Alright, I just know this episode is going to be one of your favorites because it's one of my favorites.
My producer, Jesse came to me asking some questions and I said, wait, wait, let's pause, let's record this because this so deeply resonates with me and everything I'm going through.
And I just have a feeling other people are going to experience the same thing.
Jesse came to me to ask questions about mom and dad friendships.
How do we create friendships when we have kids?
What happens when we're friends with our kids, friends, parents, but then those kids stop being friends?
Why does so much come up for us when our kids are going through tricky friendship moments?
And boy, did Jesse get me at the right moment, because I am personally going through so many of these things.
I'm asking myself these questions.
And so Jesse and I are going to kind of go on this journey together and we're going to share it with you because I have a feeling some of you are on that journey right along with us.
I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside.
We'll be back right after this.
So I went on a trip with some of my girlfriends a couple months ago and we are all busy parents.
It is so hard to coordinate schedules.
And honestly, it's even challenging to allow myself to really prioritize that trip for myself.
And two things are true.
I know it's so important to do.
So we booked an Airbnb and it was just the best decision for us because we rarely get uninterrupted time together in the hotel we had been considering.
Hotels just don't give us the kind of space we actually needed because we just realized the best part of those trips isn't meeting over a meal or an activity.
It's kind of like those in between moments, those conversations, those memories that we have when we're just having coffee in our pajamas or getting ready for dinner and together in the bathroom.
And naturally only possible because we were all staying together.
Airbnb gave us the best of both worlds.
I mean we each had our own bedrooms which felt important in adulthood.
And we had shared space for all of that in between best time.
So if you're looking to plan a trip with your friends or family to take some dedicated time to really bond and come together, this is it.
Go to Airbnb and find your weekend getaway.
You deserve it. Before we even kind of can get into the guiding our kids on their relationships, I had a lot of questions for you about friendships as a parent.
And the first one, which we want to just kind of dive in is should we make it our job or make a real effort to befriend the parents of our kids' friends?
It's a great question.
And my answer will probably be nuanced.
But I think you weren't expecting a yes, no, next question.
If I had to pick a side, I'm going to be more toward yes.
But there's a couple things.
First of all, it never makes sense to befriend with someone who is toxic or is awful to you.
Right. So I'll put that out there as a start.
And I think it probably depends on the age of our kids.
But I'm going to think about like the younger of my kids.
Like right. My youngest is six.
I'm thinking even, you know, when my kids are even younger that our kids aren't at that point great communicators with the other kids about larger issues.
Certainly they're not communicators about logistics.
They're not communicators of like different things that do or do not happen at someone's house.
They're not great communicators of there's certain rules.
Let's say I want to follow.
And well, what is it like at your house?
Like we can't expect our kids to manage that.
And so to that degree, I think it's just really helpful to have an open line of communication.
And it's hard to have any open line of communication with an adult if you don't have some foundation of connection and friendship with them.
Right. Because we know when our kids are younger, friendship moments can feel really tricky.
And I'm not one for micromanaging.
But I do think sometimes there are moments when you want to talk to another parent.
And if the first time you're talking to a parent is around a conflict and you don't have any foundation of, hey, what kind of person are you?
What shows do you like?
Let's grab a coffee.
Those moments are hard.
The next thing that's just very much in my mind right now is I think about how powerful it is to have collective action around certain things like screen time rules, like phone guidelines, like ages our kids get certain apps or phones.
Certainly when our kids are, quote, the only one who doesn't have blank, it's really hard to parent in a way that is even in line with our own values because we know our kid is feeling really left out and that's very legitimate.
And so to me, I can speak to my own kind of friendships with my kids, friends, parents, where having a group where we talk to each other, we can say, hey, my kid said that the only one who isn't allowed to be on an iPad at 7 a .m.
And when I have friends who say that's so not true, you know, we don't do that in our house.
I'm like, oh, right, it's really helpful to just hear that back.
I can respond in such a different way.
The other night, I just hosted a Zoom for my daughters in third grade.
And so there's a group of like eight of us moms who are just getting together and talking about what apps our kids do or do not have on a device they use.
