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Hello, Becky. Hello, Sam.
Hello. Hello. It's so great to be...
You know what I realized?
We all live in New York City.
It's weird that we're not.
We should be in this...
I feel that we should be in the same room.
I know. No, but we've got to make it happen.
And of course, we are all three parents, and we are here today to talk about parenthood.
And this is such a fascinating subject.
Being a parent is a role that changes and evolves throughout our lives, maybe more than any other role.
And we're having this conversation sandwiched between Mother's Day and Father's Day.
So it's a good opportunity to think about our mothers, our fathers, the mother figures and father figures in our lives, and also as our role as parents.
And all three of us are parents.
So let's set the scene.
Becky, we'll start with you.
What kids do you have and how old are they?
So I have a 7 -year -old boy, a 10 -year -old girl, and a 13 -year -old boy.
Okay. So 3 -3 -3, very organized.
And how about you, Sam?
Well, I have a girl who is 14.
I have a boy who is just about to turn 17.
And I have a girl. So I have a girl sandwich around a boy.
So opposite, a girl who's 19.
Okay. And I have two daughters who are 20 and 26.
So I've got the biggest kids.
So let's just jump right in.
And what I want to ask both of you is, what is the most helpful lesson that you've learned along the way, whether from bitter experience or somebody else gave you great advice about how to be a parent?
What do you wish you could tell your brand new parent self?
You know what we received very early on prior to even having kids.
I've been with my husband now for like 28 years, something like that.
And we met a set of parents when kids were kind of pretty far out of our thinking and they gave gave us the greatest advice that we have employed.
And I have to think of a creative way to write it down and make it more shareable, because right now it's not in really shareable form.
But we met this couple and they were having a baby and we were like, oh my God, what is that like?
What do you do? And they were like, well, here's what we're doing.
We're not going to be parents who run around like turning the lights off softly, because in their observable lives, people would would put a pillow over the light switch and turn it off when the child went to sleep.
They were like, they were like, no, no, no. The child has to adjust to you.
You already exist. You don't adjust to the child.
They form around you and your habits and how you live a happy life so that you can all live a happy life together and the quality of your life doesn't have to totally be destroyed.
And we put that into our parenting philosophy like from day one and it was really helpful.
What are some choices that you think you might have made differently if you hadn't heard that advice?
I mean, listen, we definitely turned the temperature in our apartment up to 95 because we thought you weren't allowed to use blankets.
Like we definitely did weird stuff along the way, but we we love to go to restaurants.
We love to eat out.
And so from a very early age, like early, one of the first things we did was go to a restaurant and it was terrible for years.
It was pleasant for other people because as soon as our kids got loud, we would leave the restaurant with them and kind of like back and forth.
them like a hot potato, but it trained them really early that that's our family habit.
That's what we do. That's how we unwind.
And they got really good at it really early, all three of them.
And I think that I give ourselves a little pat on the back for that because even though it was a lot of work, it was 100 % worth it.
Totally paid dividends.
Well, it's also very reassuring because it's you saying to yourself, we don't have to completely transform ourselves and leave all our old selves behind in order to become parents.
Yes. They all understood what respecting other diners looks like very, very early.
And how about you, Becky?
You come at it with two tracks because you have your own individual experience, but then your own professional experience.
So maybe you want to give two pieces of advice or maybe they're the same.
Yeah. There's so many different things that come to mind, but the one that's loudest personally and professionally, I guess, so I'll converge on one, is just that it is not our job to make our kids happy.
oh say more about that yeah I mean I think I think it starts so early I mean I see my baby crying and of course my baby doesn't have language to tell me what's wrong and I might even try the typical things oh do you need your diaper change no you know do you need to be fed no I'm even holding you you're still crying and I think the thing about that moment that takes it from being hard to feeling impossible because I often think in parenting the only two choices you have in certain moments are hard and impossible.
That's all you have, but the gap is actually significant, right?
And hard is much more preferable is that to some degree, if I tell myself a good mom would be able to calm her baby, a good mom would be able to figure this out as defined by calming my child down in the moment.
The moment feels impossible.
Plus, of course, then I just lead with my own, you know, like my own panic because this moment isn't even about showing up for my child.
It's It's about proving to myself that I'm a good mom, right?
And I think that extends to the early years with your kids and obviously into the teenage years.
And again, I'm thinking about what Sam said about the stuff that you do early that you build into the fabric of your relationship with your kid pays dividends.
Although you do have to work, like you were saying, to get there.
You have to really work to get there.
