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Hi, I'm Essie Kup, and I've spent my career interviewing people about politics, presidential elections, and some really tough breaking news.
But now, I need a break.
And I think you do, too.
So on my new podcast, Off The Cup, I'll still be interviewing people, usually famous and most likely my friends, but about life.
You know, the stuff that consumes us when we're not consumed by politics.
So come join me every Wednesday for some conversational self -care.
Listen to Off The Cup on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hey, I'm Gianna Prudente.
And I'm Jamey Jackson -Gadson.
We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.
There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career.
That's where we come in.
Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice.
And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Morie to Harry Poore.
If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit.
Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Every human being has a hard -wired need to be in control of everything.
There's three things in your control, Jay.
What you think, what you do or don't do, and how you process your emotions.
If you embrace this skill, you're going to be shocked.
This is by far one of the best self -help books I've ever read.
Your mind and soul are in for a treat.
The queen of grounded science fact personal development, Mel Robbins.
Work has been seen as the number one cause of stress.
You have a customer that's really rude.
You lose a big account.
You get passed over for something.
As you notice the stress come up, Jay, you're simply going to say, let them.
If you focus and try to manage things that are never going to be within your control, it only creates stress, anxiety, and frustration for you.
Imagine for every thought you had about that person, you had to pay them a dollar.
That's how much energy time and money is being wasted.
You have no idea right now how much time and energy is being wasted or drained because of other people's behavior or your expectations about how you wish things would go.
This is, I think, my legacy.
I think that this is the thing I was supposed to figure out and leave the world.
The number one health and wellness podcast.
Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty.
The one, the only, Jay Shetty.
If you're struggling right now with things you can't control, this episode is for you.
If you're someone who's struggling at work and negative people and toxic culture, this episode is for you.
If you're someone who's struggling with your family members and your friends and setting boundaries, this episode is for you.
Mel, where I want to start is work has been seen as the number one cause of stress.
You write about this in your book in people's lives.
How can the let them theory help people in the place that causes them the most stress?
It's an excellent question.
First, let me, no pun intended, let me explain the theory.
In case you haven't bumped into this online, the theory is very simple.
It is a mindset tool that instantly helps you identify what's in your control and what's not in your control.
The reason why this is important is because any psychologist will tell you that if you focus and try to manage things that are never going to be within your control, it only creates stress, anxiety, and frustration for you.
When you take the context of work, there is so much inside your day -to -day life at work that is irritating, it is stressful, it is annoying from the endless meetings and no time to get work done to if you're somebody that is working in a retail store, you're doing shift work, you don't have control
over what shifts you get, to feeling like you don't have the chance for promotion.
It is just endless.
And the way that you're going to use the let them theory is anytime something is happening at work, that stresses you out.
You have a customer that's really rude, you lose a big account, you get passed over for something, your idea gets dismissed in a work meeting.
As you notice the stress come up, Jay, you're simply going to say, let them, let my boss be in a bad mood, let my colleague take credit, let the customer, like, be rude to me.
And here's the thing, this sounds almost like you're being a doormat and you're being passive.
It's the exact opposite.
When you say let them, you're recognizing that the situation right now that has just happened, has already happened, and that there is no reason to allow it to stress you out.
When you allow your boss's mood to stress you out or make you nervous, you're giving power to your boss that they do not deserve.
And so you're going to say, let them.
When you allow a customer that is rude or inconsiderate to make you feel bad about yourself or to make you upset or to rattle you, you just gave this rude person power over you.
When you say let them, something interesting happens.
First of all, you detach.
Second, you feel almost superior.
It's this weird thing because I don't think this is the same thing as saying, let it go.
You're a very grounded person, Jay.
You strike me as the kind of person that can let anything go.
Me, whenever somebody would say to me, Mel, I know, I know, it's not fair what just happened at work, you've got to let it go.
I'd be like, but I feel like I lost.
I feel like I now have to be defeated.
I feel more like a doormat if somebody tells me to let something go.
What's the difference between let it go and let them?
