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Hey everyone, it's Rachel. As you know, every Sunday this summer, we've been bringing you episodes of our colleague show, Modern Love.
We're doing that for just a couple more weeks.
And for this week, our host, Anna Martin, is here to tell us what's on the show.
Hi, Anna. Hey, Rachel. So tell me, what do you have for us this week?
Yeah, Rachel, I wonder what comes to mind when I say these two words.
All right, here we go. Male loneliness. Men get lonely?
I know, it's crazy, right? But no, but in all seriousness, certainly I feel like the societal-wide problem of...
Being lonely has certainly grown as a concern, at least in my periphery.
Absolutely same. Yeah. And specifically for men, there is actually data that backs up this idea of Increasing male loneliness.
There's a survey I'm thinking of from last year that showed that 15% of men reported having zero close friends, like no close friends.
That's five times higher than surveys from 1990.
So men have less friends these days. that is really genuinely quite sad.
It is sad. And it's one thing to hear those statistics, but this week I talked to someone who realized he was actually becoming a statistic.
I talked to the writer Sam Graham Felsen.
He wrote about his experience, his loneliness ultimately for the New York Times Magazine.
Sam has this very moving, very sweet story about growing up with all of these close friendships with other boys, other young men.
But then when he reached adulthood... sort of looking around and realizing he was deeply, deeply lonely.
But the thing about Sam that I find so inspiring really is that he decided to do something about it.
I'm really excited for you to hear this story.
I'm excited to hear it too, Anna. Thank you so much.
And everyone, here's this week's episode of Modern Love.
Love now and always. Did you fall in love last night?
The love was stronger than anything else.
For the love of love. And I love you more than anything.
Just love. Love. From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love. This week, I'm talking to the writer Sam Graham-Felson.
He just wrote a piece for The New York Times Magazine called...
Where have all my deep male friendships gone?
It wasn't like one day I woke up and was like, oh my God, I'm lonely.
But it was kind of like that. But I always thought like, oh, well, that's something that applies to other guys because I have a million friends.
I can't imagine ever feeling lonely. And then, like, sometime in my 30s, I'm like, wait a minute, I think I'm actually kind of feeling lonely.
You know, my wife... is a wonderful person, the best listener ever.
That's why I fell in love with her in the first place.
But like at a certain point, she's basically like, dude, just go hang out with your friends.
Just call them and hang out with them. I'm like, you're right.
You're right. Of course, then I didn't call them and hang out with them.
Yeah. And I did every single thing except for hang out with my friends.
Sam told me it felt difficult to just go hang out with his friends again.
And to try to understand why it felt so hard, he decided to write about it.
And full disclosure, his wife's an editor at the magazine.
I was like, look, if I'm going to write a whole thing about how...
You know, I somehow let myself slip into loneliness despite having a wealth of, you know, close friendships.
I feel like I owe it to myself to try to actually do something about it.
I wanted to know what Sam did to get his friends back into his life, what it meant for a sense of well-being, and how it changed what he thought it meant to be a man.
Here's our conversation. Sam Graham-Felsen, welcome to Modern Love.
Thanks so much for having me. about this piece you wrote for the New York Times Magazine.
It's called Where Have All My Deep Male Friendships Gone?
And we'll get into your story, but I want to start by asking, had you felt lonely before?
Had you felt this kind of... Or was this new?
It was totally new. I mean, you know, my whole life... until, you know, I became lonely, I saw myself as an extrovert.
And one of my problems like when I was younger was like over obligating myself and making too many plans and then having to cancel on friends and having them get mad at me.
And from a young age, I remember I found my report card from fourth grade.
And my teacher, it's really funny that teachers wrote stuff like this back then.
She was like, you know, Sam, he's way too much of a social butterfly.
I fear I may have to clip his wings. Oh, my God.
First of all, what? I know. She literally wrote that.
But that's who I was. What did friendship mean to you when you were that social butterfly in fourth grade?
Fourth grade was when I really remember having a friendship that was so intense, it almost felt like falling in love.
Hmm. There was a boy named Andrew in my class who, he was the first kid who I had ever seen comb his hair and put like gel in his hair.
Oh, my God, that's cool. Like before that, it was just like everyone woke up with bedhead and went, at least the boys did, went to school with like crazy bedhead, you know, like Alexander's horrible no good day.
And that was me. And then, like, you know, there was this kid who you know, put gel in his hair, and he had these T-shirts called Hypercolor, where if you blew on them, they changed color.
Okay, hang on. This was a thing in the early 90s.
He had a Swatch watch. It's kind of swagged out.
And by man, I mean boy. He was, yes. Nine-year-old boy.
But I remember vividly, like, I had no concept of what was fashion what was cool or anything like that and i remember seeing this kid and i was like this guy i wouldn't i want to be like this guy and it ended up being this thing where i felt like I was at his house every single day after school.
Right. We were just, like, hanging out constantly.
We... It's funny, I hadn't thought about this in years, but we had this thing that we called the Babe Olympics.
Oh, no. where both of us had a crush on Christina Applegate from Married With Children or whatever. and Jennifer Connelly from The Rocketeer.
And we would create these wacky competitions where the winner got to go on some fictional date with Jennifer Connelly or whatever.
So, like, some of it would be sports, like playing one-on-one basketball, but, like, some of it would be, like, who can drink, you know, the most water in one minute or, you know, like these obsessions.
And I just remember being absorbed in his world, introducing him to my world.
And I just remember laughing all the time and crying.
I mean, but what you're saying is, in addition to the worlds, you know, of him introducing you to his interests, right, his world, you introducing... him to your interest, you are creating, as you're saying, the world of your relationship, right?
