If I wanted all of my kids by 30, I should have started like five years ago.
Thottie Thornback, am I doing something wrong?
No.
I'm still as single as I was when I was 13.
It is not actually peace because it is delusion.
Hello and welcome to Hot Pursuit, a podcast about creating conversations where nothing is off limits.
This podcast is produced by Asian Boss Girl.
What is a thornback?
A thornback is an unmarried woman who is supposedly, I think, no skills and very ugly and has not had a man to come save her from her predicament.
What predicament are you in?
And you have to be over 25.
Over 25?
Oh, don't talk to her.
She's a thorn back.
I'm like, 25 is when you expire?
Are you kidding me?
When I saw a box of my grandparents' documents and one of the documents for my grandma, she was 29 at the time when she came to America, I think, and it labeled her spinster.
It literally said spinster.
Yeah.
It was crazy.
So we are like beyond expired.
We're beyond spinsters, yeah.
Today we're talking about outlasting the drought because we are all in our 30s and... Surprise!
And single.
Surprise!
Not surprise.
We're in our 30s, young 30s, but 30s nonetheless.
And single.
And we have lived all of our twenties, just watching every friend get married.
And recently we were talking and we said it feels like, with all the marriages that happened and all the relationships that we had, to just like sit through and watch people have People are starting to have kids.
People are starting to have divorces.
People are starting to have like really deep crises in their life.
And we are like, we sit back and we think maybe we have outlasted the drought.
Maybe it was better this way.
Maybe it was all for a purpose.
No shade to anyone who's no.
No, no shade to anyone who's like currently married.
But we grew up none of us are from California, so it's very customary for the cultures that we grew up in to get married pretty early.
So I saw a lot of my friends get married at like 22 to like maybe 28.
So it was just like, that's what people expected.
And since we kind of have crossed that line without a husband, we've had these like thoughts about ourselves.
Is there something wrong with us?
Like, what did we miss?
Did we miss anything?
And now I think, being in our 30s, we're looking at all of these relationships and how our lives are so different from our friends who are married.
And we go, oh, you know, maybe this is the better path.
Or maybe it's okay and fine and there's nothing to worry about.
Because how many holidays have I been to where everyone's asking, are you dating?
When are you going to date?
You need to have kids.
Or how many parties have I been to where I am the 19th wheel?
How many relationships have I sat through of girlfriends debating whether or not to marry the guy that they're with?
And when you're surrounded by all of that all the time, you're just kind of like damn, I'm not looking actively.
I'm open to it.
But if I'm not looking, am I doing something wrong with my life?
I have one life.
The vanity and the beauty you have when you're young, everyone tells you, you can feel it expiring.
I feel it expiring.
Yeah.
You can feel like the respect for society just like waning, like the little respect that they even maybe had for you just evaporating with your age.
So it's like, am I just flinging my rings off?
Am I making a grave mistake by not trying to find a life partner and reproduce?
And for the longest time I felt that way.
Yeah.
Especially mid to late 20s into early 30s.
Well, no, late 20s.
I was just like oh, if I wanted all of my kids by 30, I should have started like five years ago.
But I'm here now.
So it's already too late for me.
And it doesn't help that everyone's always questioning you and asking why don't you have you're such a great catch?
Why don't you have a boyfriend?
As if getting married will make you more of a complete person.
It's kind of like, that's the rhetoric.
Gives you more value.
Yeah, yeah.
There's always the comment of like, you seem like you'd be so green or like you're so wonderful.
I don't, what are all these guys doing?
And I'm like, girl, I don't know.
You tell me.
They're scared of you.
You tell me.
Did you guys ever play the board game Life as a kid, where you have a little car and you pick your little driver, do the peg.
You ever play this board game?
I've seen it.
No, but yeah, I have played it once.
Yes, there's a spinner and then you buy a home, and then you pick a career card and all that kind of stuff.
I literally see that board game sometimes and people are seemingly down the path and they're about to win the game because they're going to get to retirement faster.
If anyone has played the game, you know if you're not, it's just that insane.
And I'm back here at square four being like, I'm still as single as I was when I was 13.
Yeah.
And then you feel like you're like, am I behind?
Yes.
They're making life changes and strides forward that feel like there's forward progression.
Yes.
Am I behind?
Yes.
Especially when you go home.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Every time, every time I go home, I feel like I'm so behind, because everyone's married, everyone has a house, everyone's on their second kid.
And then we come here.
I love coming back to L.A. because then I'm like, Oh my gosh, thank God.
Like 39 and being single is so normal.
So normal.
39 is young, even 45, that's pretty young.
People don't question you when you're 45 and single in LA versus back in Texas.
They're like what happened?
There must be something wrong with you.
You see the puzzled look in their face when they're making small talk with you.
Yeah.
They're just like, what have you been up to lately?
Are there any boys?
Yeah.
I visit my family overseas and I have like a really like delicate, heartwarming heart to heart with one of my aunts.
And then, just out of nowhere, as there's like a lull in the conversation, she goes I'll pray for you.
