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Hello everybody, welcome back to the show.
Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the very important psychology of our 20s.
I've got a question.
Have you ever had that feeling of meeting someone amazing, feeling like this relationship you know it could really go somewhere, or it's already going somewhere you're happy you're fulfilled, your friends and your family, they love this person and then, out of nowhere this kind of small feeling starts to creep in.
It's this feeling of, is this person really the one?
Is this part of our relationship normal?
Should I be having these doubts?
Is this a sign we shouldn't be together?
It can definitely send you spiraling in confusion and facing all of these annoying questions leaves you doubting whether it is your anxiety or your intuition about this relationship.
And this, my lovely listeners, is something that we call Relationship Anxiety or Relationship OCD.
And for those of us in our 20s, when, you know, we're kind of experiencing our first really long -term important relationships, it can be a real pain, and it can really ruin otherwise perfect and magical situations and magical experiences.
And it can also leave us in a real negative thought spiral.
So today, we are going to break down exactly why this occurs, why we have been taught all these false notions of what a perfect relationship should look like.
And when you should be doubting your doubts, rather than accepting them at face value, we also have the privilege to be joined by an incredible relationship coach Rebecca Orr who specializes in helping people find relationships that feel confident and secure.
She is perfect for this episode.
So welcome, Rebecca.
Thank you so much for having me, I'm so excited.
I'm so excited and you are hearing a little UK accent, everyone.
We had to arrange this from across the oceans.
And oh my gosh, the UK to Australian time zone is a violent change, like there is no time it works.
I have some Australian clients and it's crazy.
She's used to it, then.
But I'm honestly. I am, I'm used to it.
You're used to it. When I heard what you have to say about relationship OCD, I was like, everyone in their 20s needs to hear this advice.
So before we get into that advice, can you quickly introduce yourself to the listeners of the psychology of your 20s?
Yeah, of course. So as said, I'm Rebecca and I'm a relationship coach that specialises in helping people with anxieties and insecurities in their relationship.
So what I do is help people kind of take back control of their brains, create relationships that feel secure and confident and really it's a lot about their relationship with themselves, being able to trust themselves, being able to manage their own minds, kind of challenge those fearful thoughts that their brain is constantly offering to them and yeah, and really just feel back in control.
And the reason I got into doing this was because I spent the majority of my teenage years and my 20s just feeling absolutely terrified in relationships, just so, so scared all of the time and this is why the work I do is so important to me because basically I went through my own kind of journey with this work with seeking out expert help and listening to podcasts and going to therapy and reading all the books and all these things and yeah I finally found kind of a set of tools, a set of concepts, a structure that really helped me to get out of this kind of spiral.
And yeah, that's made me realize that I need to help other people do this.
So it's work that I'm really, really passionate about.
And when I say I can relate to everyone I coach, it's literally like coaching a past version of me in every session.
You know, you are the kind of like the kind of guest that I love having on the show when it's someone who is not only an expert, but has a lived experience with the things we're talking about, not to like hate on anyone who's trying to help people, but I just find that you can only get so deep if you haven't been through it yourself.
Yeah, you can only really understand the extreme anxiety that comes with relationship OCD, if you've experienced it yourself.
We have to talk about this topic, though, because some people may not be familiar with relationship OCD.
Can you give me a brief description of what it is and maybe what it feels like?
Also, something I need to bring up.
It has OCD in the name, of course.
But I think people, if you're thinking about the typical kind of OCD that we might talk about, it is quite different to what I'm assuming most people are imagining.
So I'm sure you will confirm, deny all of those thoughts, or explain them further.
But yes, give us the basics of relationship OCD.
ROCD, Relationship OCD, is where people have obsessive compulsive thinking in their intimate relationships.
So it's going to feel like intrusive thoughts of doubts and anxieties surrounding relationships.
And of course, doubts in any relationship is normal, of course it is.
But people with ROCD find that the level of doubt and anxiety is uncontrollable and it feels really intrusive and it feels really distressing and what that can look like is constantly debating if the relationship is right.
It looks like a lot of ruminating, it looks like a lot of monitoring and checking how they feel so do I feel in love now?
Like oh no I just felt bored, what does that mean?
Am I attracted to them enough?
It's a lot of kind of monitoring how they feel.
There's a lot of comparing so comparing your relationship to other people's relationships, what you see on TV or on films, social media, there can be a lot of kind of trying to control your partner, trying to kind of nitpick, you know, we don't want them to be imperfect, we want them to do everything just right so that we don't have to feel any negative emotion or doubt, if we can make them do it just right then we don't have to feel negative emotion which we will end up spiraling on and thinking that means something terrible, so It can mean that people can be a little bit, not in a malicious
way, but that they kind of want to try and control and micromanage that partner a little bit.
There can be a lot of ruminating about missing out.
Am I missing out on someone better?
Being afraid to commit to someone, just in case it doesn't work out.
And even to go as far as, people might avoid committing to relationships at all because they're so afraid to experience this doubt and anxiety.
So yeah, it can be a really hard thing to experience.
And for me, although I coach a lot of people with ROCD what I really experienced myself was more kind of, I feel like there's two kinds of fears.
There's like, the fear of being left and then there's the fear of like, I'm not in the right relationship and this relationship is going to end, I might leave them.
