The LinkedIn Podcast Network is sponsored by Oracle.
AI may be the most important new computer technology ever.
Do more and spend less like some of the world's most successful companies.
Take a free test drive of OCI at oracle .com LinkedIn Podcast Network.
BroncoOffrodeo .com.
Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of negotiate anything.
The number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts.
We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life.
Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team or navigating personal relationships.
Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed.
Our conversations are real, relatable and most importantly, rooted in practicality.
So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything.
Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you love to listen.
Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
Nithi, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you so much for having me Kwame.
This is so exciting.
I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Yes, me too. So how could you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure. My name is Nithi Tawari.
I'm a licensed clinical social worker and I'm a keynote speaker and I help corporations to create healthy, high performing teams.
I specifically focus in on mental health and how to be able to attend to well -being both in and out of work.
This is great. And Nithi, I have to say that must be the most concise elevator pitch I have ever heard on the podcast.
So kudos. I'm shaking notes.
So let's go a little bit deeper.
I want you to paint a picture for the audience.
So when you go in as a mental health professional and work with your corporate clients, what do those engagements typically look like?
So usually my corporate clients will recognize that well -being is a way to be able to retain people within their company, that they recognize that a lot of the outcomes are as a result of attending to well -being at work.
So I'll come in and I'll share information about why mental health matters to begin with, how we can start to recognize the signs that somebody may be having difficulties with their mental health at work.
And specifically, what do you say to somebody who may be struggling?
A lot of organizations are also noticing that their employees are struggling with burnout, they're wanting to feel more connected and feel as though they belong more at work and all of this ties into being able to attend to mental health and wellbeing.
For example, a lot of people are actually neurodivergent.
So leaders are starting to recognize, huh, I've got to learn a little bit about how to best support my employees that may be neurodivergent or may have depression, ADHD, anxiety, so that they can perform at their highest level.
And that's where I step in and assist.
Oh, that's great. That is so cool.
And I know the listeners hear this all the time, but my background's in psychology.
So essentially you are the person who I always wanted to be.
This is great. So let's start off with talking about mental health, because I think a lot of people might be surprised to see somebody who has your background coming in and talking about negotiations, but your approach and what you have to offer is fundamental to the difficult conversations that we're
having. So let's just start off with mental health.
Why is it important as it relates to negotiation?
I think that often when people hear the phrase mental health, that they are immediately thinking about mental health diagnoses, right?
Which makes sense because that is a piece of mental health, individuals that might be struggling with anxiety or PTSD or depression, but mental health also encompasses how we relate to people, how we build connection, the way that we communicate with the people that are in our lives, whether that's
as a leader with your teams or whether that's you as a partner in your relationships.
It doesn't matter that all of these are underneath that overarching theme of mental health.
And so when I think about negotiation, the best negotiators are the ones that are the most emotionally intelligent, and they have very strong communication skills.
And these are all facets of how we take care of ourselves and the idea of us really attending to our wellbeing.
I agree 100%. And I'm glad you started off with talking about how our biases about mental health will lead us to focus on the maladies that people might be experiencing, right?
We think about the pathologies more so than anything else.
And I remember when the field of positive psychology, I think it was Seligman that who really started to move that field forward.
That was one of the things that they noted.
Psychology has been focused on the negative for so long that we have not focused enough on the positives and how we can get people moving and operating at their optimal level.
So this mental health discussion that we're having is going to be fundamental to our ability to negotiate because you might have all the skills, you might have all the tactics, but if your mental health isn't in the right place, you're still going to struggle, perform in difficult conversation.
100%. And if you don't have the self -awareness, which is such a critical component of wellbeing, how are you going to know what you're bringing to the table in a negotiation, right?
What a lot of people don't realize is that when you're in the midst of having a conversation that's difficult with somebody or asking for what you want, it's bringing up all of your own past experiences, not only just within the negotiation sphere, but also your own core beliefs about your worthiness,
about whether you are capable of asking for what you desire and what that response may be from the other person.