And I want to go back, you said this was a friendship, the first one with this guy, Andrew, right?
Where it felt akin to falling in love. And you're so young, but do you remember like...
Can you tell me more about that connection?
Was it like, I want to be with this guy all the time.
I trust this guy. Like, what was behind that?
Yeah, so the reason why I compare it to falling in love is because I know what it's like to fall in love.
I fell in love with my wife very quickly, and I remember just that feeling of like, nine out of ten of my thoughts are about this person, you know?
And all I want to do is hang out with this person and...
I can't wait until the school day is over so that I have time with this guy to go do our thing and make prank calls to –
Babe Olympics. And go back to the Babe Olympics for round 900 of the Babe Olympics.
And it was also the feeling of like, jealousy, frankly.
Like if he was hanging out with other people, I started to be like, well, does he like those people more than me?
And actually, what ended our friendship was that he got a girlfriend.
And that was totally devastating. And it's an interesting kind of like... of what happens later in life when people get married and end up sidelining their friends.
But he completely sidelined me after he got a girlfriend.
I remember one day, like... And that was when?
In middle school? That was in seventh grade.
Okay. And I remember one day... You know, he wasn't, you know, answering my calls or whatever.
So I just showed up at his door and I was like, hey, what's going on?
Why aren't we, you know, let's hang out.
And his girlfriend was there unbeknownst to me.
And he literally, it was like out of a movie, he did the thing where he shut the door in my face and he's like, go away.
Wow, wait, stop. What did that feel like?
Horrible. It was akin to being dumped. Yeah.
I do remember walking home. He lived probably like a seven-minute walk from my house, and I lived on a hill.
And I remember just like... walking home up that damn hill and my legs would always be so tired when I was a kid walking up this hill and just like feeling like each step was like heavy.
And the reason why it was so hard is because, yeah, again, like, the degree of closeness I felt with these friends was...
Almost like, it almost felt like being in a monogamous relationship. a feeling that I think is, that I resonate with.
And yeah, I'm curious if like other people in your school or whatever have saw that intense connection, what did they think of it?
How was it perceived, do you think? I think at that point we were young enough that the homophobia stuff hadn't started to really like you know creep up yet but certainly like by the time I was in seventh grade, eighth grade, and beyond.
It was totally... It was constant hearing... people make homophobic kind of like insults.
And, you know, some of it was teasing. Some of it was like worse than teasing.
Right. Because people saw, like, you know, how close I was to some of my male friends.
People used to call me Sam Gay. And, you know, who is this guy who's so obsessed with his male friends?
Like... Let's call him gay, you know? So, like, all of that stuff.
But I remember, like... At one point, there used to be this thing called a slam book where it was basically like a proto... social media where it was those old composition notebooks with the marble black and white cover.
Someone would create... one of these things, and they would write a name on each page of the notebook.
And it would just float around school, and people would write anonymously whatever they thought about that person.
Wow. It is a physical, it's a burn book.
I mean, this is a reference to Mean Girls, I think, but yeah.
And I remember, like, seeing in that Burn book, in the Slam book...
Somebody wrote, Sam and Rob are swinging on each other's nuts like Tarzan.
Mm-hmm. Rob was like, you know, one of my closest friends.
Tell me how you and Rob met. He plays a really big part in the piece you wrote.
I think I was in sixth grade. I was 10 or 11.
There was a kid who had invited me to a sleepover birthday party.
I hated going to sleepover birthday parties.
I'm really laying it all out on the line here.
It's totally endearing. I'm like, I get it.
But like, I... I hated going to these parties because all the boys liked to watch horror movies, and I hated horror movies.
And literally like a month before I had just been to another sleepover party, where they had shown this movie called Child's Play 2, which is so stupid.
And I'm like, how could I have thought this movie was scary?
But it's basically like this doll. who is possessed by a demon and then ends up stabbing everybody with a butcher knife.
To be honest, that sounds terrifying. Okay.
But anyway, that's the movie they were watching, and there wasn't, like, another room that it could go into.
So I just, like, I found a... I found his phone and I called my mom and I was like, I'm sick.
Can you come pick me up? And I'm sure they could tell I wasn't sick.
And it was totally embarrassing. And I remember crying in the car because I was so embarrassed, but I was also like, thank God I can go home.
You know? So anyway, so I really didn't want to go to this sleepover party.
And, you know, it was, like, probably 11 p.m., like...
We'd eaten tons of pizza, made your own, make your own ice cream sundaes.
And then everyone, like, goes into the den in his house to start watching a movie.
And before they even picked the movie, I'm just like, I gotta get out of here.
I started panicking. And this other kid at the party, his name was Robb, I don't feel like watching movies.
I just feel like playing Nintendo in the other room.
And I was like, oh, that's my opportunity.
Totally. So I just followed him in there.
And... he was playing a game called Final Fantasy.
And I still remember it because it was like the seminal moment in my life.
And he's like, dude, do you want to play?
Like, I've been playing for a while. I'm like, no, no, no, do your thing.
Like, you know... And by the way, my parents were hippies and like we didn't have video games.
I didn't even know how to play. I was just happy to watch him.
And I don't even remember what we talked about, but we stayed up all night.
And I remember really connecting to him, but also just feeling like he saved me.
And I don't, know if he was conscious that he'd done it, but I felt that he had saved me.
And I felt this overwhelming gratitude towards him.
And I quickly realized this guy is unlike anyone I've ever hung out with before.
He was really into philosophy. He was really into... It's young to be into philosophy.
