Bada bing, bada boo.
June 10th, 2022, Karen Reid is charged with murder.
She is accused of allegedly killing her Boston cop boyfriend, John O'Keefe.
Karen, state police, we have a search warrant.
I'm in my pajamas.
I don't even have shoes on.
I'm being charged with second-degree murder now?
That's correct.
She was accused of running him over, leaving him for dead in the snow outside of another Boston cop's house.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
For the past three years, Karen Reed has gone through a murder trial, a second murder trial.
And finally, June 18th, 2025, she is acquitted of murder.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
And this is her first formal sit down interview since the acquittal.
Welcome to Rotten Mango, Karen.
Hi, Stephanie.
Now, this is part two of our interview with Karen Reid.
If you haven't already, please listen to the episode prior to this for all of this to make sense.
And with that being said, let's just get into it.
Speaking of Auntie Bev, characterizing you as thinking something is funny.
I feel like during your trial there was so much emphasis on your demeanor, your expressions.
There are some crazy headlines that I think maybe you can clear the air on.
If you want to pass me exhibit A, So I'm going to read you the headline and the accompanying photo that they put with this headline.
Okay.
And then some comments.
And I feel like probably what happened is nothing like the headline.
I'm sure.
Thank you.
This is the first headline by the New York Post.
Of course.
Who does not like you for some reason.
And the headline is Karen Reid flashed sinister smirk as gory photos of her dead cop boyfriend are shown in court.
I'm imagining that was not...
No.
First of all, I'm talking.
My eyes are wide open.
I'm looking to that looks to my right.
That's Alan or Liza sitting there and I'm going something.
I mean I can.
I can reproduce that face very, very easily.
But I'm not smirking.
I'm actually just speaking.
And I don't think I spoke or turned at all when the the photos were shown.
I i looked, i mean, i remember this very clearly, but i i've seen those photos.
Yeah, they're on my phone.
Yeah, i've um, i've poured through them to his pores.
I know his photos.
I've watched his autopsy.
Those photos as, as shown in court, have had for years and I've analyzed it, took us there's, there's a burn mark on his sternum that we couldn't figure out for months what it was and finally realized I think I googled or described it to Google.
It was the.
He was burned with the defibrillator pads I'm just giving an example of.
They were horrifying to see.
For several weeks I told David not to upload them to the Dropbox that lived on my cell phone, because I didn't want there to be any chance I'd be scrolling through Dropbox and there it was.
The autopsy took me like a year.
It's quite gruesome.
I can't believe people do this for a living.
But I had to know everything So I could piece everything together.
But I don't believe I spoke ever or turned to speak to a lawyer while the photos of his body were up on the projection.
That's what we assumed.
But I do look like that when I talk sometimes, unfortunately.
This one is also wild.
Karen Reid rolls eyes snaps at defense team as she stands trial in murder of Boston cop boyfriend John O'Keefe.
Oh, I'm sure I rolled my eyes.
I know I have rolled my eyes many times.
I speak very emphatically to the defense team.
I'm very animated and emotional, but I have never snapped at them.
I imagine.
Even if I wanted to, which I've never wanted to, I would never do that.
But there were many times in trial that I looked at a lawyer.
It was easiest to look to David because my back would be to the camera, but I can't help it.
I definitely rolled my eyes during trial many times.
And honestly, it's crazy that they're doing this.
And the people's comments is even crazier because I don't know what people want from you.
Do they want you to steal it?
Do they want you to... You can't win for losing.
If you're crying, then...
I am out of tears.
I am out of tears about the tragedy of January 29th.
I have mourned for months and years before the public ever knew me.
So that's why lawyers advise you you've got to look at the way the jury's looking at it, that they're seeing those photos for the first time.
You have to pretend like you're looking.
It's hard for me to pretend much. it's it's i can't fake things then i feel like i look like a faker so i i try to be stoic um i could not cry i would not allow myself to cry i would not cry in front of the o'keefe's i would not cry in front of the prosecution um i felt both both of those groups were looking at this completely backwards they were refusing to see the truth or willingly not seeing looking at the truth um And I needed to stay strong.
I couldn't break down.
I did one day going into court.
I just had a really tough time getting out of the SUV.
It was just a rough morning.
I couldn't go up and down emotionally like that.
I had to go in strong.
I had to go in tough.
And I had to maintain it.
I had to control myself the best i could and i wasn't about to strap myself in to an emotional roller coaster.
I would never survive.
I had to do this twice.
So um i, i understand.
I do understand the public saying that's horrible what i just heard or what i just saw.
First of all, things that may have seemed emotional and upsetting to the public.
I may have found to be insincere, But a lot of the gruesome images I have dealt with and seen nearly daily,
I understand the reaction of the public expecting more emotion, but I have evolved to a different place.
You are just damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you had to go to lunch with either Lali or Brennan, who would you go to lunch with?
I would go with Brennan.
Oh, really?
Okay.
I would go with Brennan.
I feel that I make him very uncomfortable.
Your Honor my brief review of the lab paperwork and looking at the hoodie, it appears that I made a mistake.
We've had some stare-offs in the courtroom.
Lally, I don't have pleasant thoughts about either one of them.
I don't think they're honorable.
I don't think they have integrity.
I don't think they're honest.
I wouldn't want to eat or watch either of them eat.
