.
Yeah.
And that's really great awareness for ourselves as well, because we all want everyone else to communicate with us in an emotionally intelligent way.
But then when it comes to us sharing our needs and I, it's so interesting when you were saying that it resonates so deeply, it makes so much sense.
And then I go where do people even learn all of this?
Right, like we're doing this podcast so that people can learn and grow, but i'm listening to you going.
I don't know anyone who naturally communicates that way because they didn't see that in their home.
They didn't have that through friends or family.
They didn't have any training, of course.
And so we all do the other thing, which is you always choose yourself.
You never show up for me.
You don't love me.
We all do that version.
And so sometimes you're in a relationship with someone and you see that, but then you're like but I've been with everyone else and they, you know, they're worse than you.
So I guess this is it.
You hear all the time, love is consideration, right?
Love is an action.
Love is... consideration.
Yes, but not consideration beyond someone's capacity, right?
People can only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves.
They can only meet you given whatever emotional resources they have available to them at any given time.
And where we get stuck is is expecting someone to anticipate and meet our needs, all the time uncommunicated.
And then there's this devastating disappointment when they don't, when they don't show up the way that we want them to.
That's not a lack of love.
That's dependency.
That's a parent-child dynamic.
Not having to ask, having all your needs tended to without any forewarning or insight.
That's not an adult-adult partnership.
So you have to consider the kind of relationship you want to build and the partner you want to be is the other half of that, because I'm assuming it's someone who is patient right, who is willing to see the limited resources that someone has available at some time, can tolerate a certain amount of disappointment when you aren't met in the ways that you want to be met.
Someone who's loving and warm in their communication and their understanding.
When you know you want to be those things, then you can start practicing, even if it wasn't shown to you.
You can take stock of where you aren't showing up in those ways, where you can be a little bit better at showing up in those ways.
But I really, really think it starts with accountability first.
Take a look at your side of the street.
When you've taken a look at your side of the street.
If you're in a relationship, then bring it to conversation, right?
Like, hey, let's co-create this thing together.
How can we do this together?
I think that's the way.
I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast.
Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about exploring human potential.
I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students who would be like it's easier to punch someone in the face.
When you think about emotion regulation.
Like, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use, unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it.
If it's going to be beneficial to you.
Because it's easy to say like, like, go blank yourself, right?
It's easy.
I'll see you next time.
Takes effort.
Listen to the Psychology Podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I feel so many people right now I'm sure you hear it all the time are burnt out and exhausted with dating.
They're just tired of dating.
And they've either developed mindsets like there's no good men left, all the good men are taken.
Oh, you know, well, she's not quite right.
Whatever it may be, right?
Everyone has their version, but people are exhausted with dating.
We talked about what happens when you go out there starving.
What do you do when you feel exhausted?
Well, you have two options.
Number one, you can stop.
You cannot date.
That's an option.
Take a breather.
It doesn't have to be a full-time job.
It doesn't have to feel like a full-time job.
It's good to focus on other things.
Or...
You can shift your expectations, not needing to walk into every first date, as if you're interviewing for your future spouse.
The position of your future spouse.
Like such high stakes, such high pressure.
Can you go in and...
Try to have fun.
You know, can you change the energy that you want to bring to the room where you're just meeting someone new?
You're going to go grab some dinner.
You're going to go grab coffee.
You're going to go grab drinks, whatever it is.
Can I enjoy myself?
Can I have fun with it?
And deciding the energy you want to bring to the function typically allows you to enjoy the function more rather than feeling like okay, here we go again.
Another disappointment, another letdown, another waste of time.
Don't do anything with that mentality, with that energy or attitude.
So you can either stop or shift your energy, shift your perspective.
Yeah, I was speaking to a friend the other day and she was saying she goes.
She said to me I just wish men realized how long it takes a girl to get ready.
And she was like, I got ready.
She was like, I looked real cute.
And she was like, he didn't say anything.
She was like this guy that she went on a first date with.
He said she didn't say I looked lovely.
He didn't say it was nice.
To see me, he didn't say, it was lovely.
He was just like, I didn't feel like he- What a bummer.
Yeah, and she was so let down.
And she was just like, I really put effort into how I- you know, got ready.
I was excited about it.
And it just felt like it wasn't just that he didn't notice her visually.
She was like, the conversation didn't go either.
But I can imagine that that kind of feeling repetitively gets tiring.
Yeah.
But at the same time, you're so right that it gets tiring when there's really high stakes on it every time and it being perfect or being the one, or being the moment.
It's almost like.
It's almost like you made it harder for yourself by going out, wanting it to be the night.
Whereas if you'd just gone out and even if you did put in all that effort and everything, but you liked that about yourself.
And if you had fun, right?
I'm a girl.
I love getting ready.
I love my two hour long process of getting ready for an event.
And, you know, the music's playing, the vibe is good.
That's fun.
I enjoy that.
I enjoy that.
So I do it more.
I do it when I want to.
It's a process that I want to engage in.
I also think I'd like to start a petition to bring back flirting in general.
I think we we've lost the art of flirting.
Flirting is fun and not flirting that has to lead to anything, not you.
You find someone attractive, there's a little bit of chemistry, you share a five minute conversation, it's flirty and it's fun and it can end there.
It can end there.
You show up to a first date.
Can I tap into that?
You know the back and forth, the banter, the fun, the chemistry, with no strings attached, just for the sake of connection and fun.
Yeah.
I don't know how we'll start that.
Yeah.
We're going to figure it out.
We'll start a petition.
Bring flirting back.
Yes, bring back flirting.
Yeah, I feel like it's disappeared, mostly because people aren't used to speaking in person in the time that things are flirty.
So most of the flirting happens over message.
Yes.
And then by the time you get in front of each other, you have to have a real conversation, which is kind of like a hard shift to go from flirting on the phone to, you know, through text, to them being interesting in person.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Do you believe the spark is real and does it matter?
Absolutely.
Spark is real and it matters, but it changes and it fades and it grows, and In other instances I think you need to feel an immediate attraction to someone that you are romantically interested in.
That doesn't mean you are flooded, overwhelmed, like hot and sweaty, can't catch your breath.
It doesn't have to be that.
But you do need to think, I'd like to be a little closer to them.
Scooch my chair a little bit closer.
I should figure out a way to talk to them, you know?
But that's not to say that connection and intimacy and attraction can't grow over time.
They absolutely do, especially for women, especially for women.
