Ted Audio Collective.
HBR presents... Hi everyone!
We're listening to After Hours.
I'm Yang Mi. I'm Felix.
And I'm Mi here. And you guys are looking well tonight.
Because there is a special reason.
Yes, because this is our wellness episode.
We decided to do a wellness episode because...
Is it because we're obsessed with wellness?
Because we've been stuck at home for so long?
Maybe. Well, in a way, there's nothing more important, right?
Yeah. But it was one of those things where I think most people had developed a routine on how they take care of themselves, and then that was disrupted.
And so then you had to proactively come up with a new routine.
Which is not easy to do, right?
Well, I was unsuccessful.
So, yeah, it's hard.
It's hard. But, you know, we've done food episodes in the past.
We've done entertainment episodes.
But it felt right to do a wellness episode.
Which is a way of saying we need some advice about how to be well.
Well, that's what I'm looking for.
So there's three things I'm really interested to know.
One is, what do you find most compelling, cool, interesting happening in the wellness space?
The second thing I'm going to ask you is, what are you more on the fence about in the wellness space?
And the third is, I want to know what you're down on in the wellness space.
All right. Can I just say that this corresponds roughly in my world of a fourth grader to a rose, a bud, and a thorn.
Which is a rose is something that's great.
A bud is something that you're hoping for that happened in your day.
And a thorn is the nasty thing that happened in your day.
So, Felix, you weren't here, but not too long ago.
I chastised Mehere for not being poetic enough because Rowie was on, and Rowie was being super poetic.
And so, look at Mehere with the rose, the bud, the thorn.
Yo, it's positively fixed period.
I know. Okay. What do you find cool, interesting, compelling, happening in this space?
Who wants to go first?
I think you should go first.
You go first. Oh, okay.
So, what I think is interesting is the fitness wars.
We've spoken about the rocket ship that is Peloton, which continued to grow like crazy during the pandemic.
But a couple of things happened along the way.
One of which was some severe supply chain problems.
They couldn't fulfill their orders, created for the first time negative word of mouth around the company.
They still have a huge amount of momentum, but it has changed the slope of that momentum.
And it's also changed a little bit the narrative around the brand.
And then more interestingly, it's given competitors a chance to get back in the game.
So, now NordicTrack has launched its bike, its SoulCycle, and so on.
So, now it is all out war.
And so, there are a couple of things that I find really fascinating.
One is, I'm wondering whether or not, like retail, fitness is going to end up becoming omnichannel.
In other words, if you're Peloton or if you're Mirror, what's your next move?
Do you begin to open physical studios and have to do both?
Meanwhile, if you're Equinox, do you launch an at -home product?
To succeed in this market, are you going to have to be omnichannel?
So, I'm just so fascinated.
The final point, by the way, I'll say, is that the speed with which this is happening, I think, is so remarkable.
And it's such a reflection of how quickly business moves now.
So, Peloton comes in with this thing that's pretty disruptive.
The competition has jumped in very quickly, and you kind of blink, and now we're in the middle of the fitness wars.
Yeah. And the two pieces that I love, the first that you mentioned is Peloton bought pre -core, right?
So, they had to buy an equipment manufacturer to solve supply chain problems.
And then the second piece of it is that they've evolved their offerings, as I understand it, young me, to have wellness, meditation, all kinds of things that are not device -specific, as I understand it.
So, things are happening in that space that are happening very quickly and super interesting.
I think that's a great call.
Another element that is so fascinating here on the one hand, as you point out, young me, companies are moving so fast, and then some other supply chain's problems stay with us forever.
So, even today, you know, more than a year into the pandemic, it's really hard to buy dumbbells.
Yes. So true. And if you can find them, they are ridiculously expensive.
So true. How can it be that a year is not good enough to fix the supply chain?
That is fascinating.
What is that about, Felix?
I have no idea. I don't actually know.
So, I understand, in the beginning, there was this issue that foundry capacity in the US was just insufficient.
But how can that be true?
14 months, 15 months.
Well, foundry capacity doesn't come online that quickly.
And maybe transport costs are so high for dumbbells.
So, one of the things that we know, of course, is that, because there's so much more shipping out of Asia, as opposed to from the United States to Asia, that the prices of containers and shipping costs, in general, have gone up dramatically.
And so, maybe, you would think the global supply chains should somehow kick in over time, but that really hasn't happened.
