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Narcissistic people know empathy gets you things.
Hey everyone, it's Rosie. Welcome back to Radio Headspace.
If you spend any time online, you know that narcissism gets thrown around a lot.
But what exactly is narcissism? And how do we deal with the narcissist?
To help us answer these questions, I'm joined by the brilliant Dr. Ramani Durvasula.
She's a clinical psychologist, author and one of the leading experts on narcissistic abuse and recovery.
Today, we're going to talk about what narcissism looks like in real life.
Whether you're navigating a difficult boss, family member, or just looking to protect your peace, this one's going to leave you with some real tools.
Let's get into it. Dr. Ramani. me I'm so excited I've been wanting to have this conversation with you for so long you're in my feed constantly You were in my feed so much that at one point I was like, am I a narcissist?
Yeah, I know. That's the other problem. you know, there's two sides of this to be on.
Though increasingly we are finding that there are a fair number of people who are narcissistic, who are accusing the other person of that.
They're in a narcissistic relationship. That's the whole snake swallowing.
Oh, the tail thing that i'm now working yeah i'd love i'd love to get into that first things first What got you into narcissism?
Yeah, I wish it was a sassier story, to be honest with you.
It's actually kind of boring and researchy and sciencey.
I was a professor here at Cal State LA. We were talking about commonality there.
So I was a university professor and focused on some specific things on how people...
I'll take care of their health basically.
And I specifically worked with people at HIV and all that.
So that's my focus. And what we noticed, though, was one of our research assistants and several of our research assistants would come back from the field like, you know, rubbing their head and saying, oh my gosh, this person's so difficult.
And then it dawned on me, I said, oh, this is interesting.
These people, these difficult people, that's the word we were using at the time, were creating havoc for the nurses, for the receptionists, for the physicians.
And I thought just these people were almost like they were kind of hurting everyone's healthcare.
So that led me on this sort of journey of trying to understand how personality affected health and specifically these more kind of difficult personality styles like narcissism.
And after I'd done this research for a while, more and more people were coming in and they were talking about their relationships.
And it was a lot of the same things. They were being invalidated.
They were being gaslighted. They were being manipulated.
They were second-guessing themselves, and, and, and.
They were reading all the books out there on relationships and communication.
Bless their hearts. Like students, they were like, okay, communicate like this.
And then nothing was working. I mean, it dawned on me that the behaviors that their partners were showing, they're very narcissistic.
I'm thinking, And I kind of went out on a limb.
It was almost like trying something you don't usually try.
I thought, what would happen if I educated these folks on narcissism?
When people realized this thing had a name, it changed everything for them.
Because every person in a narcissistic relationship, until they have this framework, basically thinks that themselves is crazy.
And then I realized that educating people about this could actually help them understand when there are these repetitively toxic relationships.
And not just intimate relationships, but family relationships, workplace, all of that.
And the clincher was no one was writing about this.
There was a book here or there, but there was definitely nothing in the sort of what I consider more the professional literature.
I thought, nobody's learning about this.
And then when I looked backwards at my experience in graduate school, and I had the most wonderful graduate program at UCLA.
I loved it. Nobody used the word narcissism once.
I wasn't taught this. We weren't told this.
And that was back in the 90s. In 2025, it's the same story.
So the therapists don't know. people are suffering we're not willing to call this what it is and so that's where this this niche got filled and that's why I do what I do.
Currently. I should have added this. I'm, uh, in, uh, grad school right now.
You are, uh, Pepperdine. I'm doing the clinical psychology program currently.
I don't know what my future is going to hold, but I am currently in the process.
Thank you. But I really think that this is so important because one of the things I've heard you talk about this before, too, it's a personality style.
And from what I understand. personality styles are very difficult to diagnose.
Well, we wouldn't say diagnose. You got a personality.
I got a personality. Everyone's got one, right?
Yeah. Some personalities are more flexible and agreeable.
Some personalities are more rigid. Some personalities put people at odds with other people.
They're called antagonistic personalities.
And listen, too much of any personality is a problem.