But you should find the person that you're dating attractive and there should be a spark of yes, I want to be physically closer to them, but I also want to know more about them.
There's some magic here.
There's something to work with.
I think there has to be.
But...
As you get to know a person, as the novelty wears off, that spark will change.
And that's okay.
I don't think we need to discount anyone if there isn't some immediate firework.
And we should prepare for that spark to change if you plan on starting a long-term relationship.
Yeah.
When can the spark mislead us?
How does it mislead us?
When it feels like you're on a roller coaster.
When you find yourself pining for someone.
I like to say we only obsess over people who aren't fully available to us.
And that spark can really be mistaken or the obsession can be mistaken for a spark.
Where there's something we're projecting onto someone that is so full on, it feels like an obsession.
And...
There's this gap between who they are and who they could be.
The relationship that you could have and the relationship that you actually have.
And that gap in between is a reflection of who you would get to be and how you would get to feel if the fantasy became a reality.
And that can feel like a spark, can feel like a deep, overwhelming obsession.
Anyone who's been through this knows how all-consuming it can be.
But when we're projecting a fantasy onto someone, that spark can take us away into a whole other world.
Yeah, I fully agree.
And it's so hard because when you're doing that, you don't even know you're doing it.
No, no.
Typically not at first.
If you experience it enough times, it'll be a pattern.
It's probably happened.
If it's happened once...
It'll probably happen again, unless you catch it, because you shouldn't feel like you're falling off a cliff.
You shouldn't feel like a free fall of adrenaline and anxiety.
You should be excited to see someone, excited to be around them, to get to know them.
But it should not feel like the ground falls from underneath you when you're with them or not near them or uncertain about what's going to happen.
What's the difference between chemistry and compatibility and what's more important over time?
I think compatibility in terms of shared values and visions of the future.
People often mistake compatibility for similarity in all aspects.
I need to find someone who likes the same movies I like, listens to the same music, prefers to eat all the same foods that I do, goes to sleep with the same type of You.
Don't need an identical copy of you.
In fact, that would probably drive you crazy.
What I think compatibility really boils down to in a more important sense is...
How do you value your time, attention and energy when it comes to the most important things in your life?
If you are someone who values family, you want children one day, you want to be married, you want a long-term partnership with love honesty trust, all those things.
You need to find someone who values family, kids being married, prioritizing the family above just their own innate desires, right.
Those values have to align.
Otherwise, you're headed for disaster.
Same thing with visions of the future.
If you start dating someone who wants to live out of a van and travel around the country and wants to kind of have this nomadic life, and you want to live two blocks away from your parents in Iowa, and forever, and that's home for you.
I love that for both of you.
You're probably not meant to be together.
That'll be a really contentious relationship.
I like to say, don't order what's not on the menu when you meet someone.
If they say work is their most important priority, that's their top value.
Don't get into a relationship expecting to change that about someone.
It's not fair to them.
It's not fair to you.
That's compatibility.
Chemistry, in my opinion, boils down to the magic that you feel just being around someone.
It's almost palpable.
There's.
Whether that's a quiet intimacy, like a soft intimacy, you're pulled towards each other.
Whether it's banter and wit have a similar sense of humor, whether it is physical attraction you just want to jump their bones and you can't help but kiss them and all the things.
That to me is chemistry.
And you want that.
But chemistry won't build the long-term relationship, the long-term partnership that some people want.
Not everyone.
Some people don't, but I loved your distinction between compatibility and similarity because I think that's to me.
That's the real hurdle for people Because I talk about this where me and my wife are just completely the opposite people in terms of we don't have a lot in common when it comes to likes and dislikes and things like that.
But from a values and vision point of view we respect and we don't even have directly the same values and vision, but we respect each other so much that it allows for a healthy relationship.
So my purpose, my work is my number one priority.
And my wife's is her family.
But I love when she spends time with her family and she loves seeing me pursue my purpose.
And therefore there isn't conflict.
Whereas...
If she said Jay, you have to give up your purpose to be with my family.
Or if I said well, you've got to give up your family to spend time with my purpose.
That wouldn't work for us.
And I find that to be a really common thing.
I hear from people where the biggest mistake you can make in a relationship is one of you wants the other person to change for them and the other person doesn't want you to change at all.
And the truth is, you're both gonna change, but not in the ways the other person wants you to.
You're just gonna become who you are gonna become.
And it's so interesting to me that I meet so many people who almost want their partner to play a very specific role in their life, not realizing that that human is evolving, growing and shifting themselves and is unlikely to do that.
There's a real opportunity to see beyond ourselves if we find that dynamic at play, where I need them to show up in this way.
They need to be just so.
That's black and white thinking.
It's limiting to you, it's limiting to the other person, and it's limiting to the relationship.
And that's hard to accept, because if you're outsourcing all of your needs, desires and wants onto another person, you're going to be disappointed.
And if you expect to be met in all the ways you want to be met all the time, you're going to be disappointed.
There has to be a bit of accountability there.
Where am I not taking care of myself?
Where am I not pursuing what I really want to spend my time, attention, and energy on?
There's probably a bit of that that's lacking, because if you expect someone else to do it for you to change in all the ways you want, that's a self-centered view.
And you can at the very least consider...
How important is everything that I'm asking for right now?
Could I live without this and still be okay and still be happy?
Maybe it's a season.
Maybe it's just a season.
People think love is supposed to carry them through decades and decades of relationship, just love, just the feeling that it should be peaceful and restful all of the time.
Sometimes it's work.
Some seasons are work where, hey, I really want this.
And they say I really don't, and your top value is your commitment to each other, then you're going to figure it out and that's probably going to be a stormy season.
But no one really likes hearing that, because it means we have to tolerate some disappointment and take some accountability, which doesn't always feel very good.
Is love enough?
Love the feeling or love the action?
You tell me.
Love the action is.
Because love as an action is willingness.
Willingness to find the color, the nuance, the balance.
Willingness to learn to love someone how they want to be loved, willingness to show up and be loving when you feel the least loving.
You know, people say, I would die for my partner.
I love them more than anything in this world.
I would literally lay down and die for them.
Okay, but would you put your phone down when they're telling you about your day?
Do you take their hand when you're walking down the sidewalk with them?
Do you notice when they come home from work and their mood is a little off?
Do you take the time to stop and ask them about it, to remember the little things that they tell you to care?
That's love.
That's love as an action.
That's what keeps connection.
Love as a feeling will be fleeting if we don't follow it through, follow it up with action.
So there is a difference between love the feeling and love the action.
