Oikos presents 15 Seconds of Strength.
Here we go, Steve's got a trunk full of groceries and no one to help him.
Oh, that's tough, Jim.
Looks like a five -trip load at least. He grabs the first bag, the second.
Bob, it looks like he's trying to do it on one trip.
He shimmies the door open, steps over the dog, oh, and he stumbles.
Oh, right into the kitchen without missing a beat.
Jim, now that's a man who eats his protein -packed Oikos.
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We believe health is the foundation that unlocks freedom, the freedom to live fully, to be an asset and not a burden, and to chase what truly matters.
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Welcome to The Chase.
Hello, welcome back to the show.
here as always with Ben, joined this time around by a friend of the show, Marcus Wilson.
Marcus is the co -founder of Noble.
Marcus, I looked it up.
The last time we had you on the show was July of 2019, and I don't know why it's taken us so long to have you back, but welcome.
Thank you for having me.
I really, really appreciate it.
And it's fun to be on the show with you guys because I do listen to the podcast all the time.
So I'm excited to participate in it again.
Glad we dragged you into this side of the production.
We are going to talk about so Ben just happened to bring up the fact that you guys were chatting and hanging out.
And I think working out together at least once a week.
I don't know, you guys can tell me what how frequently you see each other at this point.
But he was telling me you guys were hanging out and you guys were having some cool conversations, specifically conversations around discipline.
And I thought, let's let's do that.
Let's have a conversation with Marcus around discipline.
And that's what what we're going to do today.
Specifically, I've had this idea.
And I had the idea a couple months ago of a quote unquote disciplined diet.
Better said to putting I had the idea of putting myself on a disciplined diet.
And I had this idea around January, February, because I really felt like I was I was floundering a little bit, I felt like I was all unmoored.
And I didn't really know where to focus or what I was focused on.
And so I just had this this concept.
And I jotted it down, and I played with some ideas, but it hasn't really gone too much further than just that kind of that idea of putting yourself on a disciplined diet.
And so when Ben told me you guys were hanging out and that you were really interested in, and, and thinking about, or you think about discipline a lot, Marcus, I thought, okay, let's use this as an excuse to flesh out this idea of a disciplined diet.
Cool. Absolutely. All right.
I'm going to little, little context as to what I mean by disciplined diet.
I'm going to give you a working definition.
We're gonna to talk about discipline, and then we're just going to have some fun with this conversation.
So here's a working definition that we have that I'd love to play with throughout the conversation here.
A disciplined diet is a deliberate, structured approach to building self -discipline by consciously selecting and practicing actions, habits, and challenges that promote growth and character while limiting behaviors that undermine progress or foster comfort seeking.
It is about feeding yourself the right kinds of challenges and routines in the right amounts with the intention of developing inner strength and resilience, much like a healthy food diet builds physical health.
So that is the working definition that we've got for a disciplined diet.
Before we get into it, Marcus, I would love high level thoughts around discipline, how you think about discipline, how discipline shows up in your life.
And let's start there.
Well, for me, one, I just love talking about this.
And so one of the things that Ben and I I get together fairly regularly now?
And part of that is around, you know, one of the things I think a lot about is who do I want to be?
Right. And, and there's a Epictetus quote that I love, which is first, um, first decide who you will be, then do what you must something along those lines.
Um, but that comes down to not only the discipline in I've applied that certainly physically, um, historically for me, it's been very easy to figure that out physically because there's such clear protocols around if you want to run faster jump higher be better physically fitter bigger muscles here's what you do but on the mental and emotional side that's been something that has been a little bit more challenging for me to figure out so mentally the thing that i've come i've gravitated to is around the discipline building discipline building willpower is like like intentionally doing hard things
to develop that skill kind of like you would with muscles.
But then there's also the emotional side, which is really, really challenging to figure out.
And so I've kind of come to this place that it's like, I think of it more as like soil.
You can plant seeds, you can water it, you can do the things that you need to do, but you can't make things grow.
And so within that context, it's actually one of the reasons Ben and I get together.
And And it's such an important thing for me to spend time with people who make me better, people who I want to spend time with because it helps me become the person I want to be.
And so for me, Ben's one of those people.
And so when we get together, whether it's talking about physical training, any of those things, it helps me become a better person.
And so, we've started to, and Ben, I'm very curious if you've kind of had the same experience, like, over the years, we've talked a lot more about training.
But now we talk about other things, we talk about the discipline side, we talk about, you know, what it means to be mentally better, emotionally better, and relationships for me are a part of that fertile soil.
And so leaning into that is something that's been really, really great.
I went to CT &E yesterday.
We're recording this the day after Memorial Day.
And I was on a plane on Sunday and thinking about how great it would be to go to MRF at CT &E.
So I sent Ben, and I was on the fence a little bit.
I'm like, I don't know what time I'm going to land, all these things.
But I had enough discipline in the moment, and Ben and I talked about this yesterday, to send him the text saying, are you going to be at CT &E, thinking about dropping in.
And I knew that if once I sent that text that Ben responded, then I would have to go, right?
And so it was just like that momentary discipline to push me to go there.
And so a lot of the thoughts I've been having around discipline is like I used to have this perspective of discipline was this thing that you've got to have at all times.
And I've started to come to this appreciation and understanding that there's moments of discipline.
If you make a really good choice in a moment, it makes it easier down the road.
If you're at the grocery store and walking down an aisle and you see Cheetos, having the discipline to not put those in your basket.
And then you don't have to deal with it at home because it's just not there.
And so there's some of these things that have just been really, I've started to appreciate around the subtle moments where you can be disciplined that make it a lot easier more broadly.
it's it's it's so good that um i think that yeah that idea of all you need is just enough right you don't need it it's not like i am a forever and always and 24 7 and i'm super regimented and disciplined it's just the few small decisions at the right time right absolutely it's it's it that's what i think uh you know when Marcus says being intentional to do the hard things you're kind of we talked about this yesterday but that text he sent while on the plane was like all I need is enough discipline courage bravery conviction intention action to send a text and the future self doesn't need to be
able to say whether to do MRF or not because the future self might be so tired from the plane ride.