So like, let's say a person has just a little antagonism, not too much, and actually an exact right amount. they might just be assertive.
They're like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
There's a hair in your suit. We're going to send it back, right?
That's a good example of maybe... Tiny bit of healthy antagonism.
But if a person's too antagonistic, then we're talking about narcissism.
Agreeableness is considered benchmark for healthy personality, warm, empathic, modest, humble, but too much agreeableness can be a bad thing because this is somebody who may always give in to what everyone else wants and kind of get themselves into harm's way.
The challenge with narcissism, and this is where it's a unique place where clinical stuff meets sociological, big picture stuff.
This personality style, which blows up relationships, is difficult to get along with, is also a personality style where they make more money, where they're more successful at dating, where they're more likely to end up in leadership.
So you have a personality style that at one level is societally valued and in the same breath is hurting anyone who's in a relationship with it.
Yeah. So what is the definition of narcissism?
So narcissism is a personality style that can be characterized as maladaptive, which is a fancy word for saying is not doing anyone any favors, though we'll come back to that sociological piece in a minute, and it's rigid.
The healthier the personality, the more flexible it is.
Think of it as a body. You do yoga, right?
Flexible bodies are healthier bodies, right?
Rigid bodies need to be worked on because that can lead to long-term health issues.
Well, narcissism is a rigid personality.
It's not particularly amenable to change.
And there's a laundry list of things that fall under narcissism.
And you got to have all of them. This isn't a pick and choose, right?
So people who are narcissistic are a combination of It's not that they lack empathy.
It's a big mistake people make. I've made that mistake.
They have low empathy. They have variable empathy.
They have performative empathy and they have transactional empathy.
What does all of that mean? It means that when they're having a really good day, they get the promotion, they get lots of likes on Instagram, somebody flirts with them, whatever the thing is. and they're feeling good and pumped up and confident and safe in the world, they actually can seem super connected.
So people will read that as empathy, but it goes up and down.
The first time something doesn't go exactly the way they want, it's ice.
That happens enough times. The other person in the relationship is saying, I gotta be doing something because they were really nice yesterday.
And the empathy, narcissistic people know empathy gets you things.
Right. So it's transactional. I'm just going to be nice to her to get whatever it is, a favor of sex, you know, help me out with this job, whatever, make a connection.
And it's performative. The narcissistic person will be very empathic in public.
And then you're behind closed doors and they're not so nice, but nobody believes you then because... in front of a room, in front of an audience, in front of the dinner party, they were nice.
So that's the empathy piece. Narcissistic people are also grandiose and entitled.
They really think they're more special than anybody else.
And not only do the rules not apply to them, They're hypocritical.
They do reply to you. Those people need to wait in line.
I shouldn't have to wait in line because I'm special.
So there's this real sense of their specialness and they believe, they truly feel entitled to a special life. a fantasy life, more money than anyone else, more stuff than anyone else, very Instagrammable life.
They feel entitled to that. Number three is that they have an excessive need for admiration and validation.
Healthy, normal people all want some. We all like to be told we've done a good job.
This is excessive, meaning that if you don't, You're going to have to deal with their anger.
If they don't get it, they get prickly and angry and frustrated.
So it's, wow, you did a great job emptying the dishwasher. wow, thanks for bringing home the milk.
Like everything has to be like this. And so they're always attention seeking. monopolized conversations.
Again, social media changed the narcissism game, because that's where they do a lot of that attention seeking.
Once upon a time, it was more the They just talk about themselves all of the time.
Narcissistic people are also pathologically selfish.
I don't mean regular selfish, like everything is about them.
Even their kid's birthday party ultimately is about them.
So that's the pathologically selfish point.
And then narcissistic people are impulsive and what we call dysregulated.
They just sort of have emotions and they just, especially emotions like anger, they get angry very easily.
They don't handle frustration, stress, anything that sort of implies that they're not perfect and special, they tend to pop.
You put all this together, that's a narcissistic person.
So someone who's just selfish, if someone says they're really selfish, I'll say, tell me more.
We might be there, but I need to hear the rest.