Where, again, in terms of choices, let's say my kid is trying to do a puzzle and of course there are gonna be three or four and you have to do this puzzle for me and I hate this puzzle and you have to finish it for me.
And if I'm prioritizing making them happy and avoiding a meltdown, I'm gonna do it.
And if instead long -term greedy wise, I think, again, this is not gonna impact all of my decisions.
Sometimes I'm just gonna like do the thing to make my kid happy once in a while because I'm like a human being.
But if at least some of the time I'm thinking, you know what, my kid for the rest of their life is going to have to deal with frustration and disappointment and confusion confusion and working for something where they don't yet see the success light.
And so if that's what is going to be adaptive for them forever, the last thing I want to do in their childhood is make them think that the only thing they should optimize around is ease and success and immediate happiness.
And if I'm optimizing around that, well, why wouldn't they always think that they should be optimizing around that, which leads to anxiety and a lot of entitlement and all the things none of us want our kids to be.
But I think it comes down to this idea, especially as a mom, that's just like, that is, that is actually not my job.
That's not what being a good mom is.
That's not even my swim lane.
Like my swim lane is not making my kid comfortable and kind of in the midst of success.
And I think, yeah, from in every age range, we can apply that.
Well, I think so much really good advice.
It applies to adults just as well as children.
It applies sort of in every context as well as sort of the specific context.
Because I think even with adults, sometimes people are like, I need to make anxiety go away.
I shouldn't feel feel uncomfortable.
Everything should come easily.
Why don't I feel happy all the time?
And it's like these negative emotions are really important to a happy life.
And part of it is figuring out how to manage yourself when you're feeling something that you would prefer not to be feeling, which is a big part of life.
So that's a really great point, I think, for us just kind of in every sector of our lives, as well as for specifically thinking about children.
You're the most seasoned parent here, though.
Do you have advice for me and Sam?
Yeah. Tell us. Well, the thing, I mean, this is is the most obvious thing.
But what I realize is that, or maybe it wasn't that obvious because it took me quite a long time to realize it, that the first thing I needed to do was manage myself.
And Becky, this is very much why so much of what you say resonates with me.
It's like, I need to make sure that I get enough sleep.
I need to make sure that I have margins.
Like I, I don't rush well and little kids don't rush well.
I have to get up early enough so that I have time to get myself up and organized before my family gets up because otherwise I just, I can't stay patient.
I can't manage my irritation.
I feel so overwhelmed.
And so a lot of it is just what is it that I need to just manage myself or learning to calm myself down.
And I have to say is that one of my daughters, my younger daughter had tantrums. And these are like, just like you read about like full body on the floor of the restaurant, kicking and screaming out of nowhere, bonkers.
And now she, of course, she's this highly conscientious, highly emotionally regulated kid.
So to everybody who has tantrums out there, somebody told me she will outgrow it.
And I was like, I just simply don't believe it.
That just, that's just too easy, but that is exactly what happened.
But I had to just stay calm, right?
Because the minute I took it up to 11, she would take it up to 14.
And I'm like, I cannot manage your energy and persistence in this.
I had to take it down.
And I mean, I came out of that experience so much more able to emotionally self -regulate, but it took me a while to understand, like start with myself, I think, with a lot of parenting challenges.
That's such a beautiful combination of me and Sam's because Sam was saying like, okay, well, becoming a parent isn't just about completely losing myself.
I actually would say becoming a parent, if we take it on, at least some of the time can become this like profound time of growth.
Oh yeah. Right. Because if I say like, what do I need to show up?
My kids, again, my kid's going to have the tantrum.
It's not my job to avoid tantrums or to end the tantrum right away.
Just like it's not a pilot's job to always avoid turbulence.
Or again, if your pilot's in turbulence, just like, where is there not turbulence?
You're like, oh my goodness, does this pilot not know like how to pilot a plane?
Right. But you're saying, both of you saying it's like, well, what do I need?
Yeah. Right. And what do I know about myself?
And Gretchen, you know, I don't like to rush.
And so that might mean I'm waking up early when I'm getting my kids ready, but I'm not really doing that out of resentment for them.
I'm doing that out of an understanding of who I am right and if then again it's not my job to always keep them calm then again it's like okay well how do I keep myself calm when they're not calm well this is the whole thing that we can't change other people we can only change ourselves but if we change ourselves then relationships change and the atmosphere around us changes and so sometimes we can bring around those changes by working on ourselves yeah family vacations over the summer can often feel, well, like the opposite of a vacation for parents.
