Hi, Esther.
I'm speaking to you in hopes that we can talk about the relationship my mother and I have.
It's a complicated one, but simply put, I am the mother in the relationship.
My mother was a product of an arranged marriage.
My parents love each other very much, but my mother is very sheltered growing up and was married and had a child by 23 without much real world experience herself.
Then, eight years later, after years of emotional abuse from my paternal grandparents, my parents moved to America.
I quickly became the intermediary between the outside world and my mom.
My father, who was busy with work and providing for his family, had little time to spend with us.
And my mom too incapable, my brother too young.
I became the emotional leader of my family.
I jokingly say I've been an adult since I was eight.
This parentification strained many relationships.
As I got older, I kept having hope that my mom and I could be both adults now, but that has also rarely happened.
Me and my dad have become the caretaker of her emotional needs.
And if I were to be very harsh, I would say that she sees herself as the victim in all of this.
The time that she had with her in-laws.
Not having the exposure to feel prepared for the outside world, not being able to speak English confidently all of it kind of becomes barriers to why she can't do something.
And if I point out any of these things and how they impacted her children, she gets defensive and even starts guilting me, so much so that it becomes my job to make her feel better.
And this pattern keeps repeating and I don't know how to confront this part of my relationship with her.
I love her very much and I have a lot of empathy for what she's gone through and try my best to validate and understand her.
But this is also something that's the undercurrent of every interaction I have with her.
So any help to mend this part? our relationship would be very helpful.
Thank you, Esther.
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I've been thinking about that message that I sent you and I've landed on the fact that I think I'm trying to mother my mother into mothering me.
And I don't know if that's a fair thing to accept or expect out of her.
And I think I'm trying to understand if I should let that go.
But I do feel a lot of hurt, especially...
When I think about my younger self.
What comes to mind?
The loneliness.
The reason it's kind of like top of mind right now is my family loves to watch home videos.
And I hate to watch them.
Because all I see is evidence of what life was like for me.
Evidence of?
Evidence of a little girl put in charge trying to sustain the well-being of her family in a new place, with not a lot of guidance and knowledge of how to do that.
And as I got older, I think I started pushing back on some of those responsibilities, think it's met with some kind of like desperation of my help, and so then I help.
I don't know how not to do that either.
Did you write to us now because you were watching the home videos, so my partner and I went back home and my parents wanted to watch it with him, and My brother actually suggested we shouldn't do that.
It doesn't make her feel good.
And then she wanted to validate if that was true, but she was also hoping that it wouldn't be that it was not the case.
So before I could even answer, it was about, oh, you know, I think you're fine, right?
That doesn't bother you, right?
He was saying that, but that's not true for you.
And I think there was like a moment of, what do I say?
Do I pretend or do I say the truth?
And I chose to say the truth, you know, and not in a way that, you know, tried to point fault to anybody, but what seeing that made me feel, you know, I said it makes me feel sad for that person.
And tell it was feeling like a criticism of her and she wanted to rationalize it away.
I tried to explain that yes, you weren't set up for success either, but that's not to say that i didn't experience those things, but i could tell it wasn't landing and you were not surprised.
Yeah, I wasn't surprised.
I mean, she was acting according to character.
Yeah.
She does have moments of understanding.
So sometimes I push, hoping that I get a glimpse of that.
But if I don't, I'm quick to stop trying.
What would you like?
Would you like to be better able to resist the tendency to rescue her at all times?
Would you like acknowledgement of what happened in the past?
Would you like for her to be able to let you have feelings and not always outdo you?
Would you like your father to take you out of the triangle?
Can I say all of the above?
I would love all of that.
In one hour or less?
But if I had to choose, I think it's how do I stop feeling resentful?
The resentment is for her limitations always, or for how she exploited you because of her limitations.
Because that's what you feel.
I was put in a position, I was too young.
In effect, I kind of had to experience what she had experienced.
Not enough experience with the world yet, and a ton of responsibility put on me.
But it hasn't stopped.
Yeah.
It's gone from limitations to entitlements.
My resentment is where she is now.
I don't have much about... Yes, it makes me sad to see it.
But I don't feel resentful about that.
Can I ask you for an example of a situation that you wish was different?
Okay.
I...