For me, when I say let them, I get a jolt of superiority because I'm like, I can see that my boss is kind of a jerk and I'm just going to let them be a jerk.
I rise above it and I feel a little judgy, I mean, if I'm being perfectly honest.
I mean, this is why people get this tattooed on their bodies.
Because when you say the word let them or you see it on your arm, what happens is you no longer allowed a rude colleague or something frustrating at work to derail your day.
You say let them and you rise above it and you kind of go, I see what's happening here.
I'm going to allow this without allowing it.
But then there's a second part, Jay, and this is the most important part.
And it's the part that people do not tattoo on themselves because it's the harder part.
And the second part of this theory is saying to yourself, let me remind myself that in life, there are always three things I can control.
That's where my power is.
My power is not in managing my boss or in trying to deal with some customer that just doesn't want to be in an okay mood and doesn't want to be calmed down.
They want to be right.
They want to take it out on you so you're going to let them.
But then you've created this boundary.
You rise above. I'm going to just let you be upset here.
I'm not going to let it impact me.
And then you say let me.
And what you're reminding yourself of is there's three things in your control, Jay.
What you think, next.
What you do or don't do.
And oftentimes not doing something is the more powerful mood.
And how you process your emotions.
Those are the three things that are always in your control.
And when you say let me take responsibility right now for how I'm going to respond to this, and the word responsibility after all is the ability to respond.
And so when you say let me, and you remember I can think what I want about this, I can act in response to this, and I can process my emotions and either allow them to rise and fall and stay steady and calm.
Or you can certainly erupt if you want to.
But why would you want to?
Because then that means you've given power to somebody else.
Why are we so distracted and obsessed with things we can't control?
I'm sure we all have a friend or know someone who knows they need to be working on their business, but they're talking about the news.
They know they should be writing their book, but they're focused on talking about politics.
They know they should be building the next stage in their career or whatever it may be, trying to get that promotion, work towards that next threshold or whatever they're trying to achieve.
But they're distracted by talking about all the people, all the things, all the ideas that they can do nothing about.
Why are we so addicted to it?
Well, I think there's two reasons because your question is about two different things.
One is why are we focused on things we can't control?
And the other one is sort of like why are we distracted?
And they're interconnected.
So let's just address the issue of control.
Every human being has a hardwired need to be in control of everything because being in control is what makes you feel safe.
So I need to feel in control of my thoughts, my decisions, my environment, my future.
And the problem is so do you.
But part of the need for control, Jay, extends beyond me because if you're doing something that makes me annoyed or irritated or worried about you, now I'm feeling a little unsafe or worried because of what you're doing and so now I'm going to want to control you so that I feel better.
And so it is a fundamental hardwired need inside every human being you know to be in control of yourself.
And yet, the second we step across the line and we try to control someone else, whether it's I think you should be healthier, I think you should be more motivated, I wish you wouldn't leave the Kleenexes when you're blowing your nose.
Whatever it is that you wish someone else would do.
I wish my boss wouldn't talk in every meeting and would give a chance for us to talk.
All of that desire for someone else to change is you attempting to control the uncontrollable.
And so I think one of the reasons why we do this is because we're hardwired to do it.
And the problem becomes that the second I try to control you, Jay, it's not going to motivate you to do what I want you to do.
It's going to bump up against your need for your own control so you're going to push back against me.
Absolutely. And so you also asked about distraction.
I think the reason why we're so distracted is because if you spend so much time and energy allowing the world around you to stress you out and drain your energy, you are now susceptible to being hijacked by meaningless things that are not important to you.
And this is one of the biggest discoveries that I've made about using the Let them theory and researching it has spread around the world is that the single biggest benefit is that you get time and energy back.
You have no idea right now how much time and energy is being wasted or drained because of other people's behavior or your expectations about how you wish things would go.
And once you start noticing all of these little moments all day long, it's like a death by a thousand cuts.
You want to know why you're too tired?
You want to know why you're overwhelmed?
You want to know why you're stressed out?
You want to know why you have no time for yourself?