But I think I'd have better stories to tell eating with Hank Brennan.
I saw online everyone calls Lally, Lally Lullaby.
You have one minute, Mr. Lally.
Wrap it up.
Yes, ma'am. all consistent with the pieces of taillight that are found within his clothing.
Very monotone.
I was really surprised at how neither seemed to really prepare much.
Like, Lally might have read.
I can't even remember.
You know, when you don't practice a memory, you don't remember it anymore.
And you tend not to want to practice painful memories.
So I can't remember if Lally read.
I think he did for his opening and closing arguments in the first trial.
But Brennan did not.
And I think he was trying I'm guessing if I had to guess that he was trying to convey an ease with the subject matter, a comfort and familiarity and conviction in the subject matter and an intelligence that i can speak extemporaneously about what this woman did.
I know so well and i believe so strongly that she did it that i'm going to walk around and pontificate um, and we were much more structured.
But i know the details of this case, i know, i know them and i know he He messed a lot of them up.
And I mean, the jurors didn't have their notebooks in closing argument.
So it was probably lost on them, luckily for Brennan.
But he should have written at least some bullets for the details, for the data points.
Clearly, this is a hypothetical question.
If you could put at least two people involved in your case, inject them with truth serum, compel them to tell the truth, which two people would you choose?
Michael Proctor and Brian Albert.
What would you hypothetically want to know or ask?
The truth.
About that night, about everything?
The night, the months.
I have a pretty good guess of how things I've seen these men.
They were on tape sparring and shadowboxing just minutes before.
I can surmise, based on what I know of these people, what I know of John when he's been drinking, what I've seen of Colin Albert when I've had to cross paths with him, I can surmise what happened.
I'm more curious about whom they had to enlist in other events that unfolded over the following months as we made headway, probably much to their disbelief.
Have you run into them since the trial?
Any of them?
Like in public?
What would you do if you did?
That's a good question.
I want to say no, but let me think about it.
I was in a bar, I was at the Warren Tavern in Charlestown and a girl who works there is a very staunch supporter.
She was at many of the trial dates, and she had told me that Brian Albert had been in there.
I know that I've missed Brian Albert a couple times.
My guess is he is not embraced in Boston establishments the way... the way I am.
But no, I don't think I've run into think.
Thankfully I don't.
I don't care to see, I don't fantasize about it.
I, I don't need to see any of these people.
What about like people who think you're guilty?
Like, have you run into them in public?
And but how could you tell?
Because is that what they say how they act?
Yeah, I had one person out of, at this point, over several thousand come up to me on Hanover Street.
I was leaving a restaurant Saraceno's, where the owners have been incredibly hospitable to me and my legal team throughout trial.
We'd pop in there all the time.
And some woman, very haggard older woman, came up to me and asked me, right outside the restaurant we had just we had just left um and she came up to me on the, on the steps of saraceno's, and said how, how can you smile?
You, karen reed?
How can you smile?
And before i could, even i'd not had interaction like this at all.
This was in um.
This was in November of 2024, between the two trials.
I had not had an encounter like this.
And the owners of Saraceno's, they also own like a coffee shop right next door.
So they take up some real estate on that sidewalk.
Several of them came out and all but chased her down the street with pitchforks.
Shut up.
You're ignorant.
And she was...
She didn't seem to be of all her wits.
That is the only time that has happened.
We've spent most of our time in the seaport, just in our downtime, nearly every Friday.
I can't think of a Friday that eventually we didn't make our way to a restaurant.
You had to decompress no matter how exhausted, which we all were every Friday.
You had to blow off some steam.
Just be somewhere loud and talk to people and the support. at so many establishments, anywhere.
In Newbury Street, we were in the North End a lot.
I have not paid for a full drinks, appetizer, dinner, dessert tab in two years.
And it's all helped.
It's all helped get us there.
And especially for my lawyers, And my family, they're not me.
I know what support I have.
Everywhere I go, I'm supported.
They need to know it too, because when they go home between the trials, they're back to their I don't want to say obscurity, but just back to their normal lives.
But I can't thank the people in Boston proper, young couples, families.
Yeah, business proprietors, the people at the hotel two hotels we've stayed at a lot um just makes us feel so strong and, for me, makes me feel confident that if my jury is anything representative of the people i'm encountering every day, i will be okay.
Um, but the the, the public, the public that was very vocal at court and online on social media um, and the public that just came up to me one moment on the street and I never saw them again.
Um has helped, invigorate and steal each each, each one of us, even if We may not have acted.
I mean, there were times people came up for selfies and we were having There was a serious conversation Alan and I were having with Marty Weinberg at the end of the second trial.
And I said, Alan, I really have no money left.