So you're kind of like doing these little actions now that are setting yourself up down the road to make the bigger ones.
The Cheetos and the shopping aisles are such a great example because all you need is a little bit then.
Just a little bit then.
You don't even necessarily want the Cheetos right then.
You just kind of get it for maybe later on I'll want them.
it's an easier decision when you're shopping as long as you follow the first rule of shopping which is never go grocery shopping when you're hungry if you do that then you don't have to deal with things later on you're setting i think a big part of discipline that people miss is this act of like setting yourself up for success you know putting your running shoes out the night before like surrounding yourself with which i love that mark has kind of started the conversation off with that, surrounding yourself with the right people.
So Marcus and I have been getting together.
We get together, you know, pretty close to every, you know, once a week and we spend, it's been Fridays.
We spend four or five hours together, Friday mornings.
We'll work out, then we'll chat.
And what I think is really cool is this idea that, you know, we talked about this a little bit as well, um, about myself being a lot more intentional of surrounding myself with strong like -minded men, um, which I, I think is, um, again, something that if we're not intentional with, um, and I don't, I don't mean that in terms of like um try to push out the women out of our lives but you know i'm i'm married to my wife and i see i work with my wife and i train my wife um i i i think that what the thing that's missing for me a big part of it was this um friendship component this peer -to -peer and i
i'm lucky Lucky enough too with Marcus plays a few different roles for me, friend, but also he's farther along professionally than I am.
So he also plays this mentor role for me as well.
So I think we have this kind of nice symbiotic where I can kind of play the trainer role for him a little bit and he plays the business mentor role for me.
and then we get this opportunity to work on the spiritual, emotional, and the mental together.
And we talk a lot about stuff that has nothing to do with business or training.
Usually the first, if we're together for four or five hours, it'll be an hour and a half of training.
Then it's an hour and a half of chatting, just shooting it, like whatever's going on in our lives.
and then you know the last hour so will be business related or something like that mm -hmm yeah it's interesting because and this isn't necessarily on the discipline side but the Ben's point you with with men it's like we spend so much of our time focused on family career you know and then there's this whole concept around needing to be strong and tough and all of these things but the thing that you don't really hear about or in most so many Men from my perspective are reluctant to be as vulnerable with each other and so it's one of these things where I've got you know a handful of really close
friends who I can just Be myself, I don't need to worry about kind of what thoughts, you know or Perceptions they may have of me because they they know me and if I've got times where I'm struggling with something than just sharing that and what i found way more um often than not is everybody's struggling with something you know everybody is struggling with something mentally and emotionally and this is one of those things where it's like again i don't think that it's you know my experience with the physical side of things and what physical strength and physical health is you know i've been a lifelong
athlete. So that's always been something I've known.
But it's the mental and the emotional side, really kind of spending time, really reflecting on that.
That's where like breathwork and meditation and Ben and I've talked quite a bit about this and a really good friend of ours, Amit, who's taught us both breathwork and meditation.
And it's been something over the last several years.
And I started a real meaningful practice actually back in 2019.
I think the last last time I was on this podcast is where I really got into it.
And it's been one of the most consistent things I've done over the last six years or so.
And it's really helped me kind of get in touch with myself, understand emotions and thoughts and not be so reactive to those.
And also helped me become much more comfortable being vulnerable because it also is like it, it's mattering less and less.
My goal is for it to not matter at all what anyone else thinks about me.
And that's a lofty goal, but I'm better this year than I was last year, and I'm not as good as I will be next year.
And so these are the things that I kind of keep working on and paying attention to and trying to put those things into practice in my life and putting those things out into the world.
When you say a breath work and a meditation practice, Just share with us what that, what that looks like.
Because this is, if we're talking about discipline, you've been doing that regularly, as regularly as anything else you've done for the last six years.
That's a lot. What is, what is, what does that practice look like?
Yeah. So I guess where it all started was me really thinking about, you know, back to the first, you know, decide who you want to be.
And one of the things for me is wanting to be someone who is grounded, wanting to be someone who was not controlled by my emotions that that recognized them appreciated them and then thoughtfully made decisions around things but but when i first got into breathwork and meditation it was just about stress management it was an entrepreneur you know in 2019 it was like four years after noblehood launched dealing with just all sorts of kind of crazy stress and And what I wanted to be better at was just when hard things hit me to be able to not overreact.
And so it's one of those things where I was just like I started this practice of meditation before I met Amit.
That was just headspace.
And, you know, I had a year plus where I meditated every single day.
I did literally every meditation on headspace with the exception of meditations that were for like pregnant women.
and um uh and i just was like leaning into it and then that's when i met amit who then kind of opened doors beyond that and and i went from knowing i needed to just calm my mind when stress was around to recognizing there was a bigger unlock there and so now each morning i I would say probably five to six days a week in the mornings I do a kind of a practice that Amit gave me was about a 15 minutes of breath work.
So that's just controlled breathing.
It starts with literally, you know, inhaling for six seconds, holding for six seconds, exhaling for 12.
And I'll do that for 10 breaths or a few minutes.
and then it goes through other things that are around exercises for the diaphragm, other types of breathing that really kind of help you improve the way you breathe and then also connecting with yourself.
And then I end with like a five -minute meditation where it's just like sitting quietly and kind of processing and letting things go.
And sometimes I'll make that a little bit more, Sometimes I'll make it a little bit less.
I've started doing more yoga.
Yoga used to be for me about mobility, as Ben can absolutely attest to.
I have very, very, very little mobility, but I've been working on that.
But the thing that yoga now is more about connecting with myself.
the mobility piece of it is a, um, is a by -product.
Um, but really kind of being focused throughout that entire process and, and mindfulness has just been really, really good for me.
When you're doing, yeah, when you're doing the, the, um, when you're doing the 12 seconds in six seconds out and you're doing the five minutes of meditation at the end, do you have a timer?
Do you have a clock?
Like, like, so like mechanically, like how do you do this?
Yeah. So, so, uh, Amit has this really, really, um, uh, awesome site breath and it's, um, which, you know, that, that he's launched that has, it basically sets these breathing exercises to music and it can be really, really helpful.