Thanks, I guess.
No, my aunt says that too.
She's like, Emily, you're such a good catch.
Like, I just don't know what these boys are waiting for.
Like, are you praying?
Are you looking?
Even my mom, she was just like, Emily, I don't think you're gonna find anyone at your church.
You should go to a Chinese church.
You should come to this church way out on the east side.
I'm like, that's like an hour and a half drive every Sunday.
She's like, well, do you wanna be married?
And I'm like, I'm not going to hunt for my man.
He's just going to land in my lap.
That's what I pray for.
I say, Dear Jesus, please, if I am to be married, just have him come to me.
Men used to hunt and gather.
They can hunt and gather me.
Actually, no, that sounds bad, but they can find me.
I'm right here.
Maybe pursue is the better word.
Pursue, pursue.
I'm not hiding.
I'm not hiding.
I'm on a podcast, for God's sake.
Meanwhile, my father, any male name in any story, Dude, is he single?
I'm like, no, that's my manager.
No, that's my coworker.
Didn't your father, he said, Jen, you should wear makeup.
Oh, yeah.
I was going to church.
I was facetiming them before church and I was like I'm gonna chat with you as long as I can until I need to go, because I need to go at 1030.
It was like 10.15.
And he was like, don't you need to get ready for church?
And I was like, no, I'm gonna chat with you until 10.30, then I'll leave at 10.30.
He was like, you're not gonna put makeup on?
Father!
I was like, no, I'm going to praise the Lord.
No, but people go to church for that.
He was like, a little doesn't hurt, you know?
Oh my gosh.
I thought he said, oh, it really helps.
Is that what he said?
I was like, okay, end FaceTime thigh, 15 minutes to do this look.
As you like swipe mascara and smear it.
Yeah.
But I feel like church is the worst place to meet people.
Don't get me started on Christian men.
What's it called?
Scabs?
What was that?
Oh, no, no.
Short Christian Asian boys are like triple oppressed.
I forget.
Triple oppressed.
Because they're oppressed by their height, their ethnicity, and their gender.
I forget.
No, no, no.
No, they're gendered.
Oh, and their religion.
Height, ethnicity, and religion.
Height, ethnicity, religion.
That's just been like a thing circulating online.
Avoid the scabs because they're triple oppressed.
But yeah, I, oh my gosh.
We could have a whole episode about Christian boys.
All that to say, we have all reached a point in our mid to late 20s where we thought is there something wrong with me?
Yeah.
My conclusion is that I am part of the problem.
Oh.
You think you're part of the problem.
How?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because I was closed off in this area to men for like many, many years.
Partially.
You mean like dating?
Dating, men.
Partially it was a bad ending of a relationship and I was hurt, real bad, and I was like I never want to feel this way again.
I think I told people during the period, I don't have any more heartbreaks in me anymore.
And that's just not the way to date.
That's not the way to like, you know, you can't.
The other problem was I think like I just didn't trust myself around men.
I think it brought out sides of me that I didn't really like.
And so I thought in my like early 20s brain like oh, I just need to like cut this area off and detox from it and not think about them all other than a wall.
So I was like just completely try to like turn away from this area and just steal walls multi-layered.
Turn away.
The cold war.
Yeah, really, really.
Cold war on men.
So we're sawing the ice now.
Yeah, we're currently sticking the hunk of frozen chicken in boiling water.
Both of us have a flamethrower.
We're just like every day, we'll have to melt the ice just one layer at a time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I really noticed it recently with because I'll have friends say like I never heard you even say like that guy was really cute or that you found him attractive.
You just didn't talk about it at all.
Cause you cut yourself off from this area for all these years.
So we're thawing the ice.
So therefore, they're like, I am the problem.
You guys probably are not the problem, but I am the problem.
Is that considered a problem?
Is finding a partner a problem to be solved?
Or is that just like a life choice?
Yeah, what is the problem?
What is the problem?
Right?
What's the problem?
I don't see a problem.
I just see maybe you had a lifetime of peace.
We have other things to come back with this one.
But what is the problem?
Yeah, like what is said problem you're referring to specifically?
Is it like Because the larger question is, is there a problem with me because I don't have a spouse?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right?
And then you conclude okay, maybe I am part of the problem because I wasn't open to dating, but what within?
That is the problem.
Well, so there's a period of time where I was like I don't need this 101, so I don't want to think about it.
And so I was, like, denying the desire.
It's the toxic like I don't need a man type of – which like actually a healthier version of that is like I am at peace with myself versus I don't need a man, but like let me keep – kind of like cutting off that desire or like wanting it, but you just don't admit it.
And you like delude yourself into thinking like, I don't want this, I don't need this at all.
And there's a version of that.
I think for me that I bought into where I was like I don't need this at all.
And I have a friend that also did that too.
So we were just in an echo chamber together.
So I think the problem is that like, it is not actually peace.
Because it is delusion.
But here's the thing.
But you wanted it.
Delusion feels like peace for a period of time.
It does.
It really feels.
Until things start to break.
