19 years ago, it's not like today.
It's cool not to be gay, or curious, or whatever it is you are.
But back then, it was really shameful.
What you are about to hear is a classic session of where should we begin with Esther Perel.
None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's.
And each episode is a one -time counseling session.
For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed.
But their voices and their stories are real.
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We've been now 19 years together, and I still struggle with saying I'm gay, holding hands in public, like it still bothers me.
It's always kind of felt like she's been ashamed of me or our relationship.
This is a couple that is organized around a secret.
You know, my thought was not to get divorced, and then the next day, have her like move into the house.
She said, I don't want him going out the front door and you're coming in the back.
A secret means I can't talk about this thing, but then I can't talk about the next thing because it could lead back to this thing.
And so it starts to grow inside a family, and it becomes a code of conduct.
I walk on eggshells around here because she has a lot of frustration with me.
We have no sexual relationship at all and have it for a long time, and there's just a lot of resentment and guilt.
Shame and secrecy are among the more corrosive elements of a relationship and of a family.
And it is time for some of the secrecy and some of the silencing to be removed.
This is Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel.
I was married and I have two kids, and we met 10 plus years into my marriage, and then we were friends for probably almost a year, and you were friends with my ex -husband, and our friendship kind of turned into a relationship and stayed that way for a long time, for seven, eight years.
I kind of was a soccer mom, living in the suburbs with kids and my ex - Can I plead cultural ignorance for one moment?
What's a soccer mom?
Oh, so my kids both played soccer.
So like every Saturday I'd be at the soccer fields and I'd be involved just in all their activities and be with all the other moms.
A soccer mom is a woman who has forgotten that she's a woman and she's only a mother?
I think just that kids are a huge part, right?
So like all their activities in school and - So she's a mom?
Yeah. Okay. And then our relationship was kind of like the download kind of thing.
Like it was like two lives.
I was living for a really long time.
Balancing, trying to make everybody happy.
So like keeping my ex -husband and kids happy and then keeping her happy and feeling very guilty because of what I was doing.
Still you are? Yeah, no, there's a lot of guilt.
He never knew, but he probably knew.
And eventually he said that he was ready to separate and get a divorce.
And as soon as he gave me that out, I took it.
You know, my thought was not to get divorced and then the next day have her like move into the house.
Like I wanted to be able to - She said, I don't want him going out the front door and you're coming in the back.
Yeah. But you had already come through the front door.
And the back. For eight years.
Yeah. And every other window.
You were inhabiting this house in every place.
Why suddenly the pretense?
I think I was just trying to justify in my head that I wasn't getting divorced for her.
I was getting divorced because I wasn't in love with him anymore.
Explain the difference for me.
What would it represent to say, I don't love my husband anymore.
And what would it represent to say, I love this woman?
I just had a lot of guilt and a lot of shame.
And I think I still do to this day.
Would it be different if this was a man?
Yeah, probably a little bit.
More shame, less shame, different shame?
Probably, well, probably about the same.
I mean, hindsight's kind of 20 -20 that I did realize that I was attracted to women.
You know, I got married very young.
When you look back, do you think there was a part of you that sought to seal, to conceal even from yourself, a part of you that was very scary?
And that if you went with all the accoutrements of the sanctioned official life that you were meant to have, then somehow, You know, I didn't know.
You forget about yourself as a woman and your sexuality and your attractions?
Probably, yes. Like, I didn't ever question, even in college or anything, I just...
Some questions are not allowed.
It wasn't anything I thought about.
I just, I kind of did what I was supposed to do, kind of thing.
There may have been personal and familial reasons for why she had to hide, but clearly there was also a very strong message in society that set her up for the shame and for the hiding about her sexuality.
And so, our survival strategies are adaptations to a reality.
It's just that when we continue doing the same 20 years later, when our reality has completely shifted, then our strategy is no longer adaptive.
She stuck around and waited for me until I was ready and...
Eight years? That's a long time waiting.
I know. And I just...
I still have such a hard time with that.
It just was a long time of lying.
So, a part of you still experiences a lot of conflicts about your origins together?
Mm -hmm. Yes. And until the origin story can be retold, you will always feel compromised when you think about the future.
Yes, probably yes. I should finish with a question mark.
It's not a statement, it's a question.
But you talk about the origin story as if it was yesterday.