Um, and sometimes I use that.
So it's literally, um, a three minute track that you follow along as you're breathing to music.
that's great but also there's there's probably more often than not i'll just set a i'll do 10 breaths right and if i'm doing six seconds in six seconds out or six second hold 12 seconds out that's only like three -ish breaths a minute so it really forces me to slow down and then i've learned more about even just physiology around just the the physics of why that lowers your heart rate you know when your lungs are inflated the increased pressure on your heart like all of these things and so i've come to really appreciate those and so there are times more often than not i'll do things for a set number
of breaths um and sometimes with the meditation i'll typically set a timer because when i'm really in flow i kind of lose you know track of of time um and so it's you know i i try different things and really go with kind of how i'm feeling in the moment and that's uh breath and breath and it's breath yeah because we said a couple times it's uh dr amith who's a great guy um yeah he's uh he really expanded my um practice as well super cool stuff um um cool conversation about uh discipline at large discipline diet and i like the idea of love we'll get into about like how that carries over to character
development all the rest but i think the reason just to kind of like highlight why this conversation with marcus yep i consider myself pretty disciplined um marcus is more disciplined than i am like marcus does uh to what other people not people that listen to this show but what normal people would look at is like that dude's crazy um and it's all about it's only in some areas yeah yeah but it's like doing hard things like that's the idea is like we do hard things not for the sake of hard things we do hard things because they they help me become the person i want to be and marcus you have this really
cool thing that i've um borrowed and thought a lot about which which is this kind of thought experiment of your eight -year -old and 80 -year -old self.
Can you kind of tell us about that?
Yeah. So it's one of these things where when I talk about like worrying about what other people think, it's something that I've, my whole life have just kind of, and I think it's pretty common for people to really worry about what other people think and people who you don't really actually necessarily even care about, but yet their opinions of you seem to matter.
and so for me i've kind of distilled it down to there's really only two people out there who ultimately i really want to make proud and one is like my my teenage self um and then the other is like my 90 year old self and those two people if they're proud of me then that's something that that's all that matters like anybody else who matters um will have really positive thoughts and and feelings and emotions about me.
And the reason I choose that is that there's this aspect of my younger self that I view as looking up to who I am now in a way that I look up to who I hope to be in the future.
And when I think about that person kind of looking back, they're looking back with, my goal is for them to be looking back with pride around how hard I'm working and what i'm doing to help them live a better life and um and then that person's never going to be satisfied there's never a point there's nothing i can achieve right now where my nine year old self is gonna be like that's enough you know like good great you know you're good like you don't need to do anything more there's always going to want there's always this aspect of me I know that is going to want to keep pushing um and wanting
to keep becoming better and so one of the things it's there's this uh Marcus Aurelius quote that really really um has spoken to me for a very long time which is waste no more time arguing what a good man is be one and so for me that's about action over words and there's a version I've kind of created of that for myself which is like waste no more time arguing what better is be better and so I've started to kind of define what better is for me or along the lines of you know physical mental and emotional and there's been a lot of really amazing things Mike Rapoli's the co -founder of vitamin water
co -founder of body armor and now the majority owner in noble has helped me kind of unlock some of these things as well which is I've always led with physical because because that's what I've known.
But the reality is, is that whenever I fall off on the physical side, it's because something has happened on the mental and emotional side.
And so I've now, and this may also have to do, you know, with age and I hope wisdom, really focusing on what can I do to strengthen the mental and emotional side.
And that comes back to what we're talking about with doing hard things and discipline, quite frankly.
So my general view is if you want to to get better at anything, or if I want to get better at anything, it comes down to three things, discipline, effort, and consistency.
And of those, you know, it's the consistency is the most important thing.
The discipline is what, you know, you need to show up.
And Ben, you've said this too about the most important thing is like walking through the door.
And there are days where you just don't go all out or there are days that you just don't have it.
But if you show up, you're going to get better and so it's just like one of those things where the discipline of showing up and if there's an a scale of effort one to ten a one's better than you know not being there at all and so um these are things that i've really kind of been working on and when you talk about discipline patrick that's kind of where i come from where i'm at right now on my discipline journey is i like the way you're talking about it as this disciplined diet is how can you you intentionally train it.
And I do believe that you can train discipline the same way you can train muscles.
It just takes different things.
And that's where this whole thing that Ben and I've been talking a lot about doing hard things comes into play.
Life is going to throw hard things at you, whether you like it or not, and you have no choice but to deal with them.
And so I've been choosing to proactively choose things that are hard. But my, my filter for that is choosing things that either I want to do, but haven't, because there's some level of resistance in me around it.
And things that I know if I do, and I get to the other side, I'm going to feel good about that experience.
It's going to help me get better mentally, physically, or emotionally.
And also talking about this just the other day around, like I'm being thoughtful around those those things because I don't want those things to be things that wreck me for an extended period of time physically.
And so it's just like with the Boston Marathon, rowing a marathon, that was a really great example of something that sounded to me when I sat at the CrossFit Games years ago, I don't remember what year that was, when they're like rowing a marathon. I was just like, holy shit, that's like a long time on a rower.
And I remember being at the games, being in the stadium when they started, leaving, going to lunch in Madison, hanging out, coming back, and they're still on the rower.
And just be like, my God, the mental challenge with that.
But the thing that I realized is with rowing, you can find a pace and you can kind of keep going.
rowing. And so then John Marshall and I went to the CT &E setup on the marathon route.
And I was surprised and really pleasantly surprised how many rowers were there.
You had like 20 rowing machines set up, Ben.
I was like, wow. Here I thought this was a hard thing.
There are a lot of people doing it.
So this is like really, really cool.
And then I started to realize through conversations that everybody was doing it in teams of like three or four.
And then all all of a sudden I'm like, I got to stop talking to people.
Otherwise I'm going to get in my own head and not, and not do this.
Um, but I committed once I sat on the rower.
That's called a bait and switch. We're going to do this thing.
You want to join? Yeah.
But, uh, but at the end of the day, the reason I brought that up is because it was way more of a mental challenge than anything else.
Um, the next morning I was a little bit sore from it for sure.