There was a point in time a few months into the lockdown where I had my entire family under one roof, and they decided they needed some weights.
And therefore began the longest saga, the search, for a rack of weights.
So, it was really quite the saga.
Okay, so that's mine.
So, I have an observation that I find fascinating.
So, imagine you run a spa, and then there's a global pandemic.
And as you know, most customers who go to spas, at least in the US, they get massages.
And all of a sudden, that seems like, oh my God, it seems tricky.
You spend a lot of time, typically in a small room, with a person, and the health risks are just quite considerable.
So, what's fascinating is there's a whole series of no -touch spas now.
Imagine you're being massaged, like, how does this work?
So, it's different services.
And the range of services is really fascinating.
So, it's anything from light therapy, IV drips in some spas.
There's something called hyperbaric chambers where you breathe in really pure oxygen, and the chamber is pressurized.
So, it's typically two or three times the pressure that you would typically have.
So, as you can imagine, customer pickup, how much demand, is a little unclear.
But the really fascinating part, of course, is that when you look at labor costs, basically non -existing.
And so, you might be able to run a spa on a much smaller group of customers, because you don't have what's usually one of the most significant expenses.
Felix, have you tried one of these, like, light therapy?
I mean, it's a light.
Light is dimming. And now it's brighter.
That's right. I mean, is the value proposition real?
So, I think the value proposition ranges from it's a really pleasant environment to be in.
And there, of course, you can imagine, you know, if you're...
It's the pandemic. Maybe you live in a really small apartment.
I think that's part of the market.
And then the other end of the market is really sort of pushing towards medical services.
So, I think both the oxygen, the hyperbaric chambers.
This used to be something that hospitals would offer to patients.
Or the IV drapes, obviously, is something that in medical settings you would see.
And I see sort of both of these.
One is sort of wellness toned down, just provide comfort in really pleasant spaces.
And then one is really pushing towards what do we know about the medical kinds of services that produce immediate wellness.
But I completely agree with you.
I think the jury is completely out.
But what I find fascinating is that in the face of really uncertain customer demand, you're sort of reinventing the model and the cost structure of those places.
And this might mean even if this is not like an amazing success, it might produce a whole range of sustainable businesses.
I think I'm most admiring of just the adaptability.
It's amazing, right?
I just love the idea that, you know, amidst all this craziness, there's innovation in the service delivery in a space where you would just never imagine it.
I also love the idea that there's this set of services that might migrate out of the hospital into the spa.
Like, I think that's actually a piece of the puzzle that is not so well understood.
Intimidating space.
Both of these are stories of adaptability.
So everything's adapting except for those weights.
Someone's going to write a good article about supply chain with dumbbells.
We've got to find out.
Okay, we're here. What about you?
Well, so this sounds so basic, but I've read two books recently that have just totally transfixed me.
One is by this guy named James Nestor, and one is by Michael Steven.
And it's all about breathing.
I think breathing is just spectacularly important for wellness and totally underappreciated.
So these two books really go into the science of it.
So the thing I love about breathing as a key to wellness is it's got deep philosophical, religious roots.
So like if you look into Hinduism or Daoism, breathing is core to what you think about as being wellness.
But now it turns out to have fantastic scientific evidence associated with as well.
And not just physiological evidence, but like neurobiological evidence about, for example, nasal breathing versus mouth breathing.
And it turns out nasal breathing is really, really, really important and really, really good for you.
And mouth breathing is complicated.
Similarly, belly breathing is really, really good for you and chest breathing is not.
And then on top of it, I guess the final thing about it is it's so easy and everywhere.
You know, you're breathing all the time and if you do it better, it has amazing impact on your life.
And so, for example, a lot of people breathe through their mouth much more than they should.
And I know we're always looking for quick fixes in wellness, you know, like, give me the thing I can do that'll make life better.
But breathing is literally something that we do all the time.
And many of us do it poorly.
And it actually can lead to a significant improvement in health outcomes and in quality of life.
So I have just fallen in love with breathing.
And these books are so good.
One is called Breath by James Nestor, and one is called Breathtaking by Michael Stephen.
The whole thing is magical.
So, for example, your lungs, they're the last organ to begin functioning.
Because you don't take a breath until you come out of the womb.
So every other organ is working, but it's the moment of birth when lungs actually start working.
It's all so magical and so fundamental and in a way so easy in the sense of you can change it and you can make it better.