It's because of the power you give to other people's opinions, their emotions, their immature behavior.
It's the ways in which you are turning people into a problem in your life.
And here's the sad fact.
The sad fact is other people should be the greatest source of happiness and connection and inspiration.
But if you don't truly learn this skill that we're going to talk about today of focusing on what you can control and letting people be who they are, letting things play out as they're playing out, and then bringing the power back in -house and really focusing on how you respond.
If you embrace this skill, you're going to be shocked.
You're going to be shocked by how much time you've wasted.
I'm not kidding. And you're going to be shocked, Jay, by the fact that you've allowed stupid things and people's drama to drain you.
And that's why I also think we're so susceptible to distraction.
Because we've given so much power away all day long.
Because here's the truth.
I'll give you an example.
When I first discovered this and I started playing around with it, the very first way that I used it after I discovered it was I was standing in line.
And we've all been at the grocery store when it's like six people deep and there's one person working and it's like beep, beep, beep.
And you start feeling that wave, right?
And immediately the wave of stress takes over because you're now irritated by what's happening.
And what just happens when you start reacting to that and you allow that stress wave to start to take over is that you're giving power to something outside of you.
Now, I can't control what's happening right now.
So why on earth would I allow it to drain my energy?
Because as it comes up, Jay, what do I then do?
I then start talking to myself.
Well, this is ridiculous.
Why have they not done an announcement?
Like, I got to get going here.
Why are they not bringing another...
Now I'm starting to believe, Jay, that I can run a supermarket better than the people that are running it.
And then you, of course, turn to the person behind you and you're all like, can you believe this?
And now this is the interesting part that I really want everybody...
I really want the person listening to embrace.
In that moment, you just gave away your energy.
And you have a choice.
When you say let them, you instantly feel a release, and then you say, let me decide what I'm going to do right now.
Am I going to leave?
I can leave the store.
That's one thing I can do.
I could stand here and practice being present.
That's another thing I could do.
I could, because I don't have time at the end of the day, and I'm always tired and I'm complaining that I'm lonely, I could actually pick up the phone and call my grandmother.
I could text my friend Jay Shetty because I've been thinking about him.
You have so much power, but you're going to burn through it in that line, and then you're going to feel your stress activated, and then you're going to get in the car, and then somebody's going to pull out in front of you, and then you're going to be stressed again.
And then you're going to walk into work, and you're going to be annoyed in some meeting because of what somebody said, and then that's going to hit you again.
And all day long, because you don't recognize how this stuff is impacting you, that energy inside your body is slowly draining, and this is why you're exhausted.
And so simply starting to use it, whether it's at work or it's just in your daily life, to say, let them.
When you notice that somebody else is irritating you, or your sister is doing that annoying thing, just let her.
Let her be. That example is great, and I love how you explained that difference between just how much you notice how your whole life gets immersed in this tiny thing where you now talk about it.
I've thought about it.
If you were late somewhere, you're getting somewhere with some struggle and trouble, and you had a bad journey getting somewhere, you'll talk about it to everyone.
You'll be like, oh, yeah, this person cut us off in traffic, and then there was this new driver that was figuring out how to learn, and then the cops were around.
If you had the best journey, easiest journey here, you'd describe it in one sentence.
We just get so absorbed, and so I love that example.
I want to paint another scenario for people to really understand the system.
Let's say you have a partner, boyfriend, girlfriend, maybe you're married to them, and this person always turns up from work a little bit late.
They don't wash the dishes, you wake up in the morning, the dishes are always still out there.
There's a sense that you've told them this urge to you a million times.
Did my husband ask you to ask me this question, Jay?
He's amazing. Chris has your number, so he probably texted you.
I'm speaking from so much, not direct personal experience, but personal experience in so many ways.
You're saying this person is not changing, they haven't changed for like two or three years.
No, because this is the fundamental rule, everybody.
Number one, you cannot change another human being.
It is impossible for you to change somebody else.
Now, you can influence them, but you cannot change them.
People only change if they feel like it and if they can.
And wanting and wishing is a wonderful thing.