Or if somebody tells me someone's entitled, I'm going to say, tell me more.
You need all of it. And that is is somebody who's narcissistic.
Well, I feel like so many people who are watching this or maybe listening to this can already maybe list people What are the statistics of narcissists?
This is what's tricky. So you'll notice I don't use the word diagnosis.
I don't even believe there should be this diagnosis.
You'll learn that as you go through school too, is that I don't think it makes much sense to have a diagnosis where we don't really have a evidence-based for treatment.
And many people who are narcissistic don't come to therapy.
And it's also not something that someone cops to.
On average, most narcissistic people think of themselves as really empathic, nice people.
In some research we've done, my sort of research collaborator and myself, One thing we found, we asked people questions about their partners, right?
That's all, nothing more. And just said, how true are these statements of your partner?
When we did it that way, we found a rate of around 12%, 13%. of them were describing their partners as narcissistic.
And that tends to line up with what we're seeing as sort of a, what we call, it's called a population level estimates, a fancy word of saying, If you just sort of stuck a bucket in the population, randomly pulled it up and you pulled 100 people up, somewhere between 10 and 12 of them would be narcissistic enough that we'd notice it.
And remember, narcissism's on a spectrum from mild to severe.
So that also muddies the waters a little bit too.
But in terms of this, now of that 12%, I'm saying a much smaller percent is gonna be on that severe end, right?
So we're going to see much more in the mild to moderate side.
The more you come up on the severity, the more you see more heavy-handed manipulation, more betrayal. less accountability, more blame shifting, more severe, more of that.
And by the time you get to the highest levels, you see a lot of interpersonal control.
So the person down at the milder end, it's probably not being controlling.
It's just more, it shows up more as selfishness.
It's sort of my way or the highway. I'm not going to empty the dishwasher.
It feels like there's a big prevalence with that word being thrown around.
Too much. And I think that... I don't know if we had already started...
Recording or not, but I did say that my fee I feel like my feed is just there's so so much of this conversation happening and it it feels to me like I an easy assessment to somebody not being agreeable with them.
Does that make sense? Yes. And that's a problem because that's not what narcissism is.
That's that's. And again, I'm talking about.
So if you pull out 100 people and 12 of them.
You've got 12 people and only one of them is probably noticeable, not even severe, any.
That 12% is everywhere from mild to severe.
Oh, okay. That severe is probably closer to 1% or 2%.
You see what I'm saying? So it's not that frequent.
I mean, thank goodness. It seems like it because the news is always about narcissistic people.
Narcissistic people make the headlines. narcissistic people fill our social media feeds because they post more than anyone else.
It's like, I'm in Hawaii. Look at my boat on a private jet.
Like, There's a lot of that, like, look at me, look at me, look at me, that a healthy person is not going to get as lost in.
So it feels like there's more. But there's actually not, thank goodness.
Which just tells us then of the remaining 88% of people, I would argue that around somewhere between 20 and 25 percent of that group and some of the overlap with narcissism have other mental health issues.
But that puts us squarely at about 50 to 60 percent of people are healthy.
Wow. Okay. So that's... Yes. It's not as depressing.
Half full as opposed to... Because you could see how... Especially because it's in my... you know, proximity and in my world and what I'm reading and studying.
So I feel like I'm just kind of surrounded and also being, you know, and This is not... I've worked in the entertainment industry, right?
I work in the wellness world, but it's still...
The statistics feel very similar. So here's the thing we've got to remember is it all depends on where you lower your bucket.
You lower your bucket in the general population, you're going to pull up 12%.
You lower it into the entertainment industry, you're pulling up 20%.
See what I'm saying? You're going to pull it up more in certain industries.
You pull it up in CEOs, you're probably at 30%.
So there's certain places we're going to see an over-representation.
Even, I hate to say it, strangely enough, wellness.
There's a lot of narcissism in wellness, and it's actually a specific form of wellness. it's actually a specific form of narcissism called communal narcissism, where they get their their , their supply from being perceived as being a do-gooder.
Look how I'm the greatest meditation teacher.
