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Mo, thanks for joining us today Oh, I'm excited We were vibing right in the beginning of this In all of our prep And we are going to drop some insights on the audience That they're going to be very glad They showed up for this show And I can't wait We're going to have some fun doing it too It's going
to be so much fun This is almost one of those interviews Where I forgot to press record No, we were already starting Wait, wait We've got to bring it back Save the energy for the episode so so Mo how about you get it started by telling us about yourself and what you do yeah well in a real short sentence
here we help high -end experts grow a book of business part of that is negotiating either on behalf of their clients or for themselves to get the contract or the deals done and if I go one step further down the road a mantra that we two mantras we think a lot about are a great deal might make your year
but a great relationship can make your entire career.
That's one. The other one that I think is so important is people hate to be sold to, but they love to buy.
And if we just combine those two, I think there's a nexus around negotiation in there that's in the heart of that, which is creating wins for everybody involved.
And there's some really specific ways to do that that are backed by evidence, peer reviewed research.
I know we're going to get into it, but it's something that's rarely taught.
And it's probably one of the most important things people can learn.
I agree 100%. And this is great because we're going to go into not only the expertise that you shared within Give to Grow, but also just some approaches that people can utilize to get better results in their negotiations.
And I think a fun place for us to start, Mo, is just thinking about the stigma and bias that surrounds the word negotiation and the word sales.
They're cousins. Let's put them together in this context.
So when you think about the stigma regarding negotiation sales and those types of transactional discussions, what are the most problematic stigmas that hold people back from really leaning into these conversations?
Oh, there's a ton. A couple that come to mind are, and this was a bunch of core -level research, not peer -reviewed stuff, this part isn't, but stuff that we did in our live workshops.
We train 50, 60 ,000 people.
And we found that the biggest competition that people have is not another organization.
The biggest competition people have is themselves.
And because we know that people that have a relationship -centric approach achieve more in life here, Jeremy Anglin was the key researcher there.
I'm still memorizing this one because it just came out.
And so this idea of being other first, being about other people first, has all these massive outcomes.
The biggest barrier in front of that are lies that we tell in our head.
So the part that we incorporated into our own workshops, because we couldn't find it anywhere, was we asked people, think of a time when you went to reach out to somebody, but you hesitated or never did.
Everybody gets that.
Oh yeah. Yep. I remember Sue.
I met her at this conference.
I I emailed one. She didn't email back.
I hesitate. Everybody's got a story.
Then we said, tell us exactly why you hesitated.
We collected so many verbatims until we just never heard anything new again.
What we found is there's five lies people have, five traps that they fall into before they act.
What the greats do is they learn, how do I spot those and how do I overcome them?
so i keep deepening relationships i win a relationship advantage that's beneficial everybody then when it does time come high stakes time i'm either going to get hired or somebody else is i gotta negotiate ways everybody wins they're listening to me to you or not they trust me or not if you do all those
if you blast through those obstacles keep developing the relationships you end up in a position you can actually impact the world in a way that helps everybody and it also helps you oh this is so good well i mean we have to find out what these five lies and traps are yeah i'm sure that we've gone through
this and it's funny because i was going through i went to a conference the other a couple weeks ago and i wasn't speaking so i got to be a civilian which is rare it's fun and i was meeting all these people i was like oh this is great i'm going to connect with this person connect with this person how many
did i follow up with mo not one nary not one human received a follow -up message and i you know i i'm going to list i was about to list all of my lies that i told myself but i'm sure they'll come up in your list.
So let's hear it. What is it that holds people back?
Well, here's what we found.
There's five big categories and it really helps to drop down into the exact verbatims for each of these.
So there's a little, if you, if I go too long talking, you just stop me.
He's like, Hey, stop on that one.
Cause we could either share one discuss, or I could go through all five or whatever.
But the five lies are in order.
And this is important because you've got to topple over level one lie to get to level two, two to three.
The first one is I can't do that.
I can't do that. When it comes to relationship development or building a book of business or selling the exact verbatims behind I can't do that are I hate the idea of selling.
I just like doing the work.
I'm not good at going to dinner.
I'm an introvert. I'm not good at networking.
I'm not good at chitchat.