It was young to be into philosophy. He also had similar interests.
Like, we both were obsessed with the Boston Celtics and things like that.
But... He was intellectually and morally serious in a way that, like, none of my other friends were at that age.
And I just remember, like, thinking like, wow. this guy is operating on another level and I want to be a part of that level.
I was really concerned with being cool, right?
Like, I was very concerned with, you know, trying to fit in, and he was the opposite.
Like, he was wearing khakis. Literally nobody wore khakis except for him.
He looked like an old man. And I was just so impressed of like, this guy doesn't care about being cool.
I care deeply, but I wish I was the kind of person who didn't care about being cool.
And that was part of the world that I wanted to enter into.
Yeah. His world of, like, just being an individual.
Hmm. And I wasn't quite an individual yet, and he helped me to become an individual.
You know, you're doing something I think is very difficult, which is describing why you love someone.
I mean, I wonder, you're having all of these, you're spending so much time with him, you're learning from him.
What do you feel like you were learning about friendship at this point?
I think Rob helped me see that a friendship can be as serious as emotionally as a romantic relationship.
It can be as serious emotionally as a family relationship. kinship, it's a big deal.
But I think the other thing I just learned from these intense friendships is like, Like, I was having the time of my damn life, you know?
Like, I was really—did not like school. Uh, and all I could think about was either after school or the summer when I could spend all day, you know, playing basketball with my friends and chatting with them late into the night, they made me happy.
They feel good. Yeah, that's the thing I learned most from it.
It's just like, it feels good to be with other people.
And it's funny that I have to spell that out now because it's like, Something I have to tell myself.
Before it was just intuitive. Dude, it feels good to hang out with other dudes.
I honestly feel like emotional when I hear you say I'm having the time of my damn life.
It's putting me back to places. It's like, it's so... joyful and fulfilling, and your friends are the center of your world.
And not only that, you know that you're the center of theirs.
I wonder... were you talking about feelings with Rob or with other friends?
Like, were you going deeper on that level?
It's a good question. I... I definitely like most men who I've met and talked to historically have found it difficult to talk about feelings, particularly with other men.
So I would say, like... The answer is yes, but I would say it would start with talking about something in a more abstract way, like a moral dilemma.
What I remember is it was always, like, late in the night, just me and this other friend.
I'll use Rob as an example. We'd be hanging out, watch a funny movie, right?
Eventually we get into bed around midnight or whatever.
I'm like lying on the cot on the floor. And we're joking around, and I guess the first stage of the arc is like the joking around, the second stage maybe, you know, talking about the girls we want to kiss or whatever.
I think it's important to say it's dark.
It's like you're not looking at each other.
I actually do think that's important, right?
Because it's like... It's almost like being in therapy where you're like lying on a couch. looking up at the ceiling, right?
You're not looking at each other. You're both lying in bed.
Yeah. And just as one is starting to doze off, the other one's like... by the way, like, there's one other thing I want to talk about.
And then it goes on for another hour, right?
So I remember it would be, like, after talking about a lot of other stuff. then feeling like loose enough.
That's when we would talk about, you know, the heavier more emotional things but like you know insecurities and the things that I felt bad about myself like wishing that I don't know, like, it sounds trivial, but, like, wishing that I were better at sports.
Would you ever say I love you to your friends?
No. Mm-hmm. No. Mm-hmm. No, and I mean, even now, like...
I would like to be able to say that, and I say that once in a blue moon, but it's something that...
Um, I struggle to do. And like my wife says she loves her friends all the time.
It's not hard for her, but yeah, no, no, we wouldn't.
We wouldn't say that. Did you have, like, a way that you expressed your love for one another, if not in words? you know, there wasn't like hugging, there wasn't like, certainly wasn't like holding hands, hugging, any of that kind of stuff.
It was, because there was still this consciousness of like, you know... The burn book that you mentioned, yeah.
Yeah, you don't want... anyone to perceive you as being something other than friends at that age, you know?
So even in private... you're going to sit a little bit further away on the couch than you need to.
So, yeah, that's just how it was. But it seems like you knew.
You knew that there was... a deep friendship and, in fact, a love there between you all.
Yeah, and the reason why, again, I think of it... as love is like just the amount of mental space these close friends occupied.
Yeah. It was really like spending a lot of time thinking like, would Petey like this, you know, song?
Would Benny like this pizza place that I just discovered?
You know, like, just constantly thinking, like... in terms of my relationships.
What can I share with a friend? You know, when can I next see this friend?
Yeah. Did you think you'd be friends with these guys forever?
Yeah, yeah. When we come back what happened to Sam's friendships?
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Thank you. So, Sam, I really want to dig into what happened after college because...
I imagine it wasn't like you graduated college and then all of a sudden your friendships disappeared.
But something did change clearly as you got older, more into adulthood.
What were your friendships like in sort of your mid-20s after you left, after you graduated college?
Immediately after college, they were amazing because I was single, living in New York, and So I had various apartments that I shared with different friends, and that was, like, you know basically an extension of college because it was you know staying up super late every night often, you know, with beers or weed or whatever, probably both, and tons of takeout.
That was terrible for us. And, you know, just, I remember, like, Again, having the time of my life in my early 20s after college, like... And it was, like, somewhere... around, like, 25, 26 that things began to shift.
That was, like, when a lot of my friends and me started to be like, well, we need to get our shit together, right?
There was like, there was like this moment.
I know exactly, but yeah, it's the get your shit together years.
Exactly. So like that started happening.
And I had friends who were going to law school, friends who were going to med school.
So this thing started happening where everyone's getting their shit together.