I, if you're not getting better, it's because you don't have the right positive spirit.
They get their validation from being perceived as the greatest healer and you know you know this world well it's and it can be quite dangerous it can almost look cultic at times and the real taking advantage and exploiting vulnerabilities of people who are really suffering, making a lot of money off of their backs.
And so the wellness world is actually when I tell people navigate this very, very carefully.
Yeah, because people are so susceptible.
Very susceptible, very susceptible. And there's money to be made.
And those are the kinds of, when you see susceptibility and money to be made, Those are the kinds of places you're going to see narcissistic people hanging out.
I mean, it's fascinating to me, the whole idea, because I start to think about it in terms of, okay, there was this situation where... a year ago, a friend of mine recently divorced, she's in the dating pool and she's every person that she's dating turns out to be a narcissist.
And I'm like, I'm the type of person that I'm like, what's the common denominator?
You know, because I'm always like, am I am I the narcissist?
Like, is it me? Am I the person? And the reason why I bring it up, it's not. you.
That's why the book. And the reason why I bring it up, because we went to this wellness event and she was talking about this, you know, she had just read this thing about how, you know, most men are narcissists.
And I know that that is not accurate, right?
And we started to have this discussion. I'm like, I just don't feel, and I was familiar with your work, you know, and But I also didn't want to get into a big discussion because we were in the car and I just didn't feel like having an argument.
But we get to this place and she... She says in this room full of people, if you can't spot the narcissist, then it's probably you.
And I was like, that doesn't make any sense.
We don't really talk that much anymore, but I'll let you imagine why that is.
I'll give you one common mistake people will say.
They're in a relationship and their partner cheats on them.
And the immediate go-to is they're narcissistic.
And to which I'll say, we don't know yet.
Tell me more. It's not nice to cheat. There's a difference between narcissistic and not narcissistic cheating.
Just because someone hurts us doesn't mean they're narcissistic, right?
If a narcissistic person gets caught in a betrayal, they blame their partner.
They'll say, you're making such a big deal out of this.
So they gaslight them, make them feel crazy. for pointing out a betrayal.
And then we'll often say, you weren't having as much sex with me.
You weren't paying attention to me when the kids came It's like you were totally distracted.
So now the person being betrayed is being blamed for their own betrayal.
That's narcissistic stuff. But the person who gets caught in some sort of adolescent hijinks who says, I screwed up, like this was uncalled for, maybe even commits to doing real therapeutic work, real behavioral change, there's a chance for repair.
But in narcissistic relationships, the thing that goes away is that opportunity for repair.
So each betrayal is a new wound on top of an unhealed old wound.
Wow. It sounds complicated, but also it sounds like so easy to spot in a way.
No, it's not. On average, a person in a relationship with someone narcissistic will take almost a year to figure that out.
Yeah, it takes, and that's a problem. Because then after a year, by a year, you might have moved in.
By a year, you might have gotten engaged.
By a year, they're built into your life.
Depends on the person. That's why I say slow and steady wins the game in relationships because it takes that long even for a therapist, right?
It takes us weeks all the time. Therapists can be narcissistic and can do some real harm.
I have met many narcissistic therapists.
There can be a real God complex, right? That we've got all the answers.
I'm like one of those therapists who says, I don't know what damn, my life's a mess.
So let me tell you, I know how to make a mess and I kind of know how to clean one up.
You know, I always say we don't know the messes of our therapist's lives, but the more their lives are messy, you might actually have a winner. because there's a humility there too, right?
I mean, I always say that the therapist who's like, well, I've been happily married for 50 years and we've really not had any problems and we've got three perfect children.
I'm like, next. You know, so give me the hot mess therapist.
That's my friend. But even putting that aside is really the sense that it doesn't matter the profession.
There are narcissistic therapists, there are narcissistic preschool teachers, there are narcissistic pediatricians, like even the fields we think that are the most loving and giving, That doesn't stop someone from having this personality style and getting into it, but it can take a while.
Even for a therapist, to spot a narcissistic client can take a good six to nine weeks.