For me, I was much more afraid people were going to leave me but I think the fears are so closely linked.
And I coach so many people with these intrusive doubts in their relationship and yeah, those were kind of the most common things that we see time and time again.
So I'm sure some of your listeners can totally relate to at least one or two of those things.
Oh yeah, and you know what?
Especially in our 20s when we're like, I just want to have this great big love, and I'm so young and this is the time when I'm meant to be meeting people and dating and exploring.
If I'm going to sink my time into this relationship, it better be the right person and I better be 100 % sure.
And I'm gonna say this, I'm in such an amazing relationship, I'm not 100 % sure.
I think I'm 99 .9 % there.
But you are always going to have doubts.
And I actually think that's important because it causes you to continue to examine your relationship and to continue to consciously say, I do want to be here.
You know what I mean?
I think if you never thought about your relationship at all, it becomes this passive thing.
but we want to find the balance.
I'm also assuming, from what you've described, that a lot of people do find that they end up self -sabotaging relationships, that their relationship patterns may be quite self -destructive, that they have a lot of regret around leaving past relationships, missing that person, being unable to move on.
Do you find that some of your clients will come to and say, there was this relationship I had and in hindsight, it was perfect.
And I can't get them back, what am I going to do now?
Like, is that something that happens?
Yeah, I have coached people that have been in that situation where as we start to unpack their patterns, they realize, oh, wait, it wasn't them that it wasn't the relationship, that was the problem.
It was my brain. And that can be a moment where people start to feel loads of regret and kind of almost shame around that.
But I think it kind of plays into a little bit of what the kind of underlying thinking ever is, which there can almost be this scarcity around it.
Like, there's this one right person for me.
And I know we're going to come on to talking about the one the idea of the one as well.
But we almost have this idea that this one person for me, and they're predetermined, they're like a needle in the haystack that I need to go find.
And I've missed them, but they're gone." And I think a big part of snapping out of this ROCD kind of mentality is there isn't one right person.
There are just billions of imperfect humans on the planet that you could create amazing relationships with.
If it didn't happen with that person in the past because your brain wasn't ready for it, you weren't in the place to have that, or they weren't, or maybe now you are but they aren't, maybe they're now dating someone else, that doesn't mean you've missed, but you're one great chance for love.
It means that, okay, that person, it wasn't the right time with that person.
And there are other amazing people that you can create a great relationship with.
So I think for me, it's always coaching them through that scarcity mindset of like, that it's like that kind of, there's this one slice of pizza left in the box, or like this one partner left on the shelf like, and I have missed out.
No. There are always more amazing partners that we can connect with.
The world is with the world is not short of people.
And there are billions of amazing imperfect, flawed humans that we get to love.
And so yeah, I think that's the way I would coach them around that is really looking at scarcity mentality.
The scarcity mentality and dating right now, as I'm sure many of my 20 something single people can attest is wild.
Like it's absolutely wild.
It just I saw this like tiktok the other day and it's like if you met your partner on hinge, you got like the last chopper out of NAMM, like out of Vietnam, like you got the last lifeboat off the Titanic.
Like it's terrible.
That's hilarious. I know.
That was like, gosh, no wonder people feel like they need to like, no wonder people feel like they can't leave bad relationships, but also the sense of doubt around choosing the wrong person because if you've chosen the wrong person, eventually you'll be single again and it just seems all so terrible and bleak, which it isn't.
But I'm jumping the gun.
because I want to ask you this one question.
I wanted to get some of our basics down, Pat.
Are there certain people who are more prone to ROCD, relationship OCD, than others?
Yeah so I think there's so many things that can impact these kinds of thought patterns and one is childhood experiences.
You know, if you grew up in a family where maybe you saw a lot of problematic behaviour in a romantic relationship, you know, your mum and dad maybe, or maybe they went for a really painful divorce and that was really hard to witness.
You know our brains are always absorbing beliefs and we can absorb these beliefs from childhood that relationships are scary and dangerous or relationships aren't safe.
Relationships will end.
Relationships are scary.
And so childhood experiences is a huge one.
Social conditioning, which I know we've said as well, like all these messages we receive about, you know, how relationships should look, the Disney movies we watched, you know, the rom -coms we've seen, all this kind of social conditioning can really impact the way we think about it, but I think some people do just have more anxious tendencies than others due to their genes, their DNA, and it can be hard to pinpoint, and I think my advice for the clients is to worry less about why is my brain like this and focus more on how can I show up with compassion and care to work with what I've got.
You know, if my brain is absorbed this from somewhere, who knows why, could've been childhood, could've been a Disney movie I watched when I was five and my brain just really latched onto it.
Like who knows let's just meet you where you are and learn to guide ourselves through it.
Do you know how refreshing that take is?
I love to examine the why, but I think that it's like it's the why and the now.
And you need to be able to distinguish them because the past, your genetics, your personality, none of it is like none of it is don't want to say incorrectible none of it is rather not it's set in stone yeah we can end up trapped in the story where we're like well because my dad cheated on my mom five times like now I'm really bad at relationships and that's not me mocking anyone that this says those kinds of things that I totally understand it I've been that myself but we can end up trapped in that story where we identify as, I'm a person that's bad at relationships or I'm a person that can't
commit because of this thing.
And when we tell our brains that our brains like, okay, we don't commit that's who we are.