I can't do it like Debbie did.
I can't do the thing.
So this one's so important at first, it's why it's the first one is if we can't get past the fact we can't do it, whether it's the entire thing, negotiation, business development, whatever, or later in career, sometimes it's narrow.
I can't sell the big deals.
I can't talk to a board level person.
So it can start out big in the beginning, narrow in the end, but it's the first lie because if we don't get through that, we got nothing.
Your thoughts on that one before we go on to the others?
I think that's brilliant.
I mean, it speaks completely to self -efficacy and locus of control.
And if you have the external locus of control, then you're kind of living at the whims of other people and fate.
But if you have a higher internal locus of control, then you believe that you can actually do something which makes you more likely to actually do it.
And so it's a blend of mindset and skill set in the sense of you have to first have the confidence to actually take action, but you also have to have the skills.
You got it. And a couple of pieces of research, I think, are interesting here.
Dr. Karen Erickson, who's the 10 ,000 -hour rule guy that Gladwell popularized.
But he actually did the work.
He found that any complex skill is both learned and earned through deliberate practice.
His exact word, our rule guy, that Gladwell popularized.
But he actually did the work.
He found that any complex skill is both learned and earned through deliberate practice.
His exact words, there's a whole rubric around it that's scientific.
The other thing that I think, so anything that's complex, no one's born with it is the myth we want to bust here.
The second piece of research I think is interesting is Carol Dweck, growth mindset expert, just genius.
And what she finds is anytime we find ourselves saying, I can't do a thing, just put one word on the end of that sentence, yet.
I can't bring in the big deals yet.
And she said that starts to rewire your brain and you start to build a plan to learn it, a la Erickson.
So that's the I can't do it.
The next lie is, now again, these go in order.
So we have to blast through the first one to get the second one.
Second one is I don't know what to do.
Okay, I think I can do it.
I'm not sure what to do in this case.
Exact verbatims. I don't know.
I don't have anything meaningful to share.
I don't have an excuse to reach out.
They didn't reply to my last email.
I'm not sure I know what they need.
I don't know what their priorities are.
I might this stuff all the time our brain is incredibly good at creating barriers to keep us safe so what's your what's your thought on that one fami this is so critical and i think a lot of times when we when we think about those lies we have to just recognize that there there should be a like an internal
uh fact checker in our head yeah because we have these repetitive thoughts right because you have a belief a belief is just a thought you've thought a lot not a number of times.
And when you realize that there's nothing really truthful necessarily about a belief, but there is truthiness.
It feels true because we've heard it so many times, most likely from either society or from ourselves at some point.
So yeah, when you think about that excuse of, I don't know what to do, there are very simple ways to figure out what to do.
And it's just a thinly veiled form of self -sabotage that holds us back from getting the knowledge we need to actually take action.
Oh my gosh, the way you just said that, I hope that did not pass by the listener because that's so good.
Yeah. And to build, to go a step further down the road, to build on what you just said is a lot of times the solve for this lie, not always, but a lot of times is ask them what they want.
So if a lot of, I know it's ridiculous because it's so simple, but, but if we don't know what to follow up or I don't have an excuse, don't have anything new, all these lies, well, why don't we schedule a meeting and say, Hey Howard, or Hey Matt, you know, we both know a guy named Matt.
You could say, hey, Matt, I just had Mo on the show.
I know we had cocktails about six months ago.
He told me you're off on your own now doing some cool stuff with Justin.
We should catch up so I can learn about your parties.
Maybe there's some ways I can be helpful.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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The thing that underpins all of this productivity stuff is finding a way to make the journey itself enjoyable.
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Matt's going to love that, right?
Like who wouldn't want to have cocktails with you in Columbus?
us like let's go next week and so if we can learn their priorities and their words another way we say say it in the book is fall if we can learn if we can fall in love with their problem well now we have a year or two of content to share with them and follow up we it's almost like it's almost like we
went to a professor in in law school uh or business school and said hey can i just have the answers to the test next thursday it saved me a lot of time if you could just give those to me And they said, sure, here they are.
No one else asks. This is how easy it is and we just don't do it.
This is so good because so much of life is truly like that, Mo.