It still bothers me.
I have a hard time even.
We've been now 19 years together and I still struggle with saying I'm gay, saying, you know, holding hands in public.
Like, I just... It's all me, I know it's me.
It's just, I don't know, I just...
And then I tell people, like, I have two great girls and they're happy and successful.
And they have no problem saying my mom is gay.
We never, you know, I had initial conversations with them way back when you moved in and that just never really came up again.
It was like... You were - The older one was surprised.
She thought I was just best friend.
For how long? Eight years until she...
Yes, but now. Oh, now they know.
I mean, now they...
Oh, yeah. But we just, it's just not something we talk about, I mean, they know and they know that...
But the younger one, she was okay because she went to school with triplets that had two moms.
And she, I think they don't consider...
I mean, I guess they do like a mom.
I don't know. Okay, so, so far she says, I, me, my, my house, my kids.
There's not a lot of plurality in any of this.
You noticed. Oh, yeah.
So, for the whole eight years that he waited when he was at work or he was at school or he was doing whatever, and I would be over doing homework, we'd eat dinner, I'd read books, I'd tuck them in.
I did all that stuff.
The younger one will say to me now, for example, happy other mothers day.
And I'm like, yes, I have a title.
I'm another mother.
I love them like they're mine.
And... And they have never known how to call you because you have actually never been named by you.
Right. What's happening is, there's a part of you that is conflicted.
And so you don't talk about certain things and you think that if you don't talk about them, they don't exist.
So you've never talked about who you are with your ex -husband.
You've never talked to your daughters.
And I could imagine if I speak with them, they'll tell me, my mom lives with her girlfriend, her lesbian couple, it's a non -issue for them.
But since you've never given them the authorization, things remain unnamed.
And then you create this interesting question of what makes a mother, the person who gives birth or the person who parents them?
At what point do you actually become a parent, a mother?
And the name is one thing, the meaning is something else.
And the meaning is what conveys the legitimacy of the relationship.
And in a way, your partner has been in a crisis of legitimacy from the moment she met you.
You've never really officialized her.
Yes. And I think the one who needs officializing is you.
It's like you need a coming out ceremony.
At 50. You know, it's your bat mitzvah.
I feel like though, I would have to tell the full story to my girls.
Very few people know about the eight years, you know?
And everybody's in a good place.
Like, he's happy. Do you think that everybody's in a good place.
You've got a woman sitting right next to you who is not in enough of a good place.
Neither are you for that matter.
I think about the girls.
And I feel like if I was to tell them.
You think they haven't answered the question, what was this woman doing in their house all the years before?
I don't know. I mean, yes?
No, no, it's because you are in such denial that you attribute the same denial to them.
Yeah. I'm not saying you should go and tell them anything yet.
But you have a story in your head that anything that moves would lead you to the big revelation of your debauchery of eight years to your daughter's and then you get into a panic attack.
And then you choke as you're doing right now.
And then the story and the conversation is over.
And so this is clogged.
Yes. Yes, I've just, I've always been so concerned about what other people think about me that I want everybody to just be happy.
And I feel like if I don't.
May I interject? You asked her.
May I interject? Are you the expert on her history?
No, I just wanted to throw a little.
So for example, when her father's been in the hospital, he doesn't tell her until he's home.
Like nothing bad ever happens till it's fixed already.
I had breast cancer at age 40 and has still never told my father.
I even didn't tell my girls till after I kind of knew what was going to happen.
I feel like why worry him or anybody because I have her and she was there and took amazing care of me.
That is the way you talk to yourself day in, day out.
Yeah. And in the course of not talking about that, you talk about nothing and you've never even been able to say it.
I had a love story.
Your thought is I cheated on my husband for eight years and I feel terrible, but there's also, I had this woman who I loved dearly and who waited for me and I couldn't believe that she stuck around and it's been the biggest gift in my life.
So that gets banned too.
Yeah. I don't know.
It's hard to tell a story that doesn't make you feel good, that I feel shameful for.
Pieces of it. Pieces of it.
So you need to learn to incorporate in your story pieces for which you have deep regret, pieces for which you apologize, pieces for which you ever go to your ex and you tell him what I did back then was terrible and you own your shit.
Yeah. You own the pieces for which you feel remorse, regret, shame so that you can turn the shame into responsibility and then free yourself and then you can also claim the other parts of the story that are beautiful.