Wanting and wishing somebody to be cleaner and to pick up after themselves, wanting your kids to be more motivated, wanting the people that you love to take better care of themselves and to be healthier, to date somebody that is normal and healthy instead of the losers that treat them like crap, that's
a beautiful thing for you to want for other people.
And you deserve to do that and you should do that.
Wanting people to change is not the problem.
Wanting bigger possibilities for people is not the problem.
How we go about it is.
And so in the scenario that you're talking about, this is a beautiful example because you have to say, let them.
You see the dishes in the sink, it makes you upset because you feel disrespected and that's annoying and you have higher standards for cleanliness, which means you're probably just going to do them anyway and then you're going to feel like you're really taking whatever for granted.
But you have to say, let them.
And one of the reasons why is because, number one, if this is a long -term committed partnership, learning how to love somebody as they are is a form of love that is deeply important.
And if you can't say, let them, in that moment you are going to get frustrated and angry and then you are going to come to the next part of the let them theory with tremendous intensity and judgment.
And that's not going to motivate change.
What it does when you judge somebody or you push against them is it actually creates resistance to change.
So you have to say let them because it allows you to detach from your emotions and detach from judgment, right?
It is what it is. I see what's happened.
I'm accepting the reality of this.
Let them. Then you come to the let me part.
Is this something that bothers you?
And if it is, remember, you've got three things.
I can choose what I want to think about this.
And so you could think a good thought.
You could think, okay, good intention.
They were probably super busy this morning and they meant to do it later.
Let them, okay? I'm going to choose to believe that.
You could also then remind yourself, let me remind myself, there's something I can do about this, right?
And if it's really important, what you need to do about this is have a conversation.
And by the way, Chris has had this conversation with me a bazillion times.
So if you walk into our bathroom, Chris's bathroom probably looks like your side of the sink, which is it's like a Zen seven star hotel J.
Like there's not a spec on that man's like basin or whatever you call it.
If you look at mine, it looks like somebody tipped over a Walgreens aisle on top of that thing.
And it drives Chris crazy.
But what particularly drives him crazy is when something migrates from my side to his side.
Right. And so he's asked me.
He's asked me to please keep my stuff over there.
He has asked me to please flatten cardboard boxes when they come in.
Don't please pack. Don't unpack them and then stack them by the garage door as if I'm supposed to do it.
And he's asked me and asked me and asked me.
And then I forget. Well, he finally sat me down, Jay.
And this is the let me part.
You have to take responsibility for explaining to somebody what you need and the reason why this is important to you.
Because when Chris said to me, I know you don't intend this, but this is the impact, well, when I see the cardboard boxes stacked or I see your hairbrush and 15 products of yours on my countertop.
It actually makes me feel like you think I'm the maid.
And we don't even have a maid.
Like it's just like it makes me feel like you think it's my job to clean up after you.
And that doesn't make me feel loved.
Now, when he took the time in a very calm way to drop into his values and communicate what he needed, something interesting happens.
If you're in a committed, loving partnership and you're with somebody who wants to do better and cares about you, it taps into their intrinsic motivation to build new skills.
If you have that kind of conversation with somebody and you explain how their behavior impacts you, or it's the tone of their voice, or it's the fact that they leave their stuff everywhere, or it's that they insist that you spend every holiday with their family and they have no interest in your family.
Whatever the issue is, if you sit somebody down and you take responsibility, you've let them be.
And you've let them shown you who they are.
And then you say, let me sit down and talk about this and take responsibility.
I have the ability to respond to this like a mature adult.
And you actually express what you need and why.
And that person doesn't try.
You have to let them.
And here's why. Their behavior is telling you the truth.
Their behavior is telling you what they care about and what their priorities are.
And if their behavior is telling you that your needs are not a priority, you have to let them reveal that.
That's also what let them mean.
Yes. Because then you're going to come back to the second part, which is, let me ask myself, is this kind of behavior from somebody what I deserve?
Is this what I'm willing to accept in somebody?
Because again, what do we also know?