Those core beliefs are going to guide the way that you approach a negotiation with any person in your life.
So that self -awareness is a critical piece of this.
And the only way that we can develop that is if we really attend to what's happening within and check in and just notice what comes up for us in the midst of a tough conversation.
This is great. And let's go deeper into this because I don't want to assume that everybody is on the same page with what it means to be self -aware, because that's one of those things that we mention all the time.
But I think people really struggle with fully understanding and appreciating what that means in a practical sense.
So let's dig into self -awareness first.
How would you define that?
Self -awareness is your ability to connect with your inner experience.
So when you're self -aware, that means that not only are you paying attention to what's happening outside of yourself, but you're also able to connect into your own personal responses.
So for example, the other day I was working with my speaking coach and I had presented to her two different talks that I was so excited about, but I'm not going to lie, there's a bias towards one of the talks.
So naturally inside, I'm like really, really hoping that she's going to love this one talk.
I'm like, she's going to go for this.
She was less jazzed about the one that I was so excited about.
So, okay. In that moment, I started to notice that defensiveness was kicking up a little bit for me and I had to pause.
I had to become self -aware in that moment and say, look, you're taking this personally.
This is a moment where you're feeling as though you're speaking coach is saying that this is not good enough, but that's not actually what's being communicated to you.
So by noticing that, oh man, my heart rate is increasing and geez thoughts, these negative thoughts are swirling in my head, that is an example of self awareness, because in this moment of communication and conversation, I needed to go within to see what was happening.
And that shifted the dynamic of the conversation that I was having.
Oh, this is delicious.
Nithi, first of all, thank you for that example.
As a speaker, it resonates with me as well.
The struggle. The struggle is real.
Yes. So this is great because essentially what you did in that moment was first you took the time to acknowledge how you were feeling internally.
I'm feeling something now.
We can't just stop it at that point.
There's a bit of an introspective process that we need to go through.
So, okay, I'm feeling something.
What is that thing?
All right. I'm feeling a little bit defensive and that defensive feeling is coming from this belief that the person is saying that it's not good enough.
That's not what they're saying.
Right. It shifted the conversation internally to not just awareness.
So you're identifying the emotion.
You're getting curious about that emotion.
And then you're starting to challenge that emotion internally.
And you're doing this in the moment, in the middle of a conversation.
And for people who haven't gone through this process, they might say, well, damn, that seems like a lot to do in the middle of a conversation.
And it is, but the reality is we get a lot better at it and we become more efficient at this process as we start to practice this self -awareness and introspection.
Yes, a hundred percent.
And I think that the more that we develop the skillset, the easier it is moment to moment to do this, because the more self -aware you are each moment of the day, the better that you not only connect to your own inner world, but this influences the way that you engage with people outside of yourself.
You will observe an improvement in your relationships and your communication patterns because no longer are you caught off guard, no longer are you reacting, now you have the space to respond.
So here's I love giving tangible tips.
So I'm just going to drop one real quick.
Oh, an easy way for people to practice this is to just maybe set a timer for 30 seconds, just 30 seconds, literally on your phone, 30 second timer.
And then I want you to just observe what comes up because silence has a beautiful way of bringing to the surface all of the stuff that we've been avoiding and repressing.
So if you can start to build a tolerance for those 30 seconds, just being curious about the thoughts that are passing through your mind, noticing what's happening in your body somatically, observing the feelings that arise, you will start to build the self -awareness muscle and then you extend beyond
that. So 30 seconds becomes one minute once you get good at 30 seconds.
And then a minute becomes a minute and a half, so on and so forth.
But I think it's important for people to recognize that it is a skill and you can get better at it.
That pause that you're describing is almost like the gateway drug for meditation.
Yes, it is. Here's a little teaser for you.
Exactly. Hey, just take 30 seconds of this.