Like my hands, I did wear gloves and I wore like cycling shorts but I was like sore from that but within 24 hours it wasn't that big of a deal um and so it didn't take away from my training going forward I was able to kind of do you know other things without having any sort of problem um as opposed to doing something you know running a marathon if it's your first one could you know knock you out for a while so just to kind of frame up some of the the hard like hard things in the discipline And one of the things that Marcus did for fun, just to kind of like see if I could do it for this idea of who will I
become on the other side?
What will I learn during the process is he did a recently did also a seven day fast. No food whatsoever for seven days.
I've done a number of three day fasts and I can say they're challenging.
They're really hard. they really everyone that's ever like give it a shot and see what starts to tug at you physically mentally and emotionally and so that's what I kind of like was like oh Marcus is operating a little different of a plane like just a this idea which I love as well as well he kind of teed up like three day okay okay, but lots of people do three days.
They all do five, but five is like, eh, five.
Like, why not just do that?
So Mark, do you want to share a little bit of that experience, what that was like?
Yeah, so it's an interesting thing.
So I've over the years kind of I started with intermittent fasting, and then I did like a 24 -hour fast. And each one of those felt very hard. Like it seemed like going 24 hours without food when I had never done that seemed like a really big deal until I did it.
and then it was suddenly it was not as hard of a thing and then I did a 48 hour and in a few 72 hours it's something I'd always wanted to do a a longer extended uh fast and for whatever reason I hadn't done it right so this is one of those hard things where I was like I know I'm gonna learn a lot about myself about my body um and my mindset in this process and what am I waiting for And so once I had that thought, then I was like, okay, here we go.
And I did a lot of research around it.
So I knew exactly like I have this thing around like knowledge versus wisdom.
You can read about, you know, what it's like to fast or you can read a book on swimming.
But like until you jump in that cold water, you know, you don't know how to swim.
Right. And then you start to learn things in ways that only come through, you know, actually doing something.
So I researched a multi -day fast. when I went into it, I didn't know exactly how long I was going to go.
Um, I figured I wanted to get to, you know, at least five days.
And I thought that the timeframe was kind of five to 10 days.
But through my research, the number one thing I was worried about was losing muscle mass because, uh, for me, muscle mass, and this is not even, this is not, it used to be a vanity thing.
It's not so much a vanity thing.
Now I recognize the importance as a release of longevity and all these things around strength and muscle mass.
And I know how hard it can be to build these things up.
So I was literally doing body scans every day.
I had a continuous glucose monitor.
I was tracking everything.
I set up kind of what I was expecting on each day.
And Amit, who's our friend, who's a physician, I was texting him periodically saying, Hey, is this okay?
Is this okay? So I'm not encouraging anyone to do an extended multi -day fast just blindly.
Like it's some of these things you should walk before you run and you should absolutely get some guidance along the the way.
But once I committed to it, I was like, all right, this is what I'm doing.
And Ben, honestly, that's the first three days of the hardest. There's this really amazing thing that's happened for me.
Um, in some of my three days fast, which is at the end of the three day fast, things start to change in a really cool way.
But in this extended fast, um, my, my hunger went away in, you know, the afternoon of the third day.
And that has to do with ghrelin levels lowering and all these things and then inflammation so I've had multiple knee surgeries and and you know I generally have aches and pains and I realized the afternoon of the third day those things went away as well and there was a lot of science behind that around inflammation and and and then there were this all of these really interesting unlocks that happened for me each day and from the evening of the third day until the seventh day I had literally no hunger but the habit of eating was was a thing that kind of made me want to eat in the evenings whenever I would get
home, but it wasn't actually hunger.
And then it was once I got to day five, I was like, okay, that's a milestone.
But then as I was going into day six, I was like, day six doesn't seem to really six days.
Doesn't really make, doesn't sound right.
So it's either, I love that so much. Yeah.
And then I was like, so I got to go to seven, but the morning of the sixth day, my glucose was like low, like like really low it was like i don't know 50 or something like that and um so i was doing research around that so i had like a teaspoon of olive oil uh that night and started planning my my re -entry to food because that's also something you got to take very seriously if you've gone that amount of time without eating um eating kind of healthy things not a lot of fiber but i will tell you my first meal post -fast was three soft boiled eggs micro green some sea salt and olive oil and it was truly
amazing, truly amazing.
So it's like there's your dopamine receptors, all these things kind of reset.
So when you're reintroducing these things, it's just this really, really powerful kind of sensory overload.
And the last thing I'll say on that is the morning of day five, I was going to bed early.
I woke up at like 3 a .m., eyes wide open and all of a sudden my mind turned on like a supercomputer and I was processing thoughts, emotions, motions, literally got out of bed and just started writing and wrote for hours.
Um, it was a really, really cool and powerful, um, experience.
So it's something I'm going to integrate into kind of what I do, uh, going forward. So I'm going to do an extended fast in the five to seven day range, probably once or twice a year.
I love that mindset of, well, what am I waiting for?
I think that's such a cool story or question to be asking ourselves as we conceptualize these things.
We talk about this a lot on the show, but there's the two yous, right?
The two competing yous.
The one that has the long -term focus, the long -term goals, is willing to make the hard, good decisions.
decisions and then it's the short -term one which is the one that wants the pleasure and it wants the easy way and i think that one of the big differences in discipline is the people that have the ability to lean into the longer term self and go well i know self one is over here going like yeah but like let's wait and let's push it off it's one that everyone listens to like every diet starts on a monday right it's like no yeah i'm gonna do that thing and i'm I'm going to get ripped this summer.
And it's like you keep on – but it's what you do.
Like what am I waiting for?
I think that's what a big part, if there's two things that I've kind of pulled out of this conversation so far is the first one is like make those small decisions that set you up for the bigger decisions later on or that you don't have to.
Another one is like surround yourself with the right people.
Environment matters.
And the next one is like stop listening to that other voice that's saying, saying, yeah, and we'll do that later.
And yep, that's a great idea.
Let's do that win. Yep, let's right on and you give yourself credit for something you haven't actually done yet.
Stop trying to decide what better looks like, what a good man looks like.
Just start being one right now.
This goes in like personal, family, relationships, business.