So I love breathing as like the key to all wellness issues.
That's my rose here.
And at the same time, it's quite interesting that it's so fundamental.
It's so important. And so you would think through evolution you would do it right.
And it would somehow be innate.
And that of course is not true, which I find really interesting also.
So many other things that are really important for life, you just do and you don't have to think about it.
But breathing is not like that.
And sometimes as you get older, it gets harder and you start to do things worse and turns out.
Like you do a little bit more mouth breathing, a little more chest breathing.
Anyway, so altogether I think breathing is the way forward in wellness.
And I don't mean to link every of our topics to the tuba, but the first thing that you learn when you learn how to play the tuba is belly breathing is really important.
Yeah, that's right actually.
I'm with you on the tuba, Felix.
When we started out on our careers and we had to do more public speaking and I would get nervous, I just remember so distinctly and I still do this sometime.
It's just telling myself to breathe, just breathe, breathe, breathe.
And it making a real significant difference.
And I'm really struck by what you said about how it's these simple things that we sort of forget how to do.
It's like forgetting how to walk or something.
But as you get older you realize that rediscovering these fundamental things can actually be quite restorative.
Yeah, so breathing, there you go.
That's my rose. Super nice.
Before we move to the next topic, I think we should take a deep breath.
Indeed. In fact, I think we should take a break.
Okay, in the fitness space.
Is there something you see out there that you're on the fence about, that you have your doubts about, or that you're confused by?
You're still trying to figure out.
Mihir, what do you have?
I want to talk about bone broth.
I just don't know how to think about this.
So when I was growing up, there was bouillon cubes.
Yes. Super cheap, nor's made them, and you had a little cube and you put it in, and that was it.
It was like probably cost per serving was maybe like a nickel.
Okay, so where are we now?
Now we're in a world of bone broth.
Now, what is bone broth?
Bone broth is cups of broth that are sold.
For example, there's a nice kind of startup that is delivering these and selling them broadly called Brodo.
And it's six bucks for like 10 ounces of broth.
And so the question is, is this like the height of crazy bourgeois late capitalism where a cup of broth costs you $6?
Or is this brilliant?
Because bone marrow is thought to have very important restorative qualities.
So in the course of my lifetime, we've gone from bouillon cubes to $6 a cup of bone broth.
And I'm just confused.
I just don't know how to think about this.
I just don't know if it's like fantastic or kind of just crazy.
Well, here, there's one way to find out.
You need to go on a three day bone broth only diet.
Well, I have to tell you, I've tried bone broth.
I don't know how to say this.
It's very potent. So it actually hits you pretty hard, like digestively.
It's actually a little tough to digest, I found.
But it was kind of invigorating.
So I just don't know how to think about bone broth.
Felix, educate him about bone broth.
You must have dishes where you start out boiling bones and then that broth somehow makes it into something else, no?
I don't really. Well, because it's not so meat centric in this home, but also bouillon cubes were just fine, right?
I mean, bouillon cubes were just fine, weren't they?
Yes, it's called progress.
Is it? But the cost per serving of a bouillon cube, it went from a nickel to $6.
Wait, so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation except for wisecracks.
But isn't there some salt element?
Isn't there a bunch of unhealthy things?
About bouillon cubes?
OK, fair enough. But $6 for like a 10 ounce serving of bone broth?
It's called progress.
OK, I'm going to have to reconsider.
OK. So the really interesting thing is when you go to the butcher and you ask for bones to make your own bone broth, the bones will be free.
Is that because they're not allowed to charge?
No, there's not much demand.
So are you telling me you're making your own bone broth?
Are you kidding me?
No. Oh my God. Well, you listen to tuba music.
You got Reddit going on and you're going to the butcher.
You can make it in really big batches and then you can freeze it.
And you can send it over to your friends.
Yes, I will send you some tomorrow.
You can make it in really big batches and then and then what?
Then what do you do?
Use it in all kinds of recipes.
So Chinese choke. OK, OK.
Just send me over some bone broth, will you?
And I'll try that. OK.
OK. All right. Felix, what do you have?
What do you want the fence about?
I'm on the fence in the sense that I don't really know how it will turn out eventually is the variety of classes that get offered now online really has exploded.
If you were a member in a big city gym or a big chain, they always had a very nice portfolio of classes.
