Thank you.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Hot Pursuit, a podcast about creating conversations where nothing is off limits.
This podcast is produced by Asian Boss Girl.
I'm Em.
I'm the older sister you've always wanted.
I'm Jen, the cheese ball in your snack drawer.
And I'm Madeline, your girl who thinks everything really is that deep.
Because it is.
Today, we are talking about the topic of work trauma and struggles.
So, Jen, will you please fix by end of day?
Oh, no.
We should wiggle our mouses.
Oh, we should.
Oh, y'all should wiggle y'all's mouses.
Yikes.
Did you guys ever have mouse wigglers?
No.
Like a physical one or?
No.
Did you know some companies track if you downloaded a mouse wiggler? yeah it's kind of crazy yeah some companies track like if like the amount of the keystrokes you do in an hour and like if it's like at a human rate if it's like versus it's it's insane so that's what we're going to talk about today we're going to talk about All the ways in which our jobs, specifically our past and current corporate jobs, have traumatized us and how we've navigated that.
We want to talk about this because work is something that everybody has to deal with.
And at some point in your life, work is going to suck because of the people.
I remember as a kid being like, why do adults, they're always complaining about work together.
And now I get it.
I'm like, why are they just like bitching about work together all the time?
But it's really quite communal.
It's their whole lives.
It's quite communal and really cathartic.
So let's do it together.
Yes.
Let's start with...
Bad managers.
Bad managers.
That's a good one.
We've all had them.
Everyone's had one.
Yeah.
You're probably thinking of someone right now.
Whoever comes to mind.
It's like when people say you have the guy that you've always loved, or whatever.
Blah blah, blah and everyone has a name.
Bad managers, everyone has a name for one that comes to mind.
Jen, you've had experiences with bad managers.
Why don't you start the conversation?
I did.
So on this team it felt like I was in a sorority because there was so much drama.
There's so much like gossiping, there's lots of people talking behind each other's backs, there's so many like playing favorites.
But the thing that's interesting is that Sometimes that happens with like between your peers, but the manager of this team was like the person that like leaned into playing favorites a lot.
And like obviously everyone on the team knows too.
And so I think that was.
It was a predominantly female team too, which I think makes it kind of worse.
I know.
More complicated.
I hate that.
More emotional.
Yeah.
So everything like slight comments in meetings, would like tip someone off, and then they're like pinging the person that they're talking about behind their back to be like why would she say that?
There's just like so many more like sensitive dynamics with- like a very toxic female predominant work environment because Emotions are easily like lit up.
And so that was tricky to navigate because oftentimes like both sides would be like bitching to me about each other.
And so it was like a weird position to be in the center of it all and try and like make them feel yeah, make them feel like oh man, but then also like the other person's like paying me on the same time.
There's like really exhausting, like the work itself felt like a cathartic place sometimes, because you're like ah, I just need to make a powerpoint slide I don't have to deal with.
Like everyone's sensitive, like emotions, it's like so much to absorb, and then you get to the end of the day and you're like I'm already exhausted.
That's the thing like a bad manager.
Even though you are in a good work environment, a bad manager can make it awful, awful.
You could be in a perfect company with a mission that you align on.
The workload is good.
You're interested.
But if you have a bad manager, like you might just leave.
You know, it's true, it's so true yeah, like you could have a company with so many great benefits, very comfortable.
They really care about their employees.
But if it's like too close to home in terms of like yeah, the the environment being toxic, then it just ruins everything, like nothing is worth it after that yeah, And the complications that come from when there's friendships outside of work, that play into the work dynamics too.
And then people feel like oh, just because you two get along, that she's getting all the best projects, she's getting the cool opportunities.
And then other people are stewing because they're like just because I don't relate to you, it's affecting my career.
And I feel like there was a lot of people that were feeling really sensitive about that.
And the manager leaned into it too.
You know?
Instead of... How do you guys feel about that?
Being friends with your coworkers?
I feel like that's kind of a... People feel really differently.
Everyone needs a work wife.
I think you need an ally, because it's kind of it feels like a.
As much as I hate agreeing with it, it feels like a family unit.