We get really caught up in trying to make the right decisions We get this cycle of decisions when they don't count for anything until you actually take action.
I can't hear what you're saying because your actions speak so loudly.
And I think that's what Marcus does so well.
He's like, listen, I don't need to keep debating this.
I don't need to keep trying to figure this out.
Although he figures it out a lot and he does way more research and it's phenomenal.
But like, let's just go.
Let's do this thing and just take huge, huge action.
It's really cool. Yeah.
One of the things that was interesting on the fast side is that I have two daughters, 20 and 16, I was talking to my 16 year old daughter.
And they both had the same reaction.
I didn't tell them what I was doing.
And I was doing it just after the fact, I was like, Oh, and I debated telling them at all.
And, but then I decided to and they both had the same reaction, which was like a double taken.
The first question was like, why would you do that?
And just like confusion.
And so I had this really great conversation with my 16 -year -old daughter just around because it was hard. And I wanted to learn from it.
And I said, do you think there's anyone on this planet who can tell me that I'm not disciplined when I just went seven days without eating food?
And in a real 16 -year -old way, she shrugged.
She's like, yeah, I guess that's a good point.
Still kind of mocking it a little bit.
bit but it was an important point that i i did want to make to her which and to myself which is look we all second guess ourselves we all have momentary you know moments where we're like i didn't do this right or that right or self -doubt whatever it is like there's you know things don't go perfectly at all and when you have the hard times and you get down um that's where you've got to have something to kind of lean on and and um prop you up and so part of the reason for doing doing hard things for me is it's helped me change my identity.
I am someone who does hard things.
I am someone who can do hard things.
And so I'm continuously thinking about things that sound hard to me, but I can do and then unlock something else.
And that's not just physically, it's just also some of the things that are, are, are mental.
I think the most powerful ones have a physical and a mental component to it um but another one that i've talked with ben about is just letter writing it's something that i've really over the years wanted to be someone who wrote letters like handwritten letters and um for whatever reason i i haven't like i'll send texts and emails and you know things that are quick and um then i realize hey this is something i'm I'm resisting, but I know if I do this, I'm going to feel a lot better about it.
And there's so many, there's a lot of research around the power of, of, you know, handwriting, um, reflection, slowing down all of these things.
And so, um, started doing that and it was a really, really eyeopening thing.
And so I am, I've tried to journal, I could establish journal practices over the years, but since I kind of decided to do this letter writing that now I write, I journal, it's become so much easier for me.
And just about everything I do now, I'm starting with writing either to myself about it or to someone else about it.
And it's been a really, really powerful practice for me marcus will write himself a letter to himself that he'll read in a week or two just be like hey this is like like and with crazy levels of intentionality to the point where he gets a certain type of really um thick paper and uh like it almost feels like waxy almost yeah it's It's like stone paper.
It's really, really cool.
There's something very powerful about writing.
It's almost like rubbery.
It almost feels like a rubber paper and a pen that forces him to write very slow.
It's almost like the extreme example of chiseling it in, right?
It's not that. Or like writing with calligraphy.
And he works on his handwriting, so it's this very slow process to build this out.
But the letter writing is anywhere from to yourself or to people that you've known that you don't know anymore.
It's it's kind of this wide gamut that it's not just like I'm going to write a letter to my mom and I'm going to write a letter to my grandma and I'm going to write a letter to it's.
It really opens up, I think, opens up a lot of doors.
We say that's right, Marcus.
Yeah. absolutely and i think one of the things and i kind of stumbled into some of the letter writing to myself because it was i was on a trip and i wrote a letter and i i was gonna mail it to myself and read it a week later and this straddled the week where i took my 16 year old to get her learner's permit and as i'm writing this letter i was recognizing recognizing all of the things that I was going to be experiencing in the next week.
And then, you know, taking my daughter to get her learner's permit is like a big, big milestone.
And there were all these things that were going on.
And I realized, wow, it's only a week away.
And when I read this letter, I'm going to have so much more insight into these things.
And so it really became this powerful tool.
When you think about intentionality and what you want, you know for your future self or whatever like writing a letter and articulating that is in some ways speaking some of that into existence and so it's just like by being very very thoughtful about it it really kind of helped me unlock some some things and so i've written letters to just um myself at various moments in time and in the future and a letter for january 1st 2026 that I'm going to read.
It's just, it's been a really, really fun practice for me.
That's really helped me process a lot of things.
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Okay, now let's get back to the show.
This has been great.
This has been really cool.
And this just makes me think that you're the right person to coach us through this idea of a disciplined diet, Marcus.
So let's wrap up this conversation.
We've got six sort of, I just think about them as sort of metaphors for a nutritional diet that we're going to take, that we all kind kind of have a good sense of in terms of the world of nutrition and just lay them over this idea of discipline and this discipline diet, just put them out there and see what you think.
And hopefully at the end of this, folks can, if they are similar to you, Marcus, in the sense of like, who do I want to be?
What have I been waiting for?
I want to be a more disciplined person.
Hopefully we can give them a little bit of tangible advice as to how to think about implementing more consistent discipline into their lives in the way it seems like you have. So let's talk about quality, quantity, variety, consistency, and flexibility when it comes to our disciplined diet.
The first one is going to be nutrient quality, or in our case, challenge quality.
A healthy diet focuses on nutrient -dense foods.
In a disciplined diet, this means choosing nutrient -dense challenges, tasks, and habits that require effort, foster growth, and stretch your comfort zones.
These are the whole foods of character development, daily commitments, difficult conversations regular workouts or purposeful discomfort so Marcus I would love to I would love to know what you think of as the the whole foods of character development what are the what are nutrient dense challenges to you I think there's a great way of looking at it and for me it starts with kind of that definition of you know what better is and when you think about like the the way the filter I use for doing hard things is that it's going to lead me to a better place.
And most importantly, that starts with understanding where I want to go, right?
So it's first of all, decide who you would be, right, which is a deeply, deeply reflective question.