I had... The last asset I had was my house and that... paid the bulk of trial two plus donations um but now i need to put wheels in motion for an appeal my parents are getting older my closest friend who's incredibly intelligent um is also incredibly busy professionally this was like a week before the closing argument and alan and i were in a restaurant it was quiet and we were talking to Marty Weinberg on speaker and it's funny I ended up seeing a photo I there was a woman at the bar of this restaurant that I could tell was taking our photo she was she was weird I I didn't actually see her take a photo but she was very interested in us I ended up seeing the photo of Alan and me on Twitter with some some salacious the headline and I thought I showed it to Alan I said if they only knew what we were actually if she had just walked over and spied on us the headline would have been even better than what the contrived heading the headline was which is Karen Reid and Alan Jackson overheard on speaker with Marty Weinberg discussing a potential conviction and Marty you know, Marty, we don't talk about a lot because he's just come in as a pinch hitter, but it's been in such major ways and the appeal, which was somewhat thankless because we didn't have any success with it after the, after the the first acquittal the mistrial but um I'll never forget that conversation with him it was I think a Sunday afternoon and I'm in a steakhouse with Alan talking to him and Marty says you're not going to need it Karen you're not going to need it but this is who I recommend this is the kind of retainer he's going to need you need to do this you need to do this and um it was a tough day I we walked back to the hotel and I felt I was probably like a little a little weepy um I don't remember how I got on that topic, but... I think someone was, like, asking for a selfie.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, someone.
So on the way home from that call with Marty, a daughter and mother had asked for selfies and I just like I couldn't.
The selfie question is very difficult.
A lot of times I'm eating or I'm having a private conversation.
I don't like how I look like any... normal 45-year-old woman.
I've been crying or I've been upset.
And then if you say no, then people think I'm a bitch.
Like, I'm supporting you.
You're on trial for murdering a cop.
You should be so lucky that I'm trying to support you.
But then...
If I do take the photo, it's on social media and I look like I'm enjoying my life.
I'm smiling and I look celebratory.
I cannot win that game.
I've turned people down for selfies and then they just walk a half a block back and take it.
Or they'll ask, well, can I have her?
If I'm with Liza, can I just take her selfie?
There's definitely.
I'm smart enough about gen z millennials and my gen x that i cannot interpret every selfie as staunch support for my innocence.
Yeah, there are people that ask for selfies that maybe don't even believe i'm innocent or don't know anything about the case, but know that i'm.
I've had people come up to me in the seaport and say are you famous?
Because they just saw it and then ask for a selfie and they don't even know who i am.
They're gonna post it and then and then start collecting the likes.
Yeah, i've had.
It's always been a guy too, like a gen z guy.
Who are you like?
Who are you?
I'm like you don't need to worry.
If you don't know, then you don't need to worry about it.
They're like are you on tv?
Yeah yeah, it's weird.
Have you been on the karen reed reddit pages?
One good thing about having such a high profile case that's played out publicly is if we're working on trial or working on a witness, and it's well.
When did when did Bukinick testify that the video was a true and accurate representation of the Sally Port?
I can just Google it.
I don't even, it's like, all right, what's quicker?
Do I go into my files with my library lookup system or do I just Google it?
And it says day 27, Bukinick testifies June 10th or whatever the date was.
So I have not purposefully gone on Reddit to look myself up, but I have done searches looking for details that have led me to Reddit.
And I've always been very pleased.
I may not be seeing the right things, but i've always been pleased at the discussions i've seen on reddit.
They seem um, they're intelligible and they're intelligent.
They're not as emotionally it seems anyway that they're not as emotionally charged as social media pages where there are people with targeted goals like.
I'm not on Twitter anymore, but I have popped on and off Twitter because there are some people that have actually done very good digging.
That's been helpful to me.
But I'll read a comment that Karen Reid looks like a leather handbag and she looks like a man with a wig.
I've read very physically demeaning things.
I'm like, clearly...
You are over-emotional for someone, for some unconnected third party.
You can say, I don't like the look on her face.
She looks guilty.
Or I don't like the sound of her voice.
She sounds arrogant.
But when it gets very personal, I think all right.
Which member of which family is?
This is too visceral.
You must be part of the shrapnel in this whole mess that you're saying.
I don't know.
No, I agree.
It's not exactly those comments, but they're trying to hurt me.
But they're so personal that it's so obvious it's one of these or it's one of those guys.
Scoofy.
I know that you legally cannot say a lot of things.
There are a lot of theories online about Canton's residents.
A girl must try.
So I'm just going to run them through you.
There is an online conspiracy that Brian Albert and his sister-in-law, Jen McCabe.
Jen!
Jen!
Are having an affair.
Do you know anything about that?
I do not know anything about that.
I had read things like that very early on.
John O'Keefe had told me when we first started dating in 2020.
So we started dating very early in the pandemic.
We had dated when we were in our early 20s, but we dated, we reconnected.
He reached out to me during the pandemic.
I think just because everyone was stranded at home and resorting to social networking.
And he had told me, like our second date, that there is a.
This according to John that there was.
There is was at that time a swinger scene in Canton which I had read in Boston magazine that there was one in a different Boston suburb.
I'd never read specifically about Canton, but John insisted there was.
And I think he can't be the only person and I can't be the second person that's heard that rumor fueled by these are people in their 40s, 50s and 60s, in some cases hanging out all the time, drinking very late, drinking with family, um.
So I don't know if there's truth to it, but I could see how how rumors like that start.
I had heard it from John, not about anyone in particular, but about couples in Canton House long to die in cold.
What's the weirdest thing you've ever Googled?
What's the weirdest thing I've ever Googled, at like two in the morning, oh god uh, i'm sure i've googled something weird.
I haven't googled anything incriminating.
Yeah, i'm sure it had something to do with like, matching wires on a chandelier at my house or something like to do with fixing something like what is this bolt that's sticking out of my lawnmower or something.