And there's no way out of that.
So yeah, I think just being able to recognize what might have contributed with compassion.
And then, okay, now what, what are we doing from here?
This is something I talk about a lot.
But also, just in my personal life with my friends, what is the story that you're telling yourself that is making your life less amazing than it could be?
Because each of us is telling ourselves a story.
Maybe it's not about relationship OCD.
Just think about it in general, that we're telling ourselves a story around how we're incapable.
We're telling ourselves a story around how we don't deserve certain things, about what people think about us, about the fact that our relationships are always going to fail.
I, again, I'm going to bring in a pop culture reference here, which I don't do that often, but there is so much pop culture references to Relationship OCD.
When you look for them, it's the song, the prophecy by Taylor Swift. Have you heard this song?
Yes, I was like. And it's the sense of like, I don't know if you've listened to this song, if you haven't.
It's such a beautiful song.
And it's basically like her talking about how she's deemed to always have her relationships fail.
special, and anyone who is anxiously attached, anyone who struggles with relationship anxiety, anyone who has just been, you know, unfortunate enough to have had too many relationships end and end up being lessons.
We'll relate to that song of feeling like it's a prophecy, this is set in stone.
And it most certainly is not.
And we've talked about the story that we might tell ourselves what about the story that society tells us?
What, what are we told relationships should look like?
And why do you find that sometimes unhealthy?
Wow, I could talk for hours about this but I'll try and streamline it a little bit for the sake of not sending everyone to sleep.
But yeah, we have absorbed so many messages from society, from you know even you know the parents, the caregivers, teachers, everyone that we've come into contact with our brains are always listening especially children were always absorbing messages and you know we kind of sold the idea of romantic relationships saving us you know especially as women and then this is one thing I want to say as well is that I think a lot of women in particular suffer with ROCD because they've kind of been taught that their romantic relationship is a reflection of their worth and value.
I mean and if we think about historically, you know at one point a woman's romantic relationship was literally her lifeline.
She didn't have a bank account, she didn't have a job, she didn't have a place to live on her own, she couldn't buy property.
A romantic partner was her lifeline, so although we're not living in that, thankfully, anymore, you know, it's still trickle down where women really believe that their romantic partner is a reflection of their worth and value.
If they don't have a romantic partner, it's because they aren't worthy and valuable in some way.
And if they do, that person is like this mirror of whether they are worthy and valuable.
And so yeah, we put a lot of pressure on our romantic relationships and we often kind of think of them as coming along to save us.
You know, if we're single, we think, oh, I'm going to get this person come along and they are going to be this amazing person that's going to come along and complete me.
They're going to be the other half of me.
they're gonna be my soulmate my one and only and then my life will be happily ever after and if we think of the Disney films that we've watched, think of rom -coms, you know, we always see them running off into the sunset together.
We don't see the after part of the happily ever after, you know, we don't see the part where Cinderella's sat round feeling a bit bored and frustrated because The Prince has been late home every night that week or, you know, we don't see them maybe start scrolling on their phones not having much to say to each other or the fact that they've maybe not had sex for a few weeks because you know they've been really tired.
We don't see the realities of relationships really played out to us even on social media you know and this is not kind of social media as follows.
It's just the way that it is, but we don't post our lows, we only post the highs.
We post the engagement photos, we post those gushy Valentine's posts when we're all dressed up.
Of course we're not going to post the mundane moments where we're just sad.
I'm like, Oh, look at me, I sat with my partner having nothing to say.
We're not going to post that." And the brain then subconsciously believes that those things don't exist. The boring, the mundane, the negative just doesn't exist. So then when we experience it, we think, what has gone wrong?
There must be something wrong in your mind.
Yeah, I must not be normal.
If I'm feeling like, look at everyone else is so happy, so connected, out doing cute things, having a great time all the time.
And I'm sat here feeling bored, and you know, maybe we were not doing anything this weekend something must be wrong and so yeah one of the expectations we have is for our relationships to be happy and blissful all of the time and we think our partners are supposed to fulfill every single need that we have and this is one of the things that I was saying about kind of people monitoring their emotions because they kind of believed that relationships and I was actually coaching someone last night who said the the same thing that well, relationships are supposed to be happy, right?
And we're like, I said, well, yeah, you know, happiness is one emotion, you're feeling your relationship, but what if you're supposed to also feel other emotions?
And it was like a kind of like a light bulb moment for her where she was like, oh, she thought that happy was the one emotion she was supposed to feel.
Sorry, I realize I'm talking a lot now, I get excited about this but - Oh, I love it, please.
But yeah, so we end up, if we do feel a negative emotion, like annoyed, irritated, frustrated with our partners, we start to panic and think oh, I shouldn't be feeling that, you know, why am I feeling this way?
This isn't normal and I think we're just so scared of doing it wrong that we become hypervigilant, you know, we start comparing, are we having sex enough compared to other couples?
Are we going on enough date nights compared to other couples?
As if there is just this one sex normal, and we just want to know that that exists so that we can then best assure that we are doing it right.
So yeah there's a whole lot of expectations to challenge and I think that is one of the biggest things that we have to do with ROCD is really looking at what is my unchecked story of how relationships should be, what is the reality, and you know, and a question I like to ask people is if you knew that that was just totally normal would it be a problem and for most of them are like oh no. If I knew that it was normal to sometimes go a few weeks without having sex. Like, I know it wouldn't be a big deal to me at all.