But once you've decided that, and then the do what you must, then picking hard things things to intentionally put you on that path and putting boulders in your way and for you to overcome and that's where for me like the the fasting I knew on the other side of that I was going to learn a lot about myself and it would take me further down the road to who I want to be same thing with like breath work and meditation um even the rowing thing it was mindset I wanted it i recognized that when i thought about it it seemed like a really big deal and i wanted to show myself it wasn't as big of a challenge
as i thought it was i wanted to prove to myself that i could do it and so once you decide who you want to be then picking this nutrient dense kind of disciplined diet that moves you along that path and then intentionally doing those i think is really really important and i think we make it into this in a moment but like making sure that we're doing it in a balanced way that we're not overloading ourselves with so many different things like to your point it one of the things you sent me was like having you know and even too much of a good thing so it's like finding the right balance around those things
so that something that becomes sustainable yep yeah let's get into that because that is the next thing so just as overeating even healthy foods can be counterproductive so too can overloading yourself with too many challenges that lead to burnout a disciplined diet involves intentional intentional portioning, regular manageable doses of difficulty that builds strength without overwhelming us.
How do you balance these things?
Because it seems like in this conversation, it seems like you're doing all these things at once.
I imagine this is over the course of years that you've thought about these things, you've played with these things, you've challenged yourself with these ideas.
But how do you make sure that you're not biting off more than you can chew?
How do you make sure that you're doing the right thing versus a bunch of different things.
So a lot of times I don't do that well.
Sometimes I do, but it's one of the, after, after the fast, for example, I was so dialed in for those days.
I mean, I literally every morning waking up, going to do an in -body scan, like it was all the stuff.
And then when I finally kind of broke the fast, I just needed a full mental and emotional break from tracking measuring any of those things.
And historically, I'd struggled with allowing myself to do that.
And so one of the things that I'm trying more and more to do is to give myself a break and to have grace with those things.
Ben and I've talked about this around the 30 minute, one hour and two hour track on Comp Train.
And so I've been doing the two hour track.
But then all of a sudden, it got to a point where if I couldn't do the full two hour, I was feeling like I was letting myself down, which was like, absurd, right?
So it's just like, if I worked out for an hour, that's really, really great.
But I would do that, and somehow feel bad that I didn't do the full maximum amount.
And so some of this stuff I lean into intentionally, like, Okay, I'm not going to do that.
This week. And I'm going to let myself not be as dialed in, in.
I'm going to give myself a break.
I don't. Um, it's one of the reasons I don't meditate every single day.
Um, because if I set the expectation for myself to do it seven days a week and I miss a day or two, I'm going to focus on that missed day or two.
And I, I can say that about myself cause that's the way I've done it historically.
So when I put these things together and these goals together, they're directionally correct.
And I very rarely tell myself I'm going going to do something every single day.
Um, because that for me is a formula, um, for disappointment.
And they say, you know, happiness, the Delta between expectations and reality.
Um, so I really try to pay attention to that.
Has there, has there been a time when you tried to do too much or you did maybe over index toward these challenges and perhaps what were the lessons from that?
Yeah. I mean, they always end in a bit of a, uh, train wreck around just too many many things going on.
And then I just like end up wasting more time at the end.
And Ben and I were actually talking about this yesterday too, about doing, going overboard with something.
And this is why picking hard things that don't leave you sore for months, because at the end of the day, then you can't do the things that you want to be doing day in and day out.
And so you you can over -train yourself to, you know, reducing your VO2 max, reducing your strength, reducing your muscle mass.
I trained for a half Ironman years ago and I was less fit when I did the Ironman as when I started the training, despite spending all this time on a bike and running and swimming, because I didn't lift weights the same.
I didn't, you know, nutritionally, there were so many things that I was missing, because I was focused on this kind of hyper focus goal.
And I lost sight of the big picture.
And so whenever I lose sight of the big picture and go too far into something, I end up regretting it.
And so this comes back to kind of who I want to be.
And what I consider better physically, mentally and emotionally, and really leaning into and picking kind of the nutrient dense diet in kind of moderation that leads me towards that.
Next one we've got is variety, balance and diversity.
A balanced diet includes a variety of food groups.
A disciplined diet should also include a range of challenges, physical, mental, emotional, and social to ensure well -rounded development.
One of the things you've talked about here a couple of times is that physical, mental, emotional, what does it look look like to make sure you weren't, and you even said this at the top where like for a long time, it was just that physical domain, but what does it look like to try to balance across all three of those things?
So for me, the, the, the big unlock on the mental side has been, has been around the breathwork and meditation and doing hard things like cold plunge or like little little things that are very much around a decision point in making those.
The biggest thing for me on the emotional side is just relationships and people.
And it's just this amazing thing where there are times where I make it a point to say hi to as many people as I can.
And it's really amazing in this world, how many people just go around with their eyes down and, and, you know, not really wanting to make any sort of eye contact or emotional connection.
But the moment you smile at someone sincerely and say, Hello, nine times out of 10, they like explode back to you.
And there's just like this really cool thing that happens with that.
And I find the more that I do those things, the more that I'm starting to experience more and more people kind of giving me that energy as well.
So there's subtle things around just the energy you put out into the world.
world. Um, when you're open to that, I think is a really, really powerful thing.
And so the emotional side is something that I've really been experimenting with and unlocking and been amazed by as I've kind of learned, um, and discovered more.
Where is the, where's the discipline in that pursuit?
It's hard. Yeah. I mean, like I dare you the next time you go into a Starbucks to say hi to 10 people.
Yeah. Like it's, it's people who not people who aren't looking at you, right like to go up to a stranger and say hi i'm patrick how are you today it's it's it's not an easy it's not an easy thing um but the more you do that the easier it gets and you also recognize i don't know what you know at least for me i don't want to bother people i don't want them to think that i'm you know being selling them something weird or sell yeah any of those things but more often than not when you when you have those things and you experience the range of emotions emotions, you really, it crystallizes what's there.
And then you recognize that there's really nothing to fear about it.
Yeah, I think that next one, avoiding junk food or limiting comfort behaviors.
A food diet often limits junk food, empty calories that taste good, but do little for health.
In a disciplined diet, junk behaviors are those that provide immediate comfort or distraction, but undermine long term growth like mindless scrolling, procrastination, or avoidance of discomfort.
