Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone and in this masterclass you will see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
Heather, thanks for joining us today.
Hi, Kwame.
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, it is my pleasure.
And thank you for having such a great conversation with me before that we can make an organic intro.
This is great.
Yeah.
How would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure.
My name is Heather Spilsbury.
I am the Chief Operating Officer at 5050 Women on Boards.
5050 Women on Boards is a nonprofit organization that's committed to advancing women to corporate boardrooms.
And we do that through a number of different pillars, but it really resides in four different areas, which is research education, advocacy and collaboration with key stakeholders.
This is great, Heather.
And the work that you and your team do every day, it's so important.
So I just want to start off with appreciation there.
And I also want to make sure I give you a shout out with your 50 Women to Watch program that's coming out too.
Can you tell us more about that?
What we wanted to do was curate a list of 50 women who are currently not serving on a public company board but are ready and prepared to for corporations that often come to us and tell us they can't find the right candidates or they're not sure how to diversify their boards or they're not able to find someone with that exact expertise.
So this list that's being published is extraordinary, because you can search for candidates by primary expertise, race and ethnicity, and also other categories that align with what a board might be looking for.
So we are extremely happy to be able to launch something like this so that we can help corporations get there, because we want to move away from the excuse that there aren't qualified candidates out there or that there's not someone in reach who you can tap into.
And the great thing about the list too, is that it's been confirmed by a selection committee of extraordinary non-gov chairs and chairs of organizations like Honest, Bright House Financial, Victoria's Secret.
Two of the selection committee members are also on the stock exchanges of TMX Group and Viva in Mexico.
So it's been great to see this group come together and really agree on who these finalists are.
So, in a sense, the candidates have already been vetted for these corporations, or even recruiters who are employed by the corporations to search for candidates.
They've already gone through that rigorous process through our campaign.
And so then they can tap into these women who they know can apply for the position, or then offer up someone else in their network to apply for it.
So we think it's a great initiative to be able to fill that gap where corporations are lacking some of that networking opportunity.
I love it.
This is great.
And it ties in really perfectly with what we're going to talk about today, which is using negotiation as a tool to elevate your career and negotiate your way to the top.
And so, based on your experience working with women and helping them to get into these higher positions within companies, can you outline what you would consider the biggest challenge that they face?
Yeah, it's interesting because I think some of the challenges are based on internal challenges that most women face, which is having the confidence to figure out what the next step is, or having the confidence to say this is something that I could actually do or actually provide value.
You know, there's a lot of research out there and a lot of examples about how women really won't even apply for a job unless they have all of the qualifications where they.
When you look at men who are applying, it's sometimes different in terms of how they approach what their next move is.
So what we do in our educational programs is you really teach women not only how to get on board and how to network effectively and how to build your board profile.
Those are the key elements, right?
Those are the tactical things that come out of it.
But really what we do too is make sure that they understand the value that they add to corporations.
And that value is so tangible.
These are really experienced senior leaders who are coming up in the pipeline, who have what it takes to not only serve on a board but potentially run a company.
And sometimes they don't see that until you get them to express what they do, you know, and building their high impact soundbite to say like this is this is who I am.
This is what I do.
This is how I do it.
And this is how I can effectively help you.
So those things, I think, once we see people come out of the courses, it's like such a change in terms of their demeanor and also the confidence that they carry to be able to set out, to have other goals for themselves, beyond just their current career path.
Oh, I love all of this.
And I think one of the things that's noteworthy about this is just how often people talk about confidence being the issue.
Because again, if you want to learn how to negotiate, just Google negotiation.
If you want to learn how to get to a board, you can Google that.
But that doesn't speak to the internal challenge that prevents us from doing the things that we need to do.
And so I love the fact that with your educational programs, you're talking strategically the how to, but you're not missing that internal piece of it, because if you don't have that, it doesn't matter how much you know.
It's true.
It's very true.
It's true in anything, right?
And especially with negotiation, you're negotiating for yourself, really.
I mean, you're negotiating things, sometimes not in your best effort, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
And we're teaching women not to do that.
Don't negotiate down on yourself when you haven't even asked for something yet.
So you have to make sure that you're going in with the confidence that you know what you can do and what you can deliver.
And then above that, what else do you need?
What do you need from your organization?
What do you need from your future career?
What do you need from whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish?
That's true.
Those tangible things are there, but it's also the soft skills of building it within yourself to be able to say that I can do this.
I can serve on a board if that's the right path for me, or I can apply to the next role if that's the right path for you too.
Agreed.
And something that I want to zoom in on a bit is you said that after they go through the program and once they fully appreciate the value that they can bring, you notice a change in their demeanor.
Can you tell us more about that?
Yeah, it's interesting.
I've taken a number of our workshops just to be able to go through the process, not only for myself, but also just to see the alumni that we have going through the courses.
So every now and then I'll pop into one of our board fundamentals classes or get on board classes and you can see people kind of, and even on Zoom you can see it right.
You know it's hard to read body language all the time on video calls, but because these calls are so interactive, we try and make sure that everyone's playing a part and speaks up or raises their hand, or we call upon them so that they are engaged in the meeting.
But you can see people kind of hunkered over and not wanting to say a lot or not communicate.
Or if they They are communicating, they want to put something in the chat instead of raising their hand or speaking out loud.
Until that first person makes that first move and then people feel more comfortable, right?
And then by the second session, especially with get on board, you can see people really open up, and not only open up but relax and feel really good about the information that they're sharing.
So, now that they've put together, let's say, their high impact soundbite about what they do and how they do it, they now deliver it with more confidence and they're seeking more input on behalf of what they're sharing and they're open to the input, which is very different from the first session, where you know you're not sure if you should share your high impact sound bite.
You're writing it by yourself and alone, even in your breakout session, and because you're called upon, then you'll share it, but you don't really want to give it away because they're not embarrassed, but it's almost like you don't want to talk about yourself in that way, and so Getting them to move from that place to the final step in the second session is just an amazing thing to watch.
This is incredible because again, the psychology of this is fascinating because, even going to the point that you said about, they don't want to share their high impact sound bites and correct me if I'm wrong high impact sound bites kind of akin to an elevator pitch.
Yes.
Yes.
Yep.
Now, after the program, they are not only willing to share it, but also open to input, feedback on it, on how to make it better.
I think that's really interesting because when you are more confident, you've become less defensive.
You're willing to say what you need to say.
And at the same time, when somebody else says something, it doesn't feel as a threat to you.
And so what's really interesting about confidence, when done right, tempered by humility which makes sure it doesn't tip toward arrogance too?
I couldn't have said it better.
I mean, that's exactly it.