Until things start to break and you're like oh, I was in denial versus like no, I actually came to peace and contentment with something.
Yeah.
Where do you think that notion of the hyper-independence of I Don't Need a Man came from?
Just media, like your friends?
I've always been hyper-independent as an only child.
Listen to that episode, by the way.
Yeah, always been hyper-independent.
And then I think also like, Um, my parents are both hyper independent.
And so like what I was always taught is like, just handle things by yourself.
Don't ask for help.
You don't need this.
You need this.
And it was never encouraged either to like do life with others and like yeah, build that companionship.
Um, but then also at the same time, Jen wear makeup.
Yeah, now, now.
Now that I've turned 30.
For most of my 20s, it was not.
Where was the switch?
I turned 30, and they were like, oh, my God.
Babies.
I need to crochet things for your baby.
It's so true.
Like when, when I was in college, my dad was like, don't date, don't date, don't date.
And literally once, once I graduated, he was like, why aren't you talking to anyone?
The Asian, I wasn't allowed to.
The Asian American experience.
Yeah.
My friends.
Yeah.
It's just like it's.
Either they're a distraction, don't you dare yeah, or just like why haven't you been talking to anyone?
I need a grandchild.
Where's the middle?
Where's the middle, yeah.
Yeah, my dad says that too.
I just want a grandchild.
Or it's also from a desire for you to be taken care of.
For my family.
It's like you're a nice child.
You don't have siblings, so it's like yeah yeah, yeah.
So they don't have to stress about their child.
Yeah, it's like, when I die, someone will take care of you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's nice.
That's a nice sentiment.
I'm like, I'm going to have to take care of them too.
Yeah.
You need a helper.
You need a helper.
Thank you.
There was one time where we were talking to your parents and we were going through all of my exes remember.
Oh, yeah.
And basically Jen's parents were judging all of my exes via photo.
And so then we asked mom and dad, which one do you want for me?
And her mom literally said, just play with Jen.
It's not worth it.
She said, you be her life companion.
And now we live together.
They are domestic partners.
We often joke like if all of us one of us were married with a child, like this would not even be possible.
And like so the capacity to give to your relationships, to your passions, to your dreams, to the things that you care deeply about.
You have so much more capacity right now.
I feel that compared to when I look at like married life or with children, like you just don't, it's a limitation.
When my last relationship ended, I remember talking to my brother about it and he was, as you know, a family member, is very concerned about you and wanting you to find a life partner and not understanding why you're giving up chances.
He asked why?
Because this person like clearly loves you, like they take care of you.
What is not working?
And I remember very clearly articulating to him, I can just run so much faster on my own.
And he said my brother had said what's the point of running if you end up at the destination alone?
And the thing is, there's so much validity in both of those, right?
And it's not to say that I only want one over the other and maybe a few years down, I want that with somebody.
But right now, at this point in my life, I felt so much weight.
I felt like I was held back so much.
So back to what Jen was saying in terms of you just have so much more capacity to give.
And even in the little things down to lifestyle decisions for me, like if I just want to pick organic meat and not fight about it.
You know that's like a really microcosmic example, but a macrocosmic example is fighting about career and like where you can be and and if this other person wants their career to be x, y and z and they also want to have kids and they also have all these things like you have to think about and consider All of those and I mean there's an element of being selfless and loving, but there's also an important part of acknowledging what you want.
And as women you are pretty much taught in society to absorb dismiss, just become the vehicle to someone else's success.
Fit into their world.
I hate when I hear men be like, I'm finally ready to find someone who will fit into my world.
No.
How about we fit?
Make a new world together.
No.
Yeah.
Love and money.
I don't think any of this is just to downplay married life too, because I feel like as single people we're able to spread our love so much wider.
Yeah, but like in a, in a married relationship, and like once you start having kids, the concentration of love, i feel, is like way more intense.
Yes, but your world shrinks down to your home yeah, yeah.
So it's just like what kind of life do you want?
Yeah, and so i feel.
I feel, for our personalities we would have to i don't know like the kind of guy that we would finally say yes to really has to be worth condensing our love into.
Yeah, because there's just like so much love that we can find elsewhere and like, of course we're not going to settle, But I see my friends who are happily married and it's just like such a beautiful life as well.
And I'm just like, wow, I can't wait to experience that.
But until then, I'm actually still very happy with my life.
Yeah, because in my privileged single life, even though I see the beautiful sides of marriage, I still think to myself like thank God, I don't have to think about those things right now.
You know what i mean.
Like when i hear about the conversations, or like the, the considerations they have to take or even the plans that they have to make, i am thankful that i don't have to deal with that right now and i mean that's like a very privileged place to say because i don't have any other responsibilities other than myself.
But, like as a modern woman, like i want to enjoy that.
Yeah Yeah, and we have the luxury to now, because it's no longer a necessity to get married.
And it's like the first time in history that women really get this choice.
And there's so many of them.
So we're going to take it.
It's also fascinating to see that the challenges and the things that married people think about and what we think about are different, but it's easy for us to desire what the other has.