People are like leaving New York. Yeah. So that starts to happen.
And then... The bigger thing, of course, the biggest thing, I would say, is people started, their relationships started to get more and more serious.
So I had a girlfriend in college and we decided to move in together.
So now I'm going from living with friends to living with my romantic partner.
With friends, for the most part, you don't really have to check in with them about anything.
You can do whatever the hell you want, right?
Um, also, like, with friends, it's like, none of the dishes are getting done, and we're both slobs, and, like, we don't care.
But, like, when you're in a... romantic thing.
It's like, all right, now you got to take the chores more seriously.
You have to like, You're really sharing a space and like building a home with somebody.
And, you know, so you're running your plans by your partner.
Yeah. So little by little, you move in with your partner.
You are going out less because... you already are with your partner and like a big part of going out is like, oh, well maybe I'll meet the person tonight, you know, at the bar or whatever.
And, And you don't have that anymore. There's less of a drive, yeah.
And when you're with the love of your life... and you can see them whenever you want, this idea starts to creep in more like, what do I even need my friends for?
Like I got everything right here, right?
I have like somebody who I love to talk to I also get to do other stuff with them exactly right and it's all in the same package and you know can I pause it on just before that it's like When this was happening, this moving in with your partner who becomes, or your girlfriend rather, who becomes your wife,
And this sort of slowly... I don't want to say... Like, the friendships... becoming less and less central to your life, maybe less and less of a priority.
Were you aware of that? I was definitely aware of it because some of my friends were giving me grief about it.
Oh, look at Sim. You know, now that he's got, you know, he lives with his girlfriend, like, he doesn't have time for us anymore.
You know, that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. I mean, the honest truth is that at the time, I didn't consciously miss my friends that much.
I was so excited about being with my romantic partner and like, so focused on, like, trying to crush shit and getting my shit together, all that stuff.
Yeah. I wasn't really... If anything, like, I was annoyed at my friends for guilt tripping me.
I'm like, ah, just get over it, dude. I.e., like, get your own girlfriend and, like, leave me alone, right?
Mm-hmm. I didn't literally say that, but I was thinking something along those lines.
Becoming mature... Mm-hmm. getting a romantic partner and, like, not goofing around with your friends is...
You're not really a man unless you stop... hanging out with your friends.
Or, like, hone in, yeah, or hone in on this person who...
You love, I mean, it's making me think about how, you know, we sort of talk about this on the show, but it's like you were getting all these different things from different people earlier on in your life.
You're getting fun from your friends and emotional support from, you know, this guy and basketball with this other guy.
And then it's like, it's just sort of your focus narrows and you meet this romantic partner who...
You love. You love deeply. And sort of the emotional and the physical and the fun gets... narrowed to sort of one person.
Does that feel accurate? It's like you're putting so much on this romantic relationship that friendship kind of seemed like a distraction.
It's almost what I'm hearing you say. Yes.
They almost felt like a luxury. Like, it's like, okay, if I spend two straight weeks not going out eating healthy, not boozing late into the night and being a nice partner, then like I'll indulge.
It's almost like having junk food or something, right?
Yeah, yeah. Where was Rob during all this?
When you were moving in with your romantic partner, what was happening with him?
Were you guys in touch? The... So Rob also moved to New York City after college.
At a certain point, he moved back to Boston. we were still communicating on the phone and writing each other these, like, long emails.
Like, we would write each other, like, three or four or 5,000 word emails.
Wow. Whoa. Yeah. And some of them were really emotionally mature in a surprising way.
You know, I was really hurt by this thing that you did.
You know, I don't feel like you fully... accounted for the way that you hurt me.
Here's what my experience was. Wow. And then writing back...
I hear that, but you know, stuff like, like stuff that is way more mature than like the way that I now interact with my mouth.
But we were still doing that into our mid-20s.
And... No one sends emails like that anymore because now we're all just, you know, doing what obviously everyone does is WhatsApping each other and, you know, short little things.
But, yeah, so Rob was in Boston. And, yeah, at that point, like, many of my best friends had— dispersed by then.
And then life continues to happen. Tell me what came next.
Then Get married. Congratulations. Thank you.
Marriage is... just like the relationship thing, but on steroids, because you're like...
Well, now I'm married, so, like, I mean, of course there were no, like, actual rules saying, well, you can't go see your friends now that you're married.
Mm-hmm. But there's this internalized idea.
It's like, well, you know, now that you're a husband, you should be spending a lot more time at home and not out with your friends.
Where did you learn that from? Who or what or where were you getting that message from?
I'm just curious. I think the best way I can answer that is that it was...
It was just vibes. It was like vibes that come down from years and years and years of watching movies and TV shows and all kinds of messages about, like, this is what a boy does and this is what a man does.
And a grown man... who continues to like hang out with his friends is a man child, right?
Yeah. A grown man is supposed to be at home with his wife or out there crushing and making a lot of money so he can be the breadwinner and bring home a lot.
You know, that's the kind of message over and over and over you're getting from these various, like, cultural inputs, right? like this is the way it's supposed to be.
And then having kids, All of a sudden now you actually are insanely busy.
Right. I mean, I say right like I know, but I haven't had any kids yet.
You get it. Yeah. You're insanely busy. For the first time in your life, you actually truly cannot do whatever the hell you want.
Right. You kind of can't do whatever you want when you're married because it's rude to your partner, but, like...
If you do whatever you want when you have a kid, the kid will starve and die.
The thing I was not prepared for, among many things, was just the amount of dishes and laundry that I was doing.
Just endless amounts of cleaning up. And then you're not sleeping for years.