It's wild because the answers are out there.
You just need to ask for them and we simply don't do that.
And tell me what you think about this.
I've been playing around with this, just trying to figure out what holds people back.
And when we think about what it takes to just, we don't know to this last point.
I don't know what to do.
I think a lot of times when we create these barriers to hold us back, we're doing it to keep us safe, our perspective of what safe is.
And a lot of it comes down to a lack of confidence, too, because to that last point, we say, I can't do that.
But we just need to figure out what it is to do, practice it, and actually have a little bit more confidence on our ability to take action and also survive if we fail.
I think that's a big part of it, too.
Because we overestimate the amount of pain that we will feel when we fail and we don't feel like we can recover.
But if we have a little bit more confidence in our recoverability, our ability to recover, then I think we'll take a few more risks too.
Without a doubt, there's a study I just absolutely love that tested people's expectations and then outcomes when they were asking for donations to a nonprofit.
And these are rough numbers, but they're pretty darn close.
I was an actuary in a former life, so I remember numbers.
But they basically found that people would guess, hey, you've got to go out and ask a certain number of people for donations and we all want you to get to a certain level.
That was sort of the experiment.
People were off by how many asks they would need to bake by almost double, meaning they expected to having to ask twice as many people as they really needed.
And as you might expect, they were off on the amount, when they guessed how much people would donate, they were off by about half, meaning people gave about twice as much as they expected.
So to your point, our brains are wired to keep us safe.
They are wired to remember bad things more than good things.
And we fear much more strongly.
Those feelings are, fear is much more deep than the feeling of what positive things might happen.
So we are by far our own worst enemies.
We all think that competition is XYZ Corporation or ABC law firm when the real competition is ourselves.
And I think a big part of this is that if you've been struggling with something for a long period of time, it becomes very formidable in your mind.
So for the people who are listening to this, they, I can't do this.
I don't know what to do.
Those type of things, they've been ringing true in our heads for such a long time.
And once you blast through it today, two weeks and three, one day and three hours for now, another one will pop up.
They pop up in my mind for you, for the person who's 99 .9 percentile Rainmaker.
These will come and they'll go.
We just have to be – because the mind is wired that way.
We just have to A, be quick at spotting them and B, quick to realize what the solution is and bam, overcome it.
It's the people that do that very quickly that have more success.
Yep. Yeah, I agree.
you 100 and and one of the things i've seen i've heard from other people and then i started to experience it myself when you when you're around a lot of high performers who are doing big things from the outside looking in it's like these people are just gods among men right what how do they do such
things then you get closer to them and you see their humanity and we are still incredibly impressed by their accomplishments but sometimes when you see them very up close and you have these conversations, you're not as impressed because you can see their humanity.
And you're thinking, okay, they are brilliant, but that level of brilliance is achievable.
But the solutions that they're putting into place, they seem so simple.
I've got to be missing something.
It's got to be something more.
But I think the people who are high performers, they figure out what is the problem?
What is the solution to your point?
And they do it very efficiently.
And they're trying to find the simplest solution because a simple solution is less prone to failure.
You nailed it. I, uh, I was talking to Ali Abdal the other day.
A lot of people know as the big YouTube star, feel good productivity.
You may know, Ali, and he was on our podcast and we just recorded yesterday, I guess.
And, you know, he's probably got in the, in the sort of productivity, self -help -y kind of space.
He's probably got more views on YouTube than anybody, at least that I can think of.
And he's on the show and he's talking about how nervous he was to go on dates with his current wife, Izzy.
He was awesome too.
And he's like going on and on about how nervous he was.
So he would like listen to pump up music on his, you know, in the cab ride in London on the way to pick easy up and he would have to like pump himself up.
And I'm like, Ali, can you just stop for a second?
Because I think people are going to freak out that you were nervous about anything.
He's like, I'm nervous about all kinds of stuff.
So like we put to your point, we put these people up on pedestals that have achieved great things in an area or in many domains of life.
Let me tell you, they are experiencing these lies too.
They're just quick to overcome them.
We will all feel these things.
Everybody. That's so empowering.
So empowering. It's scary and empowering because I think a lot of times we want these challenges, these insecurities to be more like school.