Say you really like Nia or you really like to hold a wooden sword and work out with a wooden sword.
Like all of these things.
And now, of course, all of that is accessible everywhere.
He's thinking a wooden sword.
Who wants to do this?
It's actually really hard.
I tried once and I gave up after a relatively short period of time.
You were too tired.
It really feels like democratizing just a big array of activities.
Of course, what I don't know is, is it going to snap back, say post pandemic?
Will everybody go back to the gym and then these online courses will become small and unsustainable?
Or do we really see this really beautiful variety right now that will persist?
And the second closely related question is, it shifts the balance of power in interesting ways between personal trainers and the gyms.
The gyms really were mostly a platform often charging the personal trainers to work there.
And now if you're good at it, you can create a following online.
And so a job that seemed precarious now seems like much more entrepreneurial.
You can do your own thing.
There's all of these amazing people who do really wonderful things online and how that will shake out.
I just don't know. But I think it's going to be really interesting to observe.
This phenomenon you're describing, I think is utterly fascinating, this personality driven fitness.
You have seen social influencers take over shopping, for example, and really come to play a big role in how we make decisions about what we buy.
But these fitness influencers now are so magnetic in their own way and have been able to build huge followings for themselves.
And the interesting thing to me, young me is, as somebody who knows nothing about going to a gym, it does strike me that going to a gym was not a great experience for a lot of people.
And it feels like the question hinges Felix on how good was that experience?
Was it kind of just an experience that we all did because we had to?
Or is it really a social experience that I liked?
But also, it makes you wonder how bad is any fitness experience if you only have that option.
Earlier, when I was wondering whether we're moving to omnichannel fitness, which means that you want to have that optionality and just how we have begun to self segment how we shop.
So sometimes we buy things online.
Sometimes we like to go to the store.
Maybe some of the more full service fitness providers are going to begin to create a more multi -dimensional experience that people can access in lots and lots of different ways.
And so imagine you log on and you do it, but sometimes you want to go and do the live thing and you want to be in the room.
Right. Yeah. And it's like going to a live show or something.
And that's really fun.
And so you can imagine just sort of a mix and match.
And different formats also.
One of the segments that is really growing quickly is what they call snackable workouts, like super short.
Right. Because you know, you go to the gym, it's a little bit of effort, you have a commute, you have to travel there.
So then just doing something for seven and a half minutes doesn't really make all that much sense.
But if you're at home anyway and, you know, you work from home, you're in your pajamas all day long, seven and a half minutes might be just the right timeframe.
If they can get it down to two and a half minutes, then I'm waiting until someone targets me.
The two and a half minute workout for young me.
So young me, do you have something you're unsure about?
Okay. I'm going to talk about this one even though I hope it doesn't get me in trouble.
So I want to be really clear about what I am sure about and what I'm not sure about.
Okay. So I want to talk about the legalization of marijuana.
So here's what I believe.
A hundred percent marijuana should not be criminalized.
It should absolutely be socially acceptable.
I want there to be no ambiguity about that.
On the medical use side, on the mental health benefits side, I have no reservations.
I'm completely supportive.
And even on the recreational use side, I totally recognize the relaxation benefits, the recreational benefits.
And I definitely recognize the systemic inequality associated with the criminalization of marijuana and how terrible that is and the incarceration piece, how abominable all of that stuff is.
So I am in favor of legalization.
But here comes the butt feeling.
Yes. However, I'm just worried because for alcohol, which is the closest comparison, we sort of know how much is too much, what it means to drink responsibly.
I mean, we have decades of understanding about that, common understanding.
And with marijuana, we're not there yet.
And so if I get in an Uber, there's no way to reliably test the driver for cannabis immediately.
You can detect it in your system days later, but not immediately.
And so I just wish we had some way to establish measures of how much is too much.
The products that are now becoming available are just wildly variable in terms of strength, quality, and the kind of effect it has on your body.
We need better labeling.
We need more information.
Now, I know I sound so prudish and out of touch.
So again, I'm in favor of legalization.
But I think if we're going to legalize it and we're going to commercialize it, then we should commercialize it in a way that makes transparent to the consumer what it is they're buying.
And right now, that's the part that makes me a little bit nervous about it.
What's interesting to me, and in part, this might just be because I don't know the market that well, but I haven't really seen successful branding efforts.
I always think if a new consumer product comes on and you think, oh my God, quality is highly variable, it comes in very different forms, and the forms may contain much more or much less.