I mean, there's a lack of routine and new unfamiliar places and your kid is sleeping in a new bed and it can just make kids feel out of control, which makes them act out of control.
Cue lots of meltdowns and a lot of frustration.
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Find out how much at Airbnb .com slash host. So what do you think just in your own experience, what is your biggest day -to -day challenge these days?
Because it changes over time.
But what right now is the thing, the biggest parenthood challenge that you're facing in your own life?
And how do you try to manage it?
Well, in our life, we have a college -age daughter.
And my son is applying to college.
He's in his junior year of high school.
And so we're in the - That's intense.
We're in the college mix.
And I think the main challenge, our expectations, like my husband and I grew up in Canada where the system is very different.
So we have a very calm approach to the idea of college, but that does not match the fervor of high school college energy that is swirling around our son.
And our son is actually a pretty calm person.
So we're just just managing emotions and expectations in a way.
I think that we used to think that babies were the hardest stage.
You're always like, baby, you're working all the time.
You're just going for it.
Every second is filled.
But when they're teenagers, it's a much more emotional load.
I find it to be much more work of just managing emotions, like keeping everybody on a plane and letting him know that our expectation is not that he goes to do a thing that he doesn't want to do at all or even pick a career at the age of 16 going on 17, but rather to see college as an exploration of self.
And that is just bending his brain around that conceptually.
It's really challenging.
It's really, really challenging.
I literally broke out into a sweat just talking So is there any mantra you use or anything that you do to keep yourself on that?
Because you know, sort of how you want it to go, but like how to stay on that?
We just keep I don't know, we just keep pushing that message.
We just keep cranking that message.
Like, you know how you have to introduce a new food 65 times in order to get them to eat a red pepper.
We're just like, what if college was just you trying on different personalities until you find one you like?
It's just a constant conversation, constant conversation.
And then within there, we're like, should we go to Pennsylvania this weekend and look at four whole colleges?
And he's like, what?
It's a lot. It's a lot.
That's intense for sure.
It is. How about you, Becky?
You got younger kids, so you're not in that yet.
I'm not in that yet.
I do feel like there's this kind of golden time I'm in and that like we're past napping.
My kids can rally and go out to dinner after a long day, but we're not in college stress time yet.
Right. I was actually just telling the story to one of my colleagues.
And so it's the thing that's top of mind.
I think one of the most challenging things for me, I mean, I work five days a week, we're building this heart of this like movement that I feel like is good inside.
And obviously at the same time, it's deeply important to me to be with my kids.
Like, I feel like we can't build a whole movement around parenting and be absent parents.
That's not, you know, anything that would feel good to me.
And yet one of the things that can happen is I know I can get really into what what I call like efficiency and productivity mode.
And I do believe that efficiency and productivity are inherently oppositional with relationship building.
And so if you're doing one, you're probably not doing the other.
And I, I can get really almost like off on my productivity mode.
And I'm like, okay, so I'm going to work until this.
And then I'm going to go home and be with one of my kids.
I'm going to go to one of my kids game and then I'm going to see my husband.
Right. And the other day, my son, my oldest asked me to come home a little early to help him with something, you know, academically.
And I was like, sure.
No problem. Like, again, I'm like, I can calendar that in.
I can do it. I can move things around.
Great. And I go into his room and I was like, okay, let's, I think it was math.
Like, bring up, bring up your math homework.
He literally called me out.
He, and I got nervous.
Let me tell you, he goes, mom, sit down on my bed.
That's what he said.
And I was like, what are you going to do?
I literally was like, what are you about to tell me?
Oh my goodness. Is that something you'd say to him?
Did you do? Maybe. And I was like, okay.
And he just goes, how was your day?
That's literally what he said.
And I was like, oh, but I still was nervous.
Like I was like, what is what?
Oh, my day was good.
He's like, and he remembered, he's like, how's this meeting?
I was like, it was good.
How was, and then I was just like, I guess I'm going to mirror this.
Like, how was your day?
And he's like, oh, I did this.
And he told me some things and then it was kind of silent.
And then he goes, okay, do you want to do my, my math work now?
Yeah. And I feel like what he was saying to me in the kindest way was like, that's, I'm going to cry.
Like, let's, let's connect, not on a timeline and not because you slotted it in and not because it's productive based on your values.
Like when you do it from that place, it doesn't feel good.
It feels like you're like checking it off and just chill out for a second and get off your calendar and sit down.
And so I feel like with all my kids and my husband, like all these relationships that matter matter to me so much, figuring out how to like really drop down into that and not even come into those relationships from a productivity efficiency mindset is currently very top of mind for me.