I think so.
Do you?
Yeah, no, I agree.
I agree.
No, I never thought about it like that.
I think love the action requires so much more emotional intelligence and maturity than love the feeling.
I think I was in love when I was 16.
All the time.
All the time.
And I did not back that up with actions.
I think, going back to the piece about people changing, I think people change for people because they're so scared that that person has so many options.
So I'd rather change to be everything you want me to be, so that you don't leave me to find someone else.
But in that process I'll become someone I don't even recognize, because I didn't want to become that person at all.
And now you'll leave me anyway. because you can tell I'm not really authentically that person.
So it almost hurts twice one in unbecoming yourself and then in losing the other person anyway, because you didn't become who they needed you to be.
So many people today feel like there's plenty of fish in the sea.
There's so many options.
What do you do when you meet someone?
You like them, but you can tell that they have some detachment because they have this idea that there's plenty of fish in the sea and you're trying to hold on to them.
You can tell you're trying to hold on to them. knowing that they might ultimately let you go anyway?
Do you value commitment?
Do you value someone who also knows what they want?
If you have a...
If you have a clear vision of the kind of relationship you want, the way you want your relationship to feel consistent reliable warm fun, playful.
When you understand that, it becomes a lot easier to discern who's for you and who's not.
Someone who's still worried about all the other fish in the sea, who's easily distracted, that catches their eye.
That catches their eye and you feel like you have to To control them.
If it feels like you have to control them, it's not love.
And you can't build a relationship, a fulfilling relationship from that place.
So if you notice that they don't value the same things you do, they don't value commitment in the same ways, then they're probably not for you.
Because the last thing you want to do is chase after them, try and convince them to want the same things that you want.
And please, I'll show you how good it'll be if you'll just choose me.
Then you end up losing yourself in the very ways that you're trying to avoid in the first place.
It's always hard.
I always find that we're willing to tolerate bad behavior from someone we're really into versus someone we're kind of into.
And so when we say we want reliability, if the person we're really into doesn't message back, We'll be patient.
But if someone were kind of in two dozen message back, we're like, oh, red flag.
That was me.
That was... I mean, that was...
That was a childhood wound of, am I lovable?
Am I difficult to love?
Who do I have to become to get someone to choose me to pay attention to me, right?
So, ooh, you kind of like me.
You kind of are interested.
You kind of pay enough attention.
I'm going to get the other 50% of that attention from you.
I'm going to earn it.
I'm going to tolerate the hurt, the disrespect, because you're giving me a little bit of what I want and I'm going to prove it.
And then I'd get into relationships, fully chosen, stable love, very good people.
And I'd test them.
No, you don't.
I'm going to show you that I can rebel against it.
I'm going to show you that I'm hard to love so that then I can come back and earn it again.
That is a childhood wound that... doesn't heal until you take accountability for it.
It wasn't until I realized the pattern at play and I got sick of my own shit.
I got sick of the same hurt, the same anxiety, the same cycles.
It's like, I don't want this.
And then I took accountability and realized that the stability and the love that I was looking for was going to require me to make value-based decisions, first and foremost.
And really show up and support myself and soothe myself when I wanted to run or when I wanted to beg or when I wanted to.
To react, I had to learn to respond.
Little tidbit about me.
I was going to ask you, how bad did it have to get for you to take accountability?
I really lost myself chasing... the feeling of being chosen.
I'd given up on dreams, lost all confidence, tolerated just the worst possible behavior, just was a shell of myself, really and truly.
And when you reach that level and essentially rock bottom, you either have to pull yourself out or you realize how deep and dark it'll feel.
Until you find the courage.
And you don't want to live like that.
I didn't want to live like that.
I knew that there was an option and I knew it was going to be hard and I knew that it was going to take a hell of a lot of time.
Attention understanding, patience for myself.
But...
One of the best things.
One of the best things I've ever done.
A big piece of what actually got me into this work, quite frankly.
Tell me about that.
The pattern I was just talking about.
You know.
Choose me, see me.
What can I do to earn your attention?
That primarily came from my mother.
And my mother died of cancer back in 2019.
And there was something about her death that was so devastating and yet so healing because of the way we were able to repair before she passed.
So we got to have these conversations, peel back.
We were so honest, so honest.
And the safety and space it created, feeling seen and chosen and loved in such a way, even though it was the end.
There was something about that moment and obviously the journey of grief that came after that, that changed me to my core.
And this was all happening around the same time.
The feeling like I was at rock bottom the death of my mother.
There was so much going on there where I realized that I was looking for evidence to prove, confirm or deny the beliefs that I had learned in this mother-daughter dynamic growing up.
That I was hard to love, that I was difficult to love, that I needed to fight to be chosen.
I was looking for evidence to confirm that everywhere and it felt awful.
It felt awful.
So there was a bit of the love and support and honesty that I was able to find in these conversations with my mother, and then the work that I did after she passed to learn to show up for myself and no longer tolerate those beliefs, no longer take those beliefs as fact.
And that was really where the work was.
That's where the work came from.
First of all, sorry for your loss because it sounds like a really difficult time through everything that you just mentioned.
And at the same time, my question is, how useful was it to repair with her?
And could more of us heal our relationships with our future partners by repairing our relationships with our parents in any way?
If you have the option.
If you have the option, it's worth a try.
But you don't need to.
You don't need to.
And I was so blessed and so lucky to be able to number one have the time before she passed, because she was sick.
But for her to also have an open heart and an open mind to meet me there.
I know that that's not a luxury that everyone gets.
And that's really hard.
If anyone can relate to that.
I just want to acknowledge how there's a grief in and of that that you don't have a parent that will meet you in such a way.
You don't have a person of such importance that will meet you there.
But there absolutely is a process of a similar strategy I just explained that you can do on your own, which is meeting yourself in the ways you wish that parent would meet you.
What do you wish they would say?
What do you wish they would validate about you?
Because my guess is, what you wish they would validate about you are the same things you bring into those romantic relationships.
I wish you would accept me.
I wish you would just love.
I wish you would look at me and say, I'm so proud of you.
I see you.
There's probably a few flavors of that that show up in your conflict with your romantic partner, right?
And if you're with someone who is safe and loving and patient romantically, you can have some of these conversations with them.
Hey, I feel this way.
You know, maybe it came from mom or dad, maybe it didn't, but communicating that sharing, that that's how we grow in relationship is by bringing these beliefs.
What I'm hearing in this conversation.
I heard you just say that you don't love me and you don't care about this relationship.
