This year I've been really rethinking my relationship with alcohol and so I decided to commit to dry January to really kickstart 2025 and just test myself.
Heineken 00 is the perfect companion for dry January because you feel like you're still participating when you're out for dinner with friends, out for drinks whilst you're still meeting your lifestyle goals.
I'm a big beer fan so I also love the taste of Heineken 00 plus being alcohol free you can enjoy whenever refreshment calls.
Heineken 00 is available at your local Heineken retailer or for delivery at Heineken .com.
You must be 21 plus to purchase.
Enjoy Heineken responsibly and good luck with dry January.
Gliding into Star Wars hyperspace lounge for a toast.
We're even going to kick back with Mickey on Disney's Private Eye.
That's how we get down because Disney Cruise Line is where we came to play.
Amazon Pharmacy presents Painful Thoughts.
The guy in front of me in the Pharmacy line is halfway through an incredibly detailed 17 -minute story about his gout.
A story likely more painful than the gout itself.
Next time save yourself the pain and let Amazon Pharmacy deliver your meds right to your door.
Amazon Pharmacy. Healthcare just got less painful.
Hello and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The very unprofessional podcast whereby we talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Ciao bonjour how are we all?
Lockdown week five baby.
Just had an extension announced this morning so here we are thriving.
Thank you very much Andrew Barr, keeping us safe as always but I hope you guys are all doing well.
Whether you may be listening, lockdown or not, hope the sun is shining, that you're being COVID safe obviously and that something amazing has happened to you this week.
I'm just going to jump right into it.
This topic the friendship breakup has been on my mind haunting my dreams quite a bit for the past to record it or research it I think for a few reasons.
Firstly it's insanely personal and although I've talked about you know things like unrequited love and hookups and heartbreak on this podcast, this is the first episode where it would just be entirely natural for me to come off looking like the bad guy which my ego obviously wasn't too fond of.
And secondly i didn't really want to do any injustice or harm to anyone who I was once friends with who I have quote unquote broken up with which we'll kind of discuss later on and I think like another reason I was kind of hesitant about recording this is it's kind of painful to look back at experiences
like that and I just don't think I was really in the right headspace to like dig deep into past friendships which were insanely meaningful for me but which have now faded fizzled we've gone our separate ways.
But yeah I've made peace with all those things I talked to my therapist about it shout out Josie god I love her so much you're the best and she said it was a good idea perhaps even a little bit healing if I came at it with a wise mind which is her favorite term so here we are recording in my car yet
again ready to bury some hatches discuss the psychology behind friendship breakups and the fizzle and why that age -old saying is true you know if you're not losing friends you're not growing up so strap in for a great episode.
I do just want to say before we get into it this is not some like personal rant about people who have left my life no bad feelings will be shared here I just think it's a really interesting topic and researching this has caused me to reflect on some of my own friendship breakups and I think throughout
this episode I was particularly reflecting on three friendships in particular that have all ended in the past year and I just thought there was heaps to learn in this often I think uncharted terrain yeah and I think I just received a lot of personal closure looking back at some of those friendships
um thinking about what I could have done differently or maybe what I didn't need to do you know yeah I'll explain kind of my thinking behind it a little bit later yeah and like I said a lot of personal closure that I would just love to share so in researching this episode I read an article that had
probably one of the best titles and it really I think inspired how where I kind of took this episode the form that it took so if you want to read it its title was friendship breakups the most untold love story and isn't that the truth isn't that just a big cup of truth friendship breakups or fizzles
they're just as serious and can create the same feelings and reactions as normal breakups you know the loneliness guilt anger awkwardness the grief like grief can be a huge component that I think is often under appreciated and not really too often spoken about um and I think friendships also contain just
as much love as romantic relationships can and an appreciation as well if you do them right of course and heaps of studies have proven time and time again that friendships are one of the most important ways to enrich your life they improve your well -being they aid in the stable release of dopamine and serotonin and they
can help you you know cope with trauma cope with things like your parents I think friendships are just as important as a part of your social network as a relationship is so I think that yeah they're just as important but they aren't always held to the same esteem and I think this all has to do with how
our society creates like an internal hierarchy within our minds of which relationships are more important and thus the level of emotions we're able to feel in those relationships and in response to them so bear with me here but in this hierarchy friendships are not given nearly as much importance I
think is familial or intimate relationships so you know friends are just seen as more plentiful and replaceable which I think is entirely incorrect you know good friendships stable friendships and lasting friendships are incredibly incredibly rare but we have been conditioned to place more emphasis on finding
and keeping intimate partners and there's a greater expectation of suffering and grief when romantic relationships end whereas that kind of reaction over friendships I don't think is as normalized or expected which is a huge problem as to why we don't really talk about what it kind of feels like to
go through a painful end with a friend I think people and people often underestimate what a big deal it is for a friendship to end and they can just be you know these breakups of sorts can be just as uncomfortable and sad as romantic endings you know I kind of I don't really want to stress this point