Mm -hmm. I know. That's...
So. That makes a lot of sense.
We're gonna practice a couple.
Your story is a rich, multi -layered story and we never get to see its full colors because you take the few things for which you feel bad about and then it bans everything.
So your daughters live with secrets, your ex -husband has never been spoken to.
You can't touch in public.
You can't say what you are.
She never gets a proper name.
The affair may be over, but it's a kind of clandestine living.
Mm -hmm. What I decide to do is to have the therapy room become the safe space to have the conversations that she has never had, to hear herself say out loud that which she has never dared to say.
The mere thought of having to talk about any of this brings up tremendous anxiety and panic for her.
It is so painful. But the fact is that her panic creates a rejection of her partner.
I am working on the couple and I am working on how her internal feelings affect the relationship, not just how they affect her.
That's the difference.
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You with me? I am. You're breathing?
I am. Yes? So you're ex -husband.
OK. Name him. Give him a minute.
He's calling John. He's just a simple name, simple guy.
I want to put John in this chair.
OK. I want you to sit there.
OK. So my dear John, this is so uncomfortable to be talking to you, but you cannot imagine how many conversations I've had in my head with you.
I'm going to say this.
In your own words, yes.
This is very uncomfortable for me.
And I had this conversation with you in my head numerous times because you deserve to know the truth.
But the truth is about what I did, or the truth is about how sorry I am that I hurt you or that I neglected you or that I stopped being your wife.
Yeah. I mean, the truth is all of that.
It's that you deserve better than when I was giving you and I was very selfish.
And I didn't want to hurt him.
But I know I did. But I definitely know I did.
And I really want to own that one so that I can set you free and me.
I need to apologize for letting it go so long and for not being honest.
I owe you that. I owe you that for you and for the sake of the girls.
And I don't know if I could apologize enough.
I don't know if that would make him happy, I think.
You're not apologizing to make him happy.
You are apologizing to do the right thing.
He knew long before you.
And he stayed friends with you and he stayed friends with your partner.
You can tell him about how much you appreciate that he didn't send you to the wolves.
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
You're feeling bad isn't going to make him happy, Juana Yota.
You're telling him how much you appreciate what he has done over these decades that may.
Do you know the difference?
Yeah, I do know the difference.
And I agree that he needs to know that I do appreciate.
You want to say to him one more time?
I appreciate your being patient with me and you've been a friend to me even after all of this.
And I also appreciate that you never judged my love for my woman.
He never judged my love.
I don't know. I mean, I'm sorry.
And I hope you're happy because I want, that's really what I want, is for you to be happy.
Thank you for everything and being yourself.
And never shaming me for being gay.
Yeah, and never shaming me for being who I am.
I'm going to name it.
For being gay. You never made me feel bad for that.
One of the consequences of dissociation over many, many years is to be detected in the affect that people bring to what they feel and to what they say.
Whether she says, I'm sorry.
Whether she says, I fell in love.
Whether she says, I want you to be happy.
It all is said with the same affect.
And that similarity of unitonal voice is quite telling as the long term consequence of dissociation.
And how are you doing right now?
I mean, I'm glad I can say that to him because he deserves that.
I need to be pushed because...
I hope it's OK because that's what I'm doing.
From 1 to 10, how much of your comfort zone are we now?
I was pretty up there, 8 or 9.
I would love to ask you what it was like to hear, and I'm going to first tell you how admiring I am of your patience.
And then I will ask you, are we going to keep her in her stretch zone for a bit longer?
OK? Are you enjoying this?
I... Maybe that's not the right...
I don't know how to answer that, because I'm enjoying it now.
No, I think I think it's very important and I'll...
Good. The girls... Yes, the girls.
...who you've been thinking are ensnared in your secret and who are probably waiting to receive the permission to finally talk to you.
But they can't talk to you because you've given them the message that you can't talk about any of this.
And so this is about undoing the legacy of a secret, but also about who you are and...
Yeah. ...how they could get to know you better and then hopefully you would get to know them better.
Here they are. Um...
I mean, I would just tell them that I...
They're right here.
I want to tell you the story.
I mean, I want to tell you the story of us and what really happened.
And, you know, I met her, you guys were little, and she was part of your life as a friend and as a surrogate parent and was there to help to raise you, really.