You know my parents whenever they want to do something to the house, they want to make some kind of renovation adjustment.
I'm always kind of like someone they hold up as oh, having a lot of influence and power in the family.
Like, oh, let's check in with her and see what she says and then we'll do that.
And oftentimes I feel important.
You know, I feel like I'm contributing something and helping.
So it's easy for me to feel like, oh, let me contribute.
But that comes to me a lot.
To a point where, you know, why is my input in this important?
And sometimes it's silly things like that, but sometimes it'll be about their marriage.
You know, and I... As in?
If my mom is feeling like something is not working, I become kind of like her counsel in the matter, like what should she do, or feeling like she needs to tell someone about it.
And sometimes in in the past especially, I would meddle, you know, and the pattern that we got into is my mom would complain to me about my dad, I would go confront my dad and then it became a fight between me and my dad And then mom would come in and say oh, it's not that big of a deal.
Let's stop fighting.
And you would feel undermined.
Yeah.
Because she set you up and then she didn't back you.
Right.
That is more than just parentified child.
You put me in.
I came to your rescue.
And then you basically found a way to ally with him against me.
That's how it felt.
Yeah.
And then in your head, you say, come again, but I won't be there.
I will not intervene anymore.
I won't let myself be trapped like this.
But then you do it again.
It's gotten better.
I could.
Now I had to tell her, like, your marriage is between you two.
You shouldn't be talking to your children about it.
And then she would say, but I don't have my family here.
Yes.
We are alone.
We left the extended family where?
In India.
In India.
And therefore, of course, who else would I be talking to if not my children?
But she talks primarily to you, not to your brother.
Yeah.
Or both.
Primarily to you both, but also, I think she also has this perception that like oh, men can't handle the nuances of what I'm going through, so tell me something.
On the one hand, they come, I feel important, I feel respected, I feel that I can contribute.
On the other end, I feel that I've had to give my opinion about a lot of things I know nothing about.
Yeah,
Which means I have to perform confidence.
Oh, yeah.
You had it nail in the head.
That's my whole life.
Right.
And that probably didn't just stay in the house.
No.
That accompanied you.
Because you too.
Were you born in America?
No.
I was born in India.
And you came at what age?
Eight.
Eight.
So you too had to do a lot of learning things and translating and figuring out the codes and all of that.
There's a notion sometimes that the kids learn the language sooner, so they instantly are put as the official translators for everything administrative and all of the rest.
See, when people say I had to be an adult since I was young, what does it actually mean, right?
Yeah.
What does it mean to have to perform confidence, to pretend that you know when you don't, to never be able to say I don't know, because if she doesn't know she turns to you, but if you don't know, who do you turn to?
Right right, but I'm talking generically and you know your own experience.
Yeah, I'm trying to find an example of something that embodies the adult part.
It's a lot of logistics and coordinating in an admin kind of way.
But sometimes emotionally.
It's about getting her to understand something like how the world works or how relationships are or what a dynamic between two friends are supposed to be.
And sometimes it's that, sometimes it's like how to be a woman, you know?
It's about teaching her how to dress or style herself or put herself out there or be confident.
So that's why I feel like the mother.
I've taught her everything.
But I'm asking you the flip side of this.
I've taught her everything.
And in effect, I've taught her things I actually didn't really know much about.
Right.
So I come to her with confidence.
A sense of confidence that isn't true.
I have to pretend with her that I know what she should do and she should wear.
But fundamentally, I myself, I'm winging it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's just my word.
It is.
That's how I'm imagining you.
Yeah.
Winging it.
It's like... Yeah.
Because...
It's not okay to say, I don't know.
Yeah.
And is that true in other parts of your life too?
Does that become a challenge for you?
It does.
I've become very self-sufficient.
If I don't know something, I'll go find out.
But the concept of asking someone else, I don't know how to do that.
And do you have your partner who came with you to visit your home?
Yeah.
How would he describe this?
What does he do?
I'm very different with him.
I feel like a child.
I feel taken care of.
In a sense that I can be soft and not put together all the time and not know all the answers.
That is not just a child privilege.
You cannot.
You can just say, I can let go with him.
I can surrender.
I don't have to know everything.
I have somebody who I can rely on and who I can lean on.
That's right.
Nice.