So your managers and your supervisors are your parents and then your like lateral coworkers.
Those are your siblings and you just You get to talk bad about your managers with your siblings.
And I think it's really important to find that ally.
And there's always that one person that you can really really trust to just spill everything to you.
Like, did you hear what she said?
Did you catch her tone in that?
And it makes work a little more tolerable because at least you have them.
Yeah, work wives and having those allies for literal survival in corporate is so important for literally navigating bad managers or toxic behaviors.
You feel like you're not insane at being like, that was not okay.
Mads do have experiences with toxic behaviors that you have to figure out how to navigate and be like what.
Totally.
No, I've had like a bad manager with toxic behavior.
I feel like they kind of go hand in hand, you know?
Yeah.
Perpetuate toxic pain.
It's choking.
Yeah.
And when you see a model, that kind of encourages it and people follow suit, even if they don't want to, because they have to survive.
It's a whole ecosystem.
It really is.
So I was working on a team one time where the partner was not particularly wonderful and great corporate speak I love and yeah, which is another topic we can talk about later but I the way that they would treat all the employees was just very hierarchical and like very much so in a power trip um, and i think like the the swell of the peak of it was when i decided to leave the company and kind of like talk to the partner and tell them that like oh, i i'm gonna, you know, leaving.
I got this opportunity elsewhere.
I remember I went into their office and I sat down and I said I just want, you know, you know I found an opportunity somewhere else and just, you know, thank you for this time.
But you know, and so we talked a little bit oh, are you moving?
What it was the opportunity?
Yeah, and then they sit back and they just go.
You know it doesn't surprise me that a young Asian female like you isn't thriving in a place like this.
What?
I know.
Oh, my God.
He said... I know.
And I was so shook at the time.
I didn't know what to do.
I'm shook now.
Boink, boink, boink, boink.
Yeah.
But that's wild.
Yeah.
I didn't know what to do.
And so like me being like subordinate, I was just like, yeah, I know.
Yeah.
But it says so much about what he thinks about.
Right?
Young Asian employee.
Yeah, why couldn't he just say you?
Exactly.
He broadened it.
I mean, that would be awful too.
He literally broadened it and generalized it so fast.
He's like, of course.
And this is the same person who would do this, you know?
And it was just really awful.
What's his name?
But it's just the existence of that just inspires you to say I will never create something this bad, create an environment this bad for anyone.
Because it wasn't just me that was suffering.
The manager that stayed, the senior that stayed, everyone on that team was just suffering.
That's awful.
It was so terrible.
But when toxic behaviors are tolerated, there's really no out.
Yeah.
Have you guys had any other toxic behaviors that you've had to survive or observe in other people?
So I worked in finance when I was still in corporate.
And so there was a lot of bulldozing.
And I feel like unfortunately, sometimes it's necessary.
I hate to say that it's necessary, but that's just how the ecosystem works in finance.
Like you have to be like, I'm better than all my coworkers and this is why you should promote me.
It doesn't even matter if you produce more and produce better, it's more, just like.
Hey manager, look at what I did.
Look at what I did.
And you're constantly just pushing it in their face.
And so I remember in team meetings I would have coworkers be like oh well, Emily had a problem fixing this spreadsheet.
So I had to jump in and I helped her with it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then so it's just like, even though it was my project, they were like oh, but I helped her complete it.
And then so and obviously the manager is going to be like, well, thank you for helping her.
Like, thank you for using your knowledge to complete this task for the team.
And I was just like, I did all this setup.
What do you mean?
And it was like the last element that I just like, couldn't get.
And like and they got their credit.
So unfortunately, that's just like something very.
When you slaved over that.
Yeah.
So hard.
Yeah.
And it's not it's not unusual in corporate, especially in finance.
Yeah.
Fighting for the credit.
Yeah.
Fighting for credit.
And then there's it's very common for even managers to take credit for their work.
Their subordinates work as well.
Yeah.
And that's just the ugly, ugly truth about corporate America.
And the part that people don't really talk about too, is a lot of times it's just a fight for their ego.
Yes, huge, massive egos just getting in the way.