Do anyone have a phone?
What age do we think about phones?
What kind of phone can we at least say, like, let's keep talking about it.
Let's set a date in a couple of months, right?
I mean, that gives me so much relief because it's not just about making friends with the other parents.
It actually helps me parent my own kid in a way that I feel better about having that open communication.
The other thing I'll say, and then we can move on to your next question, is I think it's just nice to have a couple friends who are kind of going through the same thing you're going through, whether it's, oh, I can't believe that the administration didn't let us know about this thing at school.
So it's just helpful to have a friend in the school that you can say that to, oh, did you hear about this birthday party?
What happened? Let's talk about it.
Like, it's just so nice to be able to share those moments with people.
And I know for me, having someone who's the parent of one of my kids' friends like really allows for that kind of in the moment, right now, this is relevant kind of conversations.
So I could go actually two ways with this, but I might choose this one.
With an older kid, you have longer to develop relationships.
And sometimes, or at least in my household and in a lot of ways, a lot of my friends are my oldest kids' friends' parents.
And as the kid gets older, who she wants to play with and hang out with, especially, you know, as you get later elementary school changes and who she likes and who her best friend is, which can affect your relationship.
You know, if you were really tight with a family who lives next door and then suddenly the kids don't want to play together anymore, does that mean you can't have backyard barbecues?
And how do you think about navigating that?
This is the ultimate.
And, you know, to be honest, I feel some of this myself, you know, I think as our kids go from elementary to middle school, I think probably more middle to high school, they become increasingly independent.
I'm a big fan always of wanting our kids to kind of drive their relationships, but certainly we just do have an element of control when our kids are younger.
We're the ones planning the play dates and our kids sometimes are also just more open, sure.
Oh my god that sounds good.
And then they develop preferences, right?
So we have less control and they have more preferences as they get older.
And then meanwhile, we had this like best friend and our sons were also best friends and now our sons never really hang out.
And maybe it's contentious.
Maybe it's not contentious, but it just is awkward.
Right. So does that mean we can't have a backyard barbecue together?
No, I don't think that.
And in fact, I actually think it's a really good thing for kids to learn.
My preferences don't dictate everything about what my family does.
I actually think that's hugely important.
That's why I think it's important to bring your kids to their sibling's soccer games, even when they could have a play date because they might be bored and internally you could say this is actually the point, this is actually the point.
Like, I'm not going to say that to them, but the point is for them to go and realize the world does not just revolve around their desires and wishes.
Same thing with the barbecue.
Oh, you'd rather have a barbecue with that person.
Again, this is where we have to hold two things as true.
I have to be empathic.
I get that. It's a little awkward with this friend now.
You haven't talked in a while.
I totally understand that.
Also just want to be totally transparent.
Me and that person's mom or dad, we're still pretty close.
And that friendship still means a lot.
And so I am going to ask you to show up as your most friendly open -minded self.
And it's true. You're right.
That friend doesn't really want to play sports and you're really into sports right now, and he's probably going to ask you to play chess.
And I know you know how to play chess, and I think it would just be really cool.
If you brought that part of you forward, you know, I know you can do it.
Even though it's not your favorite.
Love you. Right? Yeah.
I think that's really, really important.
I think on the parent friendship side, I think we have to feel our way into those conversations too.
There are some friends, you know, I think where people can be out together and say, Hey, just want a person brings up naturally.
I know like we're having coffee still all the time and our boys aren't really hanging out.
That's kind of awkward.
I'm sure we'll each at times have weird feelings about that and let's just communicate the way we've always communicated, open, direct, most generous interpretation.
How do you feel about that?
Great, great. Okay.
There's other times where it feels like, Oh, it's like this elephant in the room.
Right. And I think elephants in the room have never done wonders for relationships because we dance around it or we act out our feelings about an elephant in the room in a kind of random concrete way.
So let's say it's you and me, Jesse, and our boys are always friends.
And now I feel like my kid is left out because your kid wants to hang out with other people and I never name it.
Like, you know, you say to me, Hey, for that barbecue.
Can I come over at, um, six instead of five 30?
I'm like, you know, that really doesn't work.