That's beautiful. That's such a sophisticated response from your child.
That's next level. That really resonates.
That really resonates.
One of the things that I do towards towards that end is whenever somebody comes or goes from our apartment, I always get up and give them like a kiss or a hug because I was realizing it's just such a bad feeling when people are coming and going and you feel like people are just like can barely look up from their reading or whatever they're doing.
And they're just sort of grunting hello and goodbye.
And it's just not the tender, attentive atmosphere that I wanted to have because it's not efficient because you're like, oh my gosh, I'm tired.
I just sat down. I'm like with my newspaper.
Now I got to get up and come over to you and it's not efficient, but it's actually incredibly important.
You know, I always think I don't want my, our dogs to be so much more excited to see somebody than I seem to be.
And it really does.
It's funny how quickly you get used to having like this little moment of connection.
And even though it is a hassle sometimes to like come running when somebody's about to go or coming in, it really does.
It's so nice. It really changes the way you feel like you engage with each other.
Yeah. I had to ask my children to hug me more.
Yeah. I was like, Like, you know what, I'm just going to ask them for more physical attention than what they've been giving me as teenagers because I miss their chubby baby hands.
You know, they're always like touching you and falling asleep on you and leaning on you when they're little kids and when they're at the ages they are now.
It doesn't happen. Like I impose it on them, but I'm like, I need you each to just find me and come up to me and put your arms around me at different points during the day.
And they're like, oh, God, they're like, fine.
But they do it and it really helps.
helps. Like, it's really nice.
And I bet it helps them too, even though they will not gratify you and tell you that at those ages.
Of course. Of course.
Well, it's interesting.
I wrote this book, Life in Five Senses.
It's all about tapping into the senses.
And one of them was touch, which we kind of don't talk about as much, like how you can tap into the sense of touch, even for things like massage.
I'm like, where are all the research studies that are done about the benefits of massage?
Because we do get so much from touch. And that is one of the really really powerful things about having little children is just the constant, the touching and the hugging.
And there's nothing like a baby falling asleep in your lap or.
Yeah. And so that's great that you're just like, this is missing, but I can just ask for it.
Yeah. They will relinquish their hugs.
They surrender to it a little bit.
One thing I struggle with, and maybe you guys do too, because it feels like maybe it's just inherent, but maybe you don't, Becky, maybe this is what you are here to solve for the rest of us, which is the uncertainty of parenting.
I'm like, because I have a new puppy and it's always like, should she eat now or later?
And if she's ready for a walk in 30 minutes, there should be 40 minutes.
Are we developing this bad habit?
Am I reinforcing something?
If I give her a treat now, like it's all this uncertainty.
And I remember with parenting, it was like that times a hundred.
What if I do this? What if I do that?
What does this mean?
Is this going to last forever?
Do I need to do research?
Is this a problem? And I just felt like the decision fatigue is very wearing as a parent.
And I feel like that just doesn't go away because as children grow, they present you with a completely new set of situations when you're like, I hadn't thought about this yet, but here it is.
I don't know. I feel like uncertainty is an issue.
I'll just take a stand and saying, I don't know if I'm going to solve that for anyone I haven't thought about.
So just like you might've invited the wrong guest. Becky, you're not the magic.
You're not the oracle that has every single answer that we need.
Replace uncertainty with certainty.
That might be someone else.
No, but I do. And maybe something I have to offer is just a different framework around it, right?
Probably that's what we learn as adults.
Nobody has solutions for anything they just have different ways of thinking about it which ends up feeling a little more freeing and less anxiety producing which is and it almost was my answer it's interesting Gretchen you said that too what I would tell a new parent which is that you don't have to do all of your parenting in any one moment any one moment does not define who you are you don't have to get it all in and I think some of the anxiety around because I remember this especially when I had younger ones I don't know like when my baby like didn't nap or when I didn't get the feeding right
Right. The panic and like existential dread I felt could only be explained by some unconscious assumption that all of my parenting was done.
I am just locked into whatever I just did forever.
There will never be another way.
That is how it will always be.
Even though I'd wake up the next morning and be like, oh, the feeding schedule doesn't make sense.
I'll do it differently, right?
And same thing as our kids get older.
Like I say yes to a more lenient screen time.
And like it might be messy.
My kid's going to protest because it's a new decision.
But again, it's not my job to keep my kid happy.
So that's always a useful thought.
I can make a different decision tomorrow.