Yeah, just a hit, right?
It's great. You're absolutely right.
Because I think it's important first to start off by having that moment of silence because you'll recognize how rare it is to have that moment of silence because the world is very noisy and so is our mind.
So a lot of times we are distracting ourselves with things around us.
We have social media.
We have YouTube. We have podcasts.
Some podcasts are good.
Always listen to them, negotiate anything.
Okay. Check it out.
But the other podcasts, those are distractions, but we have all of these things that are vying for our attention within just in our environment and then within our own mind, our self talk can be very loud as well.
So we'll start to recognize just how infrequently we take the time to look within ourselves and hear what comes up organically.
And we might be surprised as to what we find.
And I think that's part of the unique process of self -exploration because we need to figure out why we're feeling those things.
Because like you said, if you don't take the time to do this by yourself, sometimes those emotions will bubble up inopportune times and it'll take us off the beaten path of success.
Yes. Hello, my friends.
Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations?
At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills.
Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands -on training for your team, we've got you covered.
Don't just negotiate.
Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute.
Click the link in the description to find out more.
Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.
Hey you, I'm Andrew Seaman.
Do you want a new job or do you want to move forward in your career?
Well, you should listen to my weekly show called Get Hired with Andrew Seaman.
We talk about it all and it's waiting for you, yes you, wherever you get your podcasts.
Experience one of five stunning off -roadio locations and learn how to maximize every ounce of the legendary capability of Bronco.
Put more life into your work -life balance.
Sign up at broncooffroadio .com.
By yourself, sometimes those emotions will bubble up in opportune times and it'll take us off the beaten path of success.
Yes, 1 ,000 % correct.
And I think that also relates to the first example that comes to mind is whenever people get that annual review from their boss, the initial gut response is, oh crap, something went wrong.
I messed up. Like, I know I'm not going to get that bonus.
Screw the promotion.
It's all off the table.
And then you go in there and all of that negative self -talk was completely unfounded.
They're like, you did a great job.
We're really looking at you for this promotion that's coming up, once the space is available.
And all of that was all internalized negativity that you just didn't even recognize until after the fact.
So versus riding these emotional roller coasters where you're like, oh my gosh, freaking out, freaking out.
And then, oh, woof, relief.
And then freaking out, let's instead start to modulate that.
Let's learn to regulate those ups and downs so that we're a little bit more even keel in all of the ways that we're communicating and engaging with other people.
I love this. So helpful.
Now let's talk about, this almost seems comical here.
I'm asking somebody who's in the psychology field to tell us about childhood.
So tell us about how our upbringing and our childhood will have an impact on the way that we navigate these difficult conversation.
Yes. Okay. Two second nerdy moment here.
I think it's important for us to understand how our brain works because this is the reason why the past is relevant to the present.
Our brain has neurons that are interconnected.
Okay. These are memory networks that all tie into each other.
So when you have an experience, a trigger, if you will, in the present day, let's take a difficult negotiation for a salary.
Well, that experience in the here and now is linked back to lots and lots of other experiences where it looked like felt like and sounded similar to that moment.
So it may be the first time that you negotiated for a job or it may go back to your childhood.
The first time you asked for what you needed from your parents, how they responded in that moment is going to influence the way that you show up in the here and now.
Because remember, it looks like sounds like feels like the past experience.
So let's take it that when you ask for what you needed growing up, your parents dismissed it.
They were like, Oh, you'll get over it.
Just, you fell, you hurt yourself.
You're like, mom, I need a hug and mom's like, just shake it off.
Like you're good at whatever.
Stop crying. I'll give you something to cry about.
Right. Okay. What does that have to do with here and now?
Well, now when you show up and you ask for what you need in that negotiation in the back of your mind, you're like, they're going to say no to me.
They're not going to be willing to meet my needs.
Why should I even ask for what I need when I'm putting myself out there and it opens me up for hurt.
