Hello and welcome to World Today, I'm Ding Hen in Beijing.
Coming up, China and Spain vow to deepen ties, citing a trusted strategic partnership.
China's foreign minister says China is ready to accelerate cooperation with Canada.
From railway to nuclear power, China is tapping private capital to finance major projects.
And UK pauses intelligence sharing with the United States on suspected drug vessels in Caribbean.
To listen to this episode again or to catch up on previous episodes, you can download our podcast by searching World Today.
Chinese President Xi Jinping says China is willing to work with Spain to build a more stable and dynamic comprehensive strategic partnership.
He made a remark in a meeting with King Philip Pei VI.
President Xi Jinping said China is ready to import more high-quality Spanish products and explore cooperation potentials in emerging fields such as new energy, the digital economy and artificial intelligence.
King Philip VI held China's achievements in poverty alleviation and green development.
He said the Chinese investments have aided the economic development and green transition in Spain.
The King is on a state visit to China.
The two heads of state witnessed the signing of 10 cooperation documents in areas such as trade, technology and education.
So for more.
Joining us now on the line is Professor Cui Hongjian from the Academy of Regional and Global Governance, Beijing Foreign Studies University.
So thank you very much for joining us today, Professor Cui Hongjian.
President Xi Jinping called for China and Spain working hand in hand to build a comprehensive strategic partnership that would be more strategically steady, more dynamic and more influential globally.
What do you think the wording here tells us about China's vision for its ties with Spain?
President Xi has this word about his hopes for the relations between China and Spain.
I think that, not only because, as we know, this year is the 20th anniversary for China-Spain's comprehensive strategic partnership, and also, I think it's a very, very important time for China try to promote its relations with Spain and also to expand the influence to the China-Europe relations as a whole.
Because as we know, this year is also the 50th anniversary for China-the EU diplomatic relations.
As we know, now China is trying to strengthen the frame of strategic partnership not only with Spain and also some other European countries and also European Union.
According to Chinese understanding, the strategic partnership could be insisted by both sides, because now it's time to require joint efforts from both China and Spain, not only to stabilize the bilateral relations and also try to contribute more to the regional and also global affairs.
As we know now for China and Spain, they have many reasons to continue this strategic partnership on the basis of steady and also fruitful cooperation for the past 20 years.
Philippine VI is actually the first Spanish monarch in 18 years to make a state visit to China.
So, in the case of China-Spain ties, Professor Cui, what do you make of the unique characteristics and advantages of diplomacy performed by Spain's constitutional monarch compared to, for example, compared to diplomacy involving Spanish government officials?
Also you know the Spanish constitution and also Spanish Monarch is, you know, head of state and to some degree, because of this political system, the Spanish Monarch is go beyond some.
Also you know government to government level, as we understand, because of the political system for Spain or some other European countries, they do have a regular government to change and also, especially recent years, because of unrest of political situation for some countries.
So once there are some changes of government, there will be some changes of policy, especially towards China.
So I think to develop these relations with constitutional monarch in Spain or some other European countries is aimed at to a long time and stable relations.
It's not just owning relations between two governments and also relations between two countries, between two peoples and also between two societies.
So I think that's the reason why this visit by Spanish leader to China has a very, very remarkable sense, especially to give a more positive and also consistent remarkable sense for the bilateral relations.
At a time when there are unresolved trade conflicts between China and the European Union, why do you think Madrid is stepping up economic engagement with Beijing?
So far as we know, there is not a clear consensus or common ground for most of the European countries.
Some issues with China, especially some difficult resolved trade conflicts or frictions, even for the evs or the earth or some other.
But, as we know, always there are some countries like spain.
They do have a consistent or clear attitudes, and especially to require more cooperation with china, just like what happened for this time both china and the span signed a lot of deals and to push forward cooperation.
So I think now it's time for China to expand this positive effect from this cooperation with Spain and to help some other European countries to understand and including I mean European Union institutions to understand what's a real purpose from China to develop its relations with European countries, and also to help European countries to understand that there will be full of benefits once they have a sensory understanding about benefits of cooperation with China.
We understand.