But um, i don't know, i don't think i've googled something like yeah, pervert it pervert.
There is an online rumor that jen mccabe has voodoo dolls, plural of you.
Do you believe it?
Uh, i don't believe that.
You don't, i don't.
That's good okay, because that would be creepy.
I don't know how i would feel if someone had voodoo dolls of me.
It's not working.
Yeah, that's true.
My husband saw a post on Chinese social media.
A former student of yours wrote, and this is translated, so I'm going to read it.
Karen Reed was my university professor.
Back when I was applying for graduate school, she was the one who wrote my recommendation letter.
She is sharp-minded, always positive, and someone I often had long, inspiring talks with.
She encouraged me a lot.
She even told me how I should learn to protect myself in the future.
The financial industry is not a stranger to male supervisors and female subordinates with quid pro quo situations.
I watched all the livestream news coverage of her trial.
I tried to stay in touch, but I couldn't find her LinkedIn, so I decided to write this post to commemorate her.
She will always have a special place in my heart.
Is her name Claire?
Can you check?
You remember?
There was a group of Chinese students I had around 2018 that I got very close with and they would just hang around and it stood out to me because it was winter semester and I taught till about like 10 at night.
So when a student stuck around, they'd walk me to my car.
I did bond with that group and one in particular named claire, but i it might not be, because i think i am connected to her on linkedin.
I'm sad i didn't.
I don't speak chinese, because i would have.
I never saw that.
Oh my god yeah um, the name i saw was lulu chan.
Maybe that's her chinese.
Oh oh, oh.
Oh, i do know who that is.
I do know.
Oh my god um, I have not thought about her in a minute because of all that's happened.
I do know exactly who that is.
You remember all your students?
I remember her.
No, because if you write a letter and she's saying we had these conversations and I was I, I I remember um very petite and long, long hair.
And she was very, um, very, very trendy.
I remember Lulu.
She even said that one time she walked into the class and you compliment her on her shoes and bag.
Yeah.
I was just going to remember her bags.
I was just trying to, she's saying you're the most fashionable teacher.
That didn't, that's, that doesn't take much.
Um, that doesn't take much.
Yeah.
She was very fashionable, very earnest.
And, um, I know exactly who she is.
Um, so hi Lulu.
I hope you're doing well.
Do you miss teaching?
Do you like, I do.
Yeah.
What did you mainly teach?
Like so finance, but like what I've taught um, I taught a few different courses, but mainly I taught an introduction to capital markets.
Um, like how the stock market works, how a company goes public, how to analyze a company's financial statements.
We did a lot of real-world examples.
I taught through the financial crisis.
I started teaching in 07 or 08.
I started at Fidelity in 07.
And I started teaching in 08.
I felt at Fidelity, I was very, very much junior.
I was a very small fish and just the best pond to be in.
But it was difficult on my self-esteem.
It was a lot of strong personalities, incredibly intelligent people, the biggest investors literally the biggest investors.
It was a great place.
I would never have left on my own accord if I didn't have to.
But I felt just for my self-esteem, I wanted to do more.
I felt like teaching kept me sharp in a different way.
Work, I was always, my full-time job, I was always learning.
But teaching, you have to be prepared every class That there is a student smarter than you, or many students smarter than you, at least on some topic.
That there is something they have.
He or she has a personal interest in broad or narrow, and they are going to know more than you.
And you have to know how deep can I prepare?
How much can I help? enhance the subject matter?
And when do you say, I am not familiar with that?
I'm not familiar with that company, or I'm not familiar with that investment product.
You cannot fake it.
And this is Bentley is not the Ivy League, but I had incredibly intelligent Ivy League worthy students every semester that I did learn things from.
But you've got to know your boundaries.
But you also want to push them that if there is interest from students in a topic that I'm not overly comfortable in, how much can I learn so that we can extend this topic?
But I loved it.
I love the students.
I love being back on campus.
I've always been connected to Bentley.
My dad's worked there my entire life.
I went to basketball camps there in high school.
I went to undergrad.
I went to grad there.
And I miss it, but...
This, I haven't chosen this, but this is what I'm, this was the bigger purpose for me.
I don't have children.
I don't see that happening at this point.
But my legacy is going to be my impact on Massachusetts and possibly broader criminal justice.
And what I did at Bentley and what I did at Fidelity can be easily understood.
Maybe Bentley, not so easily because teachers, you have freedom and subjectivity to turn a class into whatever you wanna turn it into.
But this is, like it or not, this is what I'm here for and this is what my parents and my friends and my lawyers this is why they went to law school.
We're going to change, we've already changed things.
Even if I was convicted, The change has happened.
People, even if that jury came back and convicted me.
People who watched every day of that trial or three days of the trial know what they saw.
They don't need a jury anymore. to confirm it for them.
I've read comments online when I've indulged against my better instincts that I'm going to let it play out.
It hasn't been, I'm not going to abide this conspiracy.
It's all up to the jury.
I've read many comments like that.
It's usually from the other side, the baddies.
Let it play out.
This is for a jury to decide.
Like, what a narrow-minded way to go through life that i'm gonna let a jury tell me, i mean, it's one thing.
If you don't watch it, then i guess you, the jury, is the next best thing.
What is their opinion?
Juries tend to be reasonable, but Read the filings.