Nice.
We have to take a brief break, so stay with us.
And let's see where this goes.
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Imagine mom calls you and what would be the next request?
I need what?
Can you find me something related to some task that I have to do back home?
Can you find out who I need to call, what I need to say, what questions I should ask?
Okay.
What would be the typical response?
I'll get back to you.
Let me figure this out.
Her recent response has been, have you asked at GPT?
Because I don't know either.
That's what I would do.
Okay.
And then what happens?
She goes?
She does.
Yeah.
Recently, she does.
And dad, does he step in?
Yes.
But I think he's kind of constructed his life as he goes to work, he's busy.
So my mom is a stay-at-home mom, so she has the time.
So all these kind of questions of research either fall into her but I also work but sometimes they fall into me.
One of the ways you don't engage, because you're not...
Here's how I think this unfolds.
If you want to change the other, change yourself.
If you tell her, go do this, she may on occasion.
If you tell her, I'm so sorry.
I wouldn't know where to begin.
I'm sure you'll figure it out.
That's good.
I know that the last times you went to the chat, GBD told you this, told you that, and I actually learned from what you did.
I very much enjoy learning from you.
I don't think I've ever said that.
I'm going to suggest to you a bunch of these, but the point of these statements is that they help you redirect And not fall into the.
I either have to become mean and rejecting and tell her no, or I have to do it and then I resent her.
So it's a binary.
I do what she wants and I'm upset with myself and I do what I want and I'm upset with her.
Or reverse.
I do what she wants and I'm upset with her.
I do what I want and I feel guilty and I feel that I'm not a good daughter and that I'm not loyal and that I'm betraying a set of other values that are very important to me.
Yes.
So how do you say no without saying no?
Yeah.
It's like, I wish I could help.
I'm sure you will figure it out.
I'd love to know what you decide.
But I need your help.
So let's imagine it continues, but I need you to.
That's a very good question.
And I'm sure you will find the answer.
It's not even go ask this person and go.
It's.
I know that.
You know.
You have shown multiple times how clever thorough, solution oriented you, and all of this with an accent.
Yeah, I kept thinking of it as I have to push back, but entering it's like no win.
I push back, I feel bad, I do it, I feel bad even talking to you.
I felt so guilty.
I imagined.
It's disloyal.
Right.
She is not responsible.
She didn't know better.
I mean, you've found wonderful ways to excuse her constantly.
So to the point where you don't feel you're entitled to have your feelings.
They don't exclude each other.
You can totally be empathic and understand her and excuse her, and understand her circumstances and at the same time, feel that she took it too far or even if she didn't take it too far, that it left you in a sometimes very burdensome situation.
Many children of immigrant parents often find themselves in that situation.
It's not an uncommon, But it's not always even about you know, in the beginning there's an immigration story.
And on occasion there's an immigration reality.
But after, what, 20-something?
30.
30, okay.
So 30 years.
Right.
We've lived here now longer, right?
It's like you know viscerally when the story is true and when the story is being used correctly.
It's a crutch almost.
See, the interesting thing is that you actually will have an easier time if I can use those words to love mom.
You will love her better.
Yeah.
Instead of despite or... Yes.
Yeah.
It also feels emotionally less burdensome to try to carry around either guilt or shame and obligation.
I think that was kind of where I was putting myself.
It's like, oh, either way I'll feel a negative emotion.
But if I don't engage, then I don't have to.
Give me another example.
The example that comes to mind, when my mom's mom passed, I went home to be with her.
And what happened when I went is that my dad kind of disengaged from providing that support.
And my brother didn't come.
So it became like her grief was mine to hold and support.
And I didn't think that was going to happen.
I thought we as a family would come do it together.
And I found myself kind of holding it for her, you know?
And what happens to you then?
I feel burdened that, oh, I'm alone in having to do this.
I was also grieving, but I had to be strong.
I don't know, I think I expected my dad and my brother to also kind of Emotionally be there as well.
And do you ask them?
I didn't at the time.
And you didn't?
Because what happens?
How much do you forget yourself once her reality inhabits you and becomes entirely your reality that you can no longer have any awareness of any of your own needs, or needs for her, for that matter?
That's exactly what happened.
I just got focused on I'm here.