Actually, earlier this year, a certain country once likened Spain's decision to pursue closer economic and trade and commercial ties with China to quote unquote cutting your own throat.
Professor Tsui, how would you respond to such an analogy?
On the current complicated situations for the China-Europe relations.
It's understandable that by Spanish leaders they are facing some pressures or some criticisms from other European countries or even other Western countries.
But I think to some degree it's because that There are a lot of misunderstandings from those countries and also these views.
And at the same time yes for China and some maybe other few European countries.
So far divergences than convergences.
But now I don't think it could be a reason to stop any cooperation or further exchange between China and Spain.
I think China tried to look for the opportunity to find out more spillover effect of its relations with Sven.
I think that once there are some more exchanges between China and Sven and also some more concrete cooperation results, I think certainly there will be a very, very strong response to such an analogy.
Last week China's Ministry of Commerce said that Beijing is ready to work with the EU side to explore the possibility for the resumption of bilateral investment talks.
We know that's something that has remained frozen since the year 2021.
So how does the prospect in this particular regard look like and what role do you think Spain can play in terms of helping resume this bilateral talks in terms of investment?
Even there are some years goes by and also still the previous comprehensive investment agreement has been frozen in the European Parliament.
But I think the Chinese side never give up the effort to reactive it.
Also, you know, It's a very, very big effort from both sides to reach a very comprehensive agreement on not only investment and also trade and industry and some other.
So I think that once there will be a restart of this process to finish the agreement, I think indeed it will give a very, very big positive message to both sides and also it will be a very, very good result for this Wenwen Corporation.
But of course, so far, I think that for a short time, it's difficult for European Union to achieve some consensus on this agreement in the name of a tie.
But of course I think that once China try to make some efforts, especially to get some more communication with those countries like Spain or some other country who want to push forward cooperation with China,
I think always there will be some bigger and bigger hope for European side and finally to reach agreement and to get some more cooperation in the frame of CAI.
Lastly, we know Spain generated more than half of this country's electricity last year from renewable sources.
So obviously, the momentum of green transition or green development is over there in Spain.
So in what ways do you think China's green technologies might be able to assist Spain in its transition away from traditional fossil fuels?
So far.
I think that for the relations or cooperation between China and Spain it showcased a lot of possibility or potentials, not only for these traditional areas like agricultural products, and also some other manufacturing cooperation.
I think for the renewable energy and also the green economy, it shows a lot of potential.
You know potential.
Also, you know, not only for both China and Spain they can try to get a complementary cooperation and also they can find out a way to get a cooperation on the same or from different advantages and try to find out a new framework of advantages.
For example, just like you mentioned, Spain did a good job, even within European countries.
It's a transfer to renewable resources.
And also China has a big capacity for this green energy production.
So I think this time yes, we find out China will have some more investment and also more industry in Spain and to support this transformation of energy from traditional oil and gas to some renewable sources.
So I think it's a very, very big showcase that China and Europe once the two sides get some more cooperation hand in hand and then they can get some more fruitful cooperation on the basis of very, very big potential.
Thank you very much for joining us.
Professor Cui Hongjian from Beijing Foreign Studies University.
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Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi has called for a healthy, stable and sustainable development of China-Canada ties.
In a phone call with his Canadian counterpart, Anita Anand, Wang Yi said China is ready to resume exchanges and cooperation with Canada in various fields.
He called on the two sides' diplomatic and commerce departments to enhance coordination and properly address their concerns.
Anand said Canada is willing to work with China to achieve more outcomes in areas such as trade, drug control and energy.
Phone call came days after chinese president xi jinping and canadian prime minister mark kearney met on the sidelines of an apac economic leaders meeting held in south korea.
So joining us now on the line is professor chu chiang from mingzhu university of china.
Thank you very much for joining us, thank you.
So there are efforts by both um china and canada to uh to repair their ties.
So Are we actually seeing the return of the bilateral ties to the right track after years of twists and turns?
Well yes, we do believe that currently the sign is turning very positive between China and the Canadian relation.