Watch the witnesses.
You're going to let someone else make up your mind for you?
That's like having someone else tell you who should be president.
Well, I didn't vote for this president, but that's what the majority says, so that's who it should be.
It's, those comments are, it's just a cop out.
It's a way to not address the elephant in the room.
Would you ever be a lawyer?
Like would you ever become one?
Never.
Never?
Never, never.
I feel the system is too broken and I'm too old.
I think if I were younger and I had more energy, And I hope our law clerks, who we were so blessed to have, which was a brainchild of Alan Jackson's before the first trial, like, I'm running out of money.
I've got a house.
And then I'm out.
And then I just have to hope the charity of others gets me there.
And he said, well, I've got an idea.
Let's see if there's any law students.
We've got the best universities up here.
Let's see if any... third-year law students want to help.
And we just got a rush.
David went to BC Law.
Alan went to Harvard.
And we had a week of interviews.
Zooms.
David and I interviewed.
Each law school sent out a wanted email.
David and I
Did the BC interviews.
Alan and Liza did the Harvard.
And we probably did about 40.
And that was all.
We could have taken more.
Probably did 40 each.
And we each picked our favorites.
And then I think we each... Then we kind of convened on the others.
And my pick...
So I interviewed the Harvard, the BC.
My number one pick from the jump was Evan Wolk, who ended up working on the trial the most for us.
They were all great.
And then towards the end of trial, Evan had a contract to work at a big firm in the seaport.
And I said, I would love for you to go work with Alan.
Like cause, he just admired.
He and Alan got on and Liza, the three of them, like there was a real Alan and Liza have a great relationship, complementary dynamic.
And Evan just fit right in.
And I kind of engineered it.
I would talk to Evan privately.
And then I would talk to Alan.
And now Evan's with Alan.
Alan and Liza interviewed the Harvard students.
And we ended up choosing four or five.
Among them was the editor of the Harvard Law Review.
She's no longer.
She's graduated.
But Sophia Hunt, she was kind of our leader of the interns, like the conduit between the interns and Liza who was managing the interns.
But we could not have done what we did in the second trial with a whole new prosecution, new witnesses trying to keep out that, the voir dire and the Daubert hearings which we did not have the first trial.
It took us three days to get Dr Russell qualified to testify in trial two.
This is after she's already testified in trial one.
I had to fly her up here for three days of hearings.
Same with ARCA.
I can't remember if we had to voir dire or dauber Dr. LaPosada.
But every witness that Brennan could challenge, every expert he did.
And we could never have handled that.
We did not have the bandwidth without these law students.
I mean, they they would sleep at the hotel on couches in our rooms.
They'd wear the same suits the next day.
I mean, they were indefatigable and just a total, total life lifesaver.
They become like, like. family to us.
They helped save my life.
And I didn't know them one minute, and hopefully I know them forever now.
Did you guys have a group chat?
We did.
We called it the, I don't know if you heard the name for the ARCA witnesses.
They were called- Crash Daddies?
Crash Daddies.
Our group name for the third year law students was Crash Graddies.
God, that's so good yeah oh, because they all graduated uh, and and one of our interns was getting married, graduating and moving to Chicago to start her job all within like two weeks.
So they were all one.
Uh Sophie, who's I is like a little more like a daughter to me, I guess, but I treat her like a little sister.
She hasn't graduated yet, but the other eight have all graduated.
So our group thread That lot I think it's me with the eight of them or the nine of them was Crash Gratis.
That's so good.
Speaking of, have you seen the clip where it appears that Auntie Bev?
It appears from social opinion that she's checking out Crash Daddy?
Uh-huh.
I have to show you later.
I've seen that.
It's played in slow motion, which anything in slow motion that's how you get exhibit A is pausing things at the wrong time.
She seems too self-conscious of a woman to have done that, knowing she was on camera.
But what you're referring to, I have seen.
You're going to stay in Massachusetts forever.
No, God, I hope I don't have to stay forever. much longer in Massachusetts.
Where do you want to live?
Anywhere but Massachusetts.
49 other states.
Yeah, anywhere.
I could be in the middle of the woods.
I could be on a farm.
I could be on the water.
I don't care.
I care who I'm with.
I...
I don't want to see another Massachusetts state trooper.
I don't care if they're reformed or under a different colonel.
I have taken too many shots at law enforcement to feel protected by law enforcement, although we have had many positive experiences.
I hope law enforcement that supports me or at least believes me in Massachusetts understands what has happened to me at the hands of law enforcement and why I feel the way I do.
My grandfather, my mother's father was a police officer.
Obviously John was a police officer.
I am not anti-law enforcement, but I have had many, many members of law enforcement um, abuse my rights and lie um, And that's as far as I'll go.
And I can prove that they have lied.
I hope the good law enforcement knows why I feel the way I do.
But I don't feel safe in Massachusetts.
I don't feel that the politics are safe.
It's not that those problems don't exist everywhere else.
But I don't want to be a lawyer.
I don't want to see any more of the law.
I will try to make change in other ways, but uh the, the legal system just feels so broken.
I look at my lawyers and i just think why?
What made you go into this?
You're just such an underdog.
You're battling the resources of the state, sometimes with the defendant that can't even make bail, and then how do you hire the, the crash, crash daddies and la pasada and dr russell um, And the government can go with a blank check to Aperture and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and pay a special prosecutor hundreds of thousands of dollars.