Hey, listen, I graduated.
I'm never doing this again.
That's how I felt about what was it, calculus too, which it turned out I didn't even need.
I just got abused for a semester for no reason um but when i was done with that test i was like i'm never doing math again never doing it again but when it comes to these insecurities and problems it's just uh like they say new levels new devils it never goes away yeah you're always going to find something
and it's to me i've almost befriended it it's a it's a joke where i'm doing something big everybody says kwami you can do it we believe in you and everything and then i hear that little voice like no you can't yeah and I just laugh I said oh it will never go away but I know how to handle it that's the difference
well into write two best -selling books and be a keynote speaker and get up on stage like you do I'm like I just we barely know each other but I can tell that you are somebody who spots these things and says no I'm going to stretch out my my comfort zone I'm going to keep going thank you I appreciate
that no that's great that is great I'm going to clip that out and keep it in my gratitude journal.
There you go. There you go.
So let's hit number three.
What's line number three?
Yeah, I might do it wrong.
So here the exact verbatims are, I don't know the content well enough to talk about it.
I'm out of touch with us, the team, I might say something wrong.
I'm afraid that they might ask a question.
I don't know the answer.
I'm not important enough to meet with them.
So here we know what to do.
Abused for a semester for no reason.
But when I was done with that test, I was like, I'm never doing math again.
Never doing it again.
But when it comes to these insecurities and problems, it's just like they say, new levels, new devils.
It never goes away.
You're always going to find something.
And to me, I've almost befriended it.
It's a joke where I'm doing something big.
Everybody says, Kwame, you can do it.
We believe in you and everything.
And then I hear that little voice like, no, you can't.
And I just laugh. I said, oh, it will never go away.
but I know how to handle it.
That's the difference.
Well, and to write two bestselling books and be a keynote speaker and get up on stage like you do.
We barely know each other, but I can tell that you are somebody who spots these things and says, no, I'm going to stretch out my comfort zone.
I'm going to keep going.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
No, that's great. That is great.
I'm going to clip that out and keep it in my gratitude journal.
There you go. There you go.
so let's hit number three what's lie number three yeah i might do it wrong so here the the exact verbatims are i don't know the content well enough to talk about it i'm i'm out of touch with us the team i might say something wrong i'm afraid to know i'm afraid that they might ask a question i don't
know the answer i'm not important enough to meet with them so here we know what to do our fear is i might do it wrong and the in the in the idea here the solve is act just do that classic thing where you take the big thing you're afraid of and you boil it back to what's the first five minutes?
Do I need to call somebody internally to get to bone up a little bit on the thing?
I'll talk to the client.
Do do I need to do I need to bring somebody with me to the meeting?
Do I need to craft some really great questions?
Do I need to role play the idea of saying, hey, I don't know the answer, but I can get back to you on that.
Lightning will not strike.
In fact, it's quite trust building to say those things.
So, you know, there's always a solution here, but it's usually pulling it all the way back to a really quick, simple action to get going.
I think of this lie, Kwame, as infectious, meaning that I might do it wrong lie is like floating around in the air trying to infect someone.
And if you act, you will expel it and it will go infect somebody else.
So you can kick it out pretty quickly through action, but it's the idea of just pulling it all the way back to something really simple.
Oh, that's powerful.
I love the idea of this being infectious because you're absolutely correct.
I mean, the, uh, the contagion level is significant.
Uh, and when you think about it, there's always a little bit of yourself that will say, I might do it wrong.
No matter what it is that I'm doing, I might've done it a ton of times.
I still might do it wrong, but especially if it's one of the first times I'm definitely going to be afraid of, uh, have that fear and taking action as the antidote.
that's so, I love how tangible it is because they could say, well, Mo, I don't know what action to take, which takes us back down to one of the other lines.
Well, take action, do something, right?
And I think when you just say, hey, take action, it makes it really simple and actionable so people can recognize, well, what I'm doing right now, my typical response is being paralyzed by fear, the freeze response.
I need to make sure whatever I do, it's not that.
So bingo, that's exactly it.
Makes it so simple.
And I think boxing something into five minutes, like that's what maybe even 60 seconds, like what's one thing I can do right now that's so rock simple it gets me started.