We had one of our friends who's married and is thinking about having a kid now.
Shout out to you, bub had a period of time of wrestling through this exact question, which is what is the dream now?
The dream for her, like finally coming to like peace with the dream is to build a beautiful family.
But that also means setting aside other dreams that she might have for other passions and desires.
And the flip side of that for us is like, gosh, there's all these dreams that we have now.
And maybe there is the dream still to have a family and have a kid, and that time may come.
But right now we have the capacity to give so much to the dreams and passions and the things that we think the world can become more beautiful with the season that we're in.
Right now, the time
But it's like, To want it all is almost always gonna breed discontent.
To want to have both in either season is too much.
It feels impossible.
It's literally impossible.
I think, growing up younger, you think that you can have it all, and it feels nice to hear that you can have it all, but I think the reality is there's so many trade-offs that you make and being content with the trade-offs is actually what's important, instead of trying to figure out how to fit it all in and stretched in every direction.
Yeah.
Trade-offs are beautiful.
Trade-offs are good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But you can't 100% pursue a dream when you're raising someone and be 100% present with them as well.
There has to be sacrifice.
And similarly, when you are raising someone and you are a critical part of a family, you will have to deny parts of yourself in order to like pour into that family the way it should.
Unless your dream is to be a mother.
I envy those.
Yeah.
Yeah, like a wife and a mom.
And they do such a good job, too.
And then, so they get it all.
They're like, this is the life I wanted.
Couldn't be me, though.
So how do you grapple with finding that contentment?
Like, when does it get better in the midst of our when we were in our mid to late twenties?
Like when did we really feel like we were content with being single, despite watching everyone kind of go off on their way?
I think for me, it was after I broke up with my boyfriend.
Which one?
My last one.
My last one, because we started dating around the season where all my friends started getting married.
So I was like, okay, let's go down this path, see where it goes.
And, like throughout the relationship, it had a lot of highs, it had a lot of lows, but one thing remained consistent, and it was just like I have to consider this person.
I'll have to teach him how to communicate with me and vice versa.
And he has to be patient with me and I have to be patient with him.
And there's just, a lot of stress that you don't have as a single person.
And so after that relationship ended, of course, it was so sad.
And I was like down in the dumps for probably four months.
But But after that, I felt so much peace.
I felt a lot of liberty just to pursue what I wanted.
And then I also felt I had a lot of time.
I had a lot of time and money and I didn't have to think about like and spending time with them and seeing them all the time I felt like oh finally, now I can be a hundred percent in what I want and like, in pursuing what I want.
And so like, after losing something that I felt would fulfill me.
That's when I finally found freedom, if that makes sense.
Like I finally felt like, oh, you know, maybe this side, this side is not better.
It's just like I see a lot of benefits to it and how it benefits my current season of life right now.
And I really like it.
Yeah.
And like sure I could date here and there.
But now I feel the bar is much higher for if I do want to enter into like a committed relationship with the goal of marriage.
There are like a way like way more.
What is it called qualifications?
There are way more qualifications he will have to get through for me to be like okay, I'm willing to change my entire life for you.
Yeah.
What are those qualities?
I just want a best friend.
And I feel like it's kind of hard to find a best friend.
He ain't going to be me, though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because I look at my parents' marriage, and they're best friends.
So I saw that.
I grew up with that.
And I'm like, I'm not going to settle for anything other than that.
My sister and her husband, they're also best friends.
They're so cute.
And so for me, I'm like, why would I not want a best friend?
I have yet to find someone who is like who makes me like laugh a lot.
Yeah.
I'm just kind of looking for something that feels right and like an energy.
But, like most of the guys that I've been meeting, are just like.
They just like to stroke their own ego.
And I'm just like, my best friend wouldn't do that.
That's like a good litmus test.
I always think, would my husband do this?
Would my best friend do this?
And if it's no, then they're probably not it.
But it's very subjective to me.
So I don't know if it's fair or accurate, but that's just how I do things from now on.
But I'm very happy right now being single, because I get to like I live around the corner from my best friends and we get to go on walks.
It's so nice.
It's so nice.
So anyway, when did you realize like, oh, maybe, maybe it's okay to be single right now.
When I was younger, I had this whole timeline in my head.
I had the pen in my hand and I was like, I'm gonna write my story.
And I was gonna get married when I was 26.
I was gonna have three kids.
Two boys and a girl, as if you can choose.
I was gonna have one at 28, one at 30, and one at 32.
Because my mom had me when she was 28.
And then I turned 28.
And then I was like, I think we need to let the stream go and embrace reality.
Speaking of letting go of dreams.
Yeah.
I think it literally is like when what you thought was going to happen doesn't happen.
Then you're now free.
I was now freed and opened up to just like, okay.
Well, whatever story is going to be written for me, that's the story.
So it's basically when my little booklet got like ripped through the shroud.
I was like, all right, blank sheet now, white canvas.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you outgrew your plan.
Yeah, my childhood fantasies and desires.
I think that's when it changed for me.