This is all happening subconsciously and it's because we make these past present connections.
So it's important if you feel discomfort around difficult conversations for you to look back at what those roots are, where did this originate from?
And I would say that probably eight out of 10 times, it's something relating back to your childhood that needs to get dealt with.
This is turning into a personal therapy session as the child of immigrants.
Some of these things are raining through.
It's very real feelings.
The math try to do math with a parent.
Oh my gosh. I don't know if you ever had that experience.
Holy crap. It is horrible.
I quit math cold turkey in college.
I'm like, I'm done.
See now I'm done. I never need to take it again.
Oh, this is great. You're spot on.
And that's the thing too.
Because even though these things may have happened so far in the past and even if it's not a conscious recognition, it's still there, right?
We're still going to that pattern recognition happens without our permission in a lot of cases.
And for me now, knowing this, I have a two year old and a seven year old, it makes me interact with them a little bit differently because I'm always trying to encourage them to ask for what they want.
And then when they do ask, we have a meaningful conversation.
I'm proud to say Kai would say, daddy, I'd like to engage in a little bit of negotiation, which is nice and I'm not going to lie.
Doing the right thing as a parent in this situation and meaningfully engaging is tough because a lot of days I don't want to do it.
I just had a long day.
The last thing I want to do is negotiate with a seven year old about his bedtime.
But I realized that projecting into the future, I want to make sure that he feels empowered going into his life.
So he sees this as a normal activity.
I have a need, I have a want, I'm going to advocate for myself in a meaningful way.
And so that's just a shout out to the parents to just keep this in mind because the activities that we engage in as parents right now, the impact will reverberate for decades.
Yes, these are formative years for kids.
So the more that you can allow them to express things, even if you're uncomfortable, what they're asking for to keep yourself grounded and hold the space like you're talking about Kwame is huge.
It's massively important for children to be able to have that experience growing up.
For sure. And our childhood experiences with our caretakers, our caregivers, that's going to be formative.
The society we find ourselves in, the community, our friends, those types of interactions, all of those are going to have an impact.
So somebody is listening to them.
They're saying, okay, now I'm recognizing how some of those experiences from my past could be hindering my growth here as it relates to communication and relationships.
What are some meaningful steps that they can take in order to overcome this?
The self -awareness and recognition is a huge part of it.
So if you're already there at step one, that's fantastic.
And then step two is to really be able to do the work because it's not easy going back and looking at experiences that we all have that were less than ideal with our caregivers and our parents, who ultimately we know as adults were just doing the best that they could, given the resources and the knowledge
that they had. But that doesn't mean that it still didn't have an effect on you growing up and in your adult life as well.
So for me, it's been a journey as a first -generation immigrant with parents that really did their best, but had some moments, right?
I've had to do my own work in therapy to be able to work through it and I've had to be able to touch into those experiences.
So when I notice that I'm reacting in the same way as I did as a teenager, for example, this used to happen a lot with my partner.
I'm ashamed to say it, but it did.
And I used to get upset and yell and get angry and say things that were not ideal at all.
So I had to do my work and I had to touch into myself and be like, okay, wait a second.
You're feeling wounded right now.
The way that you're interpreting what your partner is saying to you is not at all what he's intending.
And this is your old stuff coming up.
So let's feel into that.
Let's acknowledge it and let me calm myself down.
So a big part of my communication now is pausing.
Like when I start to notice that, oop, here I am getting triggered.
I need to be able to step away to regulate my emotions because when you're at a heightened state, when you're activated, your critical thinking center of your brain is like offline, right?
You're not able to rationally communicate or problem solve the issue at hand.
So you need to pause and step away.
And that has been an absolute game changer for me because it allows me the time and space to think about my response as opposed to just instinctually and often misguidedly reacting in that moment.
Oh, this is so good.
I know you saw this as somebody who's in the field, the body language of me changing.
I'm like, oh, you just hit me in my sensitive spot.