After so many years of the turbulence, especially in a Trudeau administration, I don't think Canadian government is acting rationally, no matter what in the domestic affairs or in international affairs.
So they've been causing, you know, Canada really, you know, very serious toes on every front.
So I think the current administration Carney, and you know the foreign minister, you know Anand, actually you know they've been showing this kind of the determination that They're going to make sure that everything goes right with many countries, for example with China, to amend their relations and restart lots of their corporations.
Well look, China and Canada used to have very – I'm not saying the perfect relations, but actually it's pretty not bad.
We're two countries very far away from each other.
Canada has very rich oil and raw material deposit and we have many international students in Canada.
And a very favorable tourism destination for Chinese tourists.
And also, we've been providing Canadian products, very good market.
So basically we have no security threat towards each other and we've been working very well on the trade and many other things and the human you know people communications.
So actually there's no reason that two country you know will have this kind of unnecessary turbulence.
But Trudeau, actually they want to show so-called you know the political correctness and to show his you know side choosing with America So that jeopardize the whole relations between China and Canada.
I think this is the right moment now for the Carney administration to help Canada to go back to the right track, you know, actually to cooperate with China and to rebuild the mutual trust in many issues with China, you know trade, diplomatic issues and security.
I think there are a lot of the potentials we will have in the next several years.
Okay.
So, after meeting President Xi Jinping in South Korea, Mark Carney said that the Canadian government valued the ties with Beijing and would seek to make up for lost time quote-unquote.
So, in your opinion, Professor Cui, what has Canada lost really over the past several years, when the ties between China and Canada were bumpy?
Oh, actually...
We've been seeing Canada actually lost lots of actual profit, benefit.
Like an economy, the rapeseed oil and the pork export, you know, they used to export to China a lot.
And also the oil and gas.
So I think the mining industry, the farmers in Canada actually have been losing bleeding out in export profit.
And also for the you know, people-to-people communication, like the education and tourism I just mentioned.
Canada actually used to be a very you know favorable destination for the college education for the Chinese students.
But due to the current frustration, I don't think Canada is on top of Chinese students' choices anymore.
At least for me.
My university students even would rather to go back to America instead of go to Canada, because students are asking what for right?
And also about international influences.
I think Canada, especially back in the Trudeau period of time, trying to ride on the fence, swing back countries and force between China and America.
So actually the independence and the sovereign of its diplomacy decisions actually been questioned.
And also I think there's another thing in the long run we're not been discussing is about the time cost.
Because they've been missing out the whole opportunity on the Belt and Road Initiative.
They've been missing out their opportunities in the Green Energy Corporation.
They've been missing out the whole upgrading about the economic transformation.
Even some old nations, you know having the oil and gases, are trying to transform their economy right now, like saudi arabia, like the uae, like malaysia and indonesia so, i think, canada especially back in the trudeau period of time they misunderstood their importance geopolitically and economically to United States of America.
They're not as important as Saudi Arabia.
If Saudi Arabia are changing, well, I probably will think about why they're doing so.
And Canada need to make a choice and then follow up.
Now, of course, like you suggested, the United States represents a perceived key factor when we talk about Ottawa's China policy.
Now actually, in a survey released last month by this non-profit organization, Angus Wright Institute, jointly by this institute and another organization called the Asia-Pacific Foundation of Canada, they 27 of Canadians were found to hold a favorable view of China nearly triple the 10 recorded back in the year 2021.
Meanwhile, a Pew Research survey released in June this year found that 34 of Canadians viewed the United States favorably, down from 54 last year.
Why do you think Canadians' perception of China and the United States have somehow reversed?
Well, actually Canada used to be a very independent nation in many kinds of stances politically diplomatically, economically.
But only until the past 20 years.
Canada showed up itself as one of the little sidekicks of America.
It's more like a BFF of the largest bully on the campus.
While he thinks that United States of America is his BFF, but now he'd get backstabbed.
Trump said okay, they're going to take down Canada as their 51 state and also they're going to have all kinds of the sanctions on the tariffs on Canada.
So I think well, canada used to think is uh, he is the bff of this bully, but now he's been betrayed.
So all people in canada also feel betrayed.