I think turning 30 also like –
There's nothing with the number.
This solidifies.
Something in the number though.
Nothing is important about the number, but then something about being in that number.
You're just like we've arrived.
Yeah.
We're here.
And also, I think the shift in the external environment forces me to have to face Okay, how do you feel about it?
Like there's all these people that are gonna be like, oh my God, it's time now.
What are you thinking?
And I think the, what is Newton's law of like an equal, a force?
There's like an equal and opposing force against another force.
It's like, there are many forces on the outside now.
So you really gotta solidify.
How do I feel about this?
Am I okay?
I have to answer all these questions all the time now.
So we've got to double down on...
We're good with like, life is good now, I promise you.
And the time will come, and there's no.
I actually also feel like the more desperate and urgent the people around me are about it, the more calm I am.
You're just like, oh, chill.
Yeah, I'm like, I see the energy that this is and I'm like.
You're just like, oh.
Yeah, I don't resonate.
Yeah, because you're not going to get married for the sake of getting married either.
Some people do that.
Exactly.
Because they have a timeline that they want to adhere to, which is fine.
That's fine.
But also maybe it's not if it's not the right answer for you.
Yeah.
Exactly.
If you don't fit into the timeline, that's okay.
It's like trying to fit yourself into pants that don't fit anymore.
Yeah.
Just get bigger pants.
You got to fit that ass somewhere.
Yeah, all that ass.
Just get bigger pants.
Yeah, the skinny jeans were not made.
Bigger pants exist.
Clothes were made for you, not the other way around.
Yeah, and I feel like it's just harder in general to find a partner because there's no cultural system set in place anymore.
We don't have arranged marriages.
We don't have a place we go to to get Matched.
Well, there are, but you have to pay for it.
It's just not something your mom takes you to.
You have to find him yourself.
I think once you like, deciding what you feel about things despite what people are asking you is so important and once you can just drown out that noise for a moment and ask yourself am i actually happy with this life, you know, am i happy with the decisions i've made, with where i've gotten myself, with the friends and the relationships that i have right now with the existing family that i have?
Is that enough for me right now?
And if you are not looking at the outside, if you're not looking at your friends, you're not comparing.
Are you happy?
That's the important question.
And if you are like, fuck what everyone else says, it's fine.
So I think I also hit that point where I had to like think about what I feel about things and I was really okay with it, but just like tired of telling everybody.
And there was a couple moments that really stood out to me from.
They were comments from men in my life that had, for the past like 10 years, been saying like you're too picky, like you need to, you need to like, lower your standards a little bit, you are difficult to deal with blah blah blah, right or like, because your standards are so high, or you are like too smart, or whatever, whatever right And I was.
It was after I turned 30.
This is a friend that I grew up with.
We were in the car, it was just us two.
And he, every time I saw him, he was just like, Maddie, like you self select out.
And like he has seen me through the years just kind of like say no to so many guys.
Right.
But we were in the car.
He's like married, has a beautiful wife, beautiful home, like a beautiful life.
But he told me like unprompted.
He said Maddie, I'm so proud of you for just knowing what you want and sticking to it, because I imagine it could not have been easy for like a few years.
It was so healing to hear that from a guy who has taken those steps, who also knows me and also sees what women have to go through.
I think
He had said, I've done all of the steps.
I've checked all the boxes on the list.
I've followed the timeline.
I have a great career.
I'm in higher education.
I have a wonderful spouse.
I have good family.
I have a home, which not many people get to say these days.
And when I sit back and wonder, was it all worth it?
I mean, I wouldn't replace any of it.
I would not trade my life for any of it.
But there's other paths that are possible.
So it was really nice to hear that and kind of affirm that OK, I'm fighting this fight for a reason.
Similarly, there was a comment from my brother, who I'm a little salty about this one, but basically he said one of his good friends had said I don't know if I want to get married because I'm really really genuinely happy with my life.
And I think when he said that, my brother really understood and felt that way.
And that's what I had been telling him for a while.
Oh, but someone else said it.
Someone else said it.
And then so when I said, that's like how I feel too.
He was like, oh, okay, I get it now.
Now that another man has said it.
But still, he gets to understand, dude, that's important.
Yeah, yeah.
That's most important.
But having external comments to say, even though they were previously criticizing you for the decisions that you're making, was quite encouraging.
And I never thought I would hear those words from either of those people.
So cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was really, it was really healing.
Um, and you'd arrived to that on your own already.
Yes.
And we're so solid in it.
But to then have external forces also come in alignment with you in that and actually understand was validating.
You didn't need them to make you feel secure, but it's like the icing on the cupcake.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
And it's good because It's like a different voice, because when you're talking with your girlfriends who are going through similar things, which are now dwindling in number,
We're still here.
We will be here.
Don't worry.
We can be kind of an echo chamber to each other, but also we're the only ones that get it.
And so for someone who has taken a completely different life road, to acknowledge that is quite nice.
Have you guys had any similar comments from outside people that are married, that are guys or I don't know, just different perspectives from about you being single in your late 20s, early 30s?