And they look at you like...
I just told you that I was going to be home two hours late.
What are you?
I didn't.
What?
Right?
And that's where the understanding and the healing and the reprogramming really comes from.
But it takes a hell of a lot of vulnerability.
Yeah.
That's not always comfortable, but it's always worth it.
Yeah.
Always.
Always.
Yeah, one of my early experiences of love was I was overloved and then I was made to feel guilty for not reciprocating back at that level.
And so when I first started dating my wife, I would do exactly the same.
I would over love and then guilt her for not loving me in the same amount back.
Scoreboard.
Totally.
And her reaction was very human and eventually helpful, because my lover and there were so many other things that were so worthy of love that her reaction was just she pulled away.
Because she didn't understand.
Because at one point she'd be like, well, I didn't ask for you to over love me.
And then she'd be like but I am loving you, just not exactly perfectly in the way that you're saying it.
And because I believed her and because I believed there was truth to it.
I remember the moment the penny dropped for me, where I was like, oh my gosh, like this is exactly me repeating a pattern.
No wonder no one wants to.
And I saw my sister do the same.
And I just noticed how like that was how we were trained to love.
And I remember the moment I realized that, and I could find all these other patterns in how I love my wife in an unhealthy way.
It just transformed our entire relationship because now there wasn't any of that.
And it's so funny because I felt so righteous in that belief at the time that I was like I must be right.
Of course I'm right.
I'm the one who's doing everything.
Where did it turn?
Your realization.
When did it, was it something she said?
Well, it was her pulling away.
And it was almost like it kind of made the scoreboard not work.
Because in my relationship with love, if someone did that to me, I just turned up how they wanted me to turn up.
But what was the thing that helped you realize that it was a personal pattern?
The accountability of, oh shit, that's my stuff.
I think it ended up because it was so long ago now.
I believe it was probably ended up being a conversation where I think my wife said something to me like I just don't know what I could ever do to make you happy.
I'm like, I just don't know.
Even if I did this and I did this and I did that, I don't even know if it would ever be enough.
I think when she said that to me and I thought about it, I was like, yeah, I think she's right.
I don't think it would have.
Even if she did all those things that I said I wanted, or thought back, it would never be enough, because I'd just find something else.
And when I also started to realize that when I went above and beyond for her, it was never because she asked for it or wanted it, or even wanted the things I went above and beyond for.
So that was also self-inflicted.
And actually if I was more present and aware then maybe I'd meet her with where she wants and what she wants, almost like you, almost so like you could get love correct absolutely that I felt I had to earn it.
And so you're giving a lot, thinking that's how you get love, not realizing love was in the everyday and the little things and the beautiful things and the you know the things that are there.
And then, And then there was another conversation that we had.
This was a few years later.
That was really illuminating, was I said to her.
I feel like I'm always planning our vacations.
And I do all the planning and the detail and everything.
And it's almost like, I don't feel like I get the break.
And she was like, I'm more than happy to plan it.
But the difference is she was like, when you plan something, I'll happily do whatever you plan.
But when I plan something, you'll have a hundred things, you'll find wrong with it and you'll be unhappy about it.
And that really hit me because I was like, God, she's so right.
Like that's exactly what I would do.
I would be upset at the schedule and the timeline and everything, because I have a viewpoint on how it should be done.
And therefore she allows me to plan it because she knows I'll be happier that way on both accounts.
But so it's so interesting how so much of it is self-inflicted, because I found, the more I take responsibility for how I need to change.
And the more she takes responsibility for how she needs to change, the better our relationship gets, rather than her telling me how I need to change and me telling her how she needs to change.
Well, and what a comment.
I call it the criticism and withdrawal loop.
One person says, I want more.
The other person says, why is nothing that I do ever enough?
And that can quickly spiral.
Taking your story, for example.
Hey, I always plan these things.
I would love it if you would plan the vacations more.
She could easily say, I threw out this idea last time and you shut me down.
And I tried to throw out this idea before and you won't go for it.
Nothing I ever do is not.
Where do you want me to go with this?
Yeah.
And it turns into this spiral.
And then after that, there's a withdrawal.
Or the criticism gets louder.
I told you, you didn't plan this last vacation.
And you know what?
You haven't planned any date nights either.
It all falls on me.
What's really being communicated is, hey, can I share this mental load?
Can we share in the emotional labor here a little bit?
Can you show up and can you help?
Can I get some support?
Can I feel your connection?
Right?
That would mean a lot to me.
And I'm a little overwhelmed.
I feel like I can't quite find the right words or the right thing.
And it feels like you don't accept me.
Like you don't.
Like nothing I do is valued.
Same driving intention, very different ways to approach the conversation.
Yeah.
Right?
So our ability to understand why something is bothering us and communicate that is paramount.
Mm-hmm.
In addition, being able to listen in for the intention, even if your partner can't explicitly communicate it is also really important.
Maybe you and Roddy can give everyone a masterclass.
No, I think we both generally just you know it's been, I think for us generally they've been very healthy partners conversations because we both have a similar understanding of not raising voices, not getting angry.
We both have a good set of rules that I think we set early on what we wanted conflict to look like or disagreements to look like.
Did you know to pick someone with such a temperament?
Was it apparent when you first met each other, or was that something that was communicated or happened just coincidentally?
I think I got lucky at the start and then became more conscious of as we got more serious and have become even more grateful as years have gone by.
And so I think there was a bit of luck in the beginning and then consciously developing it, naturally drawn to her temperament, maybe.
For sure, for sure yeah way yeah, there's definitely that there was a natural draw, but it was an unconscious experience in the beginning.
Then became more conscious and focused and developed and And I always think that it's like you can get a lot of things right without knowing, but then, once you know, it's good to focus on getting them better.
Yes.
But I wanted to ask you this question.
You say one of my favorite things that you say.
You said in a video that you can tell how much you love yourself by the partner that you've chosen.
Tell me about it.
Well, I pose it as a question because...
If you hear someone say in the video I think you're referring to, how would you feel if someone said that they can tell how much you love yourself by the partner that you've chosen?
Does that feel like a compliment or an insult?
And what that really distills down to.
I'm not passing a judgment on your relationship, but the way you feel about that question can offer a lot of insight.
Have you tolerated treatment that really, really doesn't feel great.
It doesn't really feel loving.
It's not what someone would put up with if they loved themselves.
Or, man, I've chosen a really patient, loving, incredible person.