Wow. This is a treacherous terrain. It's very treacherous terrain.
And that's why people look back and feel foolish.
How did I not see it? I said, nobody sees it.
I've worked with narcissistic patients. It took me three or four months and I was like, oh, now I get it.
And then when I push harder, they often drop out of therapy. get mad at me.
So this is leading me to my next question here.
It's like the first one is what makes somebody narcissistic?
Yeah. And is it treatable? Let's do the first part because that's its own long answer.
Personality is what we call sort of a social developmental phenomenon.
A personality is shaped as we go through the world in childhood, right?
Every child that was born, every human being is born with a temperament, right?
It's like a little biological sourdough starter to our personality, right?
It's gonna get shaped by the experiences.
If you've ever spent time around small children, anyone who's spent time around small children would know what I'm talking about.
Some children, even from day one, month one, week one, have really sweet temperaments.
They soothe easily. They shape into your arms.
You can travel with them. they don't fuss, they go to sleep easily, then there are kids who have tougher temperaments.
And so parenting a kid with a tougher temperament is not as easy.
And so you could have three kids and they could all have different temperaments.
The other kids are easier. It's like an easier ride.
And so if you have a tougher temperament kid, It can throw the parent who now feels less confident now.
The bigger issue, though, is this biological piece is shaped by the social world around the child.
Basically, the more chaos, trauma, adversity, abuse or even chaos that's happening in the environment, or even like just instability, and the lack of attunement to the child, the disruptions and attachment.
These are things when you combine all that together that really increase the likelihood that you'll end up with a narcissistic personality.
So a lot of people, A lot of people who are narcissistic have had difficult childhoods.
And so that's why some people consider the narcissistic personality to potentially represent a post-traumatic state.
And the challenge then becomes if you're in a relationship with someone with this personality and they had a tough childhood...
The tendency is to say, well, they had a rough start.
Like I can't be mad about this. Maybe I'll be the one who's nice to them.
I'll say it's very compassionate to be aware that this difficult person is a product of this early adversity.
It ain't your job to fix them. Which takes us to your next question is, can they be fixed?
Here's the rub, Rosie. Let's just start with basics.
Personality is hard to change, even flexible personalities. and narcissism is a more rigid personality, you tell me the odds it's going to be that changeable.
Not much. And so there has never been a randomized clinical trial, which is sort of the gold standard of therapy research.
We've never seen that. in the narcissism world.
Most of the research on treatments for narcissistic people who are narcissistic or have NPD are very much based on a few cases or people having done the work.
Now, here's the problem. In some cases, when you do have a person who has a trauma history and now is showing narcissistic behavior in adulthood, you have probably your best chance at doing some good work with them because you can do the work about their early life trauma and get somewhere.
But that requires a lot of vulnerability.
And stripping away a narcissistic person's vulnerability is like taking the skin off of them.
They are going to scream. they're going to lash out at the therapist, and they're usually, to the tune of almost 66%, going to drop out of therapy if you go there.
To do work with a narcissistic client, the client has to be motivated, you have to have an absolutely excellent therapist.
I mean, this is really like triple black diamond therapy work.
This is the highest level and I can really count on Maybe my fingers, definitely not my toes.
The therapists I've met who can do this work and do it well.
The amount of time it takes, and this is a real comment on mental health in our world right now, This ain't no eight to 10 sessions thing.
This is weeks and weeks, months and months, sometimes years and years of regular contact with a very, very, very solid therapist who isn't overwhelmed by the narcissistic client and who is able to do both the trauma-informed work but hold the narcissistic person's feet to the fire when they are behaving poorly, including in the therapy room. helping the narcissistic client feel in control in the room.
All of that magic coming together is very unlikely.
By and large, what we see is that, I mean, look at the news now.
Do you think any of these other world stage narcissistic people are are candidates for change.
I mean, listen, nobody finds God on prom night and nobody, no narcissistic person is going to be the one. who is going to change when stuff's going their way.
So in identifying some of these traits, let's say somebody is watching this or listening and they're having issues with, a person that's a narcissist and maybe they work for this person or work with this person or somebody on their team is narcissistic.