And then it became more than a friendship and...
What does that mean?
It became more than a friendship, what did it become?
Well, I fell in love and it was more intimate, it was more...
There's a connection that I really never had with anybody else and a freedom that I never had before.
And I felt more myself than I had, but I still struggled with, you know...
No, no, before you go to the struggle, if you describe only your inner tumult, it doesn't explain enough why you did all of what you did.
One dismantles the whole family because there is something more powerful and more compelling that demands it.
That is a legacy with which they can do something, a level of truth to yourself, a level of truth to your feelings, a level of truth to your heart.
Part of why you are resentful all the time, not all the reasons, but part of it, is because you are angry with her as if she represents the secret that you cannot unveil.
Yeah, that's probably very true.
Every time you look at her, you feel guilty and ashamed, and she's become the representation of that dark, abjected part of you.
And the story of a love story, the story of I felt more free, more true, more turned on, has disappeared.
Yeah. So you can't be sexual.
Either you can't touch her, either you can't.
Everything becomes stifled.
Keep going. During the time of us being together, I realized about myself that although I still love your father, it was just a completely...
It was a different type of love, and that my love with her was allowing me to be who I was, my true self.
And my world revolves around you guys, and I never wanted to hurt you at all, and I put you first, and what I wanted there needed second.
Secrets have legacies, secrets travel across generations, and they amputate.
They actually amputate.
It's not that everything must be said.
I think we understand the difference.
It doesn't have to give all the details, but there is something about the irony of thinking that this would actually protect her daughters.
It doesn't. I should have been honest at a much earlier point.
I just didn't know how.
You can't kind of help who you fall in love with, and certainly falling in love with her hit me like I had no idea.
It was never even in my head, so I'm sorry for hurting you.
I mean, there's one more thing.
What's the one more thing?
I actually want to talk to you, not just because I want to apologise for that time, but also because by creating this silence, I have probably blocked so many avenues for connection, for conversation, for showing you the challenges of a woman being true to herself.
Yes, that's true. I want to be able to have open conversations about your lives and my life and our good and bad times, and I've got to stop protecting you to the point that you can't.
I have to give you, I guess, more credit, and I'm sorry for all that, and I hope you can find forgiveness and we can move forward to be in a better place than we are now.
OK. We are in the midst of our session, and there is still so much to talk about.
We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
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What's it like to listen to all this?
It felt good to hear you say that.
And I heard a couple of things about me in there too, which was nice.
I know the hardest one for you to talk to was John.
And I know how freeing that is because to your horror, at the younger one's college graduation, I went over and gave him a hug.
But the girl's anxiousness disappeared.
And they're like, okay, this is good.
We're all gonna have a good weekend together as a whole intermingled extended family.
Yeah. They need the permission and the freedom.
And they need to know that they can call her mom without it upsetting you.
Right. Or other mom or any other word that refers to the relationship that they have, which is a maternal relation.
Yeah, no, I, I love that.
I want that. I want...
How would they know?
I think this part of my struggle has been that I felt like over the years that you've been a mom when it was convenient and not on a steady basis.
We'd go to like school performances and things like that.
And every single one.
There is the past and how it impacts the presence.
And then there is the present, the everyday life of these two women and their bickering, their ability and inability to resolve conflicts, their power dynamic.
And now we need to address some of those.
What if she's a different parent from you?
Well, she, well, it definitely is.
I just... It's also been a very slippery slope because when they were younger and it's like meet the teacher day, and I'm like, let's go, let's meet the teacher.
No, no, no, you can't do that.
I pick and choose. Right, if I may use the same word you do at your convenience.
Yes, you're right. But the two of you can do an inventory of each time when the other one didn't show up or the other one did not get included.
Or you can do an inventory of each time that the other person did show up and was included.
And given that the outcome has been really wonderful and the girls are doing really well, I don't see the point of a negative inventory or at least of the exclusivity of a negative inventory when there is just as much of the other.
That's very true. So do you have big garbage bins near your houses?
Yeah. There's a bunch of stuff that needs to be thrown in there.
Yeah. I need to just let that stuff go and...
Would it help you if you took this whole pad and you wrote the various things that you've been holding on to?
Yeah, I feel like that's something that we could do, make it an actual like throwing away of stuff.