You know, some part of me must like myself enough to choose someone who loves me in such a way.
It's really, really mostly about reflection.
What is it that we're choosing?
And am I making decisions, building relationships, investing in relationships that reflect love, love for myself and back to the values.
You know, am I making decision based on my values or am I stagnant?
Am I complacent?
Am I participating in this negative dynamic as well?
It's really about reflection and seeing what comes up for people.
Yeah, it's a great reflection.
Such a great question.
And it's a great way if you're dating right now to really make the right shifts and changes.
Absolutely.
And if you're married and you feel like you made the wrong decision, what would you do?
If someone's listening to that and they're going whew, like I'm listening to you right now.
Q, and that feels tough because my partner's not present.
I know they love me, but I'm not sure we, I think we lost it somewhere along the way.
What would you say to them?
I love that distinction too.
I say dating is about discernment.
Marriage is about devotion.
Not the other way around.
Say that again.
Dating is about discernment, not devotion.
Devotion is to be saved for marriage or long-term relationships, long-term partnerships.
That's important as you're making decisions.
But what I would say to someone who's realizing that maybe their relationship dynamic is not as loving as they would want it to be?
First things first, take a look at your side of the street.
That doesn't mean it's your fault.
This is not a blame game.
But if you envision the kind of relationship you want with your husband, with your wife, with your partner, What does it consist of?
And how can you add more of that now?
How can you be the first to add, to try?
How can you show up as the partner you want to be?
Where's the appreciation for the ways that they are making effort?
It's really easy to get sucked into a disappointment spiral.
You go down the rabbit hole and all you can see are the things that they aren't doing, the things they're doing wrong, the ways that they aren't showing up.
Pull yourself out of that.
Mm-hmm.
If you want your relationship to work, you have to pull yourself out of that.
Even if you choose to leave, don't choose to leave in the bottom of the disappointment spiral.
Anyway, clean up your side of the street and go first.
Great advice, yeah.
That's what I would say.
The follow up to that is have a conversation with your spouse.
Hey, I want more of this because I love you.
I feel really distant.
I feel really lonely.
We both have a lot going on.
Can we come up with a plan to reconnect?
What do you want more of?
Here's what I want more of.
Can we get on board?
It doesn't have to be... so humdrum, you know, negative, oh, we have to fix this.
It can be an exciting thing if you want it to be.
And if you come with the right energy and if it is the right person, then they'll at least try to meet you there.
Yeah.
What's the difference between keeping someone accountable and trying to change them?
I don't think you can keep people accountable.
I don't really believe that it's possible.
Or hold someone accountable.
If you're with someone who's really lacking consistency, they're not really following through on their word and you're thinking I need a little bit more here.
They're not taking initiative.
I can't trust them to do what they say that they're going to do.
You can bring that up.
This is what I'm noticing.
I'm finding it hard to rely on you because you haven't done the things that you said that you were going to do.
I mean, can we talk about this?
And if they say I want to be a more consistent, reliable person.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Great.
Now they want to make that change.
You've brought it to light.
It is on them to make the change.
You can lovingly, hey, again, this thing didn't get done, but the buck stops there.
You can't be breathing down their neck.
You definitely don't want to meet them with criticism or constant disappointment.
People don't actually change from that place.
So true.
So if they want to make the change themselves, great, beautiful, the onus is on them.
You can be loving and supportive in the process, but I don't believe that we can really hold people accountable and we definitely can't force them to change.
I fully agree.
And I think the hardest part of it is you know how hard it is to change yourself.
So even when someone says they want to change themselves, you've got to realize how hard that is right.
You may have your partner say to you, yeah, I really do want to work out and get in the gym more.
And then they're never in the gym.
They're always watching sport.
They're hanging out, whatever it is.
You know how hard that is to do.
And so it's such an interesting dynamic because we almost think change should be really easy for other people, knowing that it's really hard for ourselves.
And then when they don't change, we're upset or disappointed in them.
And if you just thought for a second about how hard it is to change yourself and build good habits yourself, I think you'd have more empathy and compassion for someone else.
That's how I see it at least.
We tend to judge ourselves by our intentions and we tend to judge others by their actions or their follow through or the result of their thing right.
So I meant to go to the gym five days this week.
I really only made it once, but I intended to.
I had a lot going on.
My intentions were good.
I tried.
They don't go to the gym five times a week.
They only go once and suddenly it's a reflection of their character, right?
They're unreliable.
They lack discipline.
They aren't motivated. hold on here, let's find the color amongst all this black and white thinking.
I totally agree.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's the toughest one I see.
I always just feel like And that's why I love that you said start on your side of the street, because I think a lot of relationship, language and podcasting and conversations right now are all about how do you spot if someone's good.
And I'm just like oh, it's a dangerous game to play because in that scenario you're always the detective and the secret agent and the other person's always the villain in some way.
And while that can be true in certain cases where there's extremes, the reality is most of us are all flawed and making mistakes at the same time.
And if you want a peaceful, emotionally intelligent person with all of these traits, that are wonderful.
I'd love that for you.
You have to be the other half of that relationship, right?
You also want to be patient and calm.
Slow to conflict, kind with your words, even when you're frustrated.
You can handle some disappointment and you're...
You want to be the other half of that loving relationship.
It's not going to come from focusing on all the red flags you need to look out for and all the things that, the specific ways they need to show up to prove to you that they are who they say that they are.
Focus on your side of the street.
Focus on being the other half of this relationship that you want so badly, rather than trying to figure out the quick fixes to avoid all of the bad fish in the sea.
It's a waste of time in my opinion.
You said in one of your videos, the only people who are upset with your boundaries are the very same people who directly benefit from you not having any.
I love that.
Can you explain?
Someone who loves you wants you to have boundaries.
Someone who loves you wants there to be limits on what you will and won't tolerate, what you have capacity for or don't have capacity for.
That is necessary. someone who loves you, and better yet, someone you want in your life.
We can argue all day, do they love me or do they not?
If they're disrespecting your boundaries, you probably don't want them to have much access to you energetically, emotionally.
At the end of the day, boundaries aren't designed to keep people out.
They aren't designed to hurt anyone's feelings.
They're designed to maintain your... finite amount of energy and attention, right?
I can't say yes to everything.
I can't say yes to everything and still show up in the ways that I want to show up, keep the character and integrity that I really like about myself.
There's no way to do that.
Someone who loves me is going to encourage that and respect that.
And the people who benefit from you not having it, the people who want to take more from you, who want more and more and more, who are more self-centered.