Sorry to scare you off from having kids, but... No, it's good.
It's good to hear. You quickly... Well, I say you get used to it.
You don't get used to it. So you really do have less time to hang out with your friends at that point Um, but what, what ended up happening was I was saying no to friends more.
Or just like not reaching out to friends as much because I was genuinely swamped and I was tired and I didn't want to go out at night.
It makes sense. a good night's sleep or whatever, right?
But the part where it started to get truly like corrosive to my friendships was...
Okay, things start getting a little bit easier with the kids.
Like, they get sleep trained. Now I'm sleeping better.
I'm in more of a routine where I know how to do the laundry faster and I do have a little bit more free time on my hands.
But uh-oh, it's been months since I hung out with a friend.
Do I even know how to hang out with a friend anymore?
What are we even going to talk about? Okay, that's what I want to focus on.
It's like, was there a moment where you kind of looked up Amidst the blur of children and obligations, all these legitimate things, of course. and said like, oh my God, it's been months since I've seen Rob or insert other friend here.
Like, how did that realization come to you?
And what did it feel like? Well, well, I started joking around with my wife, you know, look at me, I'm like becoming one of these cliche data points of like the lonely American male.
But it was still kind of a joke that I didn't quite take seriously.
And then at a certain point, I just started feeling like... oh, wait a second, this is actually a problem.
Like many, many new parents, I was arguing, you know, with my wife about our kids, you know, and like, who did the late, you know, Who did less of this responsibility and who is owed more of this?
And it was exactly the kind of... emotional moment in my life that I really should have reached out to other friends who are going through the exact same thing. that I was going through because I had other friends who had kids pretty much at the exact same time as I did.
And I wasn't reaching out to them. I just, I wasn't, I had no one to, especially if like my wife and I were in a place where, you know, we had just gotten into an argument or something like, what am I going to do?
Just like talk to my wife about how hard it was that I got into an argument.
Let's take that sort of example. Would you like go to your phone and think about texting or calling a friend and then just be like, I mean, like take me through that thought process.
What would you do? I mean, it's funny. I would like, go to my phone, be like, I...
I'm gonna text my friend and see, you know, if he's around to talk.
And then, like, I would be like... ah, do I really want to get into it?
And then I'd be like, ah, do I really want to impose my whining? on my friend who's also got his own shit going on and like, you know, you know what?
Oh, look, there's a new episode of this podcast.
Click. And then I ended up listening to a podcast and I just ended up listening to a tremendous number of podcasts.
Instead of calling friends. That is actually, like, it feels like the most cliched thing ever, but that is actually what happened to me.
Tell me... What shows you were turning to?
What were you listening to instead of calling a friend?
So I started out actually listening to like podcasts about meditation because I had heard that meditation was good for you.
When you have small kids, certainly, of course.
And, um... And then like, you know, started going, I wouldn't call it a rabbit hole, but I, you know, I started like, Eventually, like, I started listening to the Joe Rogan experience because he just has had everyone on his show.
And he's talking for like four and a half hours.
Yeah. Yeah, he's talking for a long, long, long time.
But, you know, like, he'd have astrophysicists on his show.
He'd have... Michael Pollan, whose book I had just read and really wanted to hear more from Michael Pollan on his show.
He had this Stanford professor talking about dopamine and addiction science.
And, you know, so I would listen to his shows often, Just to, you know, try to pick up, you know, whatever, life hacks or whatever.
And... You know, again, the reason I'm doing this is because I'm feeling overwhelmed, lonely, all of these feelings.
And instead of relating to other people and calling a friend, I'm like, well, I can just solve these problems on my own.
I'll just listen to some podcasts and I'll get the answers from the podcast.
Yeah. I can do this all on my own. Yeah.
I mean, it's this kind of rogue self-sufficiency, right?
Like, I'm not feeling so good. or whatever.
And I want to address this, but I'm going to fix this myself by listening and learning and working on myself.
Yes. There was something in the Rogan thing that appealed to me, which was basically like, stop making excuses.
Man up, you know, I'm using that in air quotes, but like man up.
And basically the easiest thing you could do right now to change your life.
All of these podcasts said this. Go work out.
Go work out. Stop. Get out of your head.
Pump some goddamn iron. And they all said this.
And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Maybe I should try that.
You know, like if you just take care of your body, not only are you going to get healthier, but like everything else in your life is going to fall into place.
Yeah. I think in a way, part of the reason why it appealed so much was it's like, I knew that even though it's really hard to like exercise all the time and, you know, lift heavy weights, I knew that on some level it was easier than doing deep emotional work.
So I was like, well, all right, I'll just try that.
And it was like, what was I doing in my late 30s and early 40s every spare moment I had?
I was exercising. I was going to CrossFit.
I was running outside in Prospect Park through freezing cold rain.
Because, you know, I had this idea that like, well, at least if I'm doing this, I'll, you know, I'll be able to like basically conquer whatever lonely feelings I'm having.
Wow. Yeah. And physical sublimation. Yes.
And it was the idea, basically, that, like...
Life was to be crushed, not to be enjoyed.
I mean, and it also is a... It's a solitary, it's like, go and lift this thing, and then when that gets easy, lift it heavier. the power is within you to change you.
And it's still very like individual focused, intrapersonal.
So I can see why it would appeal. I mean, I guess I wonder, like, was this a conscious choice on your end to turn like, towards these podcasts or working out or whatever instead of friends?
Like, were you aware that you were diverting sort of in that way?
I don't think I was aware of it. I think I was still telling myself... you know, you don't have time for friends because you're so busy.