I'm curious, perhaps maybe what are your guilty empty calories, Marcus, because it does seem like perhaps you don't have any, I'm sure, but I would love to know maybe what what you fight against when you're thinking about these sort of empty calories.
So I'll go strictly down the nutrition side, right?
So my one thing I want to emphasize for me, one of the most important things and powerful things are habits.
And so developing habits make these things easier, right?
So developing healthy habits, doing things that you know, ben was talking about doing things for your future self doing like leaving your clothes out you know for the gym having your coffee ready to go like you know the the cup i'm literally looking at my coffee machine and my cup is uh right there so tomorrow i can put it in but doing these things to make it a lot easier for ourselves to reduce resistance and reduce the time it takes to make a good decision is really really important and so for me one of the the the biggest things I do is if I go grocery shopping, I just don't buy junk food,
but I have daughters that like, you know, cookies and other things.
And so, uh, sometimes they'll get these things.
And then when they're on the counter, it is like, that's where I'm like, I can't believe I just had all these cookies.
And so it's like, if they weren't there, I wouldn't have them.
And so for me, it's about creating a structure for myself, um, where I make those, I have those those moments of discipline where they matter the most so I don't have to deal with them later.
And then I, like most people, you know, my, my willpower and discipline is like a sand to the hourglass and it drains over the course of the day.
And by the evening it's low.
And so really making sure that I've got things set up so that, um, I'm in a position to not make bad, bad decisions around food and these other things in those moments.
And so it's really trying to set up the habits and the structures and all these things to avoid a lot of that.
Yeah, that one feeds into our next one, which is consistency, which we have also talked about.
The benefits of a diet come from what you do consistently, not occasionally.
Similarly, building discipline is all about small, sustainable actions repeated over time, not occasional bursts of motivation.
True discipline takes years to ingrain, not just weeks.
I'd love for you to give us what your own definition Marcus is between motivation and discipline so for me the Discipline is My ability to to do what I said, I'm gonna do I'm gonna sit down.
I'm gonna write I'm gonna do that I'm not gonna you know, put the Cheetos on the card. I'm not gonna do those things motivation is the desire to create something going forward create the version of myself i can be motivated but if i don't have the discipline to actually sit down it doesn't really matter and that kind of leads into the most important thing for me that's the biggest unlock is literally i think as james clear talks about the two minute rule it's just like literally force yourself to if it's writing sit down for two minutes if it's you know going to the gym and you don't want like
putting on your shoes and walking knocking out the door, do something that starts the action and commit to doing it for only two minutes.
And at the end of the two minutes, if you're like, you know what?
I don't want to do this.
I'm going to stop then.
Okay. Maybe that's the time to do it.
Um, but if what I find is nine times, 95 times out of a hundred is once I sit down to do something, or once I put on my shoes and head to the car to go to the gym, it's just like momentum carries me.
Um, same thing when ordering at a restaurant you know all you need you don't need discipline throughout the meal you need discipline when the when you're ordering could i have the side salad instead of the fries please and then if you do that and then two minutes later you're like i really need those french fries and you got to get up go find your server and say bring me those fries then do that you know like absolutely go ahead and do that but more often than not you're you if you have that discipline discipline for that moment, it's going to carry you in a way that could change your life.
That's the thing. That's my belief.
Yep. All right. The last way we can think about a disciplined diet, like we do a nutrition diet, forgiveness and flexibility.
No one eats perfectly all the time and expecting perfection leads to failure.
The same is true for discipline.
Occasional slip -ups are natural.
What matters is returning to your diet after setbacks, embracing imperfection and focusing on long -term consistency rather than short -term perfection.
I think this is something I think Ben and I have talked, we've talked about it as it relates to actual nutrition.
We've talked about it as it relates to training, just this perfectionist mindset.
Marcus, you're clearly a successful person.
You've worked your butt off to do what you've done.
I imagine you have perfectionist tendencies, and I imagine that they bleed into your pursuit of discipline.
But I'm curious how you balance those things, that flexibility, that forgiveness and the desire to be better and do better.
her so for me I have a really really close friend who's kind of you know preached to me about having grace with oneself right and that's this you you fall off the horse don't get angry that you fell off the horse just get back on it and so if there's something that you're you're you you plan to do that you don't do it's okay to to miss a day just don't miss two right so it's just like okay well hey today didn't work out the way that I wanted but if you miss a second if I miss a the second day, then it starts to turn into another habit.
And so for me, it's like, I've been really working on giving myself kind of grace around that momentary slip or fall, and then really focus on getting back on the horse as quickly as possible and recognizing that that's a part of the process.
And I'm constantly trying to develop habits that lead me to where I want to go.
And I've been really working on the grace of myself if there's something that I'm that I miss and recognize that that's a part of being human.
Now let's not miss again.
All right, last question to the both of you.
If somebody out there was listening and said, cool, I want to put this idea of a discipline diet into practice.
Where would you suggest they start?
Let's just assume there are, you know, we just call them average where they're disciplined sometimes and fall apart sometimes, and always constantly going back and forth in that pendulum between really dialed in and disciplined and really loosey goosey, where do you begin or where would you suggest somebody begin to build a more disciplined life?
So for me, it comes back to the concept of knowledge versus wisdom.
So kind of once you decide who you want to be, you have to be brutally honest with yourself around where you are.
And this is the approach that I've taken and then build a plan on how you bridge those two things.
And that's where knowledge, that's where listening to podcasts, that's where reading books, that's where mentorship and friends and conversations come into play to help put together that kind of formula or build that path.
And then it's like, do what you got to do.
It's start to implement.
Because one of the things that I've spent a lot of time on is sometimes I can wildly overthink things and plan and plan and plan and not actually implement and not actually execute.
um and so for me it's really about learning from the people and this is where relationships come into play as well you know are you surrounded by people who who build you up or people who tell you you can't do it because if you start talking to people about who you want to be and they think that's outlandish and they're like you're never going to accomplish that that takes a that takes a toll so by talking with people who've done some of the things that you've done or that you want to to do and learning from them to help build that knowledge and then turning that knowledge into wisdom by execution is really,
really important. It's actually one of the things that I'm going to start doing more of, which is sharing some of these insights I've had along the way.