You know, I think even in our own careers and you've probably experienced this too where once you become more comfortable doing something, you're more willing to let people, let you know what could be better or how things could change.
And you're right to your point that defense mechanism kind of drops and you're able to take that input, take what you can and apply what you need to, based on what you know as an expert, and do that with some humility and also some grace.
Where you're, You're able to go.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate that information.
That's so helpful.
I'm going to work that into the next whatever it is.
But I think that becomes easier for people to do, which is such a great way to underscore it.
When you think about the fact that we have to be our own best advocates in these situations.
When it comes to our career, we can't always expect other people to have our back.
It's our responsibility to do well for ourselves.
And in order to do that, we have to advocate, have these difficult conversations and negotiate.
But it becomes incredibly difficult for you to do that if you are unwilling to speak about the value that you add.
And so that's why the confidence piece is really important.
And I think one of the things that was really interesting about Part of the process to getting them to understand their value is getting them to express themselves, what they do and the value that it brings to the company.
Can you go deeper into that so we the listeners can get a better understanding of that part of the process?
Yeah, i mean it's really defining your career and, like you said before in an elevator pitch, but more so it's about making sure you understand the pieces and parts that you need to pull out right so effectively when you're talking about yourself and i do this a lot because you tend to fall or lean this way but you say you know your title, your company, what your company does, but then you kind of end your introduction like i did when i introduced myself here on the podcast.
But if I was going to elevator pitch myself, you know I talk about what I'm doing for 5050 Women on Boards, how we've moved the needle and how I've played a role in that and the results.
And so you really come down to like the tangible pieces and parts of the role that you've played, not only in your current company, but even in your past companies and your career as a whole, to say this is how I've done it.
And these are the results that I've driven.
And this is how I can help you. you in your next phase.
And those are really important pieces and parts when we break it down like that.
I think that's what you were asking, but that's the tangible pieces that you then can speak about really confidently and share with others.
Absolutely.
Now, every once in a while, I hear a listener in the back of my head and I have to channel them.
So what would you say to the person who says well Heather, what my goal is?
To just work really hard.
I know as a woman, or a minority, I have to work harder than everybody else twice as hard to get the same recognition.
And I don't feel comfortable talking my way to the top.
I want my work to speak for itself.
That's humility to me.
What would you say to that person?
I would say that that's how I felt for a long time, especially in my career.
And I have a weird work ethic and I'm sure you have the same Kwame, but I'm a workaholic in many ways.
And so a lot of what I've done in my past has been keep my head down and just work really hard and do the things that I need to do to get the job done and go above and beyond, because that's how I'm programmed.
And part of me even taking this role with 5050 was stepping back and saying, well, that's all great.
And that's good that we can work ourselves to the bone and try and get recognition.
But you have to advocate for yourself.
And the reason that you're advocating for yourself is because you need to let people know what you're doing, because people aren't always tuned in to what you're delivering.
And it's not to say that you need to be boastful about it, but you need to have really constructive conversations, not only with your manager or whoever you report to, but anyone outside the organization.
Or if you have those opportunities where you're asked to present or you're asked to share information on behalf of the company, take the opportunity.
It's really important for people to see you in action.
And that's part of the reason why that people are appointed to boards is because other board members have seen other people in action in other places.
And so they want to be able to vouch for people and to validate that this is a great candidate.
And so the same thing could be said for your everyday work life.
While it feels great to be able to do the work, and work hard and put your head down and say I'm going to do this and I'm just going to hope that my work speaks for itself, it doesn't always, especially in today's age where things are moving so fast.
So advocate yourself, not only at your job and with your manager, but outside of it and also even on social media platforms like linkedin.
I mean, we know it right, it works so well to be able to share your personal brand with others, what you truly believe in, your mission and your values, and then what you're doing at your career and what you want to do next.
And making that ask and having those strategic conversations will never hurt you.
If they can't help you, they're going to tell you they can't help you, right?
But if someone can help you or can think about you for future opportunities, they're going to keep you in the back of their mind.
Absolutely.
And this is really insightful too, because one of the things you mentioned was people aren't tuned into what you're doing.
And it so true.
I'll speak from the perspective of a CEO.
Sometimes we're so focused on making sure the job gets done and putting out fires that we don't recognize the parts of our business that are working in silent perfection.
Sometimes the best employers are the ones that you don't think about the most, because you don't have to, because they do so well.
Like, hey, this person needs a bonus.
This person needs an upgrade in their role because we're so busy and caught up in our own things.
And so, at the end of the day, it's really up to us to not only be the professional, but also our own marketing team to tastefully market the work that we're doing, constantly reminding the people in our organization and our network about the value that we bring.
Because if they don't feel like you have value, or if they're not contemplating of your value, then you don't have leverage at the negotiation table, even though you have value to provide.
And I remember one of my clients that I back when I was coaching.
One of my clients said you know, one of the things that annoys me is that there are other people in my organization who keep on winning these awards, like in community service and other things.
And I know objectively I do more than them.
And it's frustrating.
I was like, you know why they're getting the awards, don't you?
He's like, I don't want to post about this.
And I said listen, I think you have to consider your values, because if somebody doesn't feel comfortable sharing, then don't share.
But then if you have aspirations for the boardroom and improving your career and everything, these are things you have to do.
And I had to go through this too.
I felt really uncomfortable sharing.
And then it's in the last five-ish years that I decided to get over it and it's working.
Yeah.
It gets easier too, right?
Once you start.
And I think the advocacy piece for yourself really, like you just said, so great.
It leads the negotiation part.
So if you're continually advocating for yourself in a way that's conducive with who you are and what you want to achieve, Then I think once you come to the table to negotiate something, it's a lot easier to do that right.
It's a lot easier to say, this is what I do and how I do this, what I'm doing all year long.
And these are the things that I think I should be recognized for.
This is the next opportunity I want to seek out.
And that becomes a lot more comfortable.
So it's almost like it's part of the negotiation tactic is to make sure you're advocating for yourself in a way that will help people see you and what you can to kind of get over it.
Exactly.
And I think that's one of the things that people have to recognize is that sometimes we wait until we feel comfortable to do things.
But sometimes the only way to get comfortable is by doing it while you're uncomfortable.
And then eventually it becomes normal to you.
You normalize the experience by pushing yourself to have those types of experiences.
And big mistake people make at the negotiation table is thinking that the negotiation begins at the negotiation table.
You should have been marketing this whole time.
So you're not bringing it to their awareness at the negotiation table.
You're reminding them of your accomplishments that you have been promoting this entire time.
And for that person who is listening, I keep on hearing their voice, Heather.
They're like, okay, Heather, I believe you.
I'm going to try this.
But how do I promote myself and start angling for this negotiation, this promotion, this board position?