You're absolutely right.
And I've found a lot of validation when I asked other negotiation and conflict resolution experts the same question.
I found that for me, at least I'm less skillful in my personal conversations than I am with my professional ones.
And it's because it feels so personal and it can hit on some of those instinctual patterns of behavior and thought that are associated with our childhood.
And I really like that tell, because you're absolutely right.
If you start to recognize that you're responding in a childlike way to certain stimuli, there might be something deeper.
And as soon as you gave that description, I thought about my relationship with Whitney, too.
Yes, we've all been there, right?
Like, dang it, why did I say that?
Oh, because this was my old stuff coming right back up to the surface.
Yep. And that's the thing, it's always humbling to recognize that.
But I think it's important for us to have that humility and recognize this is a journey of self -improvement, but there is no true destination.
It's just a constant journey of improvement.
And the more self -aware we become, the more of these instances of maybe poor performance or maybe reliving trauma, whatever it happens to be, the more of those instances we'll see.
So sometimes we can trick ourselves into living this life of blissful ignorance where we say, oh, I'm perfect, everything's fine.
But then we're making all of these mistakes.
So the path of improvement is painful and uncomfortable, but it is the only path that puts you in a position to actually improve because you can actually see where you need to improve.
Yes, to remember that connection is on the other side of discomfort.
So when you're able to be vulnerable, when you're able to express what you need to people, when you're able to put yourself in a position where you're feeling uncomfortable, that is a sign of growth and to not avoid it.
Our tendency is to want to doom scroll it away or do something that is distraction.
And that is a temporary relief for a longer term issue.
So take the moment to develop that distress tolerance because it will be a valuable asset in every relationship at work.
Outside of work doesn't matter.
Like it's an asset right there.
Oh, this is great. I think one thing that would be good to end on is how to have difficult conversations on the topic of mental health because it can be so sensitive because within our relationships, we can recognize times where we might need to have that conversation.
Either you or your partner might need a little bit more support at the time.
Within our organizations, maybe we have an organization that has a culture that has some toxic elements that produces instances of mental health challenges for the people who are within the organization.
So we have to talk about that, too.
So as we're engaging in these conversations about mental health and that can be really sensitive, what are some of the things that we should keep in mind?
The biggest starting place for people is to listen deeply and with empathy.
Listen to understand instead of listening to respond.
Because what I find that people do is they listen, but they're thinking of the next thing to say in their mind, which means that you're not actually listening.
You're not really able to show compassion and empathy for someone unless you're truly in that moment.
A superpower that I think people can learn and develop is a skill called attunement.
Attunement is the idea that not only is my mind and body connected to itself.
Right. So if I feel an emotion in my head, I'm going to notice it in my body.
Right. If I feel stress, I'm going to notice it in my body as well, that not only is my mind and body connected to itself, my mind and body is connected to your mind and body as well.
So research studies have found that within 15 minutes of holding a conversation with someone, sharing stories, engaging in dialogue, our heart rates and our breathing sync up to one another.
So this means that we are literally taking on each other's feelings in that moment.
So if you're sitting here, arms crossed, closed off, leaning away, literally pushing yourself away from the person, what subconscious message are you communicating to them?
Right. Like you're telling them, I'm not really engaged with you right now.
This is a formality for me.
I don't really feel comfortable having a conversation about mental health, which then means that the person in dialogue with you is not going to be open and share.
They're not going to trust you.
Right. So part of attunement is watching your tone of voice.
When I'm having tough conversations with somebody, there's a lot of wow.
Yeah, that's really tough.
Like I can't imagine what it's like to have to care, give for your elderly parent and come here and lead a team.
Notice how I softened it, right.
That signals to the other person.
Wow. This is an empathetic individual who's really listening to me.
I keep open body language.
So my hands are usually off at my sides.
My legs aren't crossed because once again, subconsciously I'm trying to communicate.