Like, how do you navigate this? So workplace creates some unique challenges, right?
Navigating any narcissistic relationship It can be challenging, but it's not impossible.
Step one is to know that this is what you're dealing with.
Right. That's step one. And to not doubt yourself, say, OK, this is all meeting this criterion.
A lot of people find just that stance to be dismissive.
So recognizing what it is, number one, number two, it's like playing poker.
Keep that card to yourself. until you figure out how to navigate this, right?
I use this, I give people who are navigating these relationships a very simple acronym.
I say, don't go deep. And what I mean by that is don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, and don't personalize.
So don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize.
People say, well, what if they're attacking me and saying something that's not true?
They're not listening to you when you defend yourself.
So you're just digging a deeper hole at that point. in a way you are really sort of very calmly in their presence.
Like, first of all, your theory that they're narcissistic now is being reinforced.
The workplace is unique because documentation matters there, right?
In an intimate relationship, it doesn't have the same, you know, You know, because what are you going to sue your partner for not listening to you?
That's not going to happen. But in the workplace. somebody steals your intellectual property or your idea.
You may, you may often not have a little bit of a leg to stand on, but it's about the Narcissists in the workplace, they are gonna gaslight, they're gonna lie, they're gonna manipulate, they're not gonna take accountability. on and on and on and on, right?
They're going to ruin your reputation. They're going to talk to other people.
So then gossip. So not defending, not explaining, interestingly.
So that doesn't mean you never explain, but you keep it tight.
So if you've ever, anyone who's ever worked with a narcissistic person will say it's actually an inefficient You kind of walk away with an inefficiency because from that point forward, you're obsessive about documenting everything and saving every email and saving every text and saving every voicemail. and having all these notes.
So it's almost as though you have to carry this burden forever because you don't trust people in the same way.
The not engaging is important too. So it's a job.
This is not your friend. This is someone you work with.
So it's really, I always tell people, get in there and get what you need and get the hell out.
Take a page out of their playbook. One thing I have to say in this, and then of course the don't personalize, is anyone in your position would be going through what you're going through.
The hard part here is that it's a... Listen, it could be your livelihood.
It's so easy to say, go find another. Yeah.
But especially if it's a hard, like entertainment industry.
Can we talk about that really quick? I've been in a position before. specifically with a person I used to work for, that I would have these grievances and all these issues about how they were treating me and this friend that I would always tell, she would just say, quit, like just quit, why are you there?
But I'm like, I have bills to pay. And then I would have all of this shame around not quitting because then I felt like, what is that saying about me?
And so I think that in what you're saying, I'd love to, if you could speak to that a little bit.
Yeah. I mean, these are both of the things you bring up are such universal themes.
Number one, it's a very privileged point of view that people can just get up and quit a job that they don't like now more than ever.
Okay. So most people don't have the financial wherewithal to say I'm gonna quit for a few, even a couple weeks, throw someone back.
Number two, think about also the industry.
We've been talking a little bit about the entertainment industry.
This isn't an easy industry to break into.
So especially when somebody's working with a big name or a big company, You feel like I'm so, you know, I'm really close to like the places where all, you know, a lot of the work is doing that I've wanted to do or somebody who's spent a a long time training or getting educated in the field, the idea that I'm gonna walk away from this and this is sort of the best or the pinnacle or great, what am I going to do instead?
And everyone in this industry talks or in this business talks.
So then you feel like this, I might be making things worse for myself.
So All of that is happening for a person in these situations.
And then on top of that, that idea of shame and that idea of shame for not leaving is especially pronounced not only in the workplace, but also in intimate relationships.
In family relationships less so though, people do feel, they feel more the shame that I'm from this family versus the shame of why am I not stepping away?
Because I think we view family estrangement differently.
But I have to tell you this, Rosie, and it's a tough truth to share. by and large in these narcissistic workplace situations, unless you get lucky. and the narcissistic person gets removed, which rarely happens.
There's a couple of reasons for that. Number one, it may be their business, their company, they're at the top of it.