That really doesn't work.
No, like she's, I can't believe Jesse's so rude.
She's asking for half an hour.
Meanwhile, what's really happening?
It's like, I feel her and I feel like you and your son haven't really included my son in this thing.
And so I'm like standing my ground in some like totally absurd way, but I don't even realize it because it's just a representation.
And so I think when we have elephants in the room in any dynamic, I think about this in business and a marriage and a friendship, it just comes out.
And then we have so much conflict because we're just not talking about the thing.
And so I think talking about the thing I always say a value truth over comfort is important.
And I think we can hold that next to having a most generous interpretation.
Hey, Jesse, I just want to come out and say this.
I, I sometimes say, like, I try not to have elephants in the room.
And I think this has been one.
So let's kind of squash that.
Our kids aren't really hanging out that much anymore.
And look, it's messy.
Honestly, I don't really know what my feeling is versus my son's feeling.
It's hard to disentangle whose is whose, but there's definitely been moments that things haven't felt great.
And I know you're a really good person.
It's why I love being friends with you.
I just had to say that to like break the ice.
And as we navigate our friendship, which I really want to maintain, I'm sure there'll be moments where we just have to like talk about things and just want to put that out there.
How do you think it's been going?
And so I think as our kids' friendships shift, I think it does require us to kind of up -level our vulnerability and our direct communication if we want to maintain friendships with the parents of those kids.
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I also have a question around advice for your kids because I grew up moving all the time, so I never had that like experience where I knew kids from kindergarten and I never had this rich friend base that was based on a long childhood relationship and I maybe didn't invest in people in the same way
that I would have if I knew we were going to be there longterm.
So it's not that I didn't have best friends, but I didn't put a lot of stock in it and I now have one of my kids really, that is just her mission.
She just wants one person to pick her and will love her the most.
I mean, like truly, like we have all these conversations and I feel like she's on this quest and she has a lot of friends and I'm like, that's so great.
You like, you, you have friends at this and you have friends at dance and friends that, you know, you have, you have all these friends and they can, you know, fuel you in other ways, but, but she just wants this one person.
And I, I feel at a loss.
Yeah. Uh, so first of all, I get that.
We like see these friendship patterns with our kids.
I also think we, we look forward to like, that's not gonna be good for you.
Or like, that's not how I operate, right?
That's not how I did things.
And so I have found as my kids get older, the work I have to do to disentangle, like what's mine, what's theirs is like so much greater than when they were younger.
I was like, I didn't know I still had so much baggage that gets kicked up when my kid goes through different friendship things, but I guess I do.
So as a principle, I often think that when our kids are doing something, we want them to stop doing, or we think is not good for them.
Most of us, me included, if you're a normal human, your first instinct is to try to convince them why that's not like a good route, right?
Cause we want to protect our kids and we love our kids.
And yet all that ends up doing is both leaving kiddo alone in like why this thing is even important to them.
And then it actually makes them cling onto it more.
Right. Because they don't really have another option because it feels like someone's saying, you don't have a reason for doing this.
They obviously have some reason to do it.
So then they have to manifest that reason as like holding onto the behavior instead of understanding themselves.
So the irony is when you want your kid to stop doing a certain behavior, you recognize a certain pattern isn't good for them.
The first thing we have to do after we fight the first urge is to actually get to know that behavior better.
We actually have to get more of an understanding of what works for our kid about that, which is completely counterintuitive.
So that would sound like, Hey, is there a specific one, one?
It is it one specific person or it always has to just be one person.
It doesn't matter. I think she'd be open to it being, you know, whoever just like she told me, I just, I want someone who, if they had two Taylor Swift tickets, they would pick me to go with them.
And I was like, yeah.
Every time, by the way, if someone has an extra Taylor Swift ticket, who's listening, like, please send me a message.
Yes. Me too. Haven't gone yet.
Okay. I'm just had to, like, I feel like there's an audience listening.
So I just like have to manifest things.
So, okay. I just want someone where if they had two Taylor Swift tickets, like they'd pick me and maybe they even say, and they pick me every time, like every time it would be me, not just, you know, here and there.