Yeah, I think I actually had a conversation with a friend not too long ago.
And so I was telling her about like this guy I was interested in.
And she said completely unprompted, And she's been married for like six years, I think.
And she has a beautiful girl.
She was just like, I love my husband.
I love my child.
I wouldn't trade them for the world.
But I wish I messed around a lot more when I was single.
So Emily, just do whatever you want, right?
And boy, she took that assignment.
She was like, I give you my blessing.
She's just like, my marriage is great.
Having a kid is great, but this isn't the only path.
And she was like, I wish I dated more people before my husband.
They got married when she was 24, so she's fairly young.
I don't even think she's 30 yet.
Wow.
Yeah, but she was like advice from a married woman go have fun while you still can, because once you get married, this is your man forever yeah.
So i was like, oh okay, don't mind if i do, don't mind if i do see you tomorrow yeah.
So even just like hearing hearing that i think a lot of us expect for married women to be like this is so much better than when i was single, and for a lot of women it is, which good for them.
But if some are being honest, maybe it's not, and maybe i hear a lot of married women saying how much they like, envy the single life and like they wish they could go back.
Yeah, or just they had, like I don't know, a separate timeline on, like a different multiverse that they could just jump onto.
Of course, I think everyone's in their own stories.
They don't know what they want.
They don't know what alternative they would want, but they just they can see the things that other people's stories are living out, and they can see what's missing and then once again having to be content with what you have.
But it is encouraging.
There's this lady um, who is at my church and she's older and i think it's a different one.
It's like people around her age that are married, that are more similar peers to us, but she's one generation, so she's 10 years older than me and our kids are like seven to nine and And she was always like I love that you get to live your life so fully right now.
Go and live it.
It's similar to what your friend was saying.
And I think it also is different because I've seen her life and I've babysat her kids and whatnot and can see how much her mind is often because she's pouring out constantly for the little ones.
And so it's beautiful to have, I think, multi-generational communities.
I feel like we don't have that much of that now.
We often are in our like horizontal flat, like friend groups that look like us or maybe are in slightly different life stages.
But it was really refreshing for both her to hear all of my stories and like have a dose of that.
And then for me to like kind of pour out and be aunties to her little girls.
It was just really beautiful.
And I feel like multi-generational community structures don't really exist a lot in our society as it looks today, but are actually very beneficial and it helps you appreciate at least for me more what I have now, knowing like that phase will come later.
And then she was also just like, thank God, come watch my kids so I can go have date night.
And like have a break too and like be me outside of being mom.
So yeah, I think about that a lot too now with, like multi-generation, the value of that and how much that's missing.
There's so much wisdom that's lost in both directions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You guys, have you guys seen Inside Out?
I love inside out.
Bing bong.
Yeah.
They kind of represent bing bong.
They're just like, they'll go with you this far.
And then they're like, go.
Go live your life.
And you're just like, bye, bing bong.
I think like single life in your 30s it's so fun because you have money, but you still have like a child brain.
So you're like, I want this trinket.
Oh, I could buy it.
You have money and you have permission to be a child.
Because you are giving yourself permission, because you don't care what anyone else thinks.
Then you have confidence and experience in the world, so that you're not just going to fall off a cliff doing it either.
You can see danger coming and you're like have the judgment to know when to calculate, like okay, this is a fine risk to take, or like maybe i shouldn't do that whereas, like in your early 20s, you just like have no idea what you're doing period, but you have to act like you know what you're doing.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, the freedom is great right now.
Yeah, like planning trips, i'm like great, let's book it.
And then all my married friends were like let me go ask my husband.
But our schedules are going to be like that's how it will come, and I'm going to have to ask my husband.
Right now, I'm like, okay, you let me know.
Yeah.
If you're free or not.
Clutching your pearls.
Let me go ask my husband.
Let's see if we're going to travel.
Everyone has that guy that they would have married in their early 20s, that you would have been married now for many years, probably with some children.
Maybe would you marry them knowing what you know now.
When I was 21, I was in love with this 30 year old guy.
Nothing ever happened.
And I was like always mad that he never made a move.
Cause I was like very, very like, it was very apparent.
I made it very clear that I was into him, but he never, I saw this guy, right?
Yeah, yeah, you saw him.
I brought Maddie to church so she could see him.
He's so cute.
But he was 30 and, of course, good for him for not approaching me, because he's 30 and that's really weird.
I don't know, because I really liked him.
And I feel like if he did make a move, maybe I would have gotten married.
Maybe I would have married to him.
But I would know it's at the expense of everything that I wanted to do, and then I would just have to settle for this lifestyle.
I wouldn't settle for the guy, but I would settle for the lifestyle.
I don't know, because he never did it.
I don't know.
I thought he had morals.
But if I had the chance, I probably would have said yes, which is scary to think about.
Rejection is just a redirection.
It's so true.
How about you?
Nah.
Nah, man.
I really thought I was going to marry this guy during then.
You thought you were gonna marry them.
Yeah, and you would have.