Generally that creates the momentum and gets rid of this one.
Brilliant. Brilliant.
My afternoon is going to be so much more productive, Mo.
You don't even know.
We're saving us time by doing this.
Absolutely. This is great.
Cool. So that's three.
What's number four?
Number four, and you can see the sequence now even really much more clearly, because at this point, we know what to do.
The fourth lie is I'm too busy.
This one almost, you almost don't need to do the verbatims, but just a couple.
But I'm slammed with work like now.
We don't have capacity as an organization.
This stuff takes too long, and there's our 34 times.
So when we're really busy, we have access, we're talking to people, we're working on stuff.
Why in the world wouldn't we ask little questions that help our couple months from now?
So, hey, Suzanne, we're really slammed as we try to get to the next deadline on this big project we're working.
I know we don't have time now, but man, I would love to go to dinner in February in a couple months.
Once this once we've solved all this stuff and we've got that senior leadership team readout done and a data analysis all presented to the board.
but i would just love to take you dinner when this slows down and talk about some of your priorities and find some ways to be helpful because i've really enjoyed working with you on this project she says yes you set it up for february the problem is the roller coaster effect if we think of things like
we're either doing work or we're developing relationships we'll tend if it's either or we'll tend to get really busy do nothing oh my gosh things dried up i gotta to really work hard in a relationship and if we do the roller coaster effect just momentum grinds to a halt a little bit all the time is what wins
and integrating the relationship development with the doing of the work with these little 34x power superpower access asks actually makes it super easy doesn't take any more time at all and we're always moving forward that's it's so good and i i'm wondering maybe there's some psychology that speaks
to this with precision um but it seems as though the busyness that we feel is magnified when it is short term so for instance i feel really busy today i feel like i'm going to have a busy week and a busy month but then we always assume that we have a little bit more time in the future and yeah it makes
a lot of sense for us to book these types of relationship building meetings way out into, not like next year.
Well, actually in this situation it would apply appropriately.
But more than 12 months is probably a little bit too much.
But if we're saying like 3 months down the road, 4 months, hey, let's get something on the calendar.
It's easy. The calendar space is there and we don't have that emotional weight that we add to it, the mental weight.
Because the 60 minutes we spend to network in that meeting, or just build a relationship in that meeting, is going to the same 60 minutes we spend at that time but when it comes to the decision time it's going to feel a lot heavier if we try to put that in our schedule right now so it seems like putting
that on the calendar is makes it a lighter lift emotionally and cognitively for each person in the interaction that's exactly right yeah and and a build on that for our best very very very very very best clients or prospects we might even suggest an annuity of meetings so if we have that dinner with her
in February and it goes great.
Maybe one of the things we say at dinner again, we'll do it in person when we have our 34X superpowers is like, Hey, this was really fun.
You know, for my best clients, we actually do this about twice a year.
We just put it on the books.
I'll come up to New York.
You know, I get up here all the time anyway for business and we could just put this on the books and twice a year, let's do something like this.
And, uh, that'll always keep us in sync.
And I can keep looking for ways to helpful, be helpful.
Just like, you know, we just came up with those three ideas a second ago.
So we don't have to do that for everybody.
But what I love about that move is for the very best, it turns the communication default is on.
You have to actually act to not have dinner or have the Zoom call or whatever.
So that can be a really powerful sort of power move for deepening relationships with your most important folks.
I love this. This is great.
And number five, let's see what number five is.
this one is the holy grail of lies so the the name i wish we could come up with a better name for how people actually think in your head but the verbatims will drive it home this lie the fifth one is called i'm going to look bad if you want to put parentheses around it put fear of rejection afterwards
because that's what it really is this lie the fifth one is called i'm going to look bad?
If you want to put parentheses around it, put fear of rejection afterwards because that's what it really is.
We just don't say I fear rejection.
We say I'm going to look bad.
The exact verbatims are I can't ask my friends for business.
I'm worried they might not even remember me.
I'm intimidated by them.
They canceled on my last call.