You want to make change, but not get into law.
Where do you see yourself like in five years?
Where would you hope your life to be?
I hope within five years we've written the book, which I think will take longer.
I'm not even.
I can get there if I have to, but I'm not even in the headspace to start regurgitating and reliving all this.
I, I would, and I, I need the money.
So I'm I'll, I'll do it when I have to start doing it but um, I I think the easiest thing I can do is just keep telling the story.
There are so many facets to this that the public doesn't know just because there hasn't been.
I mean, this is my first real interview.
There's so much of what is entailed in this fight and that you know more about this case than average, partly because it's played out twice and it's about to be played out in a different form, a third time.
But what it takes to mount a defense, to even stay somewhat competitive to the prosecution.
I think the details, the financial costs, sweat equity, what these lawyers have to sacrifice.
It's amazing anyone's acquitted.
It really amazes me.
And my case was easy to prove.
My case was logical.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
And we still were met with just such a fight from the government that I've paid taxes to.
And they... threw everything at me that they could and didn't come close.
I think the public needs to know they need to be more careful.
They need to know their rights.
They need to know not ever to speak to law enforcement.
Unfortunately, we can't cooperate the way we would think we need to because, if God forbid this goes south, it will be used against you in a court of law.
It will be manipulated against you in a court of law.
It will be taken out of context against you in a court of law.
You know we're trying to put together this YouTube channel, Allen and I, And I read a couple comments.
Like, I'm done hearing from Karen.
What does she have to it?
I can tell you what it's like to be a defendant.
And I can tell you what it takes to beat the system.
It's a lot more than what you think.
I've lived now six months, three continuous at a time, with my defense team, with ancillary members of the defense team, with law students.
We had a documentary crew with us at one point.
It's emotional and trying and exhausting.
And there's a lot of choreography and personnel management.
I'll call it to walk into court looking how we looked every day and to be cohesive.
And I had three men in their 60s from three different firms, very seasoned in their careers, all having spent time as prosecutors.
And then Liza made partner along the way, also experienced with her own opinions.
We don't just show up and... put Kelly Deaver on the stand.
Everyone has their own experience and therefore their own strategy and their own way of doing things.
And they all fall on me to break the tie.
It's very, very trying.
It's why I feel this crash from trial, because it wasn't just sitting there and trying to keep my emotions in check, which sometimes I didn't do a very good job of.
It was what was happening.
Honestly, trial sitting there was oftentimes easier than having to go home.
The worst nights, the worst moments of trial at times were Monday and Tuesday nights, where we just had a grueling day at court and some big witness is coming on Thursday or worse, we think a big witness is coming Thursday but Brennan hasn't finalized the batting order yet.
So it could be the children are testifying on Thursday, or it could be um Buknick, or it could be Tully.
One of the four.
I mean, that's how it goes.
That's the dirty pool.
That's happening is we are finding out, sometimes within one day's notice, who was going to testify.
We were told that, um, no, I can't remember her name.
The, uh, dog DNA expert from UCAL Berkeley.
She was on the witness list.
We were told every Friday when the judge would call us up at sidebar and say, what are the plans?
Who's coming up next?
We were told every Friday, she's coming.
She should be coming this week.
We're trying to make travel arrangements.
She should be coming.
She never came.
And we have our own opinions about why she didn't testify.
But it wasn't as if we had this roadmap of trial. and we had some time to plan.
We, for example, did not know if we could call ARCA until trial had already started.
So Judge Cannone told Allen the morning of opening statements in trial two that she had not made up her mind about ARCA, and he was therefore disallowed from mentioning ARCA in his opening statements.
So that meant Hank Brennan presented his case and you're going to hear from Aperture, ladies and gentlemen, and two PhDs.
Oh, that's right.
Shannon Burgess lied about his degrees.
One PhD is going to tell you that that car backed up at 24 miles an hour, 62 feet, and it spun him around like a top and he fell, in practice, head open.
Then we get up to give opening statements and we've got the federally contracted ARCA PhDs who've done all this work, and we've had them now for a year and we can't mention them.
So if jurors were paying attention, they'd say, well, wait a minute.
So the prosecution has a physical reconstructionist who's going to tell us that car damaged that body and that body damaged that car.
But Reed doesn't have, what, why they can't prove it?
So they go into trial thinking, I don't think Reid can physically prove that this didn't happen.
This is Kanoni handicapping us.
So she said to Alan, the morning of opening, you have 10 minutes.
I have not ruled on ARCA.
And Alan said, your honor, it's in my opening statement.
I can't not talk about.
They're arguably our two most important witnesses.
And she said, you have 10 minutes to sit at the table and edit your opening.
And she gave him exactly that.
I've never seen Alan, and I've seen him in different states of pressure.
This was unspeakable, what she was putting him through.
And he is so choreographed and fastidious and meticulous.
And everything flows.
It's not a stream of consciousness.
It's something he's worked and massaged.
And he reiterates themes as he goes through.
He didn't just talk about ARCA once.
He introduced them in the beginning.
There was no collision.
There was no collision.
There was no collision with John O'Keefe.
There was no collision.
There was no collision.
There was no collision.
There was no collision.
There was no collision.