I think that's the reason why they we all feel so frustrated about uh, you know america, and now this is the moment they turn over and see okay, why we would not partner with china?
Because we should be more pragmatic.
And also China shows up to be a very good partner, far away from each other, not threatening us at all and also buying our products.
And also currently because of the Trudeau's messing around, I think there's lots of inflation going around.
You know price goes up.
People are feeling so many pressures in the jobs and the taxations are going up.
You know hugely on everybody, especially in the white collars.
But on the other hand, the illegal or legal immigrations from India are just the flooding into this whole system and get a whole system get malfunctioning.
So I think this kind of worrisome, this kind of anxiety of Canada actually forcing Canada and the Canadian people just to turn over to see the whole things from another perspective.
I think this is good, but Also, I need to say, make up your mind.
This is not high school play.
This is actual very serious international diplomacy.
You need to have a longer vision to consider about what your relation and your position with a very important nation, but not like acting like a high school girl.
Okay.
So Professor Chee, very briefly, the final question before we let you go.
China recently reinstated group travel for its citizens to Canada.
What does this move mean to Canada?
Globalization has been jeopardized.
And for the canada, even though it looks like a bigger country but actually they have a very small population, a fragile economic you know uh, you know structures and supply chain.
In many kind of the fronts they need to cooperate with, you know bigger nation like china or america, for example, like climate change, green transformation, economic growth, if america would not to offer this cooperation.
Well, China is probably the most important trade partners and a corporation partner they probably can have in today's world.
So I think ideology cannot replace the jobs and bread.
If Canada really want to stand out as an independent sovereignty, I think this is a choice they need to make in the future.
Thank you very much for joining us.
Professor Qu Qiang joining us from Mingzhu University of China.
More to come from rail to nuclear power.
China is tapping private investment to finance major projects.
You are listening to World Today, I'm Ding Hen in Beijing.
We'll be back after a very short break.
You are back with World Today, I'm Ding Hen in Beijing.
China has introduced new measures to boost private investment in key sectors.
The State Council unveiled a 13-point package designed to broaden access for private capital, particularly in major infrastructure projects like railways, nuclear power, new urban development and low-altitude economy.
The plan is also pledging to remove barriers in the services industry and launch a special campaign to drive digital transformation of small and medium-sized enterprises.
For more my colleague Zhao, Yang earlier spoke with Dr Li Lun, assistant professor of economics with Peking University.
So, Professor Li Lun, China has announced measures to further boost private investment and support its development.
What are your main takeaways from it?
Yeah.
So from this new announcement we're seeing that, you know, the government is opening more access to the some of the infrastructure, especially the ones that are previously state heavy.
So basically the majority of it is participated by, you know, state owned companies.
Right now, access gives the private capital access to some of the revenue-bearing projects like, for example railways, like nuclear power or hydropower, like oil and gas pipelines and water supply.
So basically, of course, there is an equity signal.
So, for example, for these qualified projects now the private companies can now hold stakes that's more than 10, which means that they can be actually the real partner or the real entity in charge, not just participating in the construction.
So I think this gives a very supportive signal to the finance sector, especially the private sector, meaning that right now they can be more confident in bidding of the construction of some of the future projects that could be profitable to them.
And as you mentioned, the private sector can participate in areas from railways to oil pipelines.
And for qualified projects, private companies can hold stakes exceeding 10%.
So what are these new measures mean for private enterprises?
Yeah, so I think it basically means that they can take a more economic relevant role in construction and maintenance of these large projects.
So less than 10 usually means that they are basically only providing some of the money or the funding that's being lacked of by local governments or state owned companies.
But right now, I think this means that the private investors, the private companies, can actually be responsible or the stakeholder of certain key infrastructure projects.
I think this is basically opens the door to basically participating only in construction, to both construction and operation.
So, especially in those smaller but more profitable urban infrastructure projects, we'll definitely see more private company that can enter the market and improve the efficiency.
What message does it send about the government's priorities for private sector development at this stage of China's economic development?
Yeah.
So I think the key message behind it is fair competition and open market access for everyone.