I can tell my kid, you know what?
I wish I didn't say that.
You know what? I've been operating under this assumption.
I read something. I learned something.
I watched a workshop.
I realized something and here's how we're going to do it going forward. And no, I'm not promising that's forever either.
In a week, I might change my mind again and we'll figure it out from there.
And so I think the dread around the uncertainty and all the decisions conversions on some level we can't solve through certainty right and i also think the more we try to solve uncertainty with certainty that's just like a great recipe for anxiety right because we can't ever make the uncertain certain but we can build up our belief that we can cope with things not going well and that we can always make changes well and this is like what you were saying sam about well you've got to introduce this food 65 times or like this is a process i wish i had had that thought more that you articulated because i
think that's very helpful which is it's a long long game.
It's a long game. Like, I feel like it's okay.
I mean, it's really hard to say, I don't know.
It's hard for all of us to say, yeah, I really don't know.
And so we just, because I don't know, we just, my husband and I had these jobs and we had the, all these kids and we were just like, we have to tell them when we don't know.
And we just have to be flawed. And we have to say, Hey guys, we're just operating with the best information we have at this moment.
We could be wrong about this.
We don't know. We really don't know, but we're going to try this.
And everybody, we would just try to get buy -in, but like kind of a buy -in, family buy -in on like, I don't know, man, let's, why don't we just move forward as a unit?
Okay, well, so here's a side note question.
Do you think, this is something that's occurred to me sometimes, sometimes parents are so so vehement in their opposition to something that's some other parenting decision that somebody has made, you know, in a way that feels disproportionate.
Sometimes I wonder if it is, they have to convince themselves, I know that I am right.
And therefore I know that you are wrong because in that process, I feel reassured because a lot of times I'm like, why do people care so much about this, that, or the other thing?
I'm like, it's their kids.
So be it. Or what do you know what I mean?
Right. Yeah. I mean, I think actually what you're talking about is something much more global than parenting.
It's like whenever we can't be curious about someone else, there's something about that we're really literally, people say defensive, like it's a bad thing.
And it can be interpersonally, but like if I'm being defensive, there must be something vulnerable I feel like I need to defend.
Right. If I can't be curious about why someone is making a parenting decision, or why would someone move out of New York City, or why would someone quit their job without having another job, what I'm really saying has nothing to do with them.
It's that part in myself that I see in you, I have to keep so far away.
And my daily zen requires me to keep that so far away that that's what I'm defending against. It has nothing to do with your screen time decision.
Yeah, no, exactly. And Becky, you talk about how people reparent themselves through their own parenting.
Just explain that briefly.
I think that's a really fascinating idea.
Reparenting, the first time I heard that word, I have to be honest, I was like, that's a little much for me.
I don't really know what that means or like a little eye roll or something.
And I think people think reparenting is the process of like telling a therapist how bad your mom was.
You know, first of all, I wouldn't even call that good therapy.
You know, there's nothing that useful about just complaining about people.
But I think reparenting is the idea that I as an adult can start to give myself things I probably always needed and never got in my early years, right?
The early years have a massively disproportionate impact on how, you know, you operate in the world going forward. And I believe every generation of parent loves their kids and is doing the best they can with the resources they had.
And what I also believe is for a lot of kids in various ways, that wasn't exactly what they needed.
And that doesn't even have to be anyone's fault.
Like the fault doesn't have to be here.
But as an adult, you know, I can start to quote, reparent myself, meaning, I don't know, how do I relate to my vulnerable feelings?
And if I wasn't given what I might have needed or would have been ideal for me, What can I do now that I'm an adult to develop a different type of relationship, to build different coping skills?
Because if we don't do that as an adult, we do end up just getting triggered by those exact same things in our kids and end up just passing along our struggles to them, as opposed to kind of this opportunity of like, wait, can I give myself what I didn't need?
Can I cope with it in a different way?
And then can I, as a result, also give my kids something very different?
To give you just like a very, very concrete example of that, my yoga instructor, who was a 60 -something single man, would buy toys for himself because he's just like, I just wanted them so badly as a child and we had no money for toys.
And now like, sometimes I just, if I see something that like, I always really wanted or that really appeals to me, I just buy it.
And I was like, well, what do you do with it?
And he goes like, you know, I just, I have a shelf and I have my toys there.
And I just thought that's heartbreaking, but great.
Yeah. He just was like, this is something I didn't get and now I can have it.
So I'm going to allow myself to have it.
And just to double click on that, like the more someone like that, that's just one example, obviously, but it's a beautiful concrete one.