I'm open and I'm listening.
The cadence of my voice, I'll slow down.
So I think a good starting place is to just notice the way that you're showing up.
Just tweak it to connect with and attune to the other person in conversation.
And then the last thing I'll say is then you want to be able to do two things, normalize and validate.
Let people know you're not alone.
I have struggled with this as well.
Or other people on our team have struggled with stress in this position.
Right. That's normalizing.
It helps people to feel heard and then validating anybody would feel this way.
Right. Like, gosh, you're caregiving and you're also leading and you're trying to raise your children and do all of these other things.
I can't imagine that's a lot.
Those two simple steps will help you to connect very deeply to people and instantly builds rapport and trust.
So that's a good starting place.
That is an incredible starting place.
So first we have listen deeply and with empathy.
Next, we have attunement starting to become aware of that and take those necessary steps.
And then lastly, normalize and validate.
Exceptional. And in my mind, Nithi, this is a sign of a lot of additional conversations we can have.
We can go deeper. So deep on this.
So deep. And I want to be respectful of time, but I do want to point out this point here, because like you said, the three things we can do listen deeply and with empathy, attunement and then normalize and validate.
What you didn't say is here's how you build your case.
And this is what you say first, because I think that's where we always want to start.
Okay. What do I need to say in order to convince the person that they need to change or they need to do something?
So you weren't saying, hey, honey, you need therapy and here are the five reasons why.
That's not how we're starting.
Not unless you want it to be a very short conversation.
Exactly. We don't want that.
But again, just starting off with the simple fundamentals that's so important.
And a lot of times what ends up happening is this is a really important conversation.
This is really sensitive.
So I need to do something special and unique.
No, what you need to do is hold on more tightly to the fundamentals of respectful communication.
And as long as you can do that, it's more likely for things to break in your favor.
Because the thing that's most encouraging about what you said is that everything that you listed there is something that's doable.
A hundred percent. And I think that your gut instinct is going to tell you to give people solutions to be able to know what to say.
But that is in fact the least helpful thing that you can do because you're not asking, you're just assuming what the other person might or might not need from you.
If you can instead step back, do these three steps, ask the questions.
Tell me more about this.
Help me to understand how can I best support you?
Then we have an idea of what somebody actually needs, but usually people's gut instinct is, oh, have you tried this?
Oh, you're feeling stressed out.
Why don't you delegate this off?
Oh, you want to ask for more money?
Here's what you need to do.
But you are not getting to the roots of it.
Why are they stressed about this?
What might be holding them back from showing up as their best self for this negotiation, right?
If we don't ask and if instead we assume we miss the ball.
And honestly, now that you mentioned this, the thing that might hold people back the most from engaging with us in this conversation is how we decide to approach the conversation.
Because if we start jumping in, we have a five point plan, we give them the solutions and everything.
They're like, you know what?
I had a lot of stressors and now you are one of them.
So this is really helpful, really practical and actionable.
So I appreciate you taking the time to share this with us.
And for the people who are out there saying, okay, I need more Nithi in my life.
What is the best way for them to get in touch with you?
Or you can reach out to me through my website.
It's wellbeingspeaker .com.
And yeah, you can reach out to me, learn more about my workshops and keynotes.
And you can also see my speaker reel there.
Love it. Nithi, thank you so much.
This was really great.
This was an awesome conversation.
Looking forward to coming back sometime hopefully.
Absolutely. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before, just kidding.
I've told you before about it.
You should listen to it again.
I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium.
Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more.
I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode.
And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else, and more exclusive behind -the -scenes access into every conversation.
Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career, and every conversation?
With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high -level, custom designed content and insights, giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals, and better relationships in your life and career.
Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53 ,000 raise.
Could this be you? What would that mean for your life?
I've seen first -hand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients, and I am confident that it can do the same for you.
Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life?
Click the link in the show notes to learn more.
I'll catch you later.