And yes, we're a team, but at the same time, it's every man for himself.
And it just feels like every day you're going into battle, when you're literally just trying to balance a spreadsheet, but you're also having to deal with these dynamics, like interpersonally, between coworkers, and then like upwards and downwards.
It's very complicated to navigate.
Yeah.
There's so much like managing of everyone's emotions that are around you, I feel like, in corporate.
You're constantly having to think about their reactions to things, or if you're making a request, it's not managing the details of the request.
Usually it's like getting them to understand why feeling their frustration, because then that's gonna make more work for them, whatever.
It's like everything is an emotional reaction that you have to figure out how to like, manage and navigate, and a lot of that, I find, comes from like, pride and ego of like.
People have their distinct like like for lack of a better word like territories of scope right, like everyone has scope and corporate incorporate the greater scope, more important scope, better projects, whatever it is that you have like allows people to grow faster, or whatever.
And so people fight so hard to protect their bounds of their team's scope or priorities or portfolio work.
And anything that they feel threatened by.
If you're trying to like, come in and encroach on that, even when you're just trying to like partner collaborate, it feels like you're like oh, don't get, don't come near my territory here.
Yeah, it feels like a threat and you're like it's not, we're just I needed your help here.
Or like, let's partner, you know, but it feels like a threat because they're trying to protect their space, because that fuels their sense of worth and value and ego.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like being in suburbia when like, someone plants a tree too close to your property and you're like, why is that tree there?
Your roots are touching my lawn no really.
But the thing is like they have to say it with a smile on their face and through corporate lingo.
That is a whole language on its own.
So passive aggressive yeah yeah yeah, and i don't know dialect.
I don't know if you guys like experience this, but like sometimes um, your like managers would pit your own family, your team family, against another team family.
So there's like i don't know, do you guys like experience that?
Like I hate the project management team.
Like, they suck.
They're always trying to create work for us.
The sales team.
Oh, yeah.
Again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it creates, like, camaraderie within the team or something weird.
Kind of.
Yeah.
That's how you bond, by hating another team together.
Kind of.
I've also seen managers, like, really butter up their own team.
And I've had a skip manager do this a lot with our team.
They'll be like, you guys are doing the most important type of work, blah, blah, blah.
And we're just like, eh, not really.
Like, you know what I mean?
It's like too much of it.
You're just like, this is actually just like delusional.
It ain't that important.
It's like their way to boost morale, I think.
Building off a little bit about what Madeline was talking about with that, that combination of being like Asian American like, of course, you wouldn't thrive here.
First of all, so problematic.
Second of all, that's not unusual at all, like i used to work at a very uh, client-facing uh company and um, there was just one day i didn't wear like a full face of makeup, i didn't curl my hair, and then i, the outfit was very simple.
It was still professional, but it was really simple.
And my boss walked in and she was like you're wearing that to work.
And I was like, oh, I thought it was fine.
She's like, you look like you just came from the gym.
And I was like, oh, sorry about that.
Like today I'm in the back office so I really didn't think it would be like I'm not seeing any clients today.
That shouldn't matter regardless.
Yeah.
I thought she left it.
She walked out of the office and then I went into the break room, and then behind me I hear her follow me into the break room.
She's like, I can't believe you wore that.
You cannot wear stuff like this ever again.
Like you need to represent us better.
You need to wear makeup.
You need to do your hair.
You need to like, be very ladylike because you were representing our company.
And I'm just like okay, I get it, but isn't the work part and the excellence in Why don't you create and produce?
In the work I produce.
And I just remember feeling really upset because first of all, she chased me around the office yeah, and she and she was like really loud about it too.
Everyone else in the office heard her say like you look like you're going to the or you came from the gym.
How could you wear that?
Like your hair looks nappy and it's kind of like that added expectation, especially for women.
Like yeah, You've got to perform at the same level as men if you want to be promoted at their same level.
So there's proving that.
And then there's also the added layer of like, be a lady, be beautiful, be presentable.
And it's like your work isn't enough.
It's yeah, the work isn't enough.
I also have to look good.
And that takes hours.