And then he goes into detail throughout that all had to be excised.
And still flow.
These are fights that we were made to endure that we shouldn't have.
And it was something like this multiple times a day of this magnitude.
So I think, long, long answer to your question about the next five years.
Even just for therapeutic reasons, I want people who care to know to know everything that happened.
You're still fighting.
So you had the two trials, but now there's a civil fight.
There's multiple civil fights.
How much is that going to cost?
My biggest expense is logistics.
So because the amount of work required is just so vast.
I mean it took three different firms Yannetti, DLA Piper, where Bob was from, and Worksman Jackson for two trials.
We didn't even make it through the first time around, we had to do it again.
And now I currently have three civil trials happening.
I have the O'Keeffe wrongful death suit in Plymouth County, Massachusetts.
I have my suit against Canton PD and Massachusetts State Police in Bristol County Massachusetts, both state.
And now I have the federal with the Alberts, McCabe's, Higgins, Proctor, Tully, and Bukinick.
So that's three.
Alan is still one of my attorneys.
I am not currently compensating Alan, but I do pay for all the travel and logistics.
I have paid modestly so far, she and Finney, but the amount of work they've done on a billable hour rate is already astronomical.
I mean, they're doing something robust for my case as I sit here right now.
They're amazing.
And there's three of them and they're all, just like Alan's firm, they're all complimentary.
They work together for a reason because they're good together.
The worst is over.
I am used to fighting now.
Any party to this thinks this is inflicting pain on me.
You don't understand what I've been through and what I've survived and what I can handle.
And you don't understand what's going on and what more is about to be revealed.
I mean, we were hamstrung, in our opinion, badly at trial.
There's more evidence and there's more of a story to tell.
Um, and it has to be done.
We have to finish this.
It's why alan is still involved, it's why damon, who was he was my parents attorney throughout the last year, but it's it's why damon wants to be a part of this civil suit as well.
But we have a lot more to do.
And luckily, we know this case so well.
So many of us know it so well.
It's just a matter of understanding civil law and how this all has to play out.
And it's even more tedious than the criminal court.
And I know you have a civil fund set up.
I'm gonna leave that in the description for people to support.
I think it's interesting because there is kind of this narrative that like you got a book deal.
You have all this money from the documentary, which we're finding out is not true.
You sold your house.
We do know that's true.
You lost years of your life that you could have been working.
You lost your careers.
You used up your savings.
You cashed out on your retirement.
You sold your treadmill.
I did so.
Who said that it was in an interview?
Did i say that?
Yeah, i didn't see that.
I did sell my treadmill.
Um i, i think i gave it to my neighbor.
Did my neighbor take my treadmill?
Yeah, i sold it to my neighbor.
Um, my neighbors were lovely.
Um, they're a young family and they had a baby.
In the middle of all this it was funny because um, I would not like a creep, but I would watch them out the window.
My bedroom faced their house and I would hear the little baby that was born.
I want to say their baby was born in the winter of 2022.
I would hear the baby outside and think What a juxtaposition that I'm going through this in this house.
And they're so lovely, my neighbors, my old neighbors.
And they're starting this family.
And when they bought the house, I don't even think they were married yet.
And they're growing.
The firstborn's getting bigger.
And it didn't make me sad.
It was like, life is always starting fresh.
And life...
It's not always happy.
It won't always be happy for them, but there's always another moment of happiness, even if there's tragedy in it.
But yeah, I have not made anything um not, not a dime.
I don't have a movie, i don't have a book.
When i do, you'll know um, and there are, there are obstacles even to that.
A book.
I i, my understanding is we, if we are authors, we could be given some some to write the book, almost as if we were taking a sabbatical to write this book.
With a movie, what I'm learning is someone like me who would be selling her life rights for the movie.
I wouldn't really be able to monetize that until the movie is actually in production, that my rights are actually.
It's like a stock option.
They're they're actually going to be.
The rights will actually be exercised.
So no, I live.
I love my parents um, but I don't know that the three of us need to live together until the end of time.
I'd love to live with them in a bigger house where we can spread out.
But no obviously, if I'm making millions or even hundreds of thousands of dollars, ask the people who live on country hill drive in north titan.
Uh, that's that's where i live and i'm lucky, i have them and i feel safe and i'm getting.
I'm lucky i can enjoy my parents at this age and we don't have this trial over our heads anymore.
But no, i'd like to be.
I'd like to be doing things.
I'd like to regain some more strength Physically.
I'd like to.
I don't know that I like to travel right now, but I'd like to be somewhere with the people I love.
And I haven't been able to because I don't have the resources.
I have had some very generous people help me in small ways and not so small ways. celebrate.
I've had people open their homes to me and uh and my family and really enjoy enjoy life for for a few moments.
People that owed me nothing and um uh, I've gotten a lot of offers I haven't taken and I've got a lot of work to do.
So wherever I go, I can't really just unplug, but I haven't made any money.
I haven't made any.
If you can find an example, if someone has a receipt, by all means, and I'll answer to it.
They can send it to you, and I will answer to that.
Speaking of money and movies, you're not making any money from the Amazon Prime movie, right?
With Elizabeth Banks?
Is it Amazon Prime?
Elizabeth Banks I thought was Hulu.
Oh, Hulu.
I have nothing to do with that.