But now, if you had to go back knowing what you know, now you're basically saying no well no, i didn't.
It's different knowing with 30 year old brain yeah, go back to 21, go back to 20, whatever 19 yeah yeah so no no, i would have left that relationship, like three years earlier oh, And then like fit in a couple more, you know.
I'm just saying.
Oh, I like that.
You have to make your friend proud.
Yeah, I have to make my friend proud.
I gotta make her proud.
Yeah, I don't regret the relationship, but And we were young, so Okay, what about some of the other ones?
Just kidding.
She's stirring the pot.
I feel like... I wanna know.
When we were 21, we were told that every, every date is a potential mate.
So, like dating was very intentional.
Ring my spring yeah, like every single boy you date, you're like this could be my husband.
So it was just like a lot of pressure and i wish I could go back to 21 knowing like oh, maybe this doesn't have to be as serious.
Date for marriage, they used to say.
Yeah.
I mean, they're still saying it.
Yeah, that's true.
Would you marry your 21-year-old boyfriend?
Your boyfriend when you were 21.
My 21-year-old boyfriend.
I think at the time I would have.
Knowing what you know now.
Knowing what I know now.
Go back to the time when he's like, Jen.
I want you to be my wife.
Be the mother of my children.
Okay, but I can't think of the person, because if I think of the person, then my answer might be different.
Think of the person.
They're included in this.
The thing is, I think I see the cost so much more clearly now.
So it's like the multiverse strands, right?
Like we love the multiverse concept right now in media.
And like I'm in my one strand right here sitting right now.
And I used to think that that other strand, the version of myself, would have been closer in proximity to like what I am now.
But I'm now seeing like I would have been a completely different person And I would have given so much and probably just fit into his world.
And you would have done so good at it.
And I would have probably been happy.
I really feel confident that I would have been happy and fulfilled, but there would be so many parts and dimensions of myself that would have just been dormant, probably for most of my life.
Never awakened.
So I mourn for that, if I were to have chosen that.
Strand, one which is current Jen, which is 30-plus-year-old Jen who has had time to discover herself and pour into her interests and passions.
She just got piercings.
I did?
She got two piercings.
Would I have a second piercing if I married this man?
Probably not.
I mourn your second hold.
I wouldn't have.
Yeah, really.
Who would that other Jen have been?
The one that got married?
The one that had kids?
I would have given so much.
I just know.
I would have... Lost yourself.
Yeah.
I can see it so clearly.
But you would be happy.
Or you would convince yourself you were happy.
Yeah.
I would be happy.
Yeah.
But the thing is like...
I would be happy not knowing what else it could be.
It's like you're eating fricking, like frozen hash browns, when you could be eating like McDonald's fries on the beach.
You know what I mean.
Instead of eating your frozen hash browns in suburbia.
From a plastic bag from Walmart.
Yeah.
No, really.
But I would've been like, these taste great.
I love them.
Because you don't know.
Because you wouldn't know anything else.
You just don't know.
Yeah.
It's like you can't, I wouldn't have like longed for something I wouldn't have ever known.
Yeah.
That's just like the cost of a decision.
And I also wouldn't have ever discovered the dormant parts of myself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's tragic to think about.
Because when you're in, when I was, when I'd be in one strand, I wouldn't know.
But now that I can zoom out and probably see it a little bit more clearly.
Like, oh my God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can see it more clearly.
So McDonald's on the beach right now.
All day.
Yeah.
Come home whenever I want to.
Do you guys still feel any residual pressure to get married from like parents?
From my ovaries.
From your internal, yeah, internal pressure.
I feel that.
I do.
Cause they say geriatric pregnancy is around like 35.
If you have your first kid at 35, that's a geriatric pregnancy and that's coming soon.
Geriatric means old.
And so like our eggs are getting dusty and like, I feel, I feel here.
I'm just like, if I do want a healthy kid, I gotta get on it.
I feel my ovary sacs expiring.
Yeah.
Like I really feel it yeah, and like there's like egg freezing and stuff, but like if your company doesn't pay for it, it's like really expensive.
Um yeah, so that's just biologically.
That's like something to think about.
That yeah, and i'm so bitter that men don't have to deal with that.
They can have kids when they're 95 and still it's not fair, I know.
I think about it most when people ask me, how many kids do you want?
I used to say, oh, I'd probably want like two or three.
Now I'm like, yo, whatever timeline we got.
If I get a kid, I get a kid.
Depends on when I get married.
Having a kid is a status symbol now.
Like I can afford this human.
Yeah.
Yeah, so there's that internal pressure.
There's also my mom.
External pressure.
My mom is like my only external pressure.
That you listen to.
I argue with her.
Cause of course she just wants me to be happy.
But at the same time, she's just like, you need a companion.
She says, she's like, Emily, you don't have the gift of singleness.
She's like, Emily, you can't be alone.
And I tried that because my mom knows me so well.
But I'm just like mom a man won't fix my problems.
If anything, he'll give me more problems.
But she's like, but it's character building.
I'm like, this life is character building.
I don't want this accelerated program.