Okay fine, I'll help her.
Were you just you alone with her, or did you bring some of her other supports just me and her why?
You know, I think someone in the community found out and they wanted to provide some kind of support and actually I think they called and She didn't want anyone else to know.
She was surprised that someone found out.
And she wanted to kind of become a recluse and asked that person not to share it with anyone else.
But she was not the only one going through the grief.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I didn't even consider that.
I know.
I know.
I see it.
Her feelings feel so big.
I don't know.
How to have space for mine.
I had a reputation earlier in my family that I was just angry all the time.
I think it was maybe the only feeling I couldn't control.
Sometimes it's not so much that anger is the feeling we can control, but holding on to anger is a way of feeling that we at least are holding on to some of our needs.
Ah, yes, yes.
To be angry is a way of remembering yourself.
Yeah.
To be angry is a buffer.
And I think that there are other ways to do it that don't demand you to be angry.
Yeah.
That don't rely on anger as the way to maintain a space for yourself, as you say.
Yeah.
When you are crying now, they don't.
They don't know that side of you, they only know the.
I don't have no idea what the angry side looks like.
I haven't seen an iota of it.
Oh yeah, i actually don't.
For a long time i didn't know how to express anger.
The anchor that they're uh referring to is me being slightly moody distant, maybe a little snappy.
No, I don't yell.
But it's an effective angle.
Because you snap and then you do.
You snap and you comply.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Versus to actually work diligently on maintaining that space.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I understand you do not want other people to know.
We have different ways of grieving.
For me.
Other people being here with us, coming to sit with us, bringing food to us, whatever the rituals are that are part of your culture and tradition, would help me a lot.
My initial reaction to that is that it feels very selfish.
I know that's bad, but this is probably why I've been conditioned so much to even say something like that.
It sounds selfish.
What about it?
I'm not surprised, but what about it?
I think some of it is also cultural.
There's no such thing as individual needs.
It's very much, what does the family need?
Yeah, but she didn't think about that either.
I don't want anybody to know it's not a cultural need.
Yeah.
Right.
You know you probably know that from having heard me at other times I give tremendous room and space and respect for cultural values.
You do.
But I also... have learned that in families, we sometimes do cultural camouflage.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah?
It's like, we don't do this.
Our culture, we don't do this.
We use the culture to make a point that has not much to do with the culture itself.
When she doesn't want anyone to know, that is not actually the cultural value.
When you say this is happening to the whole family.
We are all going through a loss and we are all grieving.
We need the support we can get.
And you can say it in the we.
Yeah.
You are not usurping her needs.
And you are not imposing your individual, Americanized, selfish, self-centered.
Yeah?
Right, right.
What are the words I used?
Uh...
Americanized is definitely one.
There's a big kind of like, what I want, I do.
So it's very interesting.
If you assert some of your needs toward mom, you instantly will feel selfish.
Yes.
Mom instantly will experience you as defiant.
Yes.
So the system is well put in place to make sure.
Finish my sentence uh, to keep everyone in their place.
Yeah yeah, my invitation is a both end.
Okay right, it's not me versus you, right?
Both end is we are all grieving it's a big big, big loss, differently for different people, but let's say it's a big loss, is it Yeah?
Yeah, I see the pattern.
I see the flash of images, what I just experienced.
There is so much that she expects the family to kind of do in terms of accommodating to her.
And I see that as like one force kind of pulling me into what is expected of me.
And then to your point.
I feel like I build up anger and resentment and then I snap and then I rebel.
And then find a way for me to feel comfortable complying.
Walk me through it.
There was a lot of pressure on me, especially in my early 20s, to be a good Indian daughter that wants to get married.
And in our culture, a lot of that Everything about us is policed in that quest.
And hair is a big one.
So everyone feels very committed to how long your hair should be.
Because hair represents femininity and it should be long and luscious or whatever.
And every once in a while I'll go cut it.
And one day I cut it off completely.
I had a pixie cut, essentially like something that a fuck you cut.
A fuck you cut.
Exactly a fuck you cut.
I did it because I wanted it and I didn't ask for permission or you know anything.
And that delayed to your prospects of marriage by how many years?
Well, considering I'm still not married pending um I, I think it was a big fuck.