So it's just like yeah, it's like I have to wake up at 630, spend two hours getting ready to do this exact same work as someone else who doesn't need makeup, whose society doesn't expect them to do makeup.
So a guy's hair will look like the Red Sea was parted.
And yeah, all they do is like water and they go done, done and like people just trust them more because they're men.
It's like it's very agitating and that's just like the world that we live in.
It's interesting because i feel like there's all these like um employee resource groups and talks and stuff like for women advocating and sharing their experiences, which is so helpful.
But the reality is that the ageism and sexism in corporate America is still prominent.
It's maybe not expressed so blatantly all the time, but you can really feel it in the subtle nuances and expectations of you, so that there's like the whole sexism angle.
But I personally always experience the ageism piece where I maybe especially working in a company where there's a lot of people who've been around for a long time and they're older and they've been with the company for like 25 years.
And that alone, they feel like there's credibility that they have.
So in a meeting, like they'll use that as a reason why you're wrong, like i've.
I've been here 20 years and this is how it's always been like that kind of language yeah, like when they're pushing back on you, it's not like actual reasoning they'll say well, i know it might seem this way, but you know, i've been here for 20 years, i know where the bones are buried.
They love that phrase.
I know where the bones are buried.
Like i've never heard that phrase.
Maybe it's old people speak.
Yeah, it's boomer speak.
It's boomer speak for sure.
But they'll use that as like, and then it's like a conversation ending comment.
Because I said so, the condescension is so palpable and unfair.
Yeah.
You're constantly having to like fight extra hard to bring more reasoning or more evidence for like making your case, to try and like bring them along for whatever initiative you need to drive forward or whatever.
Yeah.
And combating that with evidence, like they respond really a lot of evidence or facts or research that you've done, but that's a lot more extra work okay yeah, and they don't like necessarily take you on face value.
You have to like prove it to them and then they might be like okay, that makes sense.
And then that trust you have to build like painstakingly, brick by brick, which is like so annoying because you have to start from like negative two literally, because they've had 25 years on you when, like you came in with qualifications, you have proven yourself.
Up until this point, you've had managers that will vouch for you but like it just.
But you're in your 20s yeah, but you look like you're in your 20s yeah, and i look like i'm 12.
Do they say stuff like, oh, I could be your dad.
I could be your mom.
Oh, my God.
Oh, wait.
You know what I hate that people do?
What?
Sometimes it's like in morale events or whatever.
It's like a casual environment, right?
And you're just chatting away on non-work stuff.
And they reference some pop culture thing, like some band or whatever.
And they love to be like –
Oh, Jen, this was way before your time, though.
You probably weren't even born yet.
You were probably only three.
And then they bond with everybody else to be like, and then you just feel like you're like yeah, I don't get that reference.
You're just like, sorry, I can't relate.
I'm a toddler.
But I'm still hanging with you here.
I'm still hanging with you here.
What does that say?
There's sexism with the story from your manager.
There's ageism, which is a little harder to detect, but it's felt and it causes so much more responsibility and work for you to have to prove yourself.
And then there's also just like other forms of like people viewing you as less than.
Like racism.
Yeah.
I'm curious if you have any like experiences with like just seeing that people's view of you is wrong.
Yeah.
Or it's like so blinding.
Like this is, I mean, I guess I just have racism in my back pocket.
Oh, you do?
I have racist experiences in my back pocket.
So I had a manager one time who was honestly like not a terrible manager.
But when they say things like this it's hard for you to bounce back because you see how they really view you.
So I had a major one time.
I was like presenting, and then you know it's hard to like take credit when you're asian.
You're just kind of like oh, you know, like it's just whatever.
Whatever like it's, it's because it's because of teamwork, you know.
And then the manager was like why can't you take the credit for what you've done?
And so nice, i know it's nice yes, it's nice.
And then, and then i was like i don't know, maybe it's just like an asian thing culturally, you know.
And then they just like they sat back, they put their hands up in the air, they go, You're from Kansas.
You're not Asian.
What?
You can't say that.
And so it's just... Oh, my God.
And they mentioned it in like the best way, but it came off like Not them telling you you're not Asian.
I know.