So we're seeing that, for example, the private sector promotion law, which is effective on May 20th of 2025.
It basically gives the these private companies equal treatment and fair competition at the baseline.
So, right now, opening more sectors, or you know, basically opening the possibility for them to participate in the infrastructure's construction, just give them more equal access.
I think this basically just double like backs the previous, you know, regulation as well.
And I think the data also shows that the private economy, you know, delivers more than 60 of GDP, 70 of innovation and 80 of urban jobs.
So having more, you know participation, the participation of the private company in some of the key infrastructure sectors, can be actually more important for China's economic growth in the future.
And notably, the policy also encourages private participation in the low altitude economy.
So what opportunities does this open for investors and what does this reveal about the government support to emerging industries?
Yeah.
So I think, In terms of low attitude economy, some of the infrastructure, for example, the charging pads, the landing area for these drones sometimes they need a little bit of more decentralized approach to construction.
So basically, we can't have a central government or a provincial government trying to determine which area to construct, because otherwise you don't know if these areas actually have high demand for these drones, these devices, or for for these projects.
So i think it have to be.
We have to rely on the market to show us, you know, which are the areas that needs these, these infrastructures.
Almost, like you know, we're building the charging stations for evs.
Um, you know, in that process a lot of private company enters the market as well.
So if you're seeing a lot of cars around here needs to be charged, then we can build more.
So similarly for these low attitude economy infrastructure as well in the future.
So I think, having a little bit more participation by the market, by the private capital, it really allows a reduction of inefficiency.
It basically improves the usage and also the frequency of these infrastructure actually being used.
And China is introducing a new law to promote the private sector this year.
So Professor Li Lun, why is it?
And could you explain how the law seeks to create a more level playing field?
Yeah, so I think it provides some more legal certainty for these private companies.
So basically private sector promotion law that's effective this year basically gives equal access status and fair competition status for private firms.
So this basically gives them, you know legal ground and legal standing so that if they are, you know, encountered unfair competition or they, you know, for example, they think they're treated unequally in the bidding process they can take legal actions and potentially sue the party that's discriminating them as well.
So I think basically, it gives a nationally unified system of having the legal background for these companies and giving them the support in terms of providing them the financial services, for example, the licensing services, and These all release very strong signals that the government is supporting the private industry firmly.
And the law includes chapters on investment financing and technological innovation.
So how do all this encourage private companies to contribute to the strategic industries and China's modernization goals?
Yeah.
Of course, these private companies.
Many times they're being small or startup companies.
They have a lot of credit needs.
So authorities are urging banks and market to basically expand the credit and instruments in terms of bond equity borrowing so that these private firms can have faster growth.
But I think overall we're seeing, for example, in terms of the government guidance fund, that's backing, you know, strategic high-tech fields.
For example, we're seeing that.
You know government is funding some of the future.
You know technology that's not being.
You know that the business model isn't being as profitable now but strategically they may become more important in the future.
So we're seeing definitely all of these, you know factors or measures being taken into place so that the private companies can have a more active role in terms of innovation, in terms of participation of the sectors.
That's especially targeted for the future.
And one of the goals is to boost the confidence among private entrepreneurs.
So, in your opinion, how effective might it be in countering the external pressures, such as the global economic uncertainties, that affect the private sector growth?
Yeah.
So I think for a lot of investors right now, facing global uncertainty, they're sometimes not sure whether they they would invest in a new company or a new factory, a new plant.
But if it comes to infrastructure projects or projects that's related to energy or related to nuclear power, I think it basically unlocks a lot of possibilities for them because these projects, especially when they can take more than 10 of stakes, could be profitable, could be very stable for them, especially in this time of global uncertainty.
So I think this is another way of attracting investments, especially in this macroeconomic turbulence that we're facing in terms of trade and global pressure.
Li Lun, Assistant Professor of Economics with Peking University, talking with my colleague Zhao Yang.
You are listening to World Today.
I'm Ding Hen in Beijing.
Britain has suspended its intelligence sharing with the United States regarding suspected drug trafficking vessels in the Caribbean.
The move is highlighting the skepticism concerning the legality of the US military's campaign in the region.