So here's what I'd say next.
I mean, who knows if I'd say it, but here's what I'd want to say next.
Yeah. What would that feel like?
Okay. And either my kid's going to answer great, or they're gonna be like, I don't know.
Fine. If they say, I don't know, oh, would it feel like how good it feels to like order ice cream and the person say, Oh, you got a free topping today?
Like, would it feel like that?
Would it feel instead like they were like, no, no, no, no, not only do you get a free topping today, you actually get free ice cream for the whole rest of your life.
Um, just something to like, and it'll give our kids something to react to.
Right? For a kid, isn't like ice cream, use a different metaphor.
What would she say to that?
You think? I think she would say, um, I would feel amazing.
I think she would think that was really, yeah, great.
It would feel amazing.
So actually, this is where again, I would be like, my job is to actually like extend it, like I'm going to, I'm going to actually, instead of try to bring her to the other side, I'm going to almost like go further.
Oh, like, and that's where I'd say I feel amazing.
Oh, amazing. Like, I'm trying to think of the last couple of times you felt amazing.
Oh, you felt amazing when you scored the final basket to win the game.
And over time, um, that was amazing.
I know you also felt amazing when you're just like studying so hard for that math test and you're like, Oh, I figured this out.
I also know you felt amazing.
Um, when you got this award for this thing, is it any of those amazing to which a kid might say, Oh, it's more amazing.
I don't know. Would she say that?
Probably. Yeah. Okay.
It may be more. Oh my goodness.
Well, I just want to say this is helpful because I know those three things were amazing, like really amazing.
Now I'm like, wow, no wonder this feels so important.
Cause if it's like more amazing, like that, it's like the ultimate amazing.
It's like, Oh, and then this is where I got to say something like, it's almost like if you had a friend like that, it's almost like they're saying you are the most important, valuable, worthy, coolest, always want to be with you person in the world, almost like they'd be like saying that to you.
Do you think she'd be like, yeah.
Yes. I think she would be like, uh -huh.
Yeah. And then I'm like, I'm not even mad at saying something like that would be a really amazing way to feel like I want to be honest, like, I wish I felt like that about myself all the time.
Um, I don't. And then here's where I could like pontificate.
I think pontificating around our kids is way more powerful than lecturing our kids.
I don't, I mean, I'm trying to think could someone give me that feeling?
Like if my best friend Lauren was like, you're always the person for the concert.
And by the way, you're always a person for, um, the Patriots game.
And by the way, you're always the person for, you know, my trip to Paris.
And I'm, I'm against like listing things I'd like to do in life, cause people, you know, out there here.
Um, and like, Oh, would that make, I guess I would feel that would feel amazing.
Would it make me always feel, Oh, but then wait, what if Lauren then one day was like actually Jesse's though, Oh my goodness.
It's not kind of weird.
It's almost like if I felt this amazing with someone, I could probably also feel like this tiny, that's so tricky.
It's like, you have a friend who gives you the best feelings in the world.
But if they like pull the plug, it's like, Oh my goodness.
Like I was so used to you giving me the best feeling in the world.
Now I have like no good feelings in the world.
Okay. I'm obviously just modeling this in front of you.
Tell me your reaction to it.
What resonates, what's like, Oh, I feel like that's offer how you think that would or would not in some way hit her in the right spot.
I mean, I'm just really thinking about the, the power that she is giving this relationship.
Yes. And we, I guess what I'm saying through this, we can't convince our kids out of that we can't ever convince anyone out of anything, but if our kid is saying a friendship with a certain person would essentially be the source of my self worth.
That's right. And we are nervous.
We're like, Oh my God, you're going to be in such toxic relationships when you get older, please don't do that.
That's not where she is.
Right. We have to like come back to today.
And to some degree, our kids job is to figure out when they're younger, what kind of relationships are healthy.
And they have to do that by the same way.
We have to learn things all the time by exploring, by trying things on, they try things on in their head.
Once they're a teen, they tend to try things on with their behavior.
They like don't believe the evidence unless they've like actually done it.
And so one of the things I think is heartening is like, my child is exploring this type of relationship that makes sense.