Like people almost need permission for it to be normal.
Like, it's okay. It sounds like I think it's because relationships are so nuanced and complex and complicated and something that's scary.
Like being in love is scary.
We look to be validated by what other people are doing because that provides us with some sense of confidence that we're doing it right.
It's like cheating off the test of someone next to you thinking that they know what they're doing and they don't actually.
And when you're talking about that client, that, you know, I have to feel happy in a relationship.
And you saying, well, what if your relationship is meant to teach you other things, you know, as humans, there was a study I read recently that we have access to of 34 ,000 different kinds of emotions, distinct different emotional states.
How boring would it be if your relationship only fulfilled one?
That means you would have 33 ,999 other emotions, maybe 998, if we also include love that you would have to find elsewhere.
Yeah, that doesn't sound particularly enjoyable.
Yeah, I love that you said that as well.
Cause one of the concepts I teach is called the the 50 -50 and it's this idea that life is supposed to be about the 50 -50, the the 50 -50 of positive and negative emotion and no matter where you are, no matter where you live, no matter what job you do, your brain is going to create the 50 -50 and I always think of like you know when you think of people that are rich and famous and have it all, that my brain goes to like the Kardashians.
You only have to watch an episode of The Kardashians to see that they are living the 50 -50.
They have a lot of positive emotion but boy do they have negative emotion too.
And they have money, they have cars, they have, you know, glamour, they have the big house, their brain is still creating the 50 -50.
They're gonna feel bored, they're gonna feel frustrated, they're gonna feel irritated, they're gonna feel disconnected sometimes.
And it's really this reminder that it doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing, you know, on my honeymoon in December, me and my wife sat on the beach one day and we were both just in a terrible mood.
And we both looked at each other, we were like, this really proves the idea of the 50 -50 because we're literally on our honeymoon on a beach and we're both really irritated.
Yeah, in love and we're both really irritated and we were like waiting for the boat to pick us up.
And we were like, we were just in like a bad mood.
And it's just this idea of, no matter which partner you have, no matter who you pick, your brain is going to create the negative 50.
Which include boredom, frustration, anxiety, irritation, all the things you said like it's gonna give you the whole spectrum.
And I think when we can know that we can worry less about, Okay, which right partner is going to give me the exit ramp of that human experience?
Which right partner is going to come along and save me from that negative 50?
And just which human do I want to enjoy loving while knowing my brain is going to create all of the emotions no matter what?
Yeah. Oh my God. I love the way you put that.
I absolutely love it.
We're going to take a short break here.
Let us have a little break for water.
A little tea break a thinking break, but we will return very very shortly Have you ever brought your magic to Walt Disney World like hey We came to Plank did you tip your tiara to a Creole princess or get goofy?
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Okay. We are back with the wonderful, brilliant Rebecca O to talk about relationship OCD.
So, something I know people are thinking is, if my brain is going to create the 50 -50 with anyone, when do I know what doubts to listen to and which ones to ignore?
Because there are people who are just strictly not right for us.
So do you have any tricks for telling the difference between an anxious thought and an actual doubt?
Yeah so there's a process that I would encourage people to try and it basically starts with self -soothing because in the moment where you feel triggered as in anxious you feel that kind of urgency what we've got to remember is that your brain is seeing whatever the situation is as dangerous your brain thinks that this relationship ending is is dangerous in some way or you know this partner not being right for you is dangerous, it's going to mean something bad.
So it's sounding the alarm and you can think of it like maybe an overprotective guard dog or a faulty smoke alarm, I sometimes use that analogy.
So your brain is sounding the alarm as if you know, there's a lion about to attack you when really okay your partner just might not be a good match for you if you're not going to die.
So we've got to start with just kind of grounding ourselves because when we're in that place of heightened anxiety or fear, the rational part of our brain is not online.
The prefrontal cortex, the part of our brain that is in charge of logical rational thinking, is completely offline and it's the primitive brain doing all the talking.
So in these moments you're feeling really triggered, you know, you're having a lot of doubts.
Just start by first of all observing the experience.
So I like to do this by just shifting to the observer of my thoughts.
So, okay, my brain is telling me this thought.
Or okay, I'm noticing my partner said this and my brain is making it mean this.
Okay, I'm just noticing my brain is telling me this.
So you're noticing it kind of like you're shifting to observing the story.
Then we've got to sit and ground ourselves back in our body.
We got to calm the body down again.
And we're signaling to the primitive brain.
It's okay brain, we're safe.
There's no lion, there's no tiger, we're actually safe.
So there's a whole process I teach on kind of grounding in the body, but it really involves being willing to sit and feel the emotions.
Feel the sensations of that anxiety.
Just notice where they are.
Take a breath around them, notice how you can just coexist with them, they can't hurt you, and try and just be present with that experience without trying to rush to escape it.
And the client I was coaching last night, we were talking about this and she always feels like it's an emergency.
she has to solve it right away.
So if her brain offers her these doubts she has to solve it, she has to know whether it's like, you know, right wrong go, what she's going to do.
So we've been really working on can she just sit and observe?
Like, oh okay like, I'm feeling this in my body and this is the story my brain is telling me.