It's so concrete, yeah.
Yeah, this is the kind of situation where let's say you grew up in a home where play and kind of your own enjoyment and exploration and creativity was really shut down as just unimportant or kind of frivolous, right?
And again, no blaming parents.
My guess is they were brought up by someone or in some very difficult situation where that all made sense, right?
right? Then let's say this person grows up and has a kid and their kid, you know, sees them after work and is like, daddy, can you draw with me?
And the dad's like, stop.
Like that's so stupid.
Like I have to do stuff, right?
Why that's happening is essentially a parent is like, okay, well, what did I learn about play and creativity and doing something again, quote, nonproductive?
Well, I learned that was wrong.
It got me a lot of shame and blame in in my family.
So I had to learn from an adaptive place to shut that down.
And while that was adaptive in my early years, I'm watching it not be so adaptive now.
By the way, I might still say to my kid, I don't have time.
I have another work call.
That could happen. But we all know the difference isn't what you say.
It's kind of the how.
Yes. Oh, sorry, sweetie.
I'd love to play with you.
But I have this call.
It's very different than what's wrong with me.
Why would you ask me?
And ironically, the more you kind of, quote, reparent for this person, maybe it's, I'm going I'm going to buy myself, you know, a coloring book or something.
And who knows if I'm going to do it, but I'm just going to give myself permission.
Or for me, I've noticed I have a lot easier time connecting with my kids when I'm reading a novel.
I've said to myself, you know, Becky, what the most important thing to do is right now, read my total beach read right now.
It's kind of nonproductive.
It's just kind of connecting to another part of me.
As I quote, reparent myself or work on something like that, it's easier then with your kids to show up in a way you're proud because the gap isn't kind of so wide between what they're asking for and what you learned was kind of a louder of value.
I'm learning. I feel like I'm learning so much right now.
This is great. You're inviting me.
Oh my God. I'm going to be quiet now.
I need to hear more from Sam.
Yeah. Sam, I need to think about what this is for me.
Does anything come to mind for you about your own reparenting?
I have to think about it too.
I mean, I definitely, for myself, I'm the product of two teenagers.
Like my parents were in high school when they had me.
Wow. So that's. And I'm an only child.
So I grew up and it was the 70s.
Honestly, like we just, we were reparenting and reparenting.
Like we were parenting, we were free.
We were entirely free range.
And so in a way reparenting, I'm trying to, like without being conscious of it, I'm definitely, I enjoy mothering my kids so much and I enjoy having like being there for every moment of their lives in a way that it just was like not it was not really de rigueur like it just wasn't part of my existence great so it's all great and I always was loved it's not that it's more like it's been such a joy to be able to live that life in a place of like chaos too like three big voices and like lots of activity all the time.
Whereas I, myself was like a very reserved.
I constantly read. I literally like lived in a belfry and stared at the children playing on the streets.
Like my kids taught me how to fight, how to argue in a way.
Do you know what I mean?
They taught me, they showed me that you can have an argument with someone and it doesn't break your relationship.
Did that trigger you though back in the day?
Cause I feel like our Our triggers are our teachers around reparenting.
Everything that triggers us is something, some story.
It's for sure, it's like emotional, but not in a bad, it's more like, oh, like it's more, it fills my buckets.
Like I'm like, oh, okay.
Like you don't have to, arguments with the people you love don't sever your love relationships.
They actually gets better, makes it better.
This is a perfect segue to a question that I wanna ask before I ask the last question and about what are your try this at home suggestions.
Okay, I've been collecting secrets of adulthood that I've learned the hard way through time and experience, sort of like things that I would tell my children or that I would tell myself.
Things like misadventures sometimes make the best memories.
It's often like the car trip that goes horribly wrong that everybody is laughing about for years later or something like the days are long, but the years are short, which is just about the experiencing of parenting, how we have these double timelines that are constantly going.
But I feel like, Sam, you just said one, And though now I can't remember how you said it so beautifully, which is like we can argue without breaking that you said it better.
Do either of you have any other secrets of adulthood like that?
Words of wisdom that you've learned or that you tell your kids?
Like you get what you get and you don't get upset.
All these folk ones that we say.
I have to think about that.
I would upgrade that one though, Gretchen.
You get what you get and you're allowed to be upset because, again, it's not my job to make you happy.
You get what you get and you're allowed to be upset.
because you wanted the chocolate cupcake instead of the vanilla one, but they ran out.
Yeah, I like that. Yeah, because I think that's a good example where we're like, but my kid's freaking out about the chocolate cupcake.