but I just think it's so important like you can share a similar level of intimacy memory is vulnerability with someone you were never romantic or sexual with and when those relationships come to an end there is an emptiness in their place because no one is entirely replaceable and every individual brings
something entirely different to your life even if that friendship is no longer fruitful or successful I had this actually with someone like thinking of them I had this with someone at the end of last year and I think as much as it was important to no longer speak to this friend and essentially cut them
off there are times that I really miss them and I miss their presence because we did share a lot of memories and a lot of personal vulnerability so it was a hard conundrum and I have had quite a few moments I won't lie where I've wanted to reach out where I've wanted to message them rekindle the conversation talk
it kind of about what went wrong but I just realized that it is for the best that we're no longer in each other's lives and as far as I can see they're really happy and so am I so I think it's just best to leave it be even though it's really fucking awkward when I run into them in Dixon Woolies yeah
maybe if they're listening to this they'll know it's about them but yeah I think no one's entirely replaceable even when you do know that those friendships aren't meant to last and like I said as important as friendships are romantic relationships tend to get all the glory meanwhile the platonic ones
they're really undervalued I think and I read an excellent chapter of this book it's called the friendship fix we'd definitely recommend it if you're into this kind of literature and it's written by this psychologist her name is Dr.
Andrea Bonnor and this is what she kind of explains because there is not the weighty expectation of monogamy which is often associated with romantic relationships people have a much harder time ending friendships so this was a bit confusing when I first read it and I did think it was like a bit of a stretch
but this is how she explains it and it makes a lot more sense when you read more of the book so when you're in a relationship with someone and you're on a monogamous relationship a close relationship you have to break up with a partner in order to move on to someone new so you you know you have to break
up with them it's an action that has to happen for you to move on to any relationship but in terms of a friendship there is absolutely nothing stopping you from avoiding a friendship breakup indefinitely putting off the confrontation and just hanging out with other people instead you know you can't
cheat on your friends the way that you could cheat on a partner and you can have multiple friends whereas in relationships we have that expectation of monogamy so often what happens is we end up staying in these friendships and prolonging them with you know little snippets of interactions when we should just
be cutting ties I think also unlike our romantic relationships or you know however unlike our romantic relationships in which there is kind of an understanding that things may not work out and that's kind of part of the agreement you both sign up for you know the inevitability of a breakup from a relationship
in your teenage years or you know in your 20s it's an it's understood it's a dynamic of a romantic attachment but with friendships we assume that our friends will be around forever we expect that we'll be you know old people retiring together beat each other's weddings meet the family meet each other's
kids so this means that if there is a breakup we aren't just grieving the present loss of that friend but also the loss of that friend in our imagined future it also makes ending of friendships quite awkward and appears unnecessary you know why do we need to break up with a friend why not just let it
fizzle and let the debris settle I think sometimes that's just not really a healthy option sometimes it's also not the best way to avoid hurt like the last taste of your friendship should not be one of bitterness and resentment um so sometimes you do need to have that chat with them you need to talk
to them and be like this isn't really working um the same book I was reading kind of goes into this a little bit more and it concluded that there were two main reasons why friendships end but I think I've added a third because I think it also deserves acknowledgement that's the fizzle so these are the three
reasons the three big fat reasons why this psychologist believes that friendships end so number one something bad happens a betrayal circumstances that make you realize that you and that other person can no longer be friends these are relationships that end because of something really terrible often
resulting in maybe a big fight or something of that genre it's not repairable the fizzle you just lose your chemistry with someone you drift that's that no harm no foul no falling out you have those friends you were really close to at some point and now the conversation no longer flows in the same manner
and you both kind of recognize that you don't really have that same spark and finally incompatibility and values perhaps you were really good friends for some time but as you've grown your compatibility and values in life have changed or maybe your values really never aligned in the first place and something
has made you realize that or just made you realize that you expect different things from each other as friends and I think in general this is the most common reason friendships typically come to an end because there is a disconnect that one or both of you feel is beyond repair it's not nasty it's not a negative
thing you're simply going through different life transitions that are going to take you to different places and there's that age old wisdom my friend Lucy she said this to me the other day people come into your life for a reason a season or a lifetime and that applies to friendships I think more than any
other kind of relationship think about all those people that you know from high school who are still friends with the exact same people they there just has to be I think some tension and incompatibility in these situations you know how can you be on the same trajectory as every person in your life that you
have ever shared a friendship with people change and stagnation is really unhealthy it doesn't allow your brain to move grow change and it doesn't give you new experiences or new ways to learn with new people because if you're keeping all those people that you've always been friends with there's no room