Someone there doesn't like us.
what help would talking to me be this is like all of this deep deep deep deep deep fear of rejection stuff so we headline with i'm going to look bad but what's really underneath it is the humans need to be loved and be seen and be heard and we massively fear rejection that's powerful i i remember back
when i i with my first book i found this study where they found that people when they were put in a situation where they were experiencing rejection even giving them an analgesic like Tylenol alleviated some of the pain so that the pain of rejection is actually felt in a visceral physical type of way
I've never heard that that's super cool we need to trade studies yes I want to know that one it's a fascinating one right tell me more so the thing is when we talk about the fear of rejection we have to recognize it is tied evolutionarily to the fear of just death because if you're rejected from the tribe
you cannot survive as an individual out in the wilderness back in the day it's just not really possible and so the that that fear isn't baked into us that's why we are still here because our ancestors knew to stick with the tribe and not get rejected and not run the risk of rejection or do things that ended
up getting them rejected and so when we bring that here now we still have that fear of rejection as if we are going to die but we are living in a society that is significantly more advanced if you don't get turned out for a deal you're fine you're going to be okay but it feels like you're not and that can hold
you back a lot it's so good and that um i really do want that study so yes i will i will make a promise you have to promise and uh yeah so so that so building on that what we find is the best solution here is actually realize you're going to be rejected sometimes Or just the person's not going to reply
when you make some offer of helpfulness, getting together, introducing them to somebody else in your company, whatever it is.
So the little mantra that we use on this one is think 10x, not 1x.
And what we mean by that is think, hey, Suzanne's a potential important prospect for me.
I want to deepen the relationship with Suzanne or whoever it is.
I'm going to offer value to Suzanne 10 times over the next year.
I'm just hoping one time is going to work.
Maybe I'll invite her to a webinar the next month.
It doesn't have to be exactly in the month, but maybe we're coming to New York and I could bring an expert and introduce to her.
Maybe I can offer a half -day workshop for her or some time of continuing education or whatever it is.
But over the next year, I'm just going to make 10 offers of healthfulness.
I just need one to click and it doesn't have to be this next one.
And if we think 10x, not 1x, I'm going to offer 10x, I'm going to offer the value 10x times, not 1x.
If we think I need this next one to work, that's where we will fear we're going to look bad, fear rejection, and not move.
And actually, typically not even make the offer.
But if we think I'm going to add value multiple times, then we act.
And guess what? We'll probably get four out of 10, not one.
So we just need to act.
We just need to make the offers of helpfulness over and over and do it over a long period of time.
Something will get unstuck.
Something will stick.
This is so good. And listeners, let's bring this all together here, because this is going to be the question that really makes it click for everybody.
So I want, they're really good.
But if they would have, we know in a real situation, if they were listeners, they would have built the relationship.
but we'll keep the hypothetical rate, right?
So we have somebody who's very skilled, but no relationships.
Somebody who is not very skilled with great relationships.
Describe the negotiation outcomes.
Yeah, yeah, completely different.
And what's neat about this is we can actually lean on some research.
So here's a study named.
This is Jeremy Englund.
We talked about him a minute ago.
This actual study I'm going to cite here is called Cognitive Ability and Personal Values, a Large Sample Study of Schwartz Values, Hexago Personality, agent jenner i mean let's come up with a more boring title than that come on folks but from the abstract this is really interesting general intelligence
correlated so actually the smarter people correlated with positivity and self -direction benevolence universalism and negatively with security tradition and conformity so smarter people give more and then later down in the study um, people that give more, which tended to correlate with, with IQ actually,
um, actually got better negotiation outcomes.
So back to your sort of AB test, the theory you just mentioned, somebody can be actually quite good in the 30 minute high stakes conversation, but if they didn't build a relationship over years, my money is on the person that built the over the, the relationship over a series of years and is half as good
at the negotiation talk or 80 % of good or something like that because trust is built.
People give you a little latitude.
If the words didn't come out right, they'll probably, if they trust you, they're probably suggesting things that are helpful to you.
Hey, what if we did this for you and you did that for us?
They're engaging more than they're not viewing it as like we are battling and we're battling for a sliver of the pie.
Great negotiators make the pie bigger for everybody.
And if we're building trust for months and years ahead of time, the other side is likely to engage in that kind of behavior.