They won't care.
They won't care if it's good for you or bad for you or not.
They're more focused on themselves, and that's disrespectful.
That's not loving, and that's not someone who should have an infinite amount of access to you.
How do you set an effective boundary?
Because I think we've got used to the language, but we don't really know how to do it.
We think that a boundary protects you from other people, But really a boundary is something that protects you from yourself and your natural triggers or ways of behavior.
So how do we set a behavior that protects us rather than trying to keep other people out?
A boundary is I will or won't blank if blank.
I will or won't blank if blank.
So that means it is all within your control.
I won't participate in this conversation if you yell at me again.
I won't.
I'm going to have to walk away.
Yeah, and you're not saying that to them.
You need to know that as well.
Either or, right?
I don't want to participate in a relationship with someone who lies to me.
I won't.
I will not.
You need to know that for yourself.
Absolutely.
You can share these things with other people.
Back to the conversation with difficult parents, contentious relationships with your parents.
You know, I really value our relationship, but...
I won't stay if you keep talking to me that way.
If you keep bringing up that issue, I'm going to walk away.
I will blank if blank is a boundary.
Not you can't blank, blank, blank.
Not you better not.
It's not a threat.
It's a rule for yourself.
And your boundaries are for you to respect.
And that's the hardest part, right?
I feel like we compromise our own boundaries.
So we say things like I won't participate in this conversation if you lie to me, but then we continue to participate because it's not really a boundary.
It's hoping they won't lie to you.
But we're saying it, hoping you'll stop lying if I threaten you.
But you just said it's not a threat, It's a boundary.
If we recognize I have to leave now.
So if you're lying I now have to walk away.
But we don't want to do that because we're hoping they change.
Yes.
So it's like a secret hidden hope as opposed to a boundary.
The manipulation that you just kind of described, like I'm going to say that I won't tolerate it, but then, if you actually do it, then I will say because what I'm really trying to get is you to show up for me and trying to get you to love me.
So I'm going to mix in this threat.
That's a hell of a lot of manipulation, rather than having your own back like really respecting yourself enough to say I will not tolerate this.
My self-respect is not worth the emotional turmoil that comes from allowing this kind of behavior.
That's really hard.
That's really hard.
You have to choose your self-respect over your desire to be chosen or your desire to not be alone.
That's paramount.
Absolutely.
Is there such a thing as the one or a soulmate?
The one is the one that you choose.
The one is the person whose natural essence complements yours in a way that that makes love and growth a little bit easier.
A little bit, right?
It's a little bit.
Sometimes it's still hard.
But ideally, you choose well.
You use discernment in the beginning.
You admire someone's integrity.
You really respect them.
You really cherish them.
You like them, which is often an overlooked one.
You know, he's this tall and makes this much money, so he'll be the one.
Well, okay, but do you like the guy?
You know, it's really important.
And then you build the relationship from there, respecting the other person, respecting yourself and again creating this third entity.
One thing I also think is overlooked when it comes to choosing the one and being the one.
This works for both sides.
You need to be your partner, your person's biggest fan.
I mean that with my whole heart.
You need to be your partner's biggest fan.
And if you can't, then you either need to check in on your insecurities.
You either need to pay attention or you've chosen the wrong person.
If you don't want their dreams to come true, if you don't want them to succeed, if you don't want them to be their happiest, best self, do not promise to spend a lifetime with them.
I really, really think that that's important and not talked about enough.
I don't hear that very much.
We talk about the conflict stuff, right?
We talk about how to handle boundaries and how to do all of that.
But You want someone in your corner.
You want someone in your corner on your worst days, on your best days, and you want to feel like you're on the same team.
And I deeply believe you need to be your person's biggest fan and that contributes to them being the one and building the right relationship.
When you were saying that, it was reminding me of wedding vows.
And I was thinking about how we spend so long planning a wedding and not building a marriage, and just the discrepancy between the two, even how long you'll take to write your vows.
But then to live up to those vows takes a whole different set of skills.
And we don't really put that much effort into building those skills and working on those parts.
Maintaining those skills.
Maintaining those skills.
How do you know if you're in love with someone or just the idea of them?
How do you know if you're in love with someone or just the idea of them?
Is there a difference between how you wish they would be and how they actually are?
How wide is that gap?
How much of the relationship do you actually enjoy versus how much time are you spending trying to change them, trying to change the dynamic?
I like to say...
If you allow your person to be exactly who they wanna be, without molding them, without controlling them, without micromanaging them, but you allow them to show up just as they are, does that help you feel more or less like the person you want to be?
Does that feel more or less like the kind of relationship you want to be in?
And it doesn't mean it's perfect.
It doesn't mean it's all the time.
But if you, it doesn't mean that they won't change.
It doesn't mean you can't change.
But if you really allow them to be, if you accept them for exactly who they are, does that help or hinder?
Change what you want love to feel like?
That's one question to ask.
Yeah, that's a great question.
I love that question.
It's such an important question because that is who you're with 90% of the time.
And that is what you'll experience.
And Yeah, if you're in love with the idea of them, then you're absolutely right.
Your answer to that question will be no.
Because I want them to be a bit more this, a bit more that, a bit more this.
And do you need a bit more?
Is that bit more that you're missing really, really important to you?
If it is, by all means, do what you got to do.
But I think a lot of times we fool ourselves into thinking that the little bits that we're missing are make or breaks.
And we forget that loving someone is such an honor.
And this is more so geared towards long-term relationships, marriages of sorts.
But it's a real honor to be able to love someone through several seasons of their life.
To be able to be their support system, to be the smiling face that picks them up on a day when they feel shitty to be there, when they lose someone that they love or they lose an opportunity or they hit their highest high.
To sit with them on a Sunday night on the couch every Sunday for years and years.
I mean, it's an honor to love someone and to be there.
And sometimes I just think we need to reframe the way that we view the person we're with as whole human, all on their own, that we get the honor to love, and And that tends to clear out a lot of the little bits that we aren't getting.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
You look at that person and you think, my God, I really do love them.
Look at the way that they do the dishes or tie their shoes.
I love the way that they drive, the way they dance to music.
I love to watch them get ready and do their morning routine or whatever.
You just look at that human and remember that it's an honor to love them.
And maybe that'll clear out some of the bits that you're missing.
Yeah.
What do you wish people asked themselves before they got married?
Do I want to be a partner or do I want a spouse?
And the difference there is when you want to be a partner, when you want to be someone's support system, when you want to be the co-creator of the marriage that you're about to step into, the life that you're going to build.