People only change when they want to or they can.
And you might be in a situation where somebody would really love to change, but they can't.
Because they're dealing with some challenge right now or they don't have the skill yet.
And you may decide, if that's the case, to still love and accept the person.
Right. Right. Yeah.
But there may be times where you have had the conversation and it is very clear they're capable of it.
They just won't do it.
Yeah. And what I find in relationships where that sort of invisible distance and the frustration and the resentment comes up is twofold.
Number one, you can't detach from your emotions and say, let them.
And really fully just let the person be who they are.
And you don't do the part, let me, where you actually take responsibility for expressing in a mature way what you need and how their behavior impacts you.
And so if you don't ever express what you need and how it's impacting you, you're not actually giving somebody the opportunity to build a skill or to change or to love you the way that you need them to love you so that you feel loved.
The second mistake that I see constantly is that you make the ask and then the person doesn't do it.
And then you start making excuses and resentment builds and you stay in something, seeing exactly who someone is, wishing they would change, living up here in your mind about the fantasy of what you wish this was, refusing to accept the reality of what it actually is.
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Hi, I'm Essie Kup and I have spent the last 20 plus years knee deep in politics in the news.
I've covered some really tough subjects, from war to genocide to six presidential elections, way too much Trump.
You know what? I need a break, like a mental health break from the news, from the triggering headlines.
And I kind of suspect some of you listening out there might need a break, too.
So my new podcast is going to be just that, a fun and loose space where I talk to my famous friends and people I admire about all the stuff that consumes us when we're not consumed by politics.
I did not really rebel in the 60s.
I had no sex in the 70s.
I made no money in the 80s.
So when true crime came along, I missed that trend, too.
So many great guests are joining me from Josh Mankowitz to Larry Wilmore to Molly Jean Fast to Josh Gad.
I'm so excited that you have this platform.
And I am just like hoping that I don't destroy the platform in its earliest stages.
Listen to Off the Cup on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hey, I'm Jack P. Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature.
I'm Jack P. Thomas and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories.
Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom and refuge between the chapters.
From thought provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture.
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Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life.
Listen to Black Lit on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
You've just unlocked a whole new meaning of Let Them for Me.
How so? I've always understood Let Them.
When I've heard you speak about it, when I read the book, this idea of let them be who they are.
Let them act the way they want to act.
Let them say and do whatever they want to do.
I have to let them.
I have to keep that distance.
What you just unlocked for me, which I really want everyone to grapple with, because I think it's so powerful, is this idea of let them also show you who they are.
And if they're showing you who they are, let them be that person.
Don't make them the person you imagined them to be, the one you want them to be, the one that you're wishing and waiting and hoping for them to be.
They are that person.
Let them be. Oh my gosh, my mind is literally blown because that is so powerful.
But you still have power, Jay, that you're the most important thing, everybody.
This is the most important thing.
This is the epiphany that I had, too.
Like, holy cow. I still get to choose.
I still get to choose.
I get to choose how much time and energy I pour into this, whether it's this issue or it's this topic or it's this person.
And here's how you know if you can actually love somebody for who they are and who they're not.
Can you end your complaining and bitching about it?
Because if you can't do that, then this is something you're holding on to and you're holding over the other person.
And if they're never going to change, you're going to have a problem.
Because the only thing that's going to make the relationship better is either them hearing you and caring enough and being able to adjust or you being the one to adjust.
Because it's your complaining about it that is creating the friction and the resentment.
And this is not only with romantic relationships.
Like, when I think about the broader applications of this for family, there are very challenging people in my extended family, just like everybody's family, right?
And so there's always one person in your life that you wish there just wasn't drama with.
You wish they didn't have a challenging demeanor or personality.
The let them theory has fundamentally profoundly changed my relationship also with people that have been difficult.
Because when I say let them, like, let's say you're talking we're talking about somebody who's very narcissistic or dramatic or victim or they're all it's always about them and very draining person to be around.
Well, part of the reason why they're draining is because you brace and you get ready for it and you allow their energy to impact you.