You to the family, to the expectations, to my mom's expectations of me, the culture, all of it.
And I felt like so.
Here's a rebellious act that says fuck you, and now I'm gonna bring them onto my side.
I'm gonna say it's just hair, it grows back, I'm young, I'm too young to be married anyway.
And so I go on this campaign And then sometimes they do come around and, you know.
I acted out, but I am a good girl and a good daughter anyway.
I had an act of rebellion, but I'm still loyal, beautiful.
Yes.
Breaks my heart.
But yes, that's been the pattern.
We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about.
We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
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Is your partner from the same culture?
No.
He's black.
And how has the family received that?
Not the fact that he's black as much as the fact that he's not from the culture.
It's both.
It's both.
My parents wanted me to have an arranged marriage for early in my 20s.
That perception slowly changed as I think they just got more aware of what dating is like.
And so they sat me and my brother down, maybe in our mid-20s, to say you can marry, date whoever you want.
But I think that whoever you want had parentheses of what's accepted.
I don't think they expected me to bring home a Black man.
My dad never really voiced an opinion, but I think my mom was shocked.
Yeah.
And I essentially told her I understand your feelings towards it, but it's not mine to carry with you.
I can't help you process that.
And she did it, I guess, probably with the help of my brother.
She probably sourced it over there.
My extended family doesn't know that I'm dating anybody.
Why is that?
I have to go back a little.
When we moved to America, my paternal grandparents thought that was a big mistake, especially to raise a daughter in America.
So much so that they sent a newspaper clipping of girls gone wild to my parents to say this is the future you've established for her.
I think what is considered honorable is moving, changing within the community and within my family.
You know dating is okay, but let's get married.
And if we're on the track to marriage, then we'll tell people.
But I think it's mostly her.
She doesn't want to share yet.
It would be the same if it was an Indian man?
No, it would not be.
So let's put the dots where they belong.
Yeah.
Here's another one.
Mom, I very much can see the bind that you are in.
On the one hand, you want to give me the freedom that you know I need, and that raising your children in America entails.
And, on the other hand, you don't want your wicked in-laws to tell you that you failed and they were right all along.
I see the bind.
And I have a lot of respect for how you have to deal with it.
Period.
I'll tell you what I'm thinking.
Usually when I make a decision that they don't agree with and it's not that they don't agree, but maybe they have some apprehension about how other people feel about it.
I have to coach them on what to say.
Yes.
And so to not do that would be great.
So basically, what should your mom say to the extended family in order for the extended family not to berate her, to put her down, to criticize her, to feel threatened because everybody is supposed to participate in the maintaining of the status quo?
That is part of the collectivist culture.
Mm-hmm.
If you approached her with this, I see the bind you're in.
And you have so much experience with this bind.
It's been 30 years you navigate this.
I don't nearly have that kind of experience.
My experience is about doing the things I want and not having to feel too guilty for putting you in the bind.
But I don't know how to handle the bind like.
I need to behave a certain way so that you can stand proud in front of the people that stayed in india and told you not to come, or any other situation like that.
It's constantly intergenerational and we're only addressing three.
Yeah, there may be more right.
So if you say you know i have a lot of respect for the kind of complexities that you have to deal with period, nothing else, Then what?
Play it with me.
She'll get anxious.
Yeah, she'll say.
Well, she'll say, I don't know what to say.
I don't want to have that conversation.
I don't blame you.
Yeah, they're not always very understanding.
They don't live between two cultures the way we do.
And for them, things are more clear.
I don't blame you.
Period.
Yeah.
You should ask her to ask chat GPT.
We should have the chat right now comparing notes with us.
I don't think I ever thought that not doing something was an option.
I know that.
But you're doing something.
You're just not doing the thing that you have been assigned and have gotten used and have taken on to consistently do.
You're doing something.
You're actually doing what it's called in jargon.
You're actually doing a slight differentiation from her.
This is your dilemma.
And there's not a word I've said that isn't true.
She has more experience than you.
Right.
Yeah.
This is her dilemma.
This is their dilemma.
I'm sure you and dad will discuss and find the right way to approach this.
I won't My partner's choice to be celebrated.
That feels like a more peaceful stance.
I understand that it's hard for you, mom, to tell them how happy you are for me.