Because if the first time she's trying to explore that type of relationship is when she's like 35 and I don't know, dating someone like, Ooh, that, that does feel like it has like, you know, higher risks.
So actually this is like safe.
And as much as I want to, I can't say to my kid, I mean, I could, it just won't be effective.
That's not healthy.
Why does that matter to you so much?
Don't you know that you're good and valuable, even when you're sitting alone on the bed, not going to Taylor Swift concert?
Like we can say it, but I often think it just appeals to their brain.
And friendships and relationships.
Honestly, I would say 99 % of decisions that we end up making are not driven by our brain, they're driven by like the feelings we have and the search for feelings.
And what she's really saying to you is I'm trying to figure out how to feel really good about myself, even in the absence of someone telling me I'm the most amazing person in the world.
And I think that's what like all of us are trying to figure out at all points, all of our journey.
So it actually makes sense.
And I think as a parent, a couple of things like we have to tolerate that figuring these things out like takes time.
And by the way, I'm speaking to myself too, because I hear my husband being like, Becky, I hope you listen to this podcast for some of the stuff going on in our house where you feel so panicked.
So I'm just, you know, I need to hear this too.
It takes time. Number two, I do think about this a lot, the difference between teaching our kid what to think and how to think.
What to think is like the, you know, here's my advice and here's what I've learned as a life lesson.
All of this, like, how amazing would that feel?
Oh, would it be like this?
Oh, I guess it could be that high, but also that low.
That's kind of tricky.
Ooh, what about that?
I wonder if there's friends who never make you feel that high, but also don't ever make you feel that low.
Like which is better.
That's so messy. Right.
And meanwhile, to step out of that.
That is the dilemma of friendships.
There are people in adulthood who make us feel like a million bucks when they give us attention and then when they don't, we, we feel like zero.
Right? And that's hard to balance with someone who like is a pretty good friend, but like, it just doesn't give us that like addictive quality, but they're very stable.
This is again, something we go through.
And so I have found with my kids that if I can help them reflect on things, if I can help them learn how to think, I really do think that's what's protective because I can tell you, if my daughter comes to me one day and says, mom, I'm dating someone, listen, there are moments this person makes me feel like
amazing, like it kind of, they kind of make me feel like I'm like the only person in the world.
But you know, it's not great.
There are also moments where they make me feel like I don't even exist.
Like, I don't know, that's tricky.
I just feel like that's that would, now we can have a conversation.
The problem is when someone's in that mode and they like are just in it and they don't even understand what's going on and they can't even reflect on it.
So that's why I think asking these questions is super important.
I also think just with friendships like that, it's powerful to just make sure we build in moments for our kids to be building up confidence separate from their friendships, separate from their achievements, separate from their soccer goals, right, which I know you and I've, you know, talked about all
the different ways we honor our kid and what's going on inside them.
We notice their process over their product.
We, you know, celebrate their work.
Not their outcomes.
I mean, there's so many, you know, ways to do that.
That really matters too.
So we're not directly talking about different types of friendships, but we're actually talking about building up their core in a way that over time, they won't really be drawn as much of the type of friendships that give them the highs and lows because they can give themselves a little more of the highs.
Thank you. That was very, that was very helpful.
If you have time for it, I have one more question.
And this is around a new friendships, navigating being kind of that mom, which I'm okay with being that mom in a lot of ways, but I'm wondering, you know, as your kids edge out of play dates that you accompany them on and they start to have a new best friend in whatever second grade and they really
want to go to their house and I don't know the parent and we might've texted, but it's just coordinating.
What do you think is okay?
Or should, what am I allowed to ask that parent before my kid goes over to play at their house for the first time?
I mean, I think, I mean, I'll say it and then I'll give some, you know, more thoughts, I think you're allowed to ask that parent.
Whatever you want to ask that parent, like that's actually really important.
Now, what's the line between this is what I just want to ask and okay, like what am I really going for?
What relates to my kid's safety and my feeling safe enough?
What can I recognize?
Oh, like, is that my own kind of stuff and anxiety?
And do I hold that back?
That's like our own personal journey, I think, to figure out that line.