And I always find it funny, Jay, that especially in families and at work, we allow the most challenging person to have the biggest impact on the whole system.
So if you have one person that's narcissistic in their personality style or that is very, very dramatic and immature in their personality style, they're the one, if you imagine a spider web, right?
I think about a system of relationships like a spider web and you're out in the morning, the do's on it.
When you have a challenging person, because we all tiptoe around this person, that person's energy is like tap, tap, tap and shakes all the do off.
I believe the opposite is true, especially after learning the let them theory because there's been people in my life, both in work life and in my family life, where when that person's around, I literally shrink to eight years old.
I'm dancing around their mood.
We all have had an experience like this.
Maybe you're thinking about a boss or your mother or your father -in -law or a brother or whomever, an adult child, right?
When I walk into these situations now and I say, let them, let them be who they are.
Why am I making it my job to manage your mood?
Why am I pouring time and energy into this drama?
Let me manage my energy.
Let me remind myself.
I can remove myself from any dinner table, any family text chain.
I can remove myself from an interview, a date, a conversation, a relationship anytime I want.
And I believe, Jay, that the person that is the most peaceful and centered and powerful because you understand the power of your energy and your thoughts and your actions, you actually have more power in any family system and any office building, in any room, anywhere, than the most challenging person.
I can agree more. I can agree more.
I love that. And I feel like when you start looking at your energy and time, if you thought about it like money and this idea that imagine for every thought you had about that person, you had to pay them a dollar.
And you think about how many dollars, if you now started to count the amount of thoughts you're having about that person, about that situation, about what they said, about what they said to so -and -so, what they thought about you.
And you had to pay a dollar for every thought you had about them.
That's how much energy, time and money is being wasted.
And we're not realizing where else it could be invested and put in.
But I think you hit the nail on the head there.
The reason is we feel so attached that we don't feel we can actually leave.
As Thich Nhat Hanh would say, we would rather live in the familiar pain than the unfamiliar pain.
At least we know what we're going to get with this person.
And there's a part of us that gets attached to that even subconsciously.
Well, here's the thing, though, Jay.
Because I think it's a really important point that you're bringing up.
But here's what I think you're going to discover.
I think you're only attached to it because you don't value your time and energy.
For sure. You're only attached to it because you've never experienced anything else.
And the reason why you're used to it is because in the relationship dynamic, you're up in your head, usually in a relationship explaining away behavior, instead of actually seeing it with clear eyes and detaching from it.
And that's the other reason, and I know you knew this instantly, that the let them theory and saying let them and let me, one of the reasons why it's so powerful and I'm so excited is I feel literally like I'm surrounded by ancestors because this is a modern application of ancient philosophy, spiritual
guidance, stoicism, detachment theory that you can then apply in any moment in any relationship.
And what I also love about this, Jay, is that I think it allows you to truly see people, perhaps for the first time, and to give them the space to be who they are.
And from that space, what's amazing is you can let people, for example, a lot of us are very triggered and motivated when somebody's disappointed.
Or we think that somebody's going to really be let down by us.
And I had this huge breakthrough because I used to feel really guilty, either by how much I work or the fact that Chris and I raised our kids on the East Coast and my parents are in the Midwest and I love my parents and I wish we all lived together, but here's the thing.
They're not moving to me and I'm not moving to them.
We've got to let them, right?
But there's a lot of emotion about it.
And I know your family's all over the place too, so you're not even like, I'm not saying anything because my family listens to this mouth.
So here's the thing.
If I don't go home with my family for the holidays, my parents are disappointed.
Let them be disappointed.
I mean, isn't that a beautiful thing that they're disappointed?
Don't you want somebody to be disappointed that you're not coming?
That really messes with people's minds.
Right? Like whether you can't make it to a business engagement or you can't make it to a birthday party or you can't make it this year home.
I mean, what's the alternative?
That they're like, thank God, Jay's not coming.
I can't stand him. No, seriously, like really wrap your brain around this.
And so when you say let them be disappointed, something beautiful happens.