And I understand how hard it may be for you to tell me that you can't tell me you're happy for me because you're constantly having to deal with the voices from abroad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a dilemma.
I hope that by the time we make a decision, you find a way to come around.
Meaning you speak to her like an adult.
It's the same as when people have decided that someone is an income poop.
You know, they've decided this person is incompetent.
So they all the time talk to their incompetence.
Me, I'm doing that.
They don't talk to the whole person.
Yeah.
And I think I feel bad about the person that I am when I'm confronted with it.
Like, I don't see her whole.
I definitely see the deficiency.
And then I'm frustrated.
And then I'm frustrated with the person that I am in that moment.
Yeah.
But your mom has...
You know, 30 years of experience.
So, you know, there's a whole journey.
Yeah.
In a way, you've all been convinced by the fears.
But the fears live in a larger frame.
There's a lot of other things about this woman.
And the invitation is for you to speak to the whole person.
I like that.
She says, I don't know what to say.
I say, yes, those are difficult conversations to have.
You don't jump in and instantly offer whatever she needs to say, because you don't actually have a clue.
It's never been your dilemma.
You don't really know what to say.
I mean, yes, you can come up with all kinds of smart things.
You're very smart.
But in effect, she knows more about it than you.
I don't think I've ever known any of the right things with what she's going through.
I'm guessing at best.
So you just said nobody knows this as well as you.
Now, this is not always going to be received.
Oh, thank you.
That is so nice, because you're loosening a pattern and all you need to do is focus on your part of the pattern.
Okay.
And stay consistent and kind and respectful and loving.
We're not in a confrontation here.
Right.
What if she can't get what she needs from me and then tries to get it from somewhere else within the family, maybe brother, dad?
That's her choice.
Yeah.
You're not there to...
Be the conductor.
She should be asking her husband.
Why not?
He's the partner.
Right.
And you can say, I'm sure that you will find the right resources to help you figure this out.
I wish I could tell you.
I don't know.
Now, what's different is that you're not saying, I wish...
You didn't ask me.
Or you're not saying, why should I be the one to tell you?
Every time you come to me, do you think I have any idea?
I don't know anything.
No, there's no need to react.
Because what you're doing is you're disengaging.
Yeah.
Esther, this is going to be life-changing.
Well, you let me know.
I don't know.
I hope.
It's step-step, huh?
Yeah.
At least my own, like I get caught up in this like pattern over and over again.
And I play the same part and she plays the same part.
Correct.
Correct.
And we start, I mean, you know, there are many ways to approach this.
We could do a whole analysis of it.
We could try to understand it.
We could look at the attachment story.
I think today I thought when I listened to your question, I would want to start with actually understanding, diluting the rigidity of the interaction and suggesting some tools that allow you to respond, not from the reactive place in which you either resent angry guilty, feel bad about you, feel bad about her.
It's set already.
That has taken 30 years too.
So how do you speak to an adult and how do you not perform false confidence because you are afraid that if you don't instantly step in, she will be all alone?
Yeah, and so, as a result, you are weeping, feeling all alone yourself.
Nobody needs to be all alone.
One doesn't compensate for the other, And at some point you'll have a conversation with your father, if that's possible.
What do I say?
As I start another life for myself, as I have my own relationship.
You're going to be more needed in the house.
We are about to go through another transition, married or not married, it doesn't matter.
I stepped in when you were off and gone.
At this moment, you will step in as I am about to step out a little more.
Yeah.
I hadn't thought of that.
I felt like everyone was burdened already.
Let me do my part to unburden some people.
You can do that.
The goal is not to never do that.
You'll do that too, but you won't be caught.
Yeah.
You can blend duty and choice.
I hadn't thought that as an option either.
I think right now I choose and then I justify the choice.
Thank you so much.
This has been really eye-opening.
And I felt like We were in this like stuck space and you just kind of like added a jiggle and we're unstuck.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Take care.
You too.
Bye bye.
This was an Esther calling one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.
If you have a question you'd like to explore with ester could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call.
Send her a voice message and ester might just call you.
Send your question to producer at esterperelcom.
Where should we begin with?
Ester perel is produced by magnificent noise.
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Hatton.
Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
Portfolio Should We Begin comes from Neiman Marcus.
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