Like, who cares? A cupcake's a cupcake.
But what we forget is, like, let's say our kid is now 30 and they call us and they're like, yeah, I'm in this job that I'm really, like, gunning for and I love.
And I don't know, everyone got a promotion in my class but me and, like, whatever.
Like, I feel like that would be weird. I'd be like, okay, I'm not trying to say you should spiral into oblivion, but, like, you've no reaction, you know?
Right. So the whole idea of like you get what you get and you shouldn't be upset, like, is that useful in a doorway?
I never thought about that.
My husband of five years left me and has been cheating on me.
But you know what? You get what you get and don't be upset.
I'd be like, that's weird. That's weird. You've no reaction.
He's been cheating on you with your best friend.
Like, that's weird, you know?
And so what we miss is our kids have huge reactions.
First of all, that's just in their world.
A cupcake to them that's not the right cupcake probably is like an affair to us.
Like that's the equivalent to them.
But also they're just, born without the feelings and none of the skills.
So the outsized reaction is like a call not to not have the feeling, but to learn how to deal with the feeling, which you don't deal with feelings by not having feelings.
It doesn't even make sense.
Yes. Adding to that or on the side of that, I do say to my kids, some anxiety is normal.
Yeah, of course. You can't live your life without anxiety of any kind.
I'm like, you wouldn't want to live that life.
So yeah, they're like, I'm very stressed.
I shouldn't be this stressed.
I'm like, you should be this stressed.
It's a really big test. It's very stressful.
Yeah. I went to a fascinating anxiety lecture, and they were saying, people are saying, my child's too stressed.
I don't want them to have all this stress.
But if you talk to the parents whose children do not feel stressed, they definitely want them to feel more stressed.
A little bit is what keeps us working and managing our reputation and worrying about what people think of us.
Yeah. If you're always operating at a level of benign happiness, your life is not a quality.
Okay, so final thing, and I can't wait to hear your answers.
So we always ask our guests, is there a try this at home suggestion that you would suggest that listeners try?
Just something that they could do as part of their ordinary day.
Something that doesn't take a lot of time, energy or money, but that has really worked for you in your life as a parent.
Well, I always eat first in my family.
I feed myself. I wake up a little earlier than everybody else, and I put on the oxygen mask before I put it on anybody else.
I'm like, this is what I make myself a nice coffee.
I set my coffee machine up the night before so that all I have to do is press a button in the morning, and I do it like it's my religion every single night.
Paint a picture. Say more about what this ritual looks like for you.
I really want to be able to picture you in your kitchen.
Before I go to bed, I set up my coffee machine so that it is like one click in the morning.
because it's the morning and you can't be bothered I don't want to, I don't want to be pouring water I spill the water, anytime the coffee is not prepared from the night before is sort of a weird morning and I always mess it up somehow so I like to do that's something that I do even if it's 2 o 'clock in the morning when I'm going to bed I do that it's my future self I get the paper, I put the coffee machine on, I get the paper, I turn on NPR and I make myself a beautiful beautiful omelet of some sort.
I make myself eggs.
If it's this morning, it was 5 .30 in the morning, just because that's when I woke up.
I wake up often in the fives pretty naturally.
I don't like it. I wish I could sleep longer, but okay.
Oh, okay. Well, we can all be texting each other at 5 .30 in the morning.
Yeah, we could. And I just sit, I read the paper, I put my little readers on, I drink my coffee, and then I'm ready to do whatever.
I feel ready to take on the day.
I feel responsible and ready.
I feel like I've taken a breath.
I've understood the context of the day news -wise and I feel fed because I'm so, I'm always very anxious when I'm hungry and I know that about myself.
I can't sort my thoughts out.
I can't be hungry. So that's what I do.
That's how I start the day.
And it sounds like you're really consistent about that.
Very consistent. It just doesn't matter where I am in the world.
That is my consistent routine.
routine. Did it take you a while to sort of figure that out?
Or were you like pretty certain that this is what you needed?
Very, almost completely certain from the beginning.
I was like, must, must be fed or I can't do, I won't do anything right today if I don't start the day correctly.
Like for myself. I love that.
In some form. That's a great one.
Thank you. And Becky, what about you?
I feel like the most important relationship strategy we have with our kids, with a partner at work, anywhere is repair.
And so I think, again, kind of a lot of these themes come together where Sam's saying conflict can actually bring you closer.
I think if it's done well, it does.
It allows you to know more about the other person and more about yourself.