I was also in denial about being lonely, right?
I just knew that I felt bad and I wanted to feel good.
And I was like, oh, well, if I exercise, I'll feel good.
And I did feel good temporarily. There were the endorphins that they promised me would happen.
Totally. I think that's a really important point.
And I really think that there is still something very icky and like...
We're allergic to self-identifying as lonely because it's very vulnerable. to admit that not only to yourself, but also out loud.
So first of all, thanks for saying that.
But I understand why it would be shielded in these layers of...
I'm not the kind of person that gets lonely.
And also, like, look, there's this whole... in the culture of the incel, right?
The involuntary celibate, right? Totally. sitting in his mom's basement on his computer.
Like, that's the stereotype of the lonely man.
And I think every man who feels lonely is, like, terrified of being grouped in with that right interesting yeah like if i if i admit that i'm lonely then you know are people gonna think i'm some kind of incel freak or whatever yeah so i think that's a part of it.
And you're going to use every adjective except for lonely what were you afraid of in calling you know when you went to call a friend and then diverted to the podcast what were you what were you worried would happen Like, what was stopping you?
I was afraid that my friends would think that I was needy.
I'm not like a bro. I grew up in a super feminist household.
Even I had so deeply internalized the idea that showing weakness as a man was is tantamount to not being a man.
And I just didn't want to not be a man. I was afraid that if I called and said, hey, man, like, I'm really lonely and, uh... it makes me sad to be alone and I just needed to tell you.
I was afraid that they'd be like, That's so soft.
Like, are you kidding me? Because, you know, again, I've been conditioned to think that basically, like...
The main ways to relate to other dudes, unless it's 4 a.m. and you've been warming up a lot at a sleepover party.
Right. And the main way of just like emoting generally as a man, I find like...
There are two modes that are acceptable, kidding around and anger.
Right? Like, you're allowed to fight other dudes, but you're not allowed to hug a dude.
So either I'm allowed to be angry or I'm allowed to joke around.
So if I call my friend and I'm just sincere and talking about like the sadness in my heart or whatever, is he going to think that I'm like, you know, uh, I could use many different derogatory ways to say less of a man.
That's so interesting, and I really appreciate you laying it out.
But I'm thinking about how you talked about when you were younger, you had all these... deeply emotional conversations with your friends.
I'm thinking specifically about those emails you and Rob sent to each other.
You said that Rob was one of your closest friends.
Were you in touch with him at all? Like, how had your relationship changed over the years?
At this point, Rob is... doing a postdoc fellowship in North Carolina.
So even further away than Boston, obviously.
I am mostly communicating with Rob through basically like a group email chat that... we've had going now for like almost 20 years.
And so I'm communicating with him and other friends through this group chat. calling him less and less and less over the years.
A subset of this email list They're like kind of what we like to call caucuses in the email list.
There's the fitness caucus, the guys who like have their like little side group chat.
Yeah, totally. And there was a bike trip group.
I actually was one of the people that initiated this group.
And I said, let's do a bike trip. you know, once a year.
And that bike trip continued for many, many years, but I stopped going on it.
I had kids and I made all the excuses why I was too busy.
And once my life started to stabilize a little bit when my kids got a little bit older, I told myself like, I'm really going to go on the bike trip this year.
And I would tell the biking group, I'm coming this year, I'm coming this year.
And then I would like flake out at the last second and be like, ah, sorry guys, I can't do it.
And then like in 2021... I was like, I'm definitely going this year.
You know what, like... I have like really at this point sidelined my friendships to like a degree that is like just way, it's gone way too far.
You could even recognize, yeah. Yeah. So it was like, it was Christmas break and I met up with basically the crew that goes on this bike trip at a bar in Boston.
And a lot of these guys were guys who had gone every year for the past decade.
And I hadn't been on one for like eight years.
And... I basically kept trying to bring up the bike trip. proactively, because I really wanted to demonstrate I'm coming this year.
I know I flaked out in the past, but I'm coming this year.
And Rob basically was like... Yeah, whatever, you're not coming.
Like, you always say you're gonna come and you never come.
And... One thing led to another, and he brought up a particularly egregious example of when I had flaked out.
On this trip. On the bike trip. But Rob brought this up.
Yeah, and he was just like, you know, like, you never fully accounted for... what a dick move that was, frankly.
And then I started getting defensive. I'm like, why are you bringing up some shit that happened nearly a decade ago?
Like, you know, I'm in my 40s now. Like, you know, like, yes, it was kind of a dick... It was definitely a dick move.
Let's just talk about the logistics of this biking trip.
Can we please? Can we just talk about this trip?
And eventually one thing led to another and like the words got more and more heated.
And I am not a violent person. In fact, I have actually never been in a fight in my entire life.
And I don't know if it was like listening to too much of the Joe Rogan stuff or whatever, but like, I just said to him at one point, I said, he was getting really close to my face.
And I said, if you don't get the fuck out of my face, I'm going to knock every fucking one of your teeth out.
Whoa. And I meant it. I was so mad. And I've never said anything like that in my entire life.
Hmm. And this was something I was saying to, like, my dear, beloved, one of my oldest friends, my most beloved friends.
And, um... It got broken up by the other guys before anything led to actual blows.
We went our separate ways. And like, I was really pissed.
Can I ask you? Yeah. When you were, like, leaving the bar...
You were angry, sure. Were you embarrassed?
Were you sad? Like, what were the emotions in your brain immediately after?
I mean, the... The emotions immediately after were just anger at him because it was easier to feel angry than to feel emotions, right?
Yeah. it was easier for me to just be like, it's all his fault.