And then, like... For being from Kansas.
Right.
Because of So then.
So then like, how do you, how are you motivated to just like show up after that, when it's like that was such an unnecessary comment.
Yeah, it's also so revealing revealing um, and the thing is like i don't have qualms with this person, but like now i do, but like when you're so young and you're starting off in your career, you just like don't really oh, this was recently, never mind.
Oh, I have nothing to say to that.
This is still happening.
That's crazy.
But the difference, though, is that when you were younger, you would have absorbed that more.
Now you're like, if that, that's wrong.
I can call that out clearly.
But the same feeling of like, I don't know how to respond to that.
Like, what am I supposed to do?
What do you say to that?
Exactly.
And I went through like in one moment, I went through so many thoughts.
I was like, I could go to HR, but HR is not going to do anything.
Like HR is not on your side.
Yeah.
Never.
Lovely people.
They're never on your side.
They love you personally, never on your side.
I'm thinking about like the legal side.
Exactly.
And I'm like, do I approach them?
Well, that's going to make it weird, because if I report into them, they're going to view this as a riff that doesn't need to be there.
I don't view them that way.
It's not worth it.
But that's already very Asian thinking to not want to stir the pot.
I know, I know.
And not have to create any dissension between teammates and stuff.
Yes.
But then ultimately, I decided to not do anything about it.
Not because I cared about the other person, unfortunately.
It was because it's easier for me if I don't cause a problem.
I don't want to put a target on my back, which is probably not necessarily the best way of thinking about things, but it's how we survive.
Yeah, in this world, you just gotta like, make really hard choices where like, you pull the short end of the stick, unfortunately.
Yeah yeah, that's right.
It's just, It's kind of crazy.
It sucks.
Yeah, what do you do?
It's kind of crazy, really.
This person on another team that, like we were good friends, he was sharing that they had a slide in their team.
Their org's all hands of like HR violations.
And they thought everyone thought that those were just like examples.
And then when they got to the end of the presentation, they're like oh yeah, these all happened in the past year, by the way.
Oh my god, they went for shock value on that and it's happening.
That's the thing, like no, it's happening right now, all the time.
Yeah yeah, people just don't really talk about it.
It seems wild and out there, but like no one's healthy for us to like share them.
Yeah, no one pays attention in pc training.
They just like play and then walk away and like it's.
I think it's just.
I hate to say it, but it's like inevitable because in the corporate setting you're dealing with human beings.
Yeah.
Who?
Who try to relate, who try to be funny, but like you're going to make a misstep and like not, we're like not perfect.
I'm sure we've all said things that were kind of like off kilter and like yeah, I've definitely said stuff that I was like Ooh, I shouldn't have said that.
I remember one of my coworkers, she was gonna quit to spend more time with her children.
And I was really young at the time, so I didn't know how to phrase it, but I was like, oh so, with your career, you're just gonna stop it and you're just gonna be a mom.
And I remember I didn't mean it like that, because I know being a mom is like the hardest job in the world
And I remember her DMing me back.
She was like, just a mom.
And I was like, I didn't mean it like that.
I'm so sorry.
I shouldn't have said just.
And I was like, I'm so sorry.
I meant like.
Like, not in corporate America.
Like, you're going to raise your family.
And that's, like, really good.
Because I was just curious about her, like, what it's going to be like for her next.
And I was going to ask more questions.
But I said, like, you're going to be just a mom.
You mentioned, like, you get to focus on being a mom.
I'm so sorry, Sarah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think it's like important to talk about these things.
Yeah.
With your coworkers and just with your friends.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
So if you're an Asian-American girl working in corporate, we see you.
Welcome to our rant fest or bitch fest.
And how have we navigated and tried to survive amidst these many power dynamics egos, toxic behavior?
I quit corporate.
It's never going to get better.
I'm just going to leave.
I'm out of here.
But one of the things to discuss, though, is when to know when to leave.
When to jump.
It's so hard.
Yeah.
Because sometimes you're... you're shackled in golden hair and cuffs.
You have really great benefits.
And I hear a lot of my friends say yeah.