US operations have reportedly resulted in more than 70 casualties across a series of attacks on boats.
Washington has also deployed the world's largest aircraft carriers to the Caribbean Sea.
In the meantime, Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro has condemned Washington's actions, calling them a blatant attempt to overthrow his government and expand US military influence throughout Latin America.
For more.
My colleague Song Ruixin spoke with Dr Joseph Siracusa, professor of global futures from Curtin University in Australia.
Professor Siracusa, the United Kingdom has reportedly halted its long-standing cooperation with the US in tracking suspected drug trafficking vessels.
So what might explain this sudden change?
And are you surprised by the timing or nature of the decision?
Not really.
I mean the British intelligence sources and the British government and British legal sources have concluded that President Trump's attack on these narcotics ships or boats, or Fisherman, whatever he's doing is at least illegal, if not extrajudicial killing.
I mean, this is just a lot of the British see this as just murder.
And of course, the British have a basis in history in the Caribbean.
They don't want to be complicit in what Trump is doing.
Trump is simply ignoring the law and using these methods. these so-called boats as target practice.
And he's identified the drug dealings in Venezuela with the narco state.
And he's raised them, elevated them to the state of armed combat.
So he's turning them into soldiers, which is not true.
I mean, all of this is just sort of like a bad, dirty, hairy movie.
And that's, of course, what Trump is doing in the Caribbean.
He's just playing his own game.
It looks like the pushback doesn't stop there.
I mean the French foreign minister has accused the US of violating international law through its military operations in the Caribbean.
Can you recall any previous occasions when, let's say, those European countries made similar accusations against Washington?
And how did those situations play out?
Well, in the 20th century the United States inherited gunboat diplomacy from the British in a French forcing various countries like Venezuela to turn over their customs unions to pay their debts, and that kind of thing.
And gunboat diplomacy is very popular there.
I mean Yankee invasions are very have a long and nasty memory in Latin America.
Just the opposite, of course, what Roosevelt's good deal policy with the Latin American countries was.
And, you know, the French don't like it.
I mean, the regular thing you do is, if you suspect there is a boat or a ship that has drugs, the British or the French would pass on the intelligence and the United States Coast Guard would interdict the ship, they would seize it, they would search it and if it had drugs, they'd seize it, bring it back to the closest US port, seize the drugs and burn them, and then they would decide whether to prosecute the people on board.
I mean, this idea of just attacking them doesn't make any sense, and it's very bad optics.
I mean, you can't talk about the rules of the game in Ukraine and in Gaza and places like that, while you don't have any rules someplace else.
So what this looks like is just...
It looks like murder to a lot of these people, and they don't want to be part of it.
I mean, this is a very healthy pushback on the part of America's normal allies, who just see this as violating international law at all levels.
Then what factors led to such a change in their approach?
The Venezuelans, there's a socialist government there.
It doesn't make a difference what government is.
Maduro has been in place since 2013.
He's anti-American, as you have to be in that part of the world to survive, whether it's narcotics or oil or whatever it is.
And a lot of the Latin American countries.
They like to push back against the United States as long as the United States is playing rules.
And Europeans will do the same kind of thing when they can get away with it.
And the United States, of course, is worried about the drugs.
I mean, that's what they say is that these drugs are the number one killer of Americans.
I mean, I've argued on your show on numerous occasions that these American epidemics, these drug epidemics, are about moral failure.
It has nothing to do with morality, foreign countries or precursors, or the Mexican border or the Canadian border.
And so what Trump wants to do is he wants to get rid of Maduro's government in favor of parties that are favorable to the United States.
He's already hosted the next leader of Venezuela at his inaugural.
So he wants to, it's about regime change.
This is the same kind of background music we heard during the years of up to getting rid of Saddam Hussein, that he had weapons of mass destruction.
So the story now is that Maduro is ahead of a narcotic state.
And they're going after him the way they went after General Noriega some years ago, when they shoehorned him out of Panama and put him in a Miami prison for life.
So, I mean, the administration has a number of options here.
It could go in on the ground, use special forces.