I would think the brands can bridge so many of these things in an elegant way that I just trust a particular producer, and I know they're doing the right thing, and they're watching out for me.
And here, I don't know why this is, but I haven't really seen brands develop around Mariana.
I think the brands that are most likely to be good at that are really sort of tiptoeing into the space, and they're being a little bit careful about rushing in too quickly.
And as a result, I think what you're seeing is a lot of homegrown brands, smaller brands, that are less sophisticated in how they think about some of this.
Yeah. But you know, I got to tell you, young me, I share your ambivalence.
And of course, the problem is you feel like such an old, fuddy duddy when you acknowledge that ambivalence.
Which we are. Yeah.
But I think part of the problem is brand problem, Felix.
You know, I can brand solve this, right?
But I think my, I guess, ambivalence is more, and I agree with everything you said at the top, right?
But I think my ambivalence is more about long run use and just trying to understand how it changes life trajectories.
And frankly, it's stuff we struggle with with alcohol, too.
Yeah, absolutely. It's not as if it's absent from alcohol discussions.
But there's no question, I share everything you said about legalization, and yet there is this slight hesitation about it.
And I'm not sure what that reflects.
But I do have this sense that it is altering some kind of a life trajectory in a way that could be okay and may not be okay.
I mean, my intuition is that it's like alcohol in the sense that used in moderation, it's probably okay.
Yeah. And used excessively, then it might have some negative effects.
But with alcohol, we know what excessive is, to the point where we have FDA guidelines on how many drinks a day you should responsibly have.
Right. And here you don't.
But to what extent do you think this just mostly reflects familiarity?
So we know the cost of alcoholism in the United States is roughly 250 billion dollars a year if you take it all together.
That's about two bucks a drink.
Wow. So it's really high.
It's not innocent at all.
Yeah. But we've just gotten used to it, right?
Just we've gotten used to car accidents.
And in a way - That's a great point.
I'm curious whether our hesitation around new drugs mostly reflects just we know what alcohol is.
Yeah. But the fact is many people find it really difficult to cope with alcohol.
And we had, when you think about episodes like the prohibition, we had really dramatic experimentation around getting control of something that really influences society and influences lives every day.
Yeah, that does make me feel better.
I think you're right about the familiarity piece.
And some of this we just have to figure out as we go along.
I mean, clearly the state of play was unacceptable.
Right. The criminalization of marijuana.
The incarceration associated with it.
That state of play completely unacceptable.
And so directionally I think this is right.
And maybe this is one of those things where societally we just have to do it.
We have to normalize it a little bit.
Then you start to see companies come in and commercialize this in the way that all consumer products eventually end up getting commercialized in a more transparent way.
And concomitant with that, we'll see a deeper understanding of what the longer term effects are.
We'll start to see studies emerge.
And we'll just have more shared collective understanding of what constitutes responsible consumption and what goes beyond that.
Because there's some sense in which we don't feel like we know enough.
But we will. We're going to learn that.
Yeah. Felix made me feel better actually.
Not you, me, here, Felix.
Okay. It's late, guys.
I'm sorry. I'm getting a little punchy over here.
Okay. Before we close this out, I did have to ask you though, is there anything in this wellness space that you're sort of down on?
So I have something I'm unequivocally down on.
Okay. Let's hear it.
Which is all things associated with celebrity wellness.
I think everything associated with celebrity wellness is bad.
Okay. So I'm going to try to make the case, which is, so we've seen like this remarkable industry of celebrity wellness grow up.
We have. And obviously it started with Gwyneth Paltrow and Goop, and it's every celebrity that you can imagine, including minor celebrities like Josh Brolin, have wellness lines now.
He does? Josh Brolin?
Wait, isn't he Thanos in the Marvel movie?
Okay. That my intent was not to make you a fan of Josh Brolin's celebrity wellness regime.
I think there's something about this that is deeply corrupt.
Now, on the one hand, you might say, well, what's the harm in having people with celebrity spread their views about wellness?
And that's all good.
And maybe some people will be doing things they wouldn't do otherwise.
I think the reality is most of the advice that comes out of celebrity wellness is deeply ill -informed and is of the kind of completely quackish type.
Moreover, I think there's something fundamentally complicated about a celebrity like Elle McPherson, who has capitalized on body image in very destructive ways to then go around promoting wellness.