Rattle down quickly if you...
Go ahead. Yeah, you just don't let go of anything and that you will pick and choose what's important.
And there's not a lot of accountability or responsibility.
Like clean out your life and not make excuses and blame other people for...
This, by the way, it's all been said a thousand times.
Yes, it has. It's produced absolutely nothing.
It's narrow, it's rigid and it's fundamentally boring and deadening.
Yes, that is very true.
That doesn't mean it's not true.
No, I understand. But it's useless.
I feel like I almost have to though, keep reminding her of it.
Has it been useful?
No. Okay. I feel like I'm a parent, you know, and she's a child.
Yes. And I don't want to be the parent.
And you do understand that when there is a parent and a child, there is never any sex.
Yes. Because if your head is screwed up right on your shoulders, there should not be sex between a parent and a child.
Yeah. So if this remains the emotional organization of your relationship, sex will be out of the relationship.
Yes, it's very true.
And I'm not just talking about sex, I'm talking about physicality, affection, touch, the entire adult erotic dimension of your relationship.
And I think that it's that resentment about not being that equal partner that has caused a lot of this.
We will need to find out a better way to ask.
What you ask may be totally legit, but you're going about it in a way that hasn't given you what you want.
I feel like I've asked.
I feel like at times over the years, I've actually begged and was really truly honest and open with what I needed from her.
And then there was never any follow up action to that.
Oh, it kind of like came to the point where we sold the house, because I was drowning financially.
And I mean, she took care of things around the house and did the laundry and all that.
But at the end of the day, like bills weren't getting paid or things were, and I couldn't, I begged and I pleaded and I got a lot of pushback.
I don't wanna sell the house, I don't wanna do this.
And I'm like, so let's figure out a way to keep it, but it never happened.
So you make certain decisions.
I did. That's good.
I do, I have to because - That's fine.
That is actually the way I imagine it working the best.
Yeah, I did. I said, you know what, we're selling the house and it ended up working out.
She's just, there needs to be consequences and there's no consequences.
No, that's parental talk.
I know it is parental talk.
Thank you. Still, I feel like - But let me, let me meet out equal justice for a moment.
Anytime there is a person who takes on the parental role, there is somebody on the other side who draws it out.
Doesn't like it, but knows exactly what to do.
And then you can be a petulant teenager.
Yes. That asserts her autonomy in rebellion and in defiance and in reaction to.
So if you wanna be treated as an adult and as a lover, then you also need to act as such.
I challenge the woman who has taken on the parental role and I see the glee on the face of the other as if I'm scolding and yes, yes, but it is equally important for her to know that if there is a parent, it's because there is a child or a teenager and that teenager draws out of the other person, the parental
response, the same way that the parents draws out of the other, a child -like response.
One of the golden rules of couples is that we actually make the other.
She doesn't fight with anyone in the world.
She's the nicest person you'll ever meet.
She loves to fight with me.
I could never grasp why.
Something that she said earlier turned on a light in my head.
Which one? And it was about the resentment.
It was a representation of secret and shameful and that made a lot of sense because I never understood why I was a punching bag.
Like, why me? I get frustrated because I want you and I need you to step up.
So we're equal and not this parent -child and then I get...
But the stepping up is not just in the management of everyday life.
No. The stepping up would also be her being able to be an adult with you and that means she touches you, she kisses you, she makes love to you, she holds you, she shows up in that capacity too.
So it's a collusion on both sides.
Yes, that's true. I mean, it is, it's, yeah.
And so each one says to the other, I can't change until you do yours first.
In French it's a very polite version.
It's a preview, you first.
But in French it's after you.
You are in touch with her resentments of you but she is in touch with your defiance of her.
I feel like there's so many excuses that she is super smart and she gets frustrated because she's not, she can do so much.
Look, she has to go figure herself out.
I agree 100 % You're saying that to her in the way you do, the only power she gets is the power of no.
The more you say you can, the more the only autonomy she has is to say no.
Now that is not a good dynamic.
I try to be supportive, but I guess I'm not - For a while, you drop the topic all together, the cheerleading side of it and the critical side of it.
Okay. For a while, you have to bite your tongue because instead of going and taking action about the things that she needs to take action on, she spends her time reacting.
There is a paradigm in this relationship.