It could bomb Iran, cocaine sites and things like that, or it can directly try to decapitate the Venezuelan government and capture and or kill or bring back Maduro for trial in the United States.
Then let's see what's going on now.
Like the US has now deployed an aircraft carrier group to the region.
So what strategic advantages or signals does this deployment provide the US, both militarily or politically?
Well, it's It's more than a signal.
I mean, he's got the Navy and the Air Force set up for well, what they like to call now these days, kinetic assignments, that is, to blow the place up.
Now they're ready to go.
I mean, the president will probably stall a couple more weeks.
Nothing happens by the next couple of weeks.
You'll probably send the men and you've got the outreach.
The ability of these aircraft carriers to project force is just enormous.
As I say, they'll be used all over Venezuela on security forces, on cocaine or on drug dealers and all the rest of it.
But you know, all of this is without proof.
I mean there's no proof of any of this kind of stuff and there's going to be no trial.
I mean the idea of just going to war with somebody because they're in your way and to suggest that ordinary venezuelans are supporting maduro.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Well, he does have uh support.
He's probably got doesn't have majority support.
So an in addiction like this with american military force is going to damage your herd or kill as many potential friends of America as enemies.
And, of course, there will be people who are very marginal about Maduro, that is, whether they support him or not.
But once foreign troops start bombing your territory, people don't ask a lot of funny questions or fine questions.
You know, they defend their country and people will defend their turf.
So, you know, these things tend to have ironic conclusions.
That is, they tend to turn out very badly.
So how has Venezuela positioned itself in response to these US actions, and what broader consequences could this escalating tension have for the wider Latin American region?
Yeah well, Maduro argued that in the last election that he won, which he probably didn't win his opponents argued the election was rigged, but a lot of people around the world are claiming the elections are rigged these days.
There is a grain of truth that Colombia has been providing Colombian cartels have been providing drugs to American gangs or cartels in the United States.
That's just the grain of truth.
The rest is that the United States wants to remove Maduro and put in his place someone who's more favorable not more democratic, but just more favorable.
So what Maduro's done is he's got a policy.
Since his army and navy aren't worth very much.
What he's going to do is he's going to use about 60000 of his people who are soldiers who are not very paid very well.
I think they paid a hundred dollars a month and he's going to have them head for the hills and provide a gorilla resistance.
So they're going to go to the end.
They're going to the Americans behind the uh the scenes or behind the front lines, if it gets to that.
And also there are about 6000 um uh Venezuelans, uh civil servants mainly soldiers who are, who are going to create chaos in the cities of Venezuela to make them ungovernable.
So it's sort of like the poisoned shrimp.
If you're going to try to run the place over and eat it up, you're going to make it quite indigestible.
So Maduro is going to reply in an asymmetrical way.
That is, he's going to ask his people, troops that will fight for him, to fight in the hills.
And he's going to create chaos in the streets.
So when that happens, a lot of innocent people get killed.
And then pretty soon, you know, President Trump goes from somebody who's trying to force his will to somebody involved in a full scale civil war.
And look, getting involved in civil wars is just very bad news.
America has a very poor record of getting involved in civil wars, whether it's North and South Korea, or Vietnam, or East and West Germany.
Whatever it is, these things do not end well.
Joseph Syracusa, Professor of Global Futures from Curtin University Australia, talking with my colleague, Song Ruixin.
You are listening to World Today.
I'm Ding Han in Beijing.
Google has announced a plan to invest 64 billion in Germany in the coming years, in a push to expand the company's infrastructure and data center capacity in this country.
The plan includes a new data center in the city of Deisenbach, as well as the expansion of the company's site in Hanau.
Both locations are in central Germany.
German finance minister, Lars Kleinbaum, has held this plan as a truly important signal for the country as a business location.
Germany has been trying to lure in investors to help boost its struggling economy.
Last week, Deutsche Telekom and NVIDIA announced a 12 billion US artificial intelligence partnership.
So for more.
Joining us now on the line is Andy Mock, professor at Beijing Foreign Studies University.
Thank you very much for joining us.
Always a pleasure, Ding Hong.