How do I do it while still being humble?
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
I think it has to align with your ethos.
So in a way, it depends on what your ultimate goal is.
So if your goal is to, like for me, for example, I'll use myself as an example.
My goal is to make sure that women understand what they have.
That has to do with how I present myself on social media and in my personal life and everywhere.
You know, I just want to make sure that people understand that I'm a champion for you.
I'm going to help you get there in any way, shape or form that I can.
But it's up to you to use those tools to be able to do that.
Right.
But that's my goal.
So I've decided to focus my goal on that.
So then, anything that I post about is related to that in a way that helps other people understand that and gets that message across.
And then I also do it for myself, right?
I also advocate for myself and present myself in a way that I'm proud of the things that I've done and I've achieved.
And I'm able to put that in my about section.
I'm able to put it in my headline.
I'm able to make sure that it comes across in my profile photo.
I'm able to do it when I'm commenting on other people who are posting about things that I'm interested in.
And that just starts to become a natural sort of pace that you develop with yourself when you're trying to market yourself and advocate for yourself.
It can be on LinkedIn, it could be on Instagram, it could be on any social media platform, really.
But you just have to make sure that your personal brand comes across in a way that's constructive across any platform you decide to be on.
Because especially if you're looking for a board, they tend to search on social media sites first.
So you just need to understand how you're presenting yourself, which is interesting because a lot of people don't know that.
They'll search LinkedIn to see who you are, who you're connected with.
How do you present yourself things like that?
So that's why I love LinkedIn as a platform, just because I feel like it creates so much opportunity in that sense.
But you also have to be mindful of what you're sharing and how you're sharing it and how you're approaching conversations, and make sure that your true, authentic self is also resonating within what you're sharing.
But to answer your question fully, I think part of it also takes just some practice.
We offer a course called Personal Brand and Digital Presence for Boards, which is really great, very tactical.
I enjoyed the course so much.
I got a lot out of it myself and just started to get more comfortable in the space of being able to share information that I probably wouldn't have before.
Personal and professional.
Things that I feel like will help people and uplift in their day-to-day careers, because we all go through things right.
We all have a life.
I think we've all realized that if you have a professional life and you have a personal life and they're in two boxes, oftentimes they cross paths.
So you have to be able to share that information, to make sure that people know that you're human and also that they can relate to you and realize that oh, this is happening in their career as well.
I can continue moving forward.
And that's the goal you know really to ensure that you're presenting yourself in a way that you want to present yourself according to your mission and your values, and then move forward slowly in that pace.
I love this.
This is so great.
I
Alas, I'm late.
So I apologize.
Okay.
But this is great.
And like I said, the work that you and your team do, it's exceptional.
And I'm really glad that you all exist and you're doing this work.
And you came on the podcast to share your knowledge with my audience.
So thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And, before you go, remind the listeners again about your company, some of your big initiatives and how to get in touch with you.
Sure.
So we're 50-50 Women on Boards, a nonprofit organization.
We launched 50 Women to Watch for boards this year.
So look for that published list.
And then we also have educational programs, so that if you are looking for ways to advocate for yourself or to figure out how to create your own personal brand, you can find that on our website, and it's www5050wobcom.
Awesome.
And everybody, we will put links in the description of this episode.
Heather, thank you again.
This was exceptional.
Thank you so much for having me.
Appreciate it.
That was the first part of today's masterclass.
Up.
Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.
Let's keep it rolling.
Heather, thanks for joining us today.
Hi, Palme.
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, it is my pleasure.
And thank you for having such a great conversation with me before that we can make an organic intro.
Yeah.
How would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure.
My name is Heather Spilsbury.
I am the Chief Operating Officer at 5050 Women on Boards.
5050 Women on Boards is a nonprofit organization that's committed to advancing women to corporate boardrooms.
And we do that through a number of different pillars, but it really resides in four different areas, which is research education, advocacy and collaboration with key stakeholders.
This is great, Heather, and the work that you and your team do every day, it's so important.
So I just want to start off with appreciation there.
And I also want to make sure I give you a shout out with your 50 Women to Watch program that's coming out too.
Can you tell us more about that?
What we wanted to do was curate a list of 50 women who are currently not serving on a public company board but are ready and prepared to for corporations that often come to us and tell us they can't find the right candidates or they're not sure how to diversify their boards or they're not able to find someone with that exact expertise.
So this list that's being published is extraordinary, because you can search for candidates by primary expertise, race and ethnicity, and also other categories that align with what a board might be looking for.
So we are extremely happy to be able to launch something like this so that we can help corporations get there, because we want to move away from the excuse that there aren't qualified candidates out there or that there's not someone in reach who you can tap into.
And the great thing about the list too, is that it's been confirmed by a selection committee of extraordinary non-gov chairs and chairs of organizations like Honest, Bright House Financial, Victoria's Secret.
Two of the selection committee members are also on the stock exchanges of TMX Group and Viva in Mexico.
So it's been great to see this group come together and really agree on who these finalists are.
So, in a sense, the candidates have already been vetted for these corporations, or even recruiters who are employed by the corporations to search for candidates.
They've already gone through that rigorous process through our campaign.
And so then they can tap into these women who they know can apply for the position, or then offer up someone else in their network to apply for it.
So we think it's a great initiative to be able to fill that gap where corporations are lacking some of that networking opportunity.
I love it.
This is great.
And it ties in really perfectly with what we're going to talk about today, which is using negotiation as a tool to elevate your career and negotiate your way to the top.
And so, based on your experience working with women and helping them to get into these higher positions within companies, can you outline what you would consider the biggest challenge that they face?
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It's interesting because I think some of the challenges are based on internal challenges that most women face, which is having the confidence to figure out what the next step is, or having the confidence to say this is something that I could actually do or actually provide value.
You know, there's a lot of research out there and a lot of examples about how women really won't even apply for a job unless they have all of the qualifications where they're.
When you look at men who are applying, it's sometimes different in terms of how they approach what their next move is.
So what we do in our educational programs is you really teach women not only how to get on board and how to network effectively and how to build your board profile.
Those are the key elements, right?
Those are the tactical things that come out of it.
But really what we do too is make sure that they understand the value that they add to corporations.
And that value is so tangible.
These are really experienced senior leaders who are coming up in the pipeline, who have what it takes to not only serve on a board but potentially run a company.
And sometimes they don't see that until you get them to express what they do, you know, and building their high impact soundbite to say like this is who I am, this is who i am, this is what i do, this is how i do it and this is how i can effectively help you.
So those things, i think once we see people come out of the courses, it's like such a change in terms of their demeanor and also the confidence that they carry to be able to set out to have other goals for themselves beyond just their current career path.