Okay this isn't an emergency.
This is just, you know, a thought and feeling I'm having.
It's okay when you do that it's kind of like you're turning the volume down.
So what felt like a nine out of ten on the anxious doubt scary spiral scale is gonna come down to like a four or a three or even lower you can just bring your kind of it's gonna turn the volume down it's gonna bring the sensations down a little bit, they might not go completely but it's gonna just make them just kind of more like background noise.
From there that's when you can really check is there an unchecked story here?
Is there an expectation at play that I need to look at.
So I always like to get my clients to separate out what are the facts versus what is the story?
Just so they can check is this something I want to keep thinking.
So I had a client that would doubt whether her relationship was right whenever her and a partner sat in silence on the sofa scrolling on their phone and so the fact was they were sat in silence scrolling on their phones and her story was we should be more connected, we shouldn't ever feel bored, we should always have something to talk about.
So we've got to challenge those expectations and stories you know it's not really true that you should never feel bored ever just because you have a romantic partner like, why?
You know, do you have to be in conversation all the time to love and care about someone?
You know, is that really true?
Is it possible you can have nothing in particular to say in that moment and still really get on with that person and think they're great?
So it's kind of like really challenging those misconceptions, those expectations.
Is there a shot at play?
Who said that you should be doing this?
Where did that come from?
Was that something from childhood was that something from you know social media or the kind of Disney films you watched or you know rom -coms so doing that first is important, because you might discover after going through that process that there's no issue actually, it was just your brain, your fearful brain sounding the alarm to try and protect you and actually it's not not a problem.
Other times you might discover that there are things that are with deal -breaker, that maybe although you've challenged the story you still don't really like this or that there's something that maybe that goes against a value of yours, that doesn't feel good in a relationship.
And that's going to be so much easier to say when you're coming from a calm, rational place and you've challenged those stories first. I love that where it's like, okay.
We need to get back to that regulated, calm state before making any rash decisions.
I also think in my experience, and I've done a whole episode on this called anxiety versus intuition, your intuition about something is not going to demand an answer from you right away.
Your anxiety is urgent, your anxiety wants an accelerated solution so that it can return to an internal state of emotional homeostasis, your intuition will be like you make this decision in your own time.
That's a calm knowing rather than that anxious, yeah, totally.
Exactly. And it all comes back to this.
I also think, there are some pretty obvious red flags, right.
And I think that if you are continuously having this feeling of, this just doesn't feel right, and it's making you miserable in other situations, like where it just won't go away, and you are miserable because of it, and you've discussed it with that person, and they, and it just isn't being resolved.
Like there is a genuine need that is not being met for you.
It's like sitting on your phone with your partner.
If you are sitting on the couch and you're sitting in silence and you're kind of like, I actually kind of enjoy this, but maybe we shouldn't be doing this.
That's probably an anxious thought.
But if you're sitting on the couch and you turn to your partner and say, Hey, I actually really would want us to, I really want to connect right now.
And they're like, no, I don't want to leave me alone.
And then not listening to you.
Yeah. Like that, I think that is an actual doubt.
It's something that you can't collaborate through.
it's something that like if there's going to be this 50 -50 you want a team member.
You want someone who actually can collaborate with and compromise with if that's not them I think it's not going to work.
Yeah sorry I was just gonna say one it one of the things I teach as well is this idea of the want match. And it's this idea that we have different wants in a relationship and some people will match those and some people won't.
So you know you might have one for a partner that's really physically affectionate, and they might be someone that doesn't like physical affection.
Well that's not a one match then.
And I think yeah when we can really it's kind of like when we can calm the the overprotective guard dog down, like it's okay buddy, it's okay, we're gonna be all right.
We can then drop into that, well what are the deal breakers for me?
What is the kind of partner I want?
You know no, part is going to be perfect.
The person isn't gonna do it perfectly all the time, but are we aligned with our values and our want matches, you know, do we want the same things out of a relationship if this person wants to, you know, never really have sex, that's what they want, but you have a you know, you have a really strong sex drive and sex is really important to you.
Okay, that might not be a one match and that's okay too.
So yeah, I love that you said that and I think you're right, when we can kind of drop into that calmness, it becomes so much easier to decipher.
And if you have respect for the other person, I just feel like that is also, it's just such a big thing and if there's no respect, that is a deal breaker, you should listen to.
I also believe, and you can correct me on this, because you're the expert, but this is my personal opinion, I also believe that you don't have to address your doubts right now if you feel comfortable and stable.
You know what I mean?
The anxiety, again, is this urgent thing.
I find that sometimes with my relationship with OCD I'm like, what if I feel differently in five years.
And then I've wasted all this time, and there was something five years ago that I didn't see, and we're five years down the line, and I ignored it, and oh my god, now my whole life is over.
I think that is the story we've got to challenge as well.
And sorry to cut in that.
That is what I hear so much. When people say I'm so worried that I'm going to regret this in five years' time.
I think it's so interesting because if we think about your brain is constantly telling you stories.
And basically in those moments, were saying, I'm afraid that in five years time, my brain might tell me the story that I've wasted time.
And so I'm really afraid today that my brain is going to say something to me in five years time that I won't like.
But we forget that in five years time, we get to decide whether we believe that.