There's accountability and responsibility in that.
And it really allows you to focus on what you can control, which is how you show up.
Now, assuming you're walking to that altar and you know this person pretty damn well and you've spent a good long time seeing who they are, understanding their heart, really caring for them, all of that, you're going to have to remember this that sometimes the best you can do is show up as the partner you want to be, that you want to be, even if your seasons are misaligned.
Matthew McConaughey has this great bit in a podcast that he did where he says sometimes you're walking and they're running, and sometimes you're running and they're walking.
And you just have to make sure that one doesn't get too far ahead of the other.
And I love that.
Yeah.
I love him.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that too.
I think that's well said.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it's about how you communicate when you are that.
I've always thought about it as...
Sometimes me and my wife are driving to the same event, but we're driving separately.
She's going to get there early and I'm going to be late.
And so I'm on the phone.
I'm like, hey, I'm going to be late.
And she's like, well, I'm going to be early.
And I'm like, okay, well, do you want to wait for me because you want to go in together?
Or do you want to go in without me and I'll follow you in there?
And she's like, no, I want to wait for you to go in there together.
And it's like you're both driving separately, but you're talking to each other the whole time about where you're at.
And that's that conversation that calms you both down, rather than you have no idea what time that person's getting there.
One of the challenges, I find, is that everyone wants to.
A lot of what I hear is people want their partner to talk to them more emotionally and tell them more.
And there's a lot of people who don't want to do that or don't know how to do that or don't feel the need for it.
And the person who wants to talk kind of gets a bit annoyed and frustrated and upset that their partner won't talk.
What's your advice in that scenario?
What's the loving thing to do?
Hmm.
And that probably requires both sides of the aisle to adjust a little bit.
You're not going to get perfect words all the time.
It's not going to happen.
And you're going to have to give imperfect words a lot of the time.
You're going to have to try it.
My aunt and uncle... are in their mid-70s, early 70s.
They've been married for 25, 30 years, something like that.
And we were just having a conversation the other night.
I was asking... my uncle John, I said, what is your secret to the... What's the magic?
How has this happened?
They're probably the happiest couple I know.
Incredible.
And he said...
She tells me what she wants to hear, and I repeat it back to her.
And he meant, Jay, he meant it with his full chest.
I've seen them do it.
My Aunt Beth will say, I need you to tell me that this is going to be okay.
You hear me, you've got my back, and you've got it covered.
And he will recite it right back to her word for word.
And they say, okay, I love you.
And leave it there.
And some people will think but if I have to say it, if I have to tell them what to say, it doesn't matter.
It erodes the value and this, that, and the other.
If your person is asking to be loved in a specific way, put your stuff aside and show up to the best of your ability.
It will not be perfect all the time.
It sure as hell won't.
But do the loving thing.
And that is typically to show up in the ways that your partner is explicitly asking you to.
If you want bonus points, anticipate some of those needs, right?
Pay attention and try to do it without having to be asked.
But don't knock the direct communication and then choosing the loving thing to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How do you start to trust yourself again when someone breaks up with you that you thought you were going to be with for a long time?
Well, step one, grieve.
The other is an acute phase of heartbreak where you don't have to do anything right or well.
You can just be.
That's step number one, especially if it's a a breakup after a long, long relationship.
The next step is reflection.
You know, right now, the story might be, they left me.
They didn't love me.
All those years were wasted.
How could I have done that?
I should have known, right?
I must be disposable.
It's a lot.
That's harsh.
There's more color in that story.
So what were some of the red flags or some of the even just the disconnection, the things that weren't working?
Take some accountability in that.
You know, I didn't communicate as well as I really wish that I would have.
Or you know what?
I stayed way too long because I tried to communicate and that person wasn't meeting me.
That was really difficult.
Because I can tell you one thing, the person who is for you is the person who wants to be with you.
Mm-hmm.
If they aren't willing to try, they're definitely not your person.
And I think that most things, most relationships can be worked out if two people are willing.
If you want it to, barring some extreme cases.
But if they're not willing, they're not your person.
Now, when it comes to moving on specifically, I always say stop trying.
Because we think that if okay, if I just do all of these steps, I have to do this in the morning and this at night, and this is my evening routine, and then I'll wake up at some day and I'll be moved on as if it's a destination.
I say, imagine yourself tomorrow morning, you wake up and you get what you wanted.
You want to move on.
You want to trust yourself again.
If you knew for certain that you would wake up tomorrow and that was your reality what would you do with yourself?
Oh, that's such a good question.
What would you think about?
How would you spend your time?
What would you invest your energy into?
Who would you spend your time with?
What would you think about?
What would you talk about?
And then just start to do some of those things.
Bring the grief with you.
It's probably not going to happen as fast as you want it to, but you want a direction.
You want a clearer vision of where you're going so that you can head in that direction.
Yeah, so good.
That's such a good answer because...
Yeah, all the little tips and tricks to try and move on quick, it doesn't process like that.
And I love the idea of what would your life look like if you'd already moved on, because that's what you're waiting for.
You're waiting for that anyway.
You're waiting for the day you've moved on and you can say, I'm over it and I'm ready for whatever.
What is it?
What does that look like?
And start mirroring that today.
That's brilliant.
You want the thing, right?
I just want to move on.
What does that even mean to you?
Like, let's define it.
That gives you something to move towards, which is so important.
And moving on doesn't even necessarily mean that you don't care.
You might still care.
You might care about that person for the rest of your life.
But you want to build whatever your next chapter is to be as enjoyable and intentional as possible.
Yes.
And that gives you somewhere to go.
Yes.
And mostly, I was coaching someone earlier this year and they were going through a breakup.
And the first month they broke up, they talked about it every day.
The second month after they broke up, they talked about every other day.
The third month, they talked about it every three days.
The fourth month, they talked about it once a week.
And then the fifth month, they thought about it once a month.
And I had to remind them of that because to them every reminder was as sharp as remembering it every day.
And I like people to think about it like that.
You're not trying to get to a point where tomorrow you don't think about it at all.
You're just thinking about it less, because your life looks like how you want it to be and what it would be like if you were free.
And I've always thought about that mindset.
Even when you think about physical pain, If you want to wake up tomorrow and you've had surgery or you're hurt or whatever and you want to be completely healed, it will never happen.
You'll only ever be 1% better if you did all the right things.
And as soon as you accept that all I need to do is be 1 better today, all of a sudden you see that progress.