It's something I still do hope for.
Of course, I still hope to get married.
It's still something I see in my timeline.
I just don't know where it's going to be.
Yeah.
It might be at 50.
I'm not opposed 100% to marriage at all.
Yeah.
But...
But it just, yeah, it's like, these are like, I need a dad.
And then my mom's like, you need a husband.
You need a companion.
Yeah.
Are you praying for him?
The thoughts and prayers.
Are you looking for him?
You should get on the apps.
I'm like, mother, the apps are just trash.
How do I even answer you?
Any external pressures?
Yeah.
If there are, I'm not listening to them.
They don't register.
Um well, there is a reality to and like it's necessary to acknowledge that.
I think life as a single woman can be really difficult at times, just because, like women are set back in society and so i know and can feel how much easier it would be to have like a life partner.
I could just like worry about so many less things in terms of like safety and like peace of mind and things like that and like- Car stuff.
Car, lifting, oh my God, lifting a heavy thing, please.
You had to drill holes into our- She is my man.
Walls for curtain rods the other day.
I was there with the drill and we were like, I don't even know what to do.
We must call Emily.
Emily reaches high things for me.
She lifts heavy things for me.
She drills holes for me.
She knows how to do car stuff.
Talk about hydraulics, you know, like, no, but.
My dad taught me.
Yeah.
But there are so many things that I know would make life.
Having a man would make so many life things easier.
Yeah.
It really would.
Yeah.
So that would be really nice.
But then as a result, in defiance, we are always just like, so we have a pact, right?
Like we will take care of each other, right?
Yeah.
And we have.
We have taken care of each other.
Like if we're sick, like people will bring soup.
We'll bring soup for each other.
We'll rub each other's heads.
We give each other massages all the time.
Every night.
Like last night, I gave her, wait.
A butt massage.
Yeah, I gave her a butt massage.
That sounds so wrong.
A glute massage.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Women taking care of each other.
Yeah.
It's so sweet.
It's really beautiful.
It's so sweet having like woman care and love.
Yes.
It's so nice.
I heard somewhere, and it's probably TikTok that when you're looking for a partner, you're actually looking for your parent.
Yeah.
Men are looking for a mom and women are looking for a dad.
A little Freudian.
But if I examine myself I'm like yeah yeah, I want someone kind of like my dad, like someone who knows me and laughs with me and knows my humor and protects me and tells me If you're out of money, just ask.
I'm out.
Yeah.
My wallet's empty.
Yeah.
Every time I go, my dad drops me off from the airport.
He hands me $300.
I'm like, yes.
That's so nice.
No, she pulled me aside the other day on our walk.
She goes, my dad didn't give me any money this time.
No, he gave me $30.
And I was like, wow, this is like 10% of what I usually get.
He dropped to zero.
He's always like, do you need cash?
He opens his wallet.
He's like, I'll give you $30.
And I was like, oh, thanks.
A man's love is different from a woman's love.
It's different.
Yeah.
Very practical, functional.
It's really simple and nice, you know?
It is simple and nice.
Yeah.
It's straightforward.
Yeah.
Being loved by a man is very different than being loved by a woman.
And it is nice.
Balance.
It's balance.
Yes.
Harmony.
I guess we need both.
The desire can exist while finding contentment in the present.
True contentment.
Yeah, yeah.
I love this life right now.
It's so good.
It's really great.
Yeah.
It's rare for people to experience, I think.
Yeah.
I just wish that when I was 25, I had someone to tell me like, yes, it's okay.
Like there is no timeline and you're going to be okay.
So just live your life.
And it gets better.
It gets so much better.
Yeah.
I think being single in your thirties, without real, true female friendships though, is probably much much much much, much different.
So I think, like cultivating deep, true friendship is essential for this season to be so sweet and for this time to be so sweet.
Cause otherwise it would be way, it would be unbearable.
I agree.
I agree.
Imagine having to do all of this and not having any of this.
So your advice to your 25-year-old self would be?
Build a female commune.
And then maybe date a little bit.
Maybe date a little bit.
Yeah.
Date casually.
Whatever.
It's so true.
Like having good, solid female friendships makes all the difference.
Because they'll make sure that you don't accept a man that sucks too.
It's true.
It's true.
If you have to hide a guy from the girl, you already know.
You already know he's not the one.
Guilty.
Guilty.
He reeks of poop.
And they can smell it.
This episode was obviously aimed toward our single girlies.
We love you.
We see you.
We are you.
And we're here for you.
And so, if you have any stories, if you have any questions, please leave a comment in the comment section.
Subscribe to us on YouTube.
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At the Hot Pursuit Pod.
Yeah, that. on Instagram and TikTok.
And wherever you get your podcasts.
We love you.
We see you.
If you have any woes that we didn't hit, drop them in the comments.
If you disagree with us and you think we're totally off base, let us know.
Share with us what your mom says.
Share with us what your church says.
Just kidding.
Don't.
You don't have to.
And thank you for joining us for this conversation.
And with that, Hot Pursuit out!