Like, he picked a fight with me for no reason.
He can't let this go. He's bringing up some shit from a decade ago.
You know, what's wrong with this guy? Yeah.
I mean, truth be told, there was a point at which I was like, you know what, fuck it.
I don't need to be friends with this guy anymore.
Wow. Like, but just looking back and I'm like, I can't believe that that thought even crossed my mind, but it was like, it was actually easier for me to just, and not be friends than to, like, have a heart-to-heart conversation about the feelings that were involved in that exchange.
I understand that. And that's when I started reflecting on, like, the fact that I hadn't gone on any trip for eight years And I started just thinking more and more, like, about how much I had deprioritized friendship and then how much I had...
As a result of years of deprioritizing friendship, how much I had gotten accustomed to being alone And almost being intimidated by the idea of, like, trying to rekindle my friendships.
Hmm. And so I would say like that fight was the real precipitating moment where I was like, I have made every other thing that is supposedly good for your mental health a priority.
Like, I've done all of the things. I don't drink alcohol anymore.
I exercise. I meditate. I was in therapy.
And yet, I didn't do the number one most important thing, which was to hang out with real people in person And prioritize friendship.
And I think that was like the tipping point for me where I was just like, I have to try to change it.
When we come back Sam takes steps to reconnect with his friends.
That's next. So you have this moment, you have this fight, and...
It sounds extremely... It sounds clarifying for you.
Like, I need to make a change. And I've maybe needed to make one for a while.
But I'm going to be brave and try to make...
What did that look like? Like, how did you try to start to reprioritize and recenter friendship in your life?
And also, did you go on the bike trip? The bike trip that year ended up Not happening.
And I think in part because of that ugly experience at the bar.
Yeah. But what did it look like when I started addressing it?
It's funny, you know, I found a podcast.
Not podcasting. Come on, Sam. But this was a totally different kind of podcast.
This podcast has a very explicit purpose.
The podcast is called Man of the Year. It has a very explicit purpose, which is to offer advice to men who are struggling with loneliness.
Okay. Well, sometimes you find exactly the right thing for you.
Yeah. And I needed to hear it said out loud in like very sort of like bro plain language, right?
So, like, one of the things that really resonated with me was be the friend.
Be the friend means, like, don't wait for the other guy to call you.
Just call... and ask them to hang out, right?
And the beautiful thing about listening to this show is that it's easy for guys to listen to who are not into the touchy-feely stuff of like, you know, get deep inside your vulnerability and this and that.
Instead, they're just like, all right, guys, guys, guys, it's very simple.
Here's some life hacks, all right? Here's some hacks for friendship, all right?
TCS. Okay. Signs for text weekly. Mm-hmm.
Text weekly. Call monthly. Mm-hmm. And see quarterly.
Whoa, TCS. So all you have to do is see your friends four times a year, call them once a month and text them once a week.
And like, that's all you have to do. You set it in your reminders and it's like.
And then because it's in your reminders, you just have to do it.
You know, so that was like one of the more kind of hack-based tips that they gave that I did kind of find helpful.
And essentially, this is the antidote to my fear of seeming needy or weak or whiny or whatever.
And by the way, once I started calling my friends and, you know, it turns out Gee, who would have thought?
They're totally willing to talk about emotions.
Like, men do want to emotionally connect.
Yeah. Like, no one has been like, bro, like, sorry, I don't talk about sadness, bro.
I only talk about... Sports, sorry. Do you remember like an early phone call or even an early hangout Were you nervous?
Like, you were reentering this place you hadn't been.
Yeah. There was a specific... friend who was one of my college roommates, a guy who had lived abroad for a long time and we fell kind of out of touch, who moved... back to the city and, you know, lived not that far from me.
And yet I still... And I loved this guy, but, like, I still hadn't seen him, you know... in a really, really long time, even though he now lived near me.
I'm making the effort. And then he's like...
All right, well, you know, there's this concert that I want to go to in Greenwich Village.
And I'm like, okay, all right. Like I really don't actually want to go because I'm like nervous.
Mm-hmm. because I'm out of practice basically having, you know, being a friend.
Like, are we gonna have nothing to talk about?
Is it gonna feel forced? Whatever. And it's the winter and I'm like, oh, it's gonna be like, it was like slushy on the ground.
I'm like, I have to take the train all the way in.
I didn't really want to go. Right. But again, because like, I'm, I'm now like, you know what?
You're making an effort to do this. You're gonna, you're gonna go, you know?
Do it, man. You know, I had to like psych myself up.
And I go and... Of course, it's totally easy and natural.
Did it feel forced? Not at all. It's totally easy and natural.
I'm like asking him stuff about... his work that I've never asked him before.
And then, like, I started to tell him a little bit about, like, the struggles that I'd had in this period where I was, like... feeling lonely.
And also like, like my loneliness was definitely affecting my creativity and, And because I was in the creative dumps, it made me even less wanting to hang out with people because I was like, well, I don't want to drag them down because I have writer's block or whatever.
And I started to tell them that all Wait, hold on.
That feels like a big deal for you to say that out loud to someone that's not your wife.
Like, that feels big to share that with another guy.
And you know what's funny, though? Like, it didn't actually feel hard to do it.
And he was just like... Listen, man, like this is, you're a creative person.
Like this is part of the path and we all struggle and like it's totally, it's okay that you were struggling.
It's really nice to hear. It was so nice to hear.
And we had such a great night. We had enormous ice cream cones at Van Leeuwen.
This is the best night ever! There's like way too many scoops of ice cream.