Oh, I love all of this.
And I think one of the things that's noteworthy about this is just how often people talk about confidence being the issue.
Because again, if you want to learn how to negotiate, just Google negotiation.
If you want to learn how to get to a board, you can Google that.
But that doesn't speak to the internal challenge that prevents us from doing the things that we need to do.
And so I love the fact that, with your educational programs, you're talking strategically the how-to, but you're not missing that internal piece of it.
Because if you don't have that, it doesn't matter how much you know.
It's true.
It's very true.
It's true in anything, right?
And especially with negotiation, you're negotiating for yourself, really.
I mean, you're negotiating things, sometimes not in your best effort, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
And we're teaching women not to do that.
Don't negotiate down on yourself when you haven't even asked for something yet.
So you have to make sure that you're going in with confidence, that you know what you can do and what you can deliver.
And then above that, what else do you need?
What do you need from your organization?
What do you need from your future career?
What do you need from whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish?
That's true.
Those tangible things are there, but it's also the soft skills of building it within yourself to be able to say that I can do this.
I can serve on a board if that's the right path for me, or I can apply to the next role if that's the right path for you too.
Agreed.
And something that I want to zoom in on a bit is you said that after they go through the program and once they fully appreciate the value that they can bring, you notice a change in their demeanor.
Can you tell us more about that?
Yeah, it's interesting.
I've taken a number of our workshops just to be able to go through the process, not only for myself, but also just to see the alumni that we have going through the courses.
So every now and then I'll pop into one of our board fundamentals classes or get on board classes and you can see people kind of and even on zoom you can see it right, you know, and it's hard to read body language all the time on on video calls.
But because these calls are so interactive we try and make sure that everyone's playing a part and has speaks up or raises their hand or we call upon them so that they are engaged in the meeting.
But You can see people kind of hunkered over and not wanting to say a lot or not communicate.
Or if they are communicating, they want to put something in the chat instead of raising their hand or speaking out loud.
Until that first person makes that first move and then people feel more comfortable.
Right.
And then by the second session, especially with get on board, you can see people really open up and not only open up but relaxed and feel really good about the information that they're sharing.
So, now that they've put together, let's say, their high impact soundbite about what they do and how they do it, they now deliver it with more confidence and they're seeking more input on behalf of what they're sharing and they're open to the input, which is very different from the first session, where you know you're not sure if you should share your high impact sound bite.
You're writing it by yourself and alone, even in your breakout session, and because you're called upon, then you'll share it, but you don't really want to give it away because they're not embarrassed, but it's almost like you don't want to talk about yourself in that way, and so Getting them to move from that place to the final step in the second session is just an amazing thing to watch.
This is incredible because, again, the psychology of this is fascinating.
They don't want to share their high impact soundbites and correct me if I'm wrong.
High impact soundbites kind of akin to an elevator pitch.
Yes.
Yep.
And so now, after the program, they are not only willing to share it, but also open to input, feedback on it, on how to make it better.
And I think that's really interesting, because when you are more confident, you You've become less defensive.
You're willing to say what you need to say.
And at the same time, when somebody else says something, it doesn't feel as a threat to you.
And so what's really interesting about confidence, when done right, tempered by humility which makes sure it doesn't tip toward arrogance too?
I couldn't have said it better.
I mean, that's exactly it.
You know, I think even in our own careers and you've probably experienced this too where once you become more comfortable doing something, you're more willing to let people, let you know what could be better or how things could change.
And you're right to your point that defense mechanism kind of drops and you're able to take that input, take what you can and Apply what you need to, based on what you know as an expert, and do that with some humility and also some grace where you're able to go.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate that information.
That's so helpful.
I'm going to work that into the next whatever it is.
But I think that becomes easier for people to do, which is such a great way to underscore it.
When you think about the fact that we have to be our own best advocates in these situations.
When it comes to our career, we can't always expect other people to have our back.
It's our responsibility to do well for ourselves.
And in order to do that, we have to advocate, have these difficult conversations and negotiate.
But it becomes incredibly difficult for you to do that if you are unwilling to speak about the value that you add.
And so that's why the confidence piece is really important.
And I think one of the things that was really interesting about Part of the process to getting them to understand their value is getting them to express themselves, what they do and the value that it brings to the company.
Can you go deeper into that so we, the listeners, can get a better understanding of that part of the process?
Yeah, I mean, it's really defining your career.
And, like you said before in an elevator pitch, but more so, it's about making sure you understand the pieces and parts that you need to pull out.
Right.
So effectively when you're talking about yourself and I do this a lot because you tend to fall or lean this way but you say you know your title, your company, what your company does.
But then you kind of end your introduction like I did when I introduced myself here on the podcast.
But if I was going to elevator pitch myself, you know I talk about what I'm doing for 5050 Women on Boards, how we've moved the needle and how I've played a role in that and the results.
And so you really come down to like the tangible pieces and parts of the role that you've played, not only in your current company, but even in your past companies and your career as a whole, to say this is how I've done it.
And these are the results that I've driven.
And this is how I can help you. you in your next phase.
Those are really important pieces and parts when we break it down like that.
I think that's what you were asking, but that's the tangible pieces that you then can speak about really confidently and share with others.
Absolutely.
Now, every once in a while I hear a listener in the back of my head and I have to channel them.
So what would you say to the person who says well Heather, what my goal is?
To just work really hard.
I know as a woman, or a minority, I have to work harder than everybody else twice as hard to get the same recognition.
And I don't feel comfortable talking my way to the top.
I want my work to speak for itself.
That's humility to me.
What would you say to that person?
I would say that that's how I felt for a long time, especially in my career.
And I have a weird work ethic and I'm sure you have the same Kwame, but I'm a workaholic in many ways.
And so a lot of what I've done in my past has been keep my head down and just work really hard and do the things that I need to do to get the job done and go above and beyond, because that's how I'm programmed.
And part of me even taking this role with 5050 was stepping back and saying, well, that's all great.
And that's good that we can work ourselves to the bone and try and get recognition.
But you have to advocate for yourself.
And the reason that you're advocating for yourself is because you need to let people know what you're doing, because people aren't always tuned in to what you're delivering.
And it's not to say that you need to be boastful about it, but you need to have really constructive conversations, not only with your manager or whoever you report to, but anyone outside the organization.
Or if you have those opportunities where you're asked to present or you're asked to share information on behalf of the company, take the opportunity.
It's really important for people to see you in action.
And that's part of the reason why that people are appointed to boards is because other board members have seen other people in action in other places.
And so they want to be able to vouch for people and to validate that this is a great candidate.
And so the same thing could be said for your everyday work life.