But when you're looking to be 100% better and you aren't, now you feel 99% behind.
And it just becomes so amplified.
And that's what it feels like to be wanting to heal from a breakup.
And you're constantly feeling on, why haven't I healed yet?
That's that 90%.
And oftentimes there are beliefs, almost identities, that we find ourselves wrestling with when a breakup happens.
No one will choose me.
I'm never good enough.
Nothing that I do is good enough.
No one will stay.
It was all my fault or it was all their fault.
How could they?
And we find these absolutes that are really, really difficult to do anything productive with.
Truly.
I mean, it doesn't make you feel better emotionally.
You can't really move yourself forward from there.
And that's what I say about just be malleable with the story.
Mm-hmm. for a while, for the first month, for the first week, add a maybe.
Add a question mark to the end of that.
Like I'm difficult to love, question mark.
Just don't wrestle with the absolutes.
Give yourself time and space to consider another narrative because I promise you there's color.
There's nuance in that.
They didn't leave because you're hard to love.
Someone choosing not to love you is not a reflection of how lovable or unlovable you are.
So you know that.
Don't wrestle with the absolute.
Give yourself time and space would be another piece of advice.
I like the question mark.
That's good.
Yeah.
It's true.
It's true.
It's totally true.
It's totally true.
I love that.
Q, have you ever had your heart broken?
Many times.
In many different ways.
Yeah.
And it's...
I have an interesting relationship with grief now.
And in part, of course, my mom is a big part of that.
But losing relationships and growing through heartbreak has always been a catalyst for me.
And I don't say that as, like, I'm so high and mighty and this is so impressive.
No, it's usually quite ugly.
And it's usually quite messy to really look at yourself and put the pieces back together and try to move on.
But I've always come out the other side liking myself more.
Yeah. accepting uglier parts of myself that I don't think I accepted previously.
Because you got to take a real look at why you did what you did, how you showed up the people that you chose.
And sometimes that means accepting like, man, I've been...
I haven't been making the best choices.
And you have to love that.
You have to accept that.
And it expands your capacity in a way that allows for the emotional flexibility we were talking about earlier.
Where the deepest heartbreak?
Losing my mom, losing people that I thought I would spend the rest of my life with, losing.
That makes everything else a little bit easier to process.
If I can survive that, I can survive a lot, a lot.
And I've been there through all of that.
I've picked myself back up.
I've built a support system of people who remind me of that when I forget, right?
But I really learned to like myself.
I really learned to trust myself.
And I really learned that There can be beauty in the mess if you stay put and go through it long enough to find the bigger story, the bigger meaning, the bigger narrative.
Q, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five.
These five questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
And so Q, these are your final five.
The first question is, what is the best love advice you've ever heard or received?
Do the loving thing.
Comma and choose appreciation.
I love it.
You can do that.
That's fine.
Commas are fine.
That was very well done.
Second question.
What is the worst love advice you've ever heard or received?
Match their energy.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
That's the reality.
Matching someone's energy means you're handing over your power.
Your power is in how you respond.
Your power is in your intention.
Are you going to add more negativity to a situation you already don't like?
Maybe you can choose how you want to respond rather than matching someone's energy.
And even more so, maybe your love.
Your decision to meet them in a way that they can't seem to meet themselves in that moment is exactly what they need.
Love that.
I always say to people you don't mess up your living room just because someone messy is coming over.
You just don't do that.
It's like I'm not going to match that energy, because then I'm going to start walking over my rugs with my dirty shoes.
And why would I do that just because someone's coming over?
It's like, no, they're a messy person.
That's fine.
That's their mind and their space.
And I'm not going to mess up my mind because we're interacting.
It's a very inauthentic way to move through the world, to build relationships.
Absolutely.
Question number three what did you used to believe to be true about love and romance that you don't anymore?
I used to believe that love the feeling was enough.
It's fantastical.
It's alluring, right?
That someone will show up and your whole life will be better, everything.
You'll be whisked away by their love and live happily ever after.
That's not a story that you really want.
You want to build a relationship intentionally.
You want to choose to give love and to build love and to build this relationship intentionally.
And sometimes it takes those shitty moments, those really tough moments, to remind you how much you value the really good moments.
And I think if love was just a feeling, we would miss a lot of that.
Love is consideration, the action, the willingness to continue showing up and creating more of it.
Love that.
Question number four what's something that you used to value that you don't value anymore being understood?
People can really only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves, which means that some people simply won't have the ability to understand you, and that's okay.
You don't need to fight to be heard, to be seen, to be approved of.
Sometimes it's just okay to say, we don't agree.
I don't think you understand.
And let it be.
Love that.
Okay, fifth and final question we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show.
If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
To live within your integrity.
To decide...
For each person individually, what is right to you?
What kind of person do you want to be?
What is true for you?
Your truth?
What kind of person do you strive to be?
So much so that it feels in your bones, in your heart, just right.
Mm-hmm.
I wish it was a law that everyone had to figure out what that meant to them.
And then they had to act on it consistently.
Because I really believe that most, if not all of us, would choose to be good people.
Yeah, would choose to make value-based decisions, kind decisions, loving decisions, not fear-based hurtful, destructive decisions.
I really believe that if we were all living within integrity, if we had the courage to understand that for ourselves, that we would do a lot of good.
Yeah.
I love that.
That would be our law.
Q, thank you so much.
Everyone who's been listening and watching, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're driving to or from work, whether you're cooking.
I'm so grateful that you joined us.
Please make sure that you follow Quinlan Welfare on social media, across platforms.
I want to know what resonated with you.
I want to know what connected with you.
So tag us both, take the clips, post them.
Let us know what resonated, what really got through to you.
Share this with a friend who may be going through a breakup issue, maybe moving in with someone.
Maybe a friend's getting married soon.
This could be one of those episodes that I think you can listen to, your friends and family can listen to and connect with, no matter where they are on their love and romance journey.
And again, Q, thank you so much for showing up so authentically.
It was so great to just go back and forth with you and dissect so many different themes and topics.
I'm so grateful to spend time with you and I can't wait to have you back.
Thank you, Jay.
Such a pleasure.
Appreciate it.
Hey, everyone.
If you loved that conversation, go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist, Laurie Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when it comes to love relationships, heartbreak and dating.
If you're trying to figure out that space right now, you won't want to miss this conversation.
If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands.
It's really hard to argue.
It actually calms your nervous systems.
Just hold hands as you're having the conversation.
It's so lovely.
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