I hear a lot of my friends say just like Oh, but it's just like so good here.
And like, yeah, I think I can, I can handle the anxiety I can handle.
Oh yeah, the bad dreams about spreadsheets, because I'm getting like really great fitness benefits or like something like that.
They pay for my phone bill.
So it's just like, yeah.
How do you know when, when it's not worth it anymore.
Don't know if there's like a rule for me.
My, my limit was like i was getting heart palpitations and like anxiety and i would wake up in cold sweats.
So, like that's when i was like okay, this is not the best for me, it's pretty bad yeah, but some people can handle it.
And like oh, more power to them.
Yeah, but i was like i don't, i don't want it's like affecting my skin.
Yeah, i'm getting wrinkles.
What about you, Mads?
Have there been ways that you've tried to figure out how to navigate it all?
No.
It can feel really hard.
I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.
She's like, it is what it is.
Honestly, ranting about it is helpful, I find.
It is helpful.
I know sometimes people are like, oh, I don't want to talk about work anymore.
But I'm like.
It's real, though.
I have so much to say from this past week.
People are like, how was your week?
I was like, oh, I got a story for you.
It's like, yeah.
Cathartic.
And also, like, the real friends all know the names of all of your coworkers.
Yes.
I know all of your coworkers' names.
I knew all of your coworkers' names.
Yeah, we know your man.
Yeah.
We know all of the.
All good things.
All good things.
The colorful cast of characters.
Yeah.
Because they are family to some extent.
You see them every single day you interact with them.
You spend so much time with them.
One thing that I feel like has helped for me is seeing the egos for what they are.
That's really helpful.
Calling it out.
Yeah, yeah.
Because otherwise it feels like you're just having to receive so much stuff.
People are like sticking on you, but seeing that they're operating out of a place of like this is an area that they draw a lot of like worth and value from, and so they're overextending on feeling really sensitive because something is like feeling threatened or the control that they had for this area is feeling like at risk, and so they're like operating on that has been more helpful which, when i was younger, i was just like why?
Why, you know, and i feel like now i'm like ah, you just really love this project a lot yeah, and that's why you're feeling so sensitive.
Or you have not dealt with things and therefore are pulling value from work.
Yeah, some people just don't have much control at home and this is like the only yeah area in which they feel like okay i, what i say matters, so i'm just gonna pour everything into that and make sure everyone here is what i have to say.
So, And it's also interesting.
It's very human.
Yeah.
Oh, go ahead.
It's also interesting like hearing your friends' stories though, because they spend so much time with their co-workers that their co- sorry, their co-workers get a side of them that you don't as a friend.
And so it's kind of like a peek into like, oh, yeah.
You know, who is my friend 40 hours or 50 or 60 hours of the week?
In this context, yeah.
How are they showing up?
Like, what are people seeing in them?
And, like, how are they responding?
Yeah.
It's really neat to see, especially when we first started working on this podcast together.
Um, yeah.
And our meetings with, um, the original ABG girls, like it is, it's a job, it is a job.
So like it was really cool to see each other's corporate personas come out.
Yeah.
Because like, even though this is, this is like a passion project, something like we all wanted to do as friends, it is still a job and we kind of have bosses and so yeah, it was really neat to see both mads and jen in like the corporate context, because i'm like i've never seen you in this way before and it's like awesome.
It's awesome to see like, this version of you come out yeah, and you get just crazy.
You get to see them shine and she's like oh, my god Go.
KPIs.
Metrics.
Metrics.
Roadmaps.
Yeah.
I think it's also cool knowing the like work traumas or work triggers that your friends are often bitching about.
And there's often patterns too.
And like, why did that comment really set them off versus some other random comment?
They were like, whatever, I don't care.
And it usually is tied to like something in them and their wiring or things that they believe about themselves or things that are more like sensitive areas that they have such a reaction to that.
And knowing those things is really valuable.
So like for example, in an ABG context, there was this email that I was supposed to send by a certain day that I said I was gonna send, and then we were up really late in a meeting doing something else and I felt like I still had to send that email because I said I was going to by that time.
And my tendency is to over- Absorb.