While it feels great to be able to do the work, and work hard, and put your head down and say I'm going to do this and I'm just going to hope that my work speaks for itself,
It doesn't always, especially in today's age where things are moving so fast.
So advocate yourself, not only at your job and with your manager, but outside of it.
And also even on social media platforms like LinkedIn.
I mean, we know it, right?
It works so well to be able to share your personal brand with others, what you truly believe in, your mission and your values, and then what you're doing at your career and what you want to do next.
And making that ask and having those strategic conversations is will never hurt you.
If they can't help you, they're going to tell you they can't help you, right?
But if someone can help you or can think about you for future opportunities, they're going to keep you in the back of their mind.
Absolutely.
And this is really insightful too, because one of the things you mentioned was people aren't tuned into what you're doing.
And it's so true.
I'll speak from the perspective of a CEO.
Sometimes we're so focused on making sure the job gets done and putting out fires that we don't recognize the parts of our business that are working in silent perfection.
Sometimes the best employers are the ones that you don't think about the most, because you don't have to, because they do so well.
And so it's easy to forget like, hey, this person needs a bonus.
This person needs a upgrade in their role because we're so busy and caught up in our own things.
And so, at the end of the day, it's really up to us to not only be the professional, but also our own marketing team to tastefully market the work that we're doing, constantly reminding the people in our organization and our network about the value that we bring.
Because if they don't feel like you have value, or if they're not conscious of your value, then you don't have leverage at the negotiation table, even though you have value to provide.
And I remember one of my clients that I back when I was coaching.
One of my clients said you know, one of the things that annoys me is that there are other people in my organization who keep on winning these awards, like community service and other things.
And I know objectively I do more than them.
And it's frustrating.
I was like, you know why they're getting the awards, don't you?
He's like, I don't want to post about this.
And I said listen, I think you have to consider your values, because if somebody doesn't feel comfortable sharing, then don't share.
But then if you have aspirations for the boardroom and improving your career and everything, these are things you have to do.
And I had to go through this too.
I felt really uncomfortable sharing.
And then it's in the last five-ish years that I decided to get over it and it's not working.
Yeah.
It gets easier too, right?
Once you start.
And I think the advocacy piece for yourself really, like you just said, so great.
It leads to the negotiation part.
So if you're continually advocating for yourself in a way that's conducive with who you are and what you want to achieve, Then I think once you come to the table to negotiate something, it's a lot easier to do that right.
It's a lot easier to say, this is what I do and how I do this, what I'm doing all year long.
And these are the things that I think I should be recognized for.
This is the next opportunity I want to seek out.
And that becomes a lot more comfortable.
So it's almost like it's part of the negotiation tactics is to make sure you're advocating for yourself in a way that will help people see you and what you're contributing.
Again, with humility, but with some gumption too, because you just have to kind of get over it.
Exactly.
And I think that's one of the things that people have to recognize is that sometimes we wait until we feel comfortable to do things.
But sometimes the only way to get comfortable is by doing it while you're uncomfortable.
And then eventually it becomes normal to you.
You normalize the experience by pushing yourself to have those types of experiences.
And big mistake people make at the negotiation table is thinking that the negotiation begins at the negotiation table.
You should have been marketing this whole time.
So you're not bringing it to their awareness at the negotiation table.
You're reminding them of your accomplishments that you have been promoting this entire time.
And for that person who is listening, I keep on hearing their voice, Heather.
They're like, OK, Heather, I believe you.
I'm going to try this.
But how do I promote myself and start angling for this negotiation, this promotion, this board position?
How do I do it while still being humble?
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
I think it has to align with your ethos.
So in a way, it depends on what your ultimate goal is.
So if your goal is to, like for me, for example, I'll use myself. example.
My goal is to make sure that women understand what they have to offer.
And so a lot of that has to do with how I present myself on social media and in my personal life and everywhere.
You know, I'm just want to make sure that people understand that I'm a champion for you.
I'm but it's up to you to use those tools to be able to do that, right?
But that's my goal.
So I've decided to focus my goal on that.
So then, anything that I post about is related to that in a way that helps other people understand that and gets that message across.
And then I also do it for myself, right?
I also advocate for myself and present myself in a way that I'm proud of the things that I've done and I've achieved.
And I'm able to put that in my about section.
I'm able to put it in my headline.
I'm able to make sure that it comes across in my profile photo.
I'm able to do it when I'm commenting on other people who are posting about things that I'm interested in.
And that just starts to become a natural sort of pace that you develop with yourself when you're trying to market yourself and advocate for yourself.
It can be on LinkedIn.
It could be on Instagram.
It could be on any social media platform, really.
But you just have to make sure that your personal brand comes across in a way that's constructive across any platform you decide to beyond because, especially if you're looking for a board, they tend to search on social media sites first.
So you just need to understand how you're presenting yourself, which is interesting because a lot of people don't know that.
They'll search linkedin to see who you are, who you're connected with, you know how do you present yourself, things like that.
So that's why i love linkedin as a platform, just because i feel like it creates so much opportunity in that sense.
But you also have to be mindful of what you're sharing and how you're sharing it and how you're approaching conversations, and make sure that your true, authentic self is also resonating within what you're sharing.
But to answer your question fully, I think part of it also takes just some practice.
You know, we offer a course called Personal Brand and Digital Presence for Boards, which is really great, very tactical course.
I enjoyed the course so much I got a lot out of it myself and just started to get more comfortable in the space of being able to share information that I probably wouldn't have before, personal and professional.
Things that I feel like will help people and uplift in their day-to-day careers, because we all go through things right.
We all have a life.
I think we've all realized that if you have a professional life and you have a personal life and they're in two boxes, oftentimes they cross paths.
So you have to be able to share that information, to make sure that people know that you're human and also that they can relate to you and realize that oh, this is happening in their career as well.
I can continue moving forward.
And that's the goal you know really to ensure that you're presenting yourself in a way that you want to present yourself according to your mission and your values, and then move forward slowly in that pace.
I love this.
This is so great.
I
Alas, I'm late.
So I apologize.
Okay.
But this is great.
And like I said, the work that you and your team do, it's exceptional.
And I'm really glad that you all exist and you're doing this work.
And you came on the podcast to share your knowledge with my audience.
So thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And, before you go, remind the listeners again about your company, some of your big initiatives and how to get in touch with you.
Sure.
So we're 50-50 Women on Boards, a nonprofit organization.
We launched 50 Women to Watch for Boards.
So look for that published list.
And then we also have educational programs, so that if you are looking for ways to advocate for yourself or to figure out how to create your own personal brand, you can find that on our website, and it's www5050wobcom.
Awesome.
And everybody, we will put links in the description of this episode.
Heather, thank you again.
This was exceptional.