Number two, they're often the golden goose.
They're what's making the money because narcissistic people are shady.
And so they'll do shady stuff to make money.
They're always bending the rules and doing unethical stuff.
So, especially if it's a corporate setting, the corporate setting wants to make money.
So they're like, la, la, la, la, la, we're going to pretend we're not seeing it, but who's going to kill the golden goose?
Nobody. What all this combines to? is that the odds of somebody outlasting a narcissistic person in a workplace are slim.
So these stories don't end well if you stay there.
In fact, one thing I see happen when people work with narcissistic people is what I call the sort of occupational freeze. you remain forever stuck in this position you never grow out of.
In fact, one thing narcissistic bosses will do is they'll say this, when they find someone good, they keep them stuck.
Because this person is the reason they can be here is because this person is making it possible.
So they won't tell them about advancement opportunities.
They won't. give them advancement opportunities.
They won't let them become more independent.
This person gets stuck. If it's an organization, they're not being told about other opportunities. because this narcissistic person doesn't care about the professional development.
They're just sort of sucking them dry. And so that they're using this person.
It's no sense of like, okay, you're really developing onto the next thing.
Go bird fly kind of thing. It's not that.
So ultimately, ultimately, it will be that painful point of somebody realizing they have to go.
And sometimes when they go, they go to a like a less prestigious company.
They end up going for a lower salary. They may end up leaving that industry.
I mean, a narcissistic boss or somebody you report to can destroy your career.
OK, so what what do we do? Like, what is the what is the sort of the light at the end of the tunnel with dealing with all this?
Like, where do we go from here? Well, it depends on the kind of relationship.
One thing we also have learned about narcissistic workplaces, especially when that's sort of the head of the whole thing or a couple of heads of the whole thing are narcissistic. you sometimes see real allyship and collaboration happen amongst those who are suffering.
So those you can find. And in fact, I'm glad you said that because I'm going to make I'll give you one quick.
That's not what a trauma bond is, so I'm gonna fix that.
But this group of people might have great ideas together.
They might start their own business together. they at least may support each other because we know that that healing happens in community.
Most people, not most people, many, maybe even half of people, can't leave their narcissistic relationships. a marriage where they have minor children or there's a financial interdependence.
There's a lot of reasons people don't leave.
Some are practical reasons. Some are very personal reasons.
Some are confusion. There's still hope. There's still love.
Those we could work on, but some of those practical ones are hard to break.
And my work has always been very focused on People can heal whether they leave these relationships or stay in them.
Now keep in mind, I'm not talking about physical violence, sexual violence, things where people's lives are at risk.
So that's a different scenario. The key becomes, and if I have to say there's only...
There's sort of two things we're talking about when we're talking about healing.
We're talking about a sense of safety in your body and in yourself that relates to a lot of your work on meditation.
And yoga can create that. And then it's about social support.
Having validating voices, people who actually see all of you, where it's not a interpersonal transaction, but it's actually sort of a two-way relationship.
Having those healthy spaces. is how you start to heal.
And sometimes it gives people the gumption to say, I am going to get out of this now.
Or maybe the kids all turn 18 and you're like, okay, now I'm done.
So oftentimes why we see these, what they call gray divorces, people wait till they're 50, 55, 60.
People say that's late in the game. I'll say, ah, how old's your youngest kid?
And sometimes it'll be somewhere between 18 and 22, like just graduated college.
So now there's none of this family court nonsense, which is horrible and abusive and all of that.
But you can still heal. I think it's about seeing it, recognizing you're not defined by it, having other validating voices around you.
And the other thing is it's hard to heal when there's no closure.
You never get that moment of the person saying, I was unkind to you.
I mistreated you. It's possible to heal without closure, but it's a lot harder.
And so that's why these relationships represent something unique.
But I see people heal every day. fall in love again.
I see people start up new careers. I see people find their voice.
I think our voices change. We're changed by this.
The thing we got to remember about trauma is you can do all this head work you want, but our bodies remember.
And we have to go through life caring for ourselves because we were hurt.