Yes, my tendency is overwork and that comes from feeling like every little mistake or everything that I've missed feels really big.
For me goes back to the ages of having to work extra hard to prove yourself.
Blah blah, blah.
Yeah.
But Mads and Em were just like, Jay, you need to go to bed now.
Send it tomorrow morning.
It's gonna be fine.
You're not a failure.
They're just like flinging like affirmations over me that I needed to hear.
And it was so like, I was so emotional from it because I was like oh, you guys know and remember and notice those things that I would get worked up about from my work context and then could love me so much in that way.
Like see you spiraling and immediately stop it.
We're just like, no, no.
It's OK.
You're not going to die.
We know the action is uncomfortable.
Divorce how you feel.
You're going to do a good job regardless of if it's this hour or in six hours.
There's no difference.
So it was funny because it started out so like, it's okay.
You're going to feel like you should don't just go to bed.
And I was like I'm literally going to be so mad at you if you send this email and I see it in my inbox before tomorrow morning.
Because you kept pushing.
You were just like, no, it's fine.
I'm just going to send it.
It's fine.
It's just like 30 more minutes.
I was like, I really think I should.
It's not fine.
I'm like, you need to value your sleep.
Yeah.
You need to follow your health.
So in that same way, when we're sharing our work traumas with each other, you can kind of see your friends' wirings and their triggers, but also their soft spots too.
I can affirm them when their manager says a rude comment to them and you're like, that is not true.
You are not that.
It's an opportunity to pay attention and hear your friends.
It's really cool.
It's kind of like I like to describe it as like it's like an argument that you don't have to have with them and you can just receive the back end of the resolution.
Yeah, so it's just like, they're angry, and then you can talk through it with them.
And then you can kind of distill what's important to them and be like okay, now I know what makes them angry, what grinds their gears.
But I didn't have to grind their gears.
Someone else did.
Oh, that's so true.
Yeah, someone else did.
And now I get to apply what I've learned.
Into our relationship.
Yeah.
And it doesn't even have to be in a work context.
So good.
Yeah.
So it's just like it's an opportunity to like get to know your friends deeper by like hearing out their, their work, traumas.
Yeah.
Because there's a reason certain things trigger us more than others.
They point to something.
It pokes a soft spot.
The arguments you don't have to have, that's good.
It's all reward.
I need to savor that for a moment.
It's all reward.
But you just have to kind of take their hand and be like, okay, I'm sorry you went through this.
Let's talk through it.
And then you're just noted.
Yeah.
I will not comment on that part in the future.
I will affirm extra much in this area for them next time.
Yeah, yeah.
So listening to each other's work traumas is like a form of loving your friends.
Aww.
Yeah, I love that.
I'm so proud of knowing all of your work drama deeply.
It's like a sitcom, honestly.
Yeah, I'm like, what did character number seven do today?
How dare they?
They did that last week, didn't they?
Or like if one of you just grunts, I'll just throw out, is it X, Y, Z?
Yeah, yeah.
That sounds like ABC again.
Did that person ping you again?
Yeah.
I'd be doing that.
So much intimacy in that.
Yeah, there really is.
So, thank you for joining our rant-fest.
But also, I think it's really cool for us to rant together.
It's important to rant together.
In fact, it's essential to rant together.
It's cathartic.
Yes.
Actually, it really is.
It's necessary.
You can yell at each other without yelling at each other.
Once again, all reward.
All reward.
So we hope you have the arguments you never have to have with your friends by hearing all of the arguments they're having with other people.
Yeah.
It's great.
It's great.
I love it.
All right.
Well, work trauma is inevitable.
It will always be there, but you can always count on your friends to be a great listener.
And maybe this week, challenge yourself to listen to your friends' work traumas with a new lens.
Like, this is how I can know you better.
This is how I can love you better.
Yeah, and also just know you're not alone being an Asian American woman in corporate.
Like we did, like we've, yes.
This was just the tip of the iceberg of all the stories we have, so.
We out here.
We out here.
We out here.
All right.
Go forth and pursue.
Thanks for joining us on this episode.
We'll be releasing episodes every week and we hope to see you on the next one.