So Andy, in your observation, is this a sign that Germany, and also, in a bigger picture sense, Europe even is trying to catch up in this artificial intelligence race?
Well, Ding Hong, I think it is certainly a hopeful gesture.
But to be very honest, $6 billion, a couple of billion dollars really buys you very little.
It's a drop in the bucket.
So Microsoft and Amazon spend about 10 times that every quarter or every three months.
OpenAI has announced it plans to spend more than a trillion dollars in capacity.
So I think Europe's ambition is real.
But without a radical shift in pace and scale, I think it's going to be very, very difficult for Europe to catch up in what really is a two-horse race when it comes to AI the United States and China, certainly in the near term.
Mm-hmm.
So high costs, especially high energy costs and red tape.
These are sometimes seen as among the leading factors behind Germany's current economic sluggishness.
So do you think these two factors will pose big hurdles, big barriers for Google's investment plan?
Why or why not?
Well Ding Hong.
So for AI, Upstream of AI.
So you have your algorithms, your large language models or whatever models you're using that have to run on data centers, which is what we were just talking about.
But upstream of that, data centers require not only electricity, but inexpensive electricity.
So for Germany, I think this really is a self-inflicted wound.
Breaking with Russia was morally understandable from a German perspective, but it was economically disastrous because what Germany did was they traded affordable, reliable power for expensive virtue.
And again, you mentioned red tape too.
So, when you add layers of permitting and perhaps local opposition yes, I think that both of these may be hurdles that make it very difficult for Google or other so-called hyperscalers Amazon Microsoft, et cetera to broaden their AI footprint in Germany and maybe Europe more generally.
Now, of course, I mean, Germany's traditional industrial power has a good foundation despite its current economic woes.
So Under what kind of conditions Andy, do you think AI might be able to refresh Germany's manufacturing industry?
Well, I think it's going to take more than just AI.
So Germany, of course, historically has been an industrial powerhouse.
And this has rested on an ecosystem of affordable energy, skilled labor, and engineering discipline.
And we see this of course increasingly with internal combustion engines, where Germany has led for decades here.
But, as we see, with not just AI but a broader technology shift, say from internal combustion engine vehicles to electric vehicles, that it's going to take, I think, a much deeper, perhaps re-envisioning and perhaps restructuring of the German model.
Of which, of course, AI can play a very important role.
But I think we can't think of AI as perhaps a band-aid or some kind of magic bullet that will restore Germany's traditional industrial strength.
Yeah, because what AI will bring to the manufacturing industry.
One thing we can think of is, for example, the automation.
And that's a totally not totally, but very much different scenario than the traditional way of manufacturing things in those factories, I guess.
You're absolutely right, Ding Hong.
And here I think you know it's maybe a continuum that AI certainly is very exciting and, I think, has very powerful applications in manufacturing.
But you're absolutely right to talk about automation.
So, for example, in China, even without what we, you know, think of as cutting edge AI, China has highly automated so called lights out manufacturing, meaning that you know there's so few humans involved in the manufacturing process you don't need lights on because it's so automated.
And by a very, very important when it comes to global manufacturing competitiveness.
Finally Andy, this uneasy relationship between Europe and the United States.
Since President Donald Trump returned to power in January this year, This has really fueled calls for more digital sovereignty over there in Europe.
Some people in Europe are concerned about reliance on American tech giants in sensitive areas like AI.
Is this a legitimate concern, briefly?
It absolutely is legitimate, Ding Hong.
And it ranges from reliance on the technology, where the data is stored.
So there are many, many issues here.
And of course, I think this is a real dilemma for Europe.
So yes, you are absolutely right.
Okay.
Thank you very much for joining us.
Andy Mak, professor at Beijing Foreign Studies University.
That's all the time for this edition of World Today.
A quick recap of today's headline news.
China and Spain vow to deepen bilateral ties, citing a trusted strategic partnership.
China's foreign minister says China is ready to accelerate cooperation with Canada.
From rail to nuclear power, China is tapping private capital to fund major projects.
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I'm Dinghan in Beijing.
Thank you so much for listening.
Bye for now.