Thank you so much for having me.
Appreciate it.
You've just heard one powerful perspective, and now we're moving on to the next.
A fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge so you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in.
Jasani, thanks for joining us today, my man.
Hey, thanks for inviting me.
I'm so excited.
I feel like I'm talking to a celebrity, man.
It's great to have you here.
And so how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So my name is Jasani Courtney.
I'm living right here in old Houston, Texas.
I work as the vice president of human resources for the American Bureau of Shipping.
I've been in the HR field for about 21 years.
I got my start in the military.
I got my commission as an officer at Georgia Military College and eventually got into adjunct general, which is a fancy word for personnel office in the army.
After being in the army for a little while, I switched over to the civilian sector, had a number of roles of increasing responsibility till I got to where I'm at.
I'm married.
I have one awesome daughter.
I'm a big hashtag girl dad.
But but again, I think for that, thanks for the opportunity and having a conversation with you.
I've been looking forward to it.
Yes, this is great.
Yeah, it's and it's funny.
You are the father that my wife wanted me to be in terms of having a girl.
And I told her I'm trying my best.
No, you know, I'm only part of the I'm only half the equation, right?
It's just like I'm trying when we have two boys and I'm done.
We're done.
No, man, I get it.
I get it.
This is funny.
No, this is great, man.
And I'm excited to have this conversation with you about negotiating your best life when it comes to your career.
And as we know, when it comes to navigating your career, there's so many opportunities to negotiate.
And I know with your experience in HR in the civilian space and working in the army too, you have a lot of insight onto where negotiation fits in.
And so I know some of the things that we're going to talk about are how we can negotiate terms of an offer, negotiating for a promotion, and then the things that we need to have in mind as leaders as we grow in companies.
But I just want to start off talking about in general What is the value of negotiation when you think about negotiation as a skill for elevating your career.
Yeah, I mean, the art of negotiation is critical, right?
It doesn't matter what stage of your career you're in.
You could be a recent grad or you could be a tenured employee.
You should always negotiate so that you can live your best life, because the truth of the matter is, as long as you work for somebody else, you know you're under someone else's terms.
So at the end of the day, you always tell people like employees are kind of like mercenaries, right?
You're offering your skills out for the best price.
And so you always want to make sure that you can negotiate for the best deal that you can.
There's nothing wrong with it.
I know there's some old school folks that try to make folks feel guilty about negotiating the best terms and conditions for their offer.
But to be honest with you, there's a lot of reasons why you should always negotiate.
And, you know, and hopefully throughout this conversation, I can kind of dissuade some of the fears.
That sometimes keeps us from having those conversations that will allow us to get the best compensation or the best terms so we can have a good work-life balance while at the same time satisfying your career goals and aspirations.
Yeah, well said.
And when you think about the fears that hold people back, what comes to mind for you?
When I talk to a lot of people, Kwame, the first thing is, let's just say it's a job offer.
The first thing they're worried about when they talk about negotiating they worry about whether they're going to take back the offer.
That's the first thing.
Like, oh, if I negotiate, they're going to pull the offer back.
And that couldn't be further from the truth.
It costs a company a lot of money to recruit higher trained employees just to go through the interviewing process.
Remember, you know, that position is open.
So that means somewhere in that office some poor employee is working double time to cover that time until they get the position filled.
So they're paying costs by overtime.
Then also they have the interview.
You know, you have a manager or directors or whomever.
You know, when they interview, that's those are man hours.
Those are those are people hours that they could be, you know, opportunity costs is lost.
They could be doing other things for the company, but they're interviewing.
And so by the time they get to the offer stage, to be honest, it's not in their best interest to pull an offer just because you negotiate.
Now what happens after that, how you handle it, the tone in which you do the negotiations, the mindset and the words you choose to use in that negotiation, it can either, you know, make things work out in an optimal situation or stop.
You know.
Not so much um, but never be worried about them pulling an offer back because from a time and cost perspective, that just makes zero sense for them, just to pull back an offer of a qualified candidate.
Just because they are, they dare to negotiate, and and so if i'm breaking down what you said in a simpler, a simple type of way, speaking as a somebody who is a leader in hr in your company um, it's almost like you're saying why in the world would i pull that back?
Like what?
Why would I do?
That is essentially what I'm hearing, because you're saying I put a lot of work into this.
Why would I just undercut my work for somebody who's advocating for my, for themselves, and demonstrating a skill that I would want them to have in this role?
Right.
And so I think this is really important for us to see it from your perspective as the person who's giving off out orders like it is.
I would I have no desire to do such a thing because it hurts me and creates more work for me.
Right.
It absolutely does.
I mean, look.
So, you know, in my office where I work right now, we have the recruiters.
They literally sit outside my office.
And those folks work really hard to find the best candidate for the role.
And by the time they've gone through so many resumes and CVs and they go through the interview process, they found somebody who has the skills they want.
Again, it just makes zero sense to start over just because they dare to negotiate now.
Let's be fair.
Not.
You know not every job has the same level of negotiating.
You know.
You know variances as others.
Right.
You know if you're a school teacher, if you're a public servant, you know those salaries are posted online.
It's pretty straightforward.
It's based on tenure and things like that.
So negotiating really may not help in that regard.
But you know, you know if you're you're going into a managerial role or a director role or specialized technical role, Absolutely.
Always negotiate.
But again, what I mentioned earlier, you got to be careful because once negotiations begin, you got to, you got to read the room.
You got to read the tone of the emails and the response and then go from there.
You know.
Like first thing I always tell people is you know when they ask you the question about you know what salary you're looking for.
One thing that never does us a disservice I mean never does us a good service is oh, it's negotiable.
No, it's not.
It's not freaking negotiable.
When you were interviewing for a job, you told your family and friends like no, my next job, I need to make 50000, at least 50000 or 60000.
But for some reason that HR person calls you, they say you know Kwame, you know, so you know, we're interested in this role.
And, you know, so, you know, what kind of salary are you looking for?
Oh, it's negotiable.
It's about the overall opportunity.
Bull crap.
There is a certain level of compensation you're looking for.
Yeah, it's about other aspects.
But at the end of the day, be honest with yourself.
Make sure that you get a salary that makes you feel good about the choice you make, because a company will never love you more than when you first walk through the front door.
I love that.
So let's go deeper into that specific question, because there are different schools of thought on this.
So I'd love to hear your thoughts.
So an HR person is having a conversation with you and they say, so how much would you like to make?
Some people are afraid of giving that number because they say oh, now I'm pigeonholing myself into a number.
I feel like I'm losing negotiation leverage.
And so when people say that, what are your thoughts on that?
Well, if you understand the value of the role that you're applying for from the beginning, you won't run into that.