for new people there's no room for someone else and that kind of means it's necessary to shed all relationships to grow into your new skin like I said imagine if you were friends with every person that you have ever shared a connection with like it would be a fucking full -time job and more to stay in contact
with all of them to hear about you know provide support to all of them to have to stay up to date with their lives essentially I think although that was a bit of a rant what I'm trying to kind of communicate is that friendships ending is not only normal but also a necessary part of growth and it should be
something that we are more honest about if you and a person are no longer compatible you have different priorities you know why force it at that stage would it not just be better to give each other the freedom to move on and transform into the new versions of yourselves rather than you both kind of having
to appease those who are now a reflection of a past you I think there is one element of friendship breaks ups that I do really want to touch on though because I'm very not I don't want to say like I'm a pro friendship breakup person but I'm pro cultivating the right relationships for you we often hear
someone refer to an ex -friend as toxic or they bring negative energy into their life and I'm sure we've all used that word or you know they're toxic as fuck or their relationship was like so was like really toxic like they're a toxic person and I kind of have always had a bit of a problem with this like
do toxic people really exist is this a reason to kind of justify ending a friendship with someone that they're toxic they're inherently toxic and I do have a bit of a particular opinion about this obviously that I don't think is necessarily shared by everyone but I really don't think that toxic people
as a category exist I don't think that anyone in particular is you know just toxic to their core people just have friction with other people and not with others and that creates negativity and that toxicity that we associate with someone in particular it's not that person it's your relationship with them
with that person not them and I think there's things that we can't really confuse and because of your relationship and because it's not compatible that's what creates that negativity like no one is toxic I like hate that phrase I don't think that we can claim anyone is toxic but with that in mind I
do think there obviously is a certain point where friendships do cross boundaries and become an increasingly negative force on your life and psychological research does say there are certain personality types that do tend to conflict with others meaning that those relationships are more likely to be
kind of charged with negativity so these types of people have like I said distinct personalities or ways of operating socially but this doesn't make them entirely toxic or toxic for everyone they just might not be the most compatible with you or with the majority of people so according to some of the this recent
research that I stumbled across and this was really interesting because I never heard of this concept before but this research suggests that there are at least four basic types of people that we generally may see as toxic so the narcissistic aggressive narcissistic aggressive person the frenemy the negative
complaining person and the seductive overly dramatic person starting off so the narcissistic aggressive type is often someone who is selfish but still highly charming so they charm and suck you in and can be rather assertive but they're also inclined towards possessiveness so although the initial stages
of the friendship may be very gooey and exciting pleasant even there is often a degree of rage or anger when things don't go their own way an intense outbursts almost when you spend time with people or you or they tend to or you know they might perceive that you're neglecting them so the frenemy is the next
archetype so they seem like a friend but can often become jealous perhaps they're prone to gossip and you feel like you just can't trust them you might even feel inclined to say that they're or perhaps say that they're deliberately trying to sabotage your happiness amongst other people in order to kind
of bolster their self worth self -esteem as well and by sabotaging those other relationships it also increases your reliance on them so the third archetype this is the negative complaining person and this is someone who never never appears happy they're never satisfied with your friendship and what you
have to give them in any way nothing pleases them and i had a friend like this and my fucking god it was exhausting being around you know someone who regards their life as terrible and can never take encouragement is exhausting it's so tiring it makes you feel depressed just you just feel so hopeless
and you want to help them but it's just sometimes there's just these people who are just ultimately pessimistic and perhaps at first you know like other archetypes they appear really friendly and they're open to adventure but it can often change into passive aggression and need to dominate your social
life and a pattern of negativity that is really difficult to deal with and it's difficult to overcome and it's i think a big indicator of this type of person the negative complaining person is that it's emotionally draining to be around them and it's emotionally draining to hear how everyone and everything
in life is failing them and going poorly whilst you're there you know trying to hold them up trying to support them finally the seductive overly dramatic person so these people they're often the life of the party they're physically attractive intelligent charming exciting but they steamroll you they
require all of your attention this is the type of person or individual who never seems to be listening when you're telling them your issues or they'll you know interrupt and trying to make something funny or about them just cut you off they talk over you and they often require a lot of attention and energy
but almost never seem to come through for you or they never really seem to acknowledge you either you're just kind of an accessory for them they crave attention but it can leave you as the friend feeling pretty depleted and unworthy unseen or useless so knowing that there are these types of people out
there i'm sure we can all conjure upon some image of someone who would fit into into at least one of these four categories but then there's the question we all know someone like this so why do we continue to remain friends with people who treat us poorly or who make us feel unappreciated so one reason why