And you're not going to have to do all your best parenting in one moment.
Like we all struggle or make mistakes.
And I think the thing that feels heaviest is the story we tell ourselves after.
Oh, I messed up my kid forever.
I'm such a monster.
If anyone ever saw me or how did someone give me licensed a parent.
And if we just tell ourselves a slightly different story, which is, okay, I'm definitely not proud of what I just did.
That is true. And what is equally true is that one moment does not define me or my relationship with my kid.
And actually now I can do what I heard in this podcast is the most important strategy of all is repairing.
Like had I not messed up, I couldn't repair.
So there's definitely an opportunity here and I can go to my kid and, you know, take responsibility for what you did.
Hey, sorry, I yelled.
I'm sure that felt scary.
I was frustrated and, you know, definitely working on managing my frustration so it doesn't come out and yelling.
And I wish I had talked to you more calmly, right?
And I think it's just as true without kids.
The difficult moments in our life that go unrepaired, it's actually not the moment that sticks with us.
It's the fact that it was not repaired that sticks with us.
And it's heavy and we carry it with resentment in our marriages and it affects the next one -on -one we have with our manager because we felt publicly criticized in an overly harsh way.
And, you know, it's never too late to say and work, hey, I remember a couple of weeks ago, I think I was really hot in that meeting and that wasn't fair to you.
Or, hey, I didn't listen to your side of the story and I'm sorry about that.
It can be so short, but I feel like that's the thing that is very doable.
And And even, I just always love the idea on a podcast or any big group, like if every single person repairs on the same day, I just feel like, well, there'll be like a levity, you know, in the world a little bit.
The next interaction that person has with the next person will probably be more generous.
And so, I don't know, I find that very doable and very hopeful.
That's exactly the word I was thinking.
It's very hopeful because it means any one deed can't destroy.
it's a process and it's a relationship and with attention we can move in the right direction so that is very helpful it models faltering and repairing like it models humility humility and adulthood in a really constructive way like i just don't think that our kids want or need us to be perfect oh ever and it's like showing them that the real portrait of a human being has faults and and anxiety and anger and happiness and laughter and joy, like it's all in the mixture of being a human person and it's all okay.
That's exactly right.
And normal. We say, I think a way to also add a little levity is I always, whenever my kids are like doing math homework or a puzzle or like it all is the same because we, in our family say like perfect is creepy and there's just something about it that my kids still will be like, well, and do great on this thing, but I'm learning this.
And you know, in our family, we know perfect is creepy.
And so I'm going to figure out next time.
It's like now it just become this thing that if perfect is creepy, it's clearly not desired.
Forget like, you're like, it's not possible.
It's like also would just be weird. Like it's just, it's creepy.
It's like, we're not robots interacting with other robots.
And the fact that we mess up and act out is kind of the essence of being human.
But the other part of being human can, we all want our kids to quote, take accountability.
And so for a parent who said, I've never really repaired because saying to your kid, I'm sorry I yelled, but if you just got on on your shoes the first time, it wouldn't have happened.
That's not a repair.
Right. Wow. But if we've never really taken accountability, hey, I'm sorry I yelled, period, right?
Then why would our kid, our five -year -old, take, quote, accountability for anything they do?
And so there is something generative.
We do that, and that is how kids learn not to have so much shame in their struggles.
And so, yeah, I'm just, I'm a lover.
I'm a buyer of repair, you know, for sure.
Sure. Love it. Well, and one of the kind of a very different level of seriousness, the hack that I remind myself of is if my children are really interested in something, I try to be interested in it.
I even watch one episode or I try to listen or if I know they're both really into like scams, you know, and there's all these podcasts about like scam.
I'm like, I discovered another scam podcast for you or whatever, just to like say, even if in the end, it's not for me, I want to try to understand what's interesting to you.
Or like if they're showing me something they think is funny, trying to understand why it's funny, or if they think something is whatever, instead of saying like, well, you should like what I like, because what I like is the best stuff.
But really try to enter into their worlds.
And like, I got really into Love is Blind, because I was like, I don't really like those shows, but you say it's good.
So I'll watch it. And then I'm like, actually, we have a lot to talk about.
This is this is interesting.
Yeah. So I think that's something that's been helpful.
And then you and then it draws you together, because it shows them that you value their opinion, that you're curious to try what think is good.
Yeah, I love that. Well, Sam, Becky, thank you so much. This has been such a fascinating conversation.
It was so much fun to talk to both of you.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
This really was a total pleasure.
Agree. This is so fun.
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