There is one woman who is definitely economically much more well off.
She has the resources.
She had the marriage.
She has the children.
She had the status that comes from being in a heterosexual relationship.
So there is a clear power imbalance between the two women.
But you know, the person who manages to say no, everybody who has had teenagers know that the true power doesn't lie with the parent at that moment.
I think one of the things that drew her to me and that now just horrifies her.
It does both at the same time.
The guy got on the subway playing the guitar.
I was interacting with him and she's like nudging me.
And I was thoroughly enjoying him.
So things like that, that I do, she's like, uh, I enjoy the fact that with the girls, although I was in a role that was much stricter than I ever wanted to be, I think that I still gave them permission to be as fun and as - Can I interrupt you?
Please. I think that's what I'm trying to suggest to you.
The subway scene is another example of the parental role.
Mommy is telling you that you are not behaving properly in the subway, that you are embarrassing.
Well, maybe I'm embarrassing her, but I'm just being me and enjoying this truth.
But that's the same as what any teenager would answer.
It's another scene of the same.
You're right. And my brain is stuck at 14, I know that.
Okay. So anything from you at this point, it really has to be about your own agency, about your place in the world.
You spent so much time reacting to her that you actually don't take action about you.
Correct. That is sad, but true.
This has to stop you - Yeah.
In the position of a child.
Right. And for all I know, part of what drew you in the beginning when you met was to see her in the role of a mother and to like the mother you were seeing and to have another relationship where you could be.
When we met, I was much more fun, much more exciting.
I traveled more, I made more money.
I think that I don't know how to make more money.
I'm apparently not a very good business woman.
No, you don't have to be a business woman.
But you're very skilled and you can earn more by virtue of the things you know to do and do well.
I know what I'm good at.
I know I'm a very good caretaker.
That has value. The issue is not just what you do or how much you make.
It's the story that you tell about, I'm not good at this, I don't do that.
So, I should have been a doctor.
It's probably true, but you could be an amazing caregiver of all sorts and people need caregivers that are not doctors, quite a bit.
Yeah, but that's the part I can't do.
Okay, see this is the perfect, this is it, we just did it.
We just did it. I just got inducted into exactly your role with your reaction, here we are.
This is the dynamic.
She will come up with one idea after another and you'll poo poo one idea after another and your strength comes from the poo poo.
From now on, every time she says, I don't know what to do, you say me neither.
Okay. And you don't take it out because the next minute you're gonna come up with an advice, she instantly has you involved and now she can say no.
Right. And that'll keep you in this non adult position and then you'll complain that she's not intimate with you and on and on it will go.
I know that I don't believe in myself and my abilities and that's a huge stumbling block for me.
So that may have been true for the first 50 years and that may not remain the truth of the future and that requires some risk taking and trying things and instead of defying her, defy your own limiting beliefs.
Okay. And that's the only thing at this moment is to bring yourself up to date from 14 to 50.
And to not be disappointed with how things went along the way.
Because I can't change it.
It is where it is you are both vigorous, healthy, engaged, life is ahead of you.
You are in a major lifecycle transition.
It's filled with possibilities.
It won't be what you imagined.
You enjoy each other's company, that goes a long way.
You want that energy in your life.
That's what brings the vitality.
From that place will come you owning your life and redressing the origin.
The origin is I lied and I cheated and I did this but I also fell in love and I was, it's a double story and they coexist.
You have only focused on one side.
Yes. And it's not the same to say this is who I am versus saying I'm gay.
That's not all of what you are but it's been a part of you that has been hard to claim.
Yes. Yes. I never looked at it as the two sides of a story.
For as much bad there was good, you know and that part of the reason I fell in love with you is just like I've never really met anyone that's just as genuine and it's just, it doesn't want anything from anybody.
Just wants to love and give and that's so rare.
You do this. You'll get the smile that you have on your face now.
You'll hold hands the way you do now.
You look at her with tenderness the way you just did.
For every day that I'm so frustrated and done an hour later I remember why like, you know.
Oh that's welcome to marriage.
I know. You just heard a classic session of where should we begin with Esther Pirell?
We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut.
To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast for the transcripts or show notes on each episode or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter go to esterpirell .com.
Esther Pirell is the author of Mating and Captivity in the State of Affairs.
She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin?
For details go to her website esterpirell .com.
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