And I think this is why one of the things I always think of RCD is we've got to really look at what our brain is so afraid of underneath this all.
Like okay, if you are in this relationship and it ends in five years time?
What is scary about that?
And I think you know that there's that thought you said well it means I've wasted time.
That's not actually a fact that is totally an optional way to think and you know I always think I got married last year and I hope we're gonna stay together forever but if in five years time we don't we break up for whatever reason, I'm never gonna think oh I wasted time that was the wrong relationship and now I need to beat myself up for that.
I'm going to think you know, that was the total right decision for me in that moment and that was a beautiful relationship and if it ends in five years time I get to go and create another great relationship and I think that is really what we need to look at, you know.
What is it that you're afraid of?
Is it that you're going to tell yourself you chose wrong if this relationship ends?
Is it that you don't believe you could handle the breakup?
Is it a fear of getting divorced?
Is it you know that you think that you then won't be to meet anyone else at a certain age because I think we almost need to be willing for our relationships to end and know that we can handle them but for so many of us we see the idea of a relationship ending as failure so we think okay in order for me to see this is a success and believe I'm good at relationships and I'm doing it right this relationship has to last forever so we almost then start to work backwards and we're like okay well how do I know that this person's gonna be forever person?' Well, then I need to make sure that we never argued
that we... And then we start to look for all these red flags and and it just it ruins our experience of it versus what if it didn't need to last forever necessarily?
And again, I'm married, it's not me saying that I don't want my marriage to last forever.
I love it if it did.
But I'm open to the possibility that if it ended I could be okay.
And I wouldn't beat myself up, I wouldn't make it mean I failed, it wouldn't be a failed relationship, it would be a relationship that lasted however long it lasted.
So I don't know what you think of that and what that brings up for you, but that for me was a really kind of important piece of this as well.
I'll tell you what I think about that, absolutely amazing advice, I mean that's incredible advice, and I think that that is going to change the brain chemistry of a lot of people this thing because it is absolutely true, it's like just because a relationship doesn't last forever doesn't mean it wasn't beautiful, doesn't mean it wasn't right then.
And I think it's so funny.
You've just unlocked this in me of like, maybe, I think that all that our doubts are all that our anxiety is, is our brain trying to have some insurance against future suffering.
Yes, that's it. It's just like, okay, well, if I worry about this, this is like my insurance.
This is like, stop this.
I'm sorry. But your anxiety is going to do nothing to stop you from suffering in the future.
It's just going to make you suffer now.
Again, there's this huge study in psychology that basically says we tend to over dramaticize or intensify how we think we'll feel in the future, so you're sitting here right now and you're saying, well if I don't get the dream job now in 10 years, I'm going to feel so terrible.
Actually they've done studies on this and they've found most of the time people actually feel pretty neutral.
We over exaggerate how we think we'll feel in the future.
And this is the same thing with relationship OCD.
Your relationship doesn't work out.
It is going to be devastating, but it's not going to.
Your life isn't going to be over.
You will be fine. People, so many people have made this pilgrimage, have had relationships that have failed, and they have thought it was absolutely perfect.
So your anxiety doesn't mean one thing or the other.
It's just, again, this insurance.
But I want to ask this follow up question, which is you're sitting here you're doubting your relationship, you're with this amazing person, how do you deal with the guilt of that?
Do you, the guilt of like, well if I'm having doubts, maybe they are better off without me.
Yeah, oh that's so, so common as well.
And, and yeah, there's so much shame and guilt around this.
And, and yeah I think the most important thing to remember is that you aren't your thoughts.
So the thoughts you have of doubt of judgment towards your partner, of doubting if you love them enough, doubting whether they're right for you, you're not those thoughts, you're just the observer of those thoughts.
Those thoughts are just random sentences that your brain offers you, and your brain works through repetition.
So the fact that they come up so often, it's just because those are the ones you've been practicing for so so long.
They're like your brain's, it's like a radio station that loves to play the same three songs, like your brain is going to keep offering you the same thoughts that it loves to play the most, and that's all these thoughts are, they're just, they've been programmed into your brain from so many places, maybe past experiences, maybe messages from society, maybe, you know, early traumas that you had, or just these fears and doubts about what it would mean if the relationship ended.
You know, that is what created these thoughts.
So it's kind of remembering that you just get to observe the thoughts, you don't need to beat yourself up for the thoughts being there.
And you know, having those doubts isn't a sign that you're a mean, unloving person or even that you don't love your partner.
It's just a sign that your brain has been trained to think in a certain way about relationships right now so i would always say if you notice you're feeling guilty you're shaming yourself try and shift to some self -compassion of like i'm just a human with a very normal human brain and that's okay no my fears and doubts aren't me i'm just the observer of them that's okay there's a new therapeutic practice called radical self -compassion that i came across a few years ago just like changed my life it's like you you can promise to unconditionally love someone else.
Why can't you promise to unconditionally love yourself?
Like that's completely possible.
It's also coming back to this, you know, that's a term OCD is in relationship OCD.
OCD is defined in large part by intrusive thoughts that we feel like we don't have control over.
That really aligns with this guilt, this sense of like, why am I thinking this?
I must be a bad person.
And people with just, you know, regular OCD will find that a lot, like, why am I thinking about, why am I thinking about crashing this car?
Why am I suddenly thinking these terrible things?