I think it's really complicated.
So I am so down on, A, the just sheer amount of misinformation about wellness that's being propagated by celebrities.
And then, two, this inherent contradiction between the superficiality that has been the foundation of their career and the actual recipes for wellness.
So I know I'm casting out the entire industry, but I just feel like there's something that's deeply problematic about that industry.
What about athletes?
Fair enough. So, for example, if Serena, Serena's starting to get into, mostly it's been clothing and so on, but you could easily imagine Serena starting to move into the wellness space.
I'd be more interested in that.
And, like, I don't have any problem with people monetizing their brand, but in a way that borders on things that are not well proven.
I mean, the whole problem in the wellness space generally, young me, in my mind, is the propagation of things that are basically quackery, right?
Like, you know, it's just stuff that isn't really true, scientifically proven that's being sold to people.
And I feel like celebrities tend to come in on that angle.
So I am unequivocally down on celebrity wellness.
That's a good one. So I was really down on goat yoga.
Goat yoga. But then I think it actually died.
It was a thing like maybe two, three years ago where you would do yoga with goats.
And fortunately, some market trends prove unsustainable.
So I wanted to mention a second thing.
And maybe down is not exactly the right expression.
I'm a little confused about this thing called intuitive eating.
Intuitive eating is, so you reject diets.
You honor the fact that sometimes you feel hungry and then you should eat.
You make sure that you pay attention to when you feel full and then you should stop eating.
And all of that makes total sense to me.
It's in two minutes.
And it sounds like what we have always done.
And what I'm confused about is why is there certification?
Why are there books?
Why is it that I can take classes in intuitive eating?
That does not seem like a very good trend.
But you're raising such an important issue, which is so many of these lessons about wellness are kind of homespun.
And you wonder why are we reading books about intuitive eating is your point, right?
And it is kind of crazy, right?
That one's particularly funny.
Fair enough. So before we run out of time, I'm going to do one more real quick that I'm a little bit down on.
And that is, you know how it is that when a society gets richer and richer, people just start to want more and more.
They consume more stuff, better stuff, fancier stuff.
And you end up with lots of conspicuous consumption.
I have decided that when a society gets really wealthy, the ultimate sign that you have reached this elevated state of individual higher consciousness is a kind of conspicuous deprivation.
And the point at which I start to get very uncomfortable and I start to have negative feelings is when the price point of this goes up, up, up.
So when you were talking about the bone broth, bone broth is so cool.
But when you end up paying an exorbitant price for a little bit of bromo, that's when it starts to really.
And so I'm talking about the most luxurious austerity, like the spa in the most barren surroundings.
And it's like the most sumptuous misery possible.
And it's today I am only eating herbs that I have salvaged from the compost with a little balsamic that was barrel aged for twenty five years.
I actually find myself falling victim to this sometimes.
So I am a hypocrite because sometimes I pay the price for the bone broth or whatever it is.
And then I'm thinking, this is ridiculous.
And so when I'm up in Vermont, you know, look at this tiny block of moldy cheese I bought at the local store for a ridiculous price.
It's so exquisitely offensive to the taste buds.
Isn't it amazing? It's like this is to stop.
I made you guys laugh.
Look at Felix. He left the cheese except.
It's so true. It was store aged for many years because we couldn't find the customer who wanted to buy the cheese.
I have eaten cheese that is so, so offensive.
I love that one because first off, I kind of like deprivation.
Like there's something about deprivation that seems right to me.
Yeah, but actual deprivation.
Right. But like fasting or kind of like more aesthetic versions of it.
But you're putting your finger on something deep, I think, which is.
It's like deprivation, but it's like luxurious.
And that's the crazy part.
It's the balsamic part of it.
That's the problem.
Yeah, exactly. If you were just eating the herbs, that's great.
Right. That's what we call upcycling food now, right?
Yeah. That part is kind of cool, though.
I have to say. Like I said, it's a fine line.
It's a fine line. I mean, what I think is acceptable and what I find unacceptable.
Just leave out the balsamic vinegar.
And you'll be fine.
OK. OK, picks. So for picks, I want to know your personal wellness secret or personal wellness hack.
So during the pandemic, one of the things that I realized early on is it's nice to be home and it's nice to not have to commute.
But there's a monotony to the days, like every day felt a little bit the same.