Okay.
So I am not making any money.
I will not be making any money from that.
The new Lifetime movie.
So I just heard about that yesterday.
I refreshed my news feed and I saw the announcement from Lifetime.
And it's funny.
The actress...
I actually saw a still.
Apparently this is done.
They filmed this and it's coming out in January is I think what I read.
It's on their docket for January.
And the actress Katie Cassidy, her father, David Cassidy.
He was on a show in the 70s called The Partridge Family.
And it was a band.
Have you heard of The Partridge Family?
It was like in the Brady Bunch era, like bell bottoms and kind of poppy stuff.
Catchy music.
And they were a band, and they also had a TV show.
And he was like a teenage heartthrob, they used to call him.
And he had a brother, I think a half-brother, Sean Cassidy, who was also in a band in the late 70s.
They were in a Broadway play where they played brothers separated at birth and one went one side of the tracks and one went the other in London, and they reconnected unbeknownst to them and became best friends and then found out they were actual brothers.
And it was an amazing musical.
It was in 1995 that I saw this play with my family and David Cassidy was a star.
And I was talking to my dad last night and I said who would have thought I was 15 in 1995?
Who would have thought that we're in this little?
It's called the Music Box Theater right off Broadway in Midtown Manhattan?
Who would have thought that that?
I guess David Cassidy was maybe in his 40s at the time that his daughter would play me in a movie.
So I feel some kinship.
I've seen her in a remake of Nightmare on Elm Street.
That is the best version I've seen of that movie.
If you're into horror movies, it's good.
That's all I know about that.
I had nothing, I didn't even know it was happening.
I will not be seeing any... If they want to send me some money, I'll gladly take it.
But I didn't know anything about that.
You hear that, Lifetime?
If this is getting the story out, get it out.
It's compelling.
It's a moment in history.
I don't blame these people for making these movies.
But I will say...
I have gone through a lot of pain and lost a lot and you're telling my story to make money and you're not involving me.
How much will people take on my coattails and not show any economical appreciation.
So I wish these people luck in their endeavors.
But I hope they know what I've lost for them to tell this story.
I know that you guys are working on the YouTube show.
But if we were to end it on a lighter note, if I were to summon you with a magical spell, you have to pick five things or objects that speak to you.
What would you pick?
Five things or objects that speak to me?
Well, one easy one would be rosary beads.
I'm religious.
I don't pray as much as i should pray.
I should be praying many times a day and i do not.
But when i was in jail, both times i prayed the rosary without my rosary beads over and over, actually used it to help myself keep time because I know it takes me 15 minutes.
I have many.
I have a friend who actually gave me rosary beads that were made with yellow roses that were on John's casket because I was not at John's funeral, but she grabbed a handful of petals and made me rosary beads.
So those are very precious to me.
I had someone um, This is something that was just recently.
It's not in my possession, but it means something to me.
And I'd like to get my own copy.
Alan had a renowned courtroom artist in Los Angeles.
I believe she's retired now.
She just goes by the first name Mona.
She did a courtroom sketch, which is fascinating.
It's like looks like a mix of watercolor and like pencil.
And it's Alan.
In great detail.
It's very small.
It's Alan.
My parents are behind him.
Jen McKay, Brian Albert and Colin Albert it's during Closing Argument are in the O'Keeffe's gallery.
And I'm turning around looking at Alan.
And it was amazing.
I asked Alan if we can please commission her to do one that I can keep.
I've gotten like so many photos.
There's a photo that someone took in the courtroom.
There's two.
It's not really the photo, but it's that moment that I would never remember with the clarity without the photo.
But there's several of me kissing my dad that are just perfect.
And then there's one hugging my parents.
I know a gentleman named Greg Durr.
D-E-R-R is a photographer.
I think he's just part of the Associated Press or he works for the Boston Globe, but he's really commemorated some amazing moments.
But there's one where I'm hugging my parents after the verdict and my hair is kind of pulled tight and my fists are like this and I'm hugging and I just know exactly.
I know exactly how I felt.
There's a couple photos of my dad and me that don't even.
I kissed him every day and my mom, so I don't remember specific that moment, but hugging them after the verdict I remember.
Other than that, there aren't many objects that mean much to me.
I've learned to become more transient, less sentimental people through this process because I mean I had a house that was big for me, that I filled with things that I collected and are, and luckily I gave a lot of it to a cousin of mine who I know is going to look after it and I actually hope he keeps it all because I love him.
But I'm not too attached really to anything physically anymore.
When your freedom is on the line, none of this material stuff you, You could lose it all, and it all has a monetary value.
My treadmill had a... Granted, it was not used very much, but none of it means anything.
So I don't have too many objects.
There's photos.
I don't even know if those count.
But I don't have too many physical objects that mean all that much to me.
No, but those are...
Like the best ones.
The ones you just said.
I really hope.
Don't listen to those people.
I really hope that we hear a lot more from you talking about your own case yourself.
We're going to look forward to the YouTube show.
I think it's going to Hopefully come out around the time this comes out, hopefully.
We are going to be having a YouTube channel launch, hopefully in January 2026, The Read Files.
The Read Files.
The Read Files.
I'm going to link it.
That'll be Alan Jackson, Nick Rocco's going to host, and I'll be there on The Read.
Okay.
And that's a wrap!