And there's a lot of online resources that helps the individual.
You know, there's Glassdoor, there's Indeed, there's salary.com.
And I say salarycom.
But you know, every time an HR professional hears oh, I looked at my salarycom, we always roll our eyes because in my opinion it's very commercialized.
And, you know, they know that people are going out there looking for salary.
They tend to inflate it just a bit.
But, with that being said, you know understand if you're in the Houston metro market, where I am, and you're trying to be a marketing manager.
Go into that, understanding what the marketing manager makes in that area using some of these online resources, so you're not doing yourself a disservice and low-balling yourself.
Because if they're willing to pay, if they have it in their budget for 100000 a year, and you come in there saying oh, I'll take 80, they're going to jump at 80.
And you know I always tell people, like with an HR person that's done, like they don't have to go check with anybody and you don't have to go talk to the hiring manager.
That means you lowballed yourself.
Yeah.
But yeah, just but you start off to answer your question.
You start off, you know, doing some homework, applying when you apply for the job, understanding what that job is worth in your, in your location, in your market or wherever you're looking to to work.
Because where you're in Ohio versus Houston versus L.A., that market could be completely different.
So if you go in there armed with that bit of information, you at least have a starting point.
And I guess the last thing I'll say to that question is just make sure that if they say well, that's a little bit outside of our range, it's okay sometimes to walk away because if you've done the research, maybe that company is so small that they simply can't afford it.
There's a lot of reasons why that might happen, but go in their arms with that data, with that information, have a data-driven conversation.
And the last thing I'll say is Remember that when you go into a negotiation, it's a business transaction.
If they start talking to you about salary, the dating is over with.
You've already booed and courted each other.
Now we're just trying to put a ring on it.
And we're just trying to have a business conversation.
So take the emotion out of it, give the data, and then let the questions come where they may.
Yeah, and I think that's a really important point to make, that this is a business deal.
That's really what it comes down to.
This is a business deal.
It's value for value.
You have value that you're bringing to the table.
They are going to compensate you for that value as well.
It's kind of like what you said at the beginning.
It's mercenary conversation.
I am so excited about that.
I'm going to sell my talents to the highest bidder.
I'm going to take my talents to South Beach.
That's what I'm going to do.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's the thing.
And for me as an employer, when I think about when my team negotiates with me, I could be awkward about it and say oh, that makes me uncomfortable.
But what I realize is that it's a trade on value.
If you're asking for more money, then that means you have some ideas to bring more value.
Right.
That's a good thing.
And so if you think about it in that collaborative way, it takes the stigma out of negotiation for you, because you don't feel greedy or pushy or egotistical or anything like that.
You say, OK, no, I am helping them and they are helping me.
It's a quid pro quo in that way.
Absolutely.
You know, and, you know, sometimes, you know, look, I recognize that.
Being in HR, it's nothing for me to negotiate.
I've been negotiating since somebody told me I need to negotiate.
But at the end of the day, role play with somebody.
Ask somebody to role play because some people are a little more timid.
They're conflict avoidance.
They don't want to rock the boat.
But remember, you're going to be your own best career manager.
Don't put that power of your career and your compensation in the hands of someone else who has no emotional vested interest in your success whatsoever.
Their job is to fill a position and move on to the next role.
And once you say yes, there is no going back.
And any further compensation that you're going to make at that company is based on that number that you figure out at the beginning.
So annual increases promotions, you know, if you slack off in the beginning, it's really hard to make that up while you're at that same company.
I think that's important to remember because every ceiling is a new floor.
I negotiate to this level.
This is great because that's where the next negotiation is going to begin.
When you think about it in terms of compound interest.
The position that you put yourself in in this negotiation is going to dictate the position that you're in for your subsequent negotiations too.
You're always going to be leading from this position.
One of the things that holds people back when it comes to negotiation.
I'll say negotiation for compensation is because when they think about it in terms of salary negotiation, they think about it in just that one dimension salary.
One of the things that you wanted to talk about was negotiating the various terms.
And so I think it would be great to have a conversation about just how creative people can get with their compensation package in order to create more value for themselves.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's really important to think about the overall package, not just the salary.
The salary is really important.
Don't get me wrong.
It's how we provide for our families.
It's how we provide safer for our future retirement.
It's critical.
But it's not that it's not the end all be all.
It also depends on where you are in your career.
So you look at me, I'm in my mid 40s.
The gray hairs kind of show it.
And and, you know, when I if I was to take another opportunity, salary is important.
But at this stage, it's about seeing my little girl grow up.
It's about spending time with my wife.
So work-life balance is really important.
So how much vacation am I going to get?
Also, as I get older, health care becomes a bigger issue.
So what are the costs of that?
If I currently have a job and I'm going to another job, is there an increase in premiums?
And what does the coverage look like?
Because you can go into a job making an extra fifteen thousand dollars a year.
But if the new health care sucks, you're going to spend that extra money on medications and doctor's visits.
And so you have to take the overall picture into account.
Where are you in your career?
Where's your value proposition in terms of what is it you value?
Is it compensation?
Is it title?
Is it time off?
Is it is it variable compensation if there's a bonus attributed to it?
And you have to look at the entire number and what each one of those components means to you.
And what I always tell the people who have this question, like, well, how do I know?
Well, there's four or five basic components of an offer.
It's the salary.
It's the time off.
It's the benefits.
And it's the retirement.
And sometimes bonus.
Bonus is kind of, you know, depending on the role.
And what you do is you kind of rate those and you don't.
You don't get a chance to, you don't get to double up.
You know, one is one and one is five.
Right.
So you have to rank them between one and five.
And there's your answer.
Right.
So if you rank, you know, all of them are important.
But you said, hey, I'm young retirement.
You know, although I tell anybody who slacks off for retirement not to do that.
But if you say the 401k match is not as important as getting a great upfront salary and having some time off?
Then that's how you rank it.
And that's the passion you attack each one of those variables in an offer.
But you've got to take a look at the holistic picture and not just jump at the fact that oh, they're paying an extra 5000.
The other thing I always tell people, when they say I'm going to leave my current company to another company, is to do the math in terms of the actual delta, the actual difference.
So if I'm currently making 35000 a year and a new company is offering me 45000 a year, that is a nice, significant pay increase.
But remember that you have to factor in risk.
Sometimes it's the devil you know versus the devil you don't know.
And so you say, okay, an extra $10,000 a year.
You divide that by 26 pay periods if you're in the United States.
Subtract about 25% for taxes.
And you realize really, on a month-to-month basis you're only making a few hundred extra dollars a month.
Is that worth jumping ship to a company that you have no idea what you're walking into?
You know what they've shown you during an interview process, but you never really know.