we remain friends with people a lot longer than necessary is fear it's fear of loneliness humans have a natural drive to avoid loneliness it's built into our dna so when we feel less socially connected or separated or feel like a member of our extended tribe essentially is treating us poorly or withdrawing
it creates this visceral knee jerk reaction emotionally and as a tribal species our brains have adapted to rely on social connections as a means to survive so according to this neuroscience scientist his name was john kachiopo kachiopo john kachiopo i'll put it in the if you want um he's made a career
out of basically just studying loneliness a really kind of a sad niche um and in one of his recent papers he made this point so the absence of social connection triggers the same primal alarm bells as hunger thirst and physical pain so this is what leads us to maintain friendships even when they are incompatible
or we no longer feel satisfied especially if we feel like we have limited options beyond that friend or group of friends additionally unhealthy friendships can do enormous damage to your confidence levels without you even realizing it so the idea of leaving what is comfortable even if it's not fulfilling
and going out to find new friends it can be extra terrifying if you already are in a place of depleted self -esteem this also kind of leads on to another reason why we stay friends with people who might not necessarily be the best fit for our character or bring out the best aspects of who we are we want
to feel needed everyone wants to feel like they provide value to the world and if we're there for our friends if we have friends it makes us feel like we're valuable and social connections are also an incredibly meaningful and often understated way in which we feel we have purpose friendships and social
ties they allow us to situate ourselves in our external world and internally they make us feel secure and supported especially when our presence is serving a function for someone else the underlying psychology and the socially tuned nature of our brain can also make it exceptionally difficult to end
friendships especially if like in a breakup we're concentrating on times when our friendships were positive and warm and glowy and nice friendships have a honeymoon phase just like relationships but i think just like relationships we also tend to outgrow them like i said if you're not losing friends
you're not growing but i think the important thing to remember and i know it just like this isn't like a necessarily very wise thing to say i just think it's a nice way to end the episode is that friends should be there to support you and to enrich your life and if they're bringing you down it's probably
time to move on if you don't enjoy their company move on the people you choose to surround yourself with should be great spirits and they should inspire you to be the absolute best you can and just create that energy that you yourself want to embody and represent i think in our 20s it's inevitable you're
going to go through a friendship breakup but recognizing when it is time to move on and handling it with grace is kind of our best option at that point honestly i don't know this is a bit weird but why not have like a breakup chat about it i've done it with friends before it kind of curbs the awkwardness
and obviously that's not an option for everyone if someone's done something really terrible to you cut them out you know vibe so high you don't need them sometimes you know you're just going to have to have awkward run -ins with ex -friends and just hope that you're both mature enough mature enough to
like not mention it and just ask how each other have been and move on need a bigger person anyhow i hope you guys enjoyed this episode like i kind of mentioned it was incredibly cathartic and it's kind of been building up in my notes archive for a while so i just think it's super important to talk about friendship
breakups they're everywhere i'm we can all think of someone who we're no longer friends with maybe we even resent them we haven't forgiven them for something it feels like that friendship felt like a relationship even so definitely something i think needs to be talked about more so i hope that kind
of understanding some of the psychology behind it was interesting um and like i said like i always say i guess remember to subscribe to this podcast if you liked it on wherever you're listening honestly i'm sure you can subscribe there unless it's like on the website like my grandparents do it and i
hope that we're all coping well with lockdown and whatever is going on with your life um yeah feel free to drop some suggestions as well on instagram if you've got any ideas about what you want to hear about on the next episode of the show and as always thanks so much for listening this year i've been
really rethinking my relationship with alcohol and so i decided to commit to dry january to really kickstart 2025 and just test myself heineken 00 is the perfect companion for dry january because you feel like you're still participating when you're out for dinner with friends out for drinks whilst you're
still meeting your lifestyle goals i'm a big beer fan so i also love the taste of heineken 00 plus being alcohol free you can enjoy whenever refreshment calls heineken 00 is available at your local heineken retailer or for delivery at heineken .com you must be 21 plus to purchase enjoy heineken responsibly
and good luck with dry january ah and here we have travelers in their natural habitat enjoying guaranteed 4 p .m check out at fine hotels and resorts booked through amex travel and they don't even see what's coming at them we're in we got the table yep with resi priority notify they're alerted when hard
to get reservations open up reservation for two save the best for last thanks to amex platinum the last day vacation brings yet another experience that's a powerful backing of american express terms apply learn more at americanexpress .com slash with amex please welcome aboard the johnson family the whole
fame's here for the disney cruise so you know we came to play and listen the adults are gonna have a ball first we're chilling in the infinity pool onto massages at census spa then gliding into star wars hyperspace lounge for a toast we're even going to kick back with mickey on disney's private eye
that's how we get down because disney cruise line is where we came to play