And I just think it's just going to result in just better outcomes.
Your thoughts? Oh yeah, 100%.
Because a lot of times we come up with these negotiation strategies and sales tactics and whatever it happens to be.
And then we wonder why it's not working.
A lot of times it doesn't work because we haven't set the foundation of a relationship that is built on trust.
And so if I don't trust you, I'm not going to sit here and accept the negotiation wizardry that you have.
I'm going to try to protect myself.
And when you have more trust, the person is more willing to be more vulnerable.
If they're more willing to be vulnerable, they're more willing to share, which going back to something that you said earlier, allows you to fall in love with their problem.
And you can start to really figure out how to provide solutions.
And they'll try, they'll start to be more incentivized to fall in love with your problem and reciprocate in the same type of way so like you said as we're trying to grow the pie you cannot grow the pie if both players are in this negotiation game are playing the game incredibly defensively because you
shouldn't even approach it as a game it should be a collaborative endeavor if we can work something out and we can help each other great if not that's fine too and the complete approach and vibe is different and it doesn't look like what you would assume a traditional negotiation would look like but it
is often much much more effective and frankly much more enjoyable for both people involved.
Oh, you just nailed it.
You just nailed it.
I mean, who gets up in the morning and thinking I want to claw off a piece of what they get so that I can get a bigger piece for me.
That's just not like, it's just not something that gets you up in the morning.
But on the other side, if we get up in the morning, we think I'm going to find a way to be helpful to them.
I'm going to find a solution that's better for all of us.
And if I learn their priorities and their words, that's sort of the end result of falling in love with their problem.
If I can learn their priorities and wear their words to the point where I can say those back to them and they say, no, that's exactly it.
That's what we're trying to achieve.
Now we all feel safe, more likely to be creative, more likely to, in a trust -based way, think of solutions nobody ever thought of.
And the end result of that, that's fine too.
And the complete approach and vibe is different.
And it doesn't look like what you would assume a traditional negotiation would look like.
But it is often much, much more effective and frankly, much more enjoyable for both people involved.
Oh, you just nailed it.
You just nailed it.
I mean, who gets up in the morning and thinking, I want to claw off a piece of what they get so that I can get a bigger piece for me.
It's just not something that gets you up in the morning.
But on the other side, if we get up in the morning and think, I'm going to find a way to be helpful to them.
I'm going to find a solution that's better for all of us.
And if I learn their priorities and their words, that's sort of the end result of falling in love with their problem.
If I can learn their priorities and wear their words to the point where I can say those back to them and they say, Moe, that's exactly it.
That's what we're trying to achieve.
Now we all feel safe, more likely to be creative, more likely to, in a trust -based way, think of solutions nobody ever thought of.
And the end result of the negotiation is going to be way better, But it only happens, tying it all together, if we have blasted through all those lies in the months and years before it.
Incredible. Incredible.
And I feel a good place for us to end here as we land this plane, Mo.
If the listeners were trying to find a resource, like a book, that has all of this information on it, do you have any idea where they can go to learn more about this information?
Gosh, I just can't think of any.
I mean, maybe it's the one we wrote called Give to Grow.
I don't know. What do you think that would be a good one?
I think that would be a good one.
That's right. Give to Grow.
I'm so excited about it.
It came out a couple months ago as we record this.
Been a top 10 bestseller when it first hit.
It has sustained that.
I'm almost just overwhelmed by the amount of love that is flying back to us as people have read it and they're achieving great things, even in a couple months.
So Give to Grow, it's wherever books are sold.
But the other thing that's interesting is, if you can think of how much pressure somebody writes a book called Give to Grow has to give things away, we developed a free, totally gratis training course that somebody doesn't even have to buy the book to get.
And that's at givetogrow .info And it has a couple dozen downloads Tools that help them put everything to place Videos from me that actually are better if you have the book But they stand alone without the book Anybody can go to givetogrow .info and get that in a second And if they like that, then I'd say
grab the book Because it's going to be even better But givetogrow all the way around is the solution Amazing, Mo, thank you so much for joining us today Really appreciate it Thanks, Kwame.
It was a blast. I had high expectations because your energy level, this was even better.
Thank you. Thanks, man.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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