And is it really worth that?
So again, I could talk all day about this, but there's a lot of things to take into account as you negotiate that.
But remember those five areas that I mentioned, rate them and then attack them and be passionate about them based on that value, because you will not.
It's very rare they'll give you everything you want on all five.
And some of those things are fixed.
So yeah, I would start thinking about that and just figuring out which one of those is most important, and figuring that out.
But go into the conversation with data, especially when it comes to the salary, because an HR person doesn't want to hear about.
Well, I heard a person got this.
They want to know.
Well, I know, in the history of the metro market, this job.
The median of this job is 100000 a year.
OK, now they're listening.
And if they think you're the best candidate, now you have some legitimacy to continue that negotiation.
Oh, this is great.
So many good things in there.
So so let's start off with this.
So we have the importance of preparation to doing your homework.
And I know the listeners of the podcast are saying, oh, no, I know where Kwame is going.
That's right.
I'm going to tell people to download those guides.
So we have a salary negotiation guide.
So if you go to American Negotiation Institute dot com slash guide, you can get access to all of our free guides.
So you can come in and be prepared just like you said.
So that's one thing.
The other thing is I love the simplification of the approach.
Just those five elements and ranking them for yourself.
And I think that's really important.
And I think it's important for us to have that internal negotiation and be very honest with ourselves about what it is that we care about and why.
Because you might rank those things and realize that the way that you rank things are very different from the way that other people rank their things.
Are we just basing it of social comparison, we just want that ego to have that bigger dollar amount, or do we care more about having that balance with our family at this point and being okay with that and negotiating authentically, You know?
I think that's really important.
Then the last thing is, after you do that research, actually speaking the language of the person that you're talking to.
Right.
And so in this we talk about the concept of code switching.
We think about it racially or culturally.
Right.
And we alter the way that we speak in order to be understood, in order to kind of align with the person.
So the way that you talk to your daughter is different for the way you talk to your, your wife, and so on and so forth.
Right.
So I think it was funny.
I had one of my employees in the car with me as i was taking my parents home and my family is from the caribbean and um, he was shocked to see how spicy the conversation was.
Like, this is not the empathetic communication that i learned from the american negotiation.
I was like listen, my immigrant is showing right now okay, and this is how we talk and we're fine.
Right, You have to speak the language of the person that you're communicating with.
And if you're talking to an HR professional who does hundreds of these negotiations every time, talking about my buddy over here who said hypothetically that they make this much is not going to be persuasive.
You want to come with your research so they can actually respect the way that you're talking to them.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And just remember.
You know, just like with any negotiation, I can't remember one of your podcasts I listened to before you talked about this.
Negotiation is kind of a dance, right?
It's a dance.
It's an ebb and flow.
And you don't have to be an expert, you know, just because I say there's an art to it.
The thing about it is is that you gear yourself towards your audience.
You know, come there with data, talk like.
You know what you're talking about, do your best to speak with confidence.
And, you know, and you'll be surprised where that actually gets you.
But again, you know the thing, I just really you know, I really want to stress the listeners if you take only one thing away from this discussion is by the time they call you with the offer.
It's yours to lose.
It's yours.
You've won.
You're done interviewing.
It's your job.
Now you're just negotiating and they're not going to have chances, or they're not going to pull an offer away just because you want a little extra compensation or you want a little extra vacation time.
Whatever the case is.
Usually the worst thing they can say is unfortunately we have a policy that dictates you know, you got to be here so long for so much vacation, or our bonus structure is pretty fixed, based on the title, the job title, and that's fine.
So then at that point you have a decision to make uh, but at the end of the day, you know, you just have, but you just, you just go into that discussion armed with the confidence that you know what it is you want.
And you made such a good point, kwame.
You know, far too often we we judge our needs uh, the terms of the negotiation, based off of social.
You know acceptance, and you know you want to be able to brag to people oh, i broke six figures.
I know a lot of people who make six figures, who are freaking miserable because they're working 40 50 60 70, 80 hours.
They don't see their kids, their marriages on the rocks.
They have an estranged relationship with their children.
And they're making good money, right?
And their wife and kids are having fun spending it.
But it's not bringing that fulfillment of life.
I remember my dad, man, bless his heart.
One of the biggest pieces of advice he told me was, Your job is supposed to support your life.
Your life is not meant to support your job.
And that's one of the things I've always honed in with that my dad has taught me.
And so, you know, your job provides for your family.
Your job provides for vacations.
Your job provides for those things that has personal fulfillment.
But you're not.
But at the end of the day, it's no one ever said, I wish I worked more.
No one ever says that.
So just kind of keep that in mind when you try to prioritize that.
It's not about social norms.
It's not about being able to brag that you got six figures.
I know a person right now.
He actually took a job.
This is post-pandemic.
We'll probably talk about that later.
But the rules are just so crazy now when it comes to offers and people wanting to work remotely.
Somebody had a $100,000 a year job.
It was six figures.
That person now makes $15,000 less.
However... remote working, and extra vacation time.
Unlimited PTO, I think it was.
Unlimited PTO.
He told we had drinks the other night.
I'm a big cigar guy, so we met at one of the local cigar bars and had a drink.
And I got to tell you, man, I've known this guy for seven to 10 years.
I've never seen him more relaxed.
I've never seen him like enjoying life.
He showed me pictures of him hanging out in the park with his daughter being able to go to lunch at her school because he has a little flexibility.
And he said, I would have paid $30,000 for that.
So again, it's just all about prioritizing those things and making sure that your job supports your life and not the other way around.
Oh, yeah.
That is so good.
That is so good.
And I think that's a good place to land and set you up for the next time you come on the show.
This would be great, man.
I appreciate this.
This is really helpful.
Oh, it's great.
It's been fun.
This has been great.
And so I want to let the listeners know.
Of course, LinkedIn is a good place to connect with you and everybody.
There's going to be a link in the description.
So make sure you follow Jasani.
He is awesome to follow and check that out.
But anything else you want to shout out before we wrap?
I know.
Number one, Kwame, I want to thank you for this opportunity.
This has been a great discussion.
It's been a blast.
I wish folks at home could hear about our banter beforehand.
I know you and I have so much in common.
But at the end of the day, folks, at the end of the day, it's your career.
Nobody's going to manage your career better than you.
There's resources out there.
You know, don't treat yourself like a second class employee.
Remember, a company will never love you more than when you come through that front door.
And don't be afraid to negotiate.
It's your life and make the most out of it. of it.
And people like Kwame and myself are out there trying and wanting to empower you so you can make the best life and live your best life ever.
So just keep that in mind as you go out there, but it's out there for you folks.
Love it.
Jasani, thank you so much.
Really appreciate it.