We're not broken, but we are hurt. Yeah.
Oh, this is so and it's so good to be able to hear it. distilled in this way because it does feel like we have our agency and we are able to do something about maybe an experience we've had or maybe even an experience that we're in.
What are you excited about right now? Like, what's your current passion?
I know that you're working on a couple of really cool things.
I have multiple things. I think probably one of the things I'm most proud of that we have is our healing program.
We're three years into it. The reason I find it so compelling is it sort of it goes back to this idea of social support is key to healing.
Most people who've experienced narcissistic relationships feel alone.
I am the only one who's in this nutty situation.
I'm the only one from this kind of a family.
And when you start hearing the stories, you realize how universal they are. people then start realizing, no, this really isn't me, because they're able to give guidance to someone else going through this and say, well, what if you said that right back to yourself?
So we really developed a wonderful program.
Every month it's on a different topic. We've talked about everything from rumination to grief to... forgiveness and why you don't need to forgive narcissistic people to radical acceptance.
I mean, we've taken on and I mean, 36 over 36 topics at this point.
And every month there's like an educational workshop.
There's multiple opportunities to get questions answered.
There is a guided meditation every month on the topic of the month.
And I think the crown jewel of the program is a community platform. where people, it's virtual, but it's remarkable the sorts of how I've watched, some people have been in the program for a while, really pay it forward in terms of helping other people heal and which is really amazing because that's what we do know is that one of the most important keys to healing is when you can also become that wounded healer yourself.
It's a huge part of this process and it happens and we see it.
We've had many people in the program have turned to art.
And so we've had a couple of live workshops where people show their art.
And I said, were you an artist before? They're like, no, as part of doing this program, I turned to art as a way to express because it has to come out of us.
But it doesn't just have to be talk-talk therapy.
It can be writing. It can be music. It can be painting.
It can be movement. There's so many ways that we can let that pain go.
And when we think of things like, like dance and other expressive arts, some of that was just the release of human pain.
And so... And I think maybe the more, sometimes more pain, the more beautiful that that expression can be.
So we've seen that. It is the most remarkable group of people.
It has been such an honor. And so it's still going.
The beautiful thing, I always say, the idea of healing is...
Sometimes you're just going to get off the surfboard for a minute.
And if you want to swim back out and get back on, we're always here for you.
So it's not about you. I tell people this is all about you feeling the autonomy. to make a decision.
Sometimes people say, I want to almost focus on other things for a while.
And they're like, and six months later, like, I love this topic.
I want to try this month. You can join for a month.
You can join for a year. And so it's just a chance for people –
And you can go see the back catalog. There's so much people can get out of it.
So there's a lot there. So I'm very proud of that.
And the other thing I'm proud of is all the therapist training I'm doing now too.
If you're a therapist, we have training programs where you can get all your continuing education units and learn how to do this work and writing a book for therapists now.
Yeah. There's just lots of irons in the fire.
Sign me up for everything. I'm so excited.
Dr. Romney, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing for. the work that you're doing not only to help everybody, just people that are wanting to learn, that are wanting to heal.
And for just the work that you're doing, obviously it's impacting millions and millions of people.
And so Thank you so much for doing that and for putting your work out into the world because it does impact us and it does make a difference.
Thank you, Rosie. I really appreciate that.
Thank you. Is there, where can people go to connect with you or get more?
Yeah. So you can go to our website, which is drromany.com. and you'll find all our offerings there.
I have a YouTube channel where we have content that comes out constantly.
So you can go check that out just for sort of free content on it.
We have the Dr. Romany Network, which is sort of like a weekly podcast, but it's interactive where if you watch the episode live, there's an opportunity for interactivity and you can also go back and listen to them.
We have obviously our healing program. I have three books on the topic, so you can go find all that information on the website.
You can also follow me on Instagram and on all socials at Dr. Ramani.
Great. Thank you so, so much. We'll add all of those links to the description of this podcast if you're watching on youtube or or if you're listening uh in whatever platform you get your podcasts all of those links will be there thank you thank you so much