This means something about me and what you're saying is, you know, it doesn't, which I think is really, really beautiful.
Yeah, it totally doesn't.
It's just the way your brain has been trained to think right now.
And, and that's okay.
You can just be it's almost like you can think of your brain as this separate entity from you, like it you can use different analogies.
Whether you think of it like a scared, frightened animal, like a little toddler, you know like, you're the parent of it, like whatever analogy works for you, but you want to remember that you are the manager of your mind.
You're not your mind and and really changing your relationship to it is so important.
If every time your brain says something to you, you freak out and take it super seriously or you beat yourself up for having it or you start to scream at it, why are you like this?
You know that's not going to be a very great way of managing it versus calmly being able to observe what it's saying.
And guide it to where you want it to go.
Again, such beautiful advice.
Well, we're going to take one more short break, and when we return, we've got some wonderful listener questions, so stay with us.
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OK, Rebecca, this is something I've been doing recently where, you know, there are just so many niche questions that people have for me out there about specific topics.
And I want to make sure that we cover everything that they ask.
So I've got four listener questions for you today.
Actually, three listener questions and one bonus question for me.
So I'm going to tell you those right now, starting with this first question, which is coming from Emma, I feel like I'm totally, madly, in love with my partner and we have a beautiful relationship except for one thing.
I feel like we cannot communicate and we're always having fights slash tension over the same things, over and over again.
Should I break up with them or do I just accept this as a flaw that they will always have and live with it.
Yeah, that's an interesting question and I think it was kind of hard for me to give an answer in the sense of knowing more about the context of the situation would be really important but also there is no right answer.
You know there's no expert out there that can tell you what relationship is right for you or when to stay or when to go, that's never my job but I think before you make a decision to leave or staying, you just do do some real self -reflection on your own thoughts and feelings and the way you're showing up.
Because if you do decide to leave, this can just be a really great opportunity for you to take back control of who you are in relationships.
So noticing, OK, what is the pattern in this communication?
Is it that I say something, that they say something and then I get defensive and they get defensive?
We want to just look at what is going on and really come back to owning your side of it.
You know, okay, well, how are you approaching conversations?
What is the feelings you're having and what are the reoccurring thoughts driving that?
You know, do you keep making him sighing, enduring an argument mean he is unbothered?
Or like, whatever, and can we just, let's just challenge some of that, so we can see, is there a different way to navigate these moments that might turn the volume down on them completely, that might make it less of a problem?
So again, that's really hard to just coach on it, just a short, pippy answer on a podcast, but I would do some work on that really looking at, okay, what are my thoughts and feelings during these situations, and how do those thoughts and feelings have me showing up?
And is that intentional?
Am I really showing up as my intentional, higher self in these moments?
And if not, there's no shame there.
We all struggle with that from time to time, but spend a moment just trying to work on that for yourself.
and I always advise getting curious about what might be going on in our partner's brain too.
You know, if your partner keeps having the same response to something, let's get curious.
You know, what might that be about for them?
You know, do they keep hearing something you're saying and interpreting it as they're not good enough?
You know, me and my wife had this at the start of our relationship whenever I kind of gave some feedback or some criticism on something, she'd get very defensive and when I kind of dropped into that curiosity and and even got curious with her about you know what is it that comes up for you when I say that what's going on for you.
It was that she thought I was saying she was a bad part and I wasn't saying that at all but that was what her brain was hearing so I think we can bring that curiosity and and and then see what comes out of that but yeah there's gonna be at some point where you've really worked on yourself in it you know you're doing your best you're showing up as your best self and the other person isn't able to meet you where you want them to be or that they're not able to to kind of have the same values with you in terms of communication and openness or you know, emotional regulation, whatever it is.
And I think, yeah, sometimes it's accepting that okay, this is the person for who they are.
This is who they are.
Is this someone I want to commit to loving for the good, the bad, the ugly?
I love that advice.
Our second question comes from a listener called Sean.
Sean asks, Is there a correlation between relationship OCD and an anxious attachment style?
Hmm, I mean yeah I would definitely say so.
I think with anyone with an anxious attachment style, their brain is kind of programmed to see relationships as dangerous, unsafe.
They think that how this person behaves will either create safety or you know danger.
So they are constantly monitoring you know what's this person doing, what does it mean about me if they leave me, what does it mean about me?
If they're not as interested anymore, and there's this kind of focus on the other person to create this inner feeling of safety and security, totally of course then relates to ROCD because it's kind of the same fixation.
The brain is seeing that thing outside of you, that person, that relationship as either safe or dangerous and trying to work out which it is and kind of create safety from it.
So, yeah, I definitely think there's a correlation there, and for me I think whether it's ROCD, whether it's anxious attachment, it's really coming back to looking at your internal experience rather than trying to focus on the external rather than focusing on what is my partner doing or not doing.
It's okay what are the thoughts and feelings I'm having and what is that bringing up.
Like what is whatever's going on out here bringing up within me and because that's where the safety and security is actually created, it's never created by the thing outside of us.
It's created by our own thought and the beliefs we have. So yeah, I hope that answers that question.
There's definitely a correlation.
And yeah, coming back to whichever it is getting curious about your internal experience is really important.
Again, excellent advice.
So this is the final listener question.