But I get why parents take play dates at other people's homes.
Seriously. There's things that can happen.
There's, you know, you're not sure about certain guidelines.
You want to know about certain supervision, right?
A lot of people are like, I want to know if there's a gun in the house.
I want to know where it is.
Like, so if that's on your mind and that's going to make you super anxious, whatever the thing is, I think that's a good thing to ask.
And then I think it's like about the how, like, how do I ask these things?
So it feels like we're on the same team rather than I'm making an accusation and I'm saying you're a bad parent.
I think that just comes down to communication skills.
And I think for me, one of the things I've learned is owning up front, my reason for asking and actually naming that makes it kind of impossible for someone else to interpret my question as coming from a different reason.
Cause I don't leave it up for grabs.
I'm actually just saying, you know, Hey, you know, so excited.
My kid's coming to your house, just putting this out there.
I've had some experiences with different people where X, Y, and Z happened.
And so it's just like on my mind now and to kind of soothe my own anxiety about that.
I'd love to ask you a few questions.
Is that cool? I think someone's been like, Oh, sure.
I'm happy to like help you out in that way.
As opposed to, Hey, I have a couple of questions before I allow my kid to come to your house, which you could say it that way, but going back to adult friendships, like, I don't know, for me, if someone said that to me, I tried to still hold a most generous interpretation, but I might feel like, Oh,
is this person not like I'm a responsible parent?
Right. So I think that's true across the board in partnerships, you know, with other adults, like just saying upfront, Hey, here's why this is on my mind.
Now, no one has to interpret it as ambiguous because you've made it pretty clear.
Is there anything that I didn't ask about that you want to say?
Uh, you know, I'm so grateful for you for just bringing this topic up because I'm living through so much of it myself.
So you and I, we have similar age kids, right?
So we go through these like life stages as a parent together, friendships are tricky and adult friendships are tricky and kid friendships are tricky.
And as our kids get older and gain more independence and play around with different relationship patterns, it's like it opens the seclusion of the magic memory box we have of things that we'd put away a long time ago.
I really did call my mom like a couple months ago.
I was like, did I have like a really awful middle school that I'm forgetting about?
Like was I left out a lot?
Was I like crying a lot?
Was I always anxious?
Cause like a lot's coming up for me since my son went to middle school.
And I know, I know enough to know like he actually seems okay, but I have a whole world activating.
It sounds like it's thoughts about him, but he's just a pawn in my own memory stuff I haven't worked out games.
So like, can you help me connect some dots?
And it was, it was actually, I felt really lucky of the relationship with her.
We actually worry about it.
I was like, Oh, okay.
I actually think that might be what's happening for me.
And so I just, you know, I empathize with you.
I'm going through it too.
Again, this is one of those places where I think we think we're going to teach our kids all the things and they teach us all the things if we allow them to.
So I think one of the most important things with kids friendships and how it manifests with us and adult friendships is really like owning that reflective process.
What's coming up for me about this?
Does this relate to anything I've gone through?
What are my fears? What about this might have more to do with me than my kid and not, Oh, because I'm messed up, not because we're messed up.
We're humans. We have stuff that lives inside of us that we forgot about that's finding stuff with our kids and saying, I remember that because I went through it.
And if you look at it through that compassionate lens, it'd be like, well, I could actually heal and like speak to and better understand so many things because of what's evoked as, you know, a parent in my mom or dad friendships.
And so anyone listening who's nodding or crying or feeling all types of things, I just want you to know, Jesse and I are hugging you and just nodding and saying, yes, us to us too.
Thank you, Becky. Thank you.
Thank you for listening to share a story or ask me a question, go to good inside .com slash podcast, or you could write me at podcast at good inside .com.
Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world.
And you deserve resources and support.
So you feel empowered and confident for this very important job you hold.
I'm so excited to share good inside membership.
It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents.
It's game -changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few minutes they have.
Good inside with dr.
Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise.
Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Knapp and Kristin Muller.
I would also like to thank Eric Abelski, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant and the rest of the good inside team.
And one last thing before I let you go.
Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.
Today's episode is in partnership with Airbnb.