When he orders the waffle cone, I'm like, all right, I'm getting the waffle cone too.
So we got the biggest ice creams ever. We go to this concert.
It was such a great concert. We knew all the words, like all the words came back to us.
I really didn't want the night to end, but, like, it was getting close to the midnight train.
I literally had to get on that train or I was going to be, like, stuck in the city.
And I remember calling my wife. I remember saying, like, I just had, like, the best night ever.
She's like, well, what happened? What did you... Why was it so great?
I was like, I don't know, just like... It was just so great.
And I like, I kept saying these general things, but It was the very act of just like being with this old beloved friend.
Yeah. And even just getting like a little bit of validation and even just sharing a little bit of emotional stuff that just felt like so good.
I remember having this feeling of being on the train, looking out of the window and seeing... the like blur of the lights almost looking like, you know, ribbons of light.
And I just, like, remember this feeling of, like, I'm standing... in front of a door that felt like it was closed for so long, and now the door is open.
And I can see through the door, and like, on the other side of the door are, like, my friends, and they're, like, waiting.
They're waiting for me to come hang out.
And, like, all I have to do is be the friend and, like, Call them and go hang out.
And I remember, like, feeling really... emotional, like having that image in my mind and thinking like, um, How did I let myself go for so many years without... connecting to all these people who I love.
And like, how did I convince myself that that was like, um, the right path.
Hmm. After years of really grinding and like, you know, doing like insane amounts of exercise that didn't make me feel any less lonely after, after so long of that, like finally, like, Realizing like, oh, this is it.
This is the answer. Like, all I have to do is hang out more.
And like nothing, nothing has ever... worked in terms of making me feel happy, like being with the friends that I love and being in community.
And, like... This is the miracle cure. Where's Rob?
How are you two now? How did you walk through the door with him?
We did exchange... We exchanged some heartfelt emails.
Mm-hmm. And then eventually we got on the phone and had what I was worried was going to be a really awkward, really hard conversation and was... a totally wonderful conversation.
And I really... Like, it was the kind of thing where I could have stayed on the phone for ten hours and I just had to get off because...
I was late to dinner and everyone was waiting for me. after that call, it is just... I already feel so much closer to him.
You have your friend back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
It does feel like that to me. I hope it feels like that to him too.
We'll send this podcast to him. Okay. You mentioned you have a son, right?
Yeah. Have you talked about friendship with your son?
Uh... I think a lot about how to... How do I raise a... a boy who won't be limited in the way that I was.
It's hard because I watch... movies with him like I've been introducing him to some of my favorite movies from when I was a kid Like, one of my favorite movies was Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, which... Great movie.
It's a friendship comedy. It's a buddy comedy.
And I showed that to my son because, like...
Part of what I love about that movie is that I think it models, like, what male friendship can be like.
Like, they have all kinds of shared lingo and they have shared hand motions and, you know, And I'm watching that movie with him, and there's this moment that was, like, really discordant where...
It appears that Ted has been murdered by one of these knights that's been chasing them.
And Bill stumbles upon his body and he's like...
Oh, my God, like, Ted, what? No, please, like, this can't be.
And, like, he's, like, freaking out. And then, like, a second later, Ted emerges from a side door and is like, I'm still alive.
And then Bill is, like, relieved and overjoyed.
And he's like, oh, my God, like... I thought you were dead and you're alive.
This is the best moment ever. And they hug and they're like, you know, he like nestles his chin into, you know, Ted's neck.
And they're like... You know, it's a moment of love.
Yeah. It's a moment of love between two friends.
And, you know, they hug for like a second and then they like, get startled and pull away.
And they look at each other and they say a word that I'm not going to say because it's an ugly word, but it's a word that starts with F. Mm-hmm.
You know, that is a derogatory term. Oh, my gosh.
And I'm watching, though, my son, and, you know, I... he was confused by that.
He was like, what happened there? And I just, I didn't want to explain it to him.
But it was like, Like, that's how I got to the point where I alienated myself from... my friendships.
Like, it's stuff like that, which, you know, my son... Like, I'm sure that my son... got the kind of message that like, you're not really supposed to get too close to your male friends if you're a guy like you can't get that close because that could mean something you know And it was right around that time that, you know, my daughter, who's a couple years younger, was talking about how she wanted to marry her best friend all the time.
And my son was like, yeah, I want to marry my best friend too.
And he used to say, like, I love you to this friend.
And he used to always give a long hug and say, like, I love you.
I can't wait to see you again. And I remember asking him, do you, you know, do you still want to marry that friend?
And then he's like, nah, like, because I don't want him to think I'm sus.
And I didn't even know that he knew the word sus, but...
And I just was like so heartbroken by that because I felt like he should be able to say he loves his friend and And if my daughter is allowed to say that she wants to marry her friend and there's no stigma around that at all, why can't my son say that too?
But can I ask you? Can you say I love you to your friend and do you now?
I have said it more and more. I used to not be able to say it at all.
And now I do say it. And I still kind of say it fast.
I'm like, I love you, man. Love you. Right at the end of the phone call.
But I say it. And it does feel good to say it.
And I'm working on saying it a little bit slower.
And I would love to be able to like look my friend in the eye and say, hey man, I love you.
Thanks for, you know, thanks for like coming out tonight.
I really love you. Like, I'd love to be able to do that.
I'm not quite the Jedi yet. Can I say? I think you're gonna get there.
I hope so. I know you're gonna get there.
All right, well, you're giving me some confidence.
I'm gonna try it. Sam Graham-Felsen, thank you so much.
Thank you for this conversation. Thanks.
Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening, everyone.
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