Like, I don't consider myself an expert, you know, on many things other than my own experiences.
And so sharing some of my own experiences with doing hard things and, you know, what it was was like for me related to the fast or some of these other things and because i'm also very thorough around researching these things so i'm starting to put together some of this stuff that i'm going to start putting out um into the world and i think i'm going to launch a newsletter here soon that's going to start sharing uh some of these things and so um it could also be a resource for people love that and we will definitely share that when you share it uh into the world ben last word to you anything you
want to wrap this conversation up with answer that question about how you'd suggest somebody start or anything on your mind i think the biggest thing is in Marcus said this a number of times throughout it, but is this, who do I want to become?
And what we have, what we just want to recognize is that there is that internal battle and we all have it.
And what we want to do is to start to, there's, let me backtrack.
let me give a tangential story which i've told before which is this cherokee warrior is talking to his old cherokee um you know grandfather is talking to his grandson he says there's two wolves that live inside of you there's the the wolf of fear and the wolf of courage and the grandson goes well which one which one grows up in you know winds which one is the one that's going to like become the bigger one inside of me.
He says, the one that you feed.
It's when you feed with your thoughts.
I think the biggest thing to do with discipline is to set yourself up for easy wins.
So you start to create some momentum.
So you start to identify yourself as, I am the type of person that.
So if you say, like you listen to Marcus and you're super inspired by this, you're like, I'm going to do a seven day fast. I wouldn't encourage that as step one if you haven't done all of the base work below it.
Bigger to me is you're driving your car right now and you're listening to this and you go, okay, I'm going to start to build my discipline.
Make a small promise to yourself that you know you can keep.
When I get out of the car, I'm going to walk in through the door, put my bag down, and I'm going to do five pushups.
then actually do that and you go, I just did that thing I said I was going to do.
Then you go tomorrow, I'm not going to hit the snooze button and then don't.
And all of a sudden, you got these like two and you go like, wow, I'm like saying I'm going to do these things and I'm following through with these things.
That's what discipline is.
It's what Marcus said.
Motivation is like this excitement around.
Discipline is actually doing.
even when you don't want to so say now I'm not going to snooze tomorrow then tomorrow when it goes off you go I don't want to go hit it just I mean I mean opposite don't hit it get out of bed do the thing so my take is stack small wins like just stack small wins upon small ones when I get home I'm gonna hug my wife and do it.
And even though you go in and she's on the phone and she's in a different type of mood and you know it's going to be a little bit awkward. You said you were going to do this thing.
Go do that thing. And just do things that are just on the...
I think, again, James Clear, maybe the first thing to do is go read Atomic Habits.
But the small thing is, what's the the minimal viable right what's the smallest little thing that you can do don't look for the big things marcus has talked about the two minute stack the small wins so that little voice inside of you that goes i'm going to starts to get a little braver a little stronger a little louder and that other one that goes like yeah but let's wait till monday goes no no i know what you're trying to do there right now it's not a fair fight because the other one's way bigger you You got to start to feed the other guy and train the other guy so it can make him a more of a fair
fight. So let me build on that real quick if we've got a couple more moments because it's really probably one of the most important things is hard is whatever is hard for you.
It doesn't mean rowing a marathon. It doesn't mean doing an iron.
None of that. It just means something that you're resisting that you know if you do, you're going to be better.
And so there are two women on the team at Noble that are two awesome people.
And I was talking with them about doing hard things and saying, what are some things that you think are hard?
And one of them said, I've always wanted to do a pull -up, but I'm not someone who can do a pull -up.
I'm not strong enough to do a pull -up.
And I was like, not yet.
But I guarantee you, if you want to do a pull -up and you show up every day working on it, you'll absolutely be able to do a pull -up.
And so the two of them got together and started three or four days a week spending 15 minutes working on pull -ups.
And there have been times where I've walked by the rig in the office and I see them there, literally, sometimes with other people.
They're now bringing people over to show them how to do an assisted pull -up and do all of these things.
And it's now a thing where it's like, you know, the one who said, you know, I'm not someone who can do a pull -up.
I'm not strong enough to do a pull -up.
she's now like, I absolutely am going to be able to do one, and seeing that, and so there's something that happens there.
It's a change in identity around what you can and what you can't be, and whichever one you tell yourself you're going to be right, and so it may be like for rowing, maybe you never rowed before, so you just want to row 1 ,000 meters, 500 meters.
It doesn't matter what it is.
I've got a really good friend who's trying to get back in shape.
He's an an entrepreneur and has just been you know dedicated dedicated to everything but himself and so the thing i told him was like get a kettlebell and put it in your home office and every single time you walk in or out of your office i want you to pick it up don't do a kettlebell swing don't do anything just pick it up because i want you to be someone who picks up a kettlebell who feels the weight of the kettlebell feels the metal in your hands and then it's going to be do do a kettlebell swing, you know, and do five, but keep it kind of limited.
And then that's where the discipline and consistency comes into play.
And identity is that he has become someone who does kettlebell swings.
And it's an unlock there because if you're someone who does kettlebell swings, you're also somebody, it's a, it's not a big leap to being someone who works out more regularly, take care of themselves, eats more health, like makes healthier decisions, all of of those things and so i think there's this power maybe we have a another chat around this at some point around identity and how we can unlock identity through some of these uh you know acts of discipline or the discipline diet what we all heard there was that there's a rig in your office yes and a cold plunge yeah so ben there's a rig in your
office too it's called a gym don't go don't go multiple rigs multiple rigs but i work in a gym he works he works in like a big office yeah that's true marcus thank you so much this has been fantastic uh i don't know this is awesome guys so long to have you back but i'm glad we did and we will again very very soon so thank you thank you very much for tuning into the show make sure you're subscribed wherever you're listening or watching so you do not miss another episode for more more frameworks, and daily practices, visit chasingexcellence .email.
And don't forget to tap the link in the show notes for today's full listener guide, where we break down the key ideas and provide actionable steps to help you put them into practice.
Until next time, keep building health, finding freedom, and living with your heart on fire.
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