My relationship OCD is so bad that I cannot go more than a day without thinking that I should break up with my partner.
I love them. But some part of me really just wants a break from my own thoughts.
Would you recommend taking some time away just to get my relationship OCD under order slash regulated or should I stick it out and work with them?
It's a really good question.
And again, I want to say that there's no right or wrong.
if you feel like you just really need a break, do it.
You know what's right for you.
Let yourself be the guide of that.
But one thing I will say is that, often when we're experiencing an emotion we don't like, like anxiety, we think the solution is to remove the external thing that we're blaming for causing it.
So with ROCD, we think anxious detachment, it's the partner.
We think, let's remove that and then I won't have to have these thoughts and feelings.
And there's some truth in that, you know, if that's the thing that triggers the thoughts and feelings, okay, you're probably going to get some relief, but what we don't really realise is that, well, those thoughts and feelings are still going to be there the minute we go back to the relationship or the minute we start another relationship.
I've seen so many people leave relationships thinking, okay, this partner was the problem.
I'm going to leave, and then they have the same anxious, doubtful thoughts in the next one.
And they're like, oh damn it.
Turns out changing the partner didn't really work.
So my advice, if you feel like you're able, if you don't feel like you know you're at the a real burnout place with it that you just need the break, take that if you need it but I would also consider what if instead of trying to escape the thoughts what if I could work on changing my relationship to them so if your brain keeps offering you the thought this relationship is wrong for me I should end this relationship you want to start changing your relationship to that thought so when it comes up it can be like oh there's my brain's favorite story again.
I'm noticing my brain is offering me that story again that this relationship is wrong for me.
Interesting, like here's my brain's favorite story to tell me right now.
And kind of change how seriously you're taking it.
Consider, how does it make sense that your brain is offering this to you?
Oh it makes total sense my brain wants to keep going back here because it's terrified of this relationship being wrong for me or it's terrified of me ever happen to go for a break up in five years time.
Okay, so it makes sense that my brain keeps wanting to offer me these thoughts.
And so there's so much more work you can do and that there's different kind of tools you can use for defusing thoughts, there's things that you can kind of sing the intrusive thought to yourself, it kind of lightens the mood of it and there's things like kind of seeing the thought coming from this like a separate voice from you and there's different things you can do but that would be my advice to you is how can you make the occurrence of this thought less of a problem because what that's gonna do is turn down the volume on it altogether it's gonna see like less of a problem and from that your
anxiety is going to come down a lot as well.
This final question is for me and I ask every single guest on the show this question, what is one piece of advice you'd have for anyone in their 20s that has nothing to do with what we talked about today?
Well the thing I was gonna say was change our relationship to our thoughts but I guess I can't say that, it's got nothing to do with it.
Honestly, yeah I know it's difficult, and yeah honestly then the piece of advice I'd give to anyone in their 20s is just to go easy on themselves.
I know that sounds like such a basic thing to say but I think sometimes it does kind it does kind of tie into what we're talking about but we have so much pressure from things we see on social media, from expectations maybe our parents have of us, from what our you know friends are doing and I think just remembering that you know life is supposed to be fun.
That you know you can actually change so much of your experience of what you're going through in any situation by just lightening up and being a little bit more of a friend to yourself about it, you know, offering yourself that compassion being your own biggest cheerleader and remembering that you know that there's nothing that could happen that you couldn't be equipped to handle and that is something I really focus on a lot with my own clients is looking at whatever that fear is that worst -case scenario and considering you know how could I feel empowered to show up to handle that if it happened
you know what would I want think and feel if that happens.
So yeah I think kind of a mixed bag of advice that of course as I was going to say your relationship to your thoughts and changing that is so so important but also working on having more of that light -hearted compassionate you know kind of supportive relationship with yourself is such a game -changer and if you can master that in your 20s your 30s your 40s, it's gonna all be great.
If you can work on that relationship with you, where you know I'm gonna have my own back no matter what happens, it's gonna be great.
That's such a resounding beautiful way to finish this episode.
I wanna thank you so much for coming on.
I'm gonna leave all of your links below, but where can people find you?
Yeah, amazing. So I'm on Instagram mainly, so you can find me at Rebecca, or coaching.
So that's Rebecca. And then ORE coaching.
You can also come find me on my podcast, which is master your relationship, mind drama.
And yeah, I'll send you all the links to the website and things like that.
But yeah, Instagram on my podcast mainly, where people can come find me if they want to know more about thought work and managing their thoughts and managing their anxiety.
I talk a lot about that on the podcast as well.
Clara I know your podcast is actually the perfect But if this is an episode that you really related to, go and check out Rebecca's podcast cause there's so much advice there.
But as always, if you enjoyed this episode as well, share it with a friend who might need to hear it.
Leave a five star review, wherever you are listening, make sure you're following along and make sure you're following along on Instagram at that psychology podcast. It's where I got the listener questions today.
It's where I love to engage with you all.
If you've made it this far into the episode, hello, lucky, lucky, lucky, I want you to leave a little magic crystal ball emoji in the comments because that's what we think our relationship OCD is, and it's not.
So it's also a great way to be the loyal listeners.
Yeah, who's listened this far?
And as always, we will be back next week.
Until then, stay safe, please be kind.
In the theme of today's episode, be gentle with yourself and we will talk very, very soon.
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