And in that period of time, I really discovered that getting outside and just getting some physical activity, it doesn't even really matter what it is.
It has such a big effect on my well -being.
And then I was a little unlucky in that my bicycle got stolen sometime in late October.
And of course, right now, this is another supply chain vehicle.
You cannot buy. I mean, you can spend thousands and thousands of dollars, but if you want like a regular bicycle type that I would buy, it's basically unavailable.
And so I had like these two experiences where as a result of some external influence, all of a sudden I had much less physical activity in my life than I would typically have.
And it just made me realize how absolutely critical, how important that is.
If I can't get physical activity of some sort, I'm just not really myself.
So you feel like if I were living with you at the time, I said, hey, I'll get you moving.
Here's some furniture that needs rearranging.
I would get you up.
It's the breathing really hard, I think is part of it.
It depends a little bit how heavy your furniture is.
I thought that might do it.
We would go into rearranging every day.
No, but I could do that.
No, move it over here.
No, move it over here.
Okay, so yours is movement.
Mine is around sleep.
So I am someone who doesn't sleep a lot and I never have.
And so I have now tried to really dig deep into understanding what it is that improves the quality of my sleep.
So I use a sleep monitor.
I wear it on my wrist.
I think we've talked about it before, which gives you really detailed information about the kind of sleep you're getting, the length of your sleep cycles, and so on.
And then what I've been doing is I have been tracking what happens when it's good or what happens when it's bad.
So one of the things I've learned, for example, is that when I listen to music right before I go to bed, it actually degrades the quality of my sleep.
And it's really fascinating.
Why do you think that is?
I don't know. It gets my pulse going or I don't know what it is.
Well, but you got to stop with the Metallica.
Yeah, the heavy metal.
Yeah, exactly. There's certain kinds of reading that are not good, but other kinds that are good.
I've learned so much.
And then to circle back to the breathing thing, if I spend even 10 minutes before I go to sleep, just focused on breathing, it improves the quality of that sleep.
It's really something.
That's great. So my recommendation is to study your sleep.
What about you, Mihir?
Well, I'm just thinking that wouldn't it be great if there was a way to incorporate Felix's emphasis on exercise, your emphasis on sleep and our discussion of kind of deprivation.
Like if there was a little formula.
Oh, no. Felix. I feel worse.
He's going to do his 7 -18 -4 thing or whatever.
No, no, no. 15 magic numbers.
It's 5 -8 -12. It's so easy to remember.
And I'm on to something big here.
And so I feel like the more I repeat it, the more likely it is that I'll be able to get my trademark.
He's going to write a book.
A smithy stack. Because some stacks can become 5 -8 -12.
In his newsletter, you're going to have to hear endlessly about this.
Just as a reminder, the key to a good life is five miles a day of walking eight hours of sleep at night and 12 hours of fasting at some point during the course of the day.
And it's not rock -solid.
Like I do 6 -6 -11 or whatever it turns out to be in a given day.
but I'm constantly keeping it in my head as something to kind of measure and I don't measure a lot of other things but I am the kind of guy who can just remember three numbers and who can ask myself at the end of the day how am I doing on those three things so I'm just gonna keep pushing 5a12 until
I get the book deal.
Can I ask about the five miles?
That seems so far, right?
Oh it's so easy I've do six or seven.
It's in one piece? No no no that's the key I go out once early in the morning once in the middle of the day and once late at night it's basically three two mile walks and you do calls on those walks and you enjoy nature on those walks.
It's difficult in the depth of winter I confess but once you go out there it feels fantastic for the reasons you said Felix which is you know you do it at quite a clip and you start to get your heart rate up a little bit and it's fantastic.
What if you just can't sleep for eight hours?
Well and you're right young me I've been looking into this which is some people just don't sleep eight and we shouldn't fetishize eight hours as being like the right number.
Many people don't need eight but I think in general people are not getting enough sleep so I think I average maybe six and a half seven seven and a half but the nights when I get eight they feel pretty great so I think it's a goal that's the most ambitious one I think for most of us.
Okay so look out for Mehere's new substag called 5a12.
He's gonna be soliciting subscriptions and every day you need to do it.
5a12. One year is only $58 .12.
Exactly. And he'll report out on his metric every day you guys can share stories.
It's gonna be big. It's gonna be huge.
Alright, thanks everyone for listening.
This is After Hours in the HBR Podcast Network.
Thanks for watching.