You actually honor their experience of being human.
You allow them to be adults.
That is a sign, that emotion that things are really good in your relationship.
But then you say let me.
And the old me would twist myself in knots and then I would make myself feel bad and then I would question what I was doing.
And then I'd bend over backwards, try to be there and try to be here.
And instead, when I say let me, I drop into my values.
I deeply value family.
And so if they're disappointed, that's not the reason I would change plans.
I have to look at what do I think?
What do I want to do?
And how am I going to process my emotions?
And so as someone else is disappointed, the old me would feel deeply guilty and conflicted.
Now with the let them theory, I have space for them to be disappointed and for me to feel a little sad.
But if I change plans, I don't do it for them because if I change plans for them, guess what I just did?
I made them the villain in my life.
If I change plans because it makes me feel like a good daughter, it makes me feel good.
Now I take responsibility for my life and I am owning my decisions.
And it's a small nuance, but it's absolutely everything.
Yeah. Everything. And the other reason why I love this, especially as a parent of adult children and, you know, there are very, this is a book about adult relationships.
And so I make it very clear in the book and there's resources for parents with younger kids in the back.
But one of the coolest things about this is that when you let someone like have their emotions and you let someone struggle while you say, I'm on the sidelines and I'm here to support.
But I know that the greatest teacher in life is life and I'm not going to shield you from the consequences of some of the things that you're choosing.
You're an adult. So I'm going to let you.
When you allow someone the space to process emotion and the space to face their struggles and the space to heal on their own timeline and in their own way, you actually communicate that.
I believe that you can.
Yeah. When you step in and try to force somebody to be more motivated at school or you let's just take that one because there's a lot of people that listen to my show and I'm sure it's the same people that are listening to yours that write in or like, I don't know how to make this person more motivated.
Oh, for sure. Right.
For sure. And so here's what I want you to understand.
And this was another huge breakthrough when I was writing this book.
You want to know the hardest person, hardest working person in a classroom, Jay?
It's the kid who's struggling.
It's not the people that are getting straight A's.
It's the person who's having a really hard time.
Wow. You want to know the hardest person that's working on their health?
It's actually the person that's unhealthy because they know that they want to be healthier.
And so they are not stuck.
They're in deep conflict actively within themselves.
And so if somebody is already aware that there is a gap between their potential and how they're performing, that there is a gap between their God -given right to thrive and be happy and be connected and what their life actually feels like, they know it.
And then you come in and try to impose your will or your good ideas.
Oh, thanks a lot. So I never thought that if I wanted to get good grades, I needed to study and not play video games.
Thank you, Einstein.
Oh, I should go to the gym if I want to lose some weight.
Never thought of that.
So you come in and you have judgment and assumptions.
What is it? That's more pressure on top of somebody who is actually already deeply conflicted with themselves.
And so if you really embrace this and you understand that people change when they feel like it and when they can, and if somebody's struggling, it's because they're not able to right now.
It's a skill that's missing.
And one of the biggest things that's typically missing is the belief that any of the small actions will actually do anything anyway.
Yeah. And so you coming in and imposing it, you know what that says?
It actually says, I don't believe you can do this.
I'll do it for you.
Yes. I can do it for you.
I can solve it for you.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
I remember when me and Radhi actually got married and we moved to America and Radhi will say this herself, that at that time in her life, her parents had made a lot of big decisions for her.
And she was following decisions that they were making or opportunities that they were putting forward.
And all of that was with good intention.
And then when we got married, she'd start to ask me for my advice or my insight.
This would be anything from what plates we should buy for our apartment, through to like what kind of curtains we wanted, right?
We're talking about really small everyday things.
And I remember I would always say to her, well, what do you think?
And she'd always say, no, no, no, you just tell me.
And I'd be like, no, but what do you think?
And in the start, it would really frustrate her.
But now she looks back and she goes, that question helped her so much because it helped her find her own identity, her own strength, her own tastes, her own dislikes.
And now she's a whole human with opinions.
And it's so fascinating to watch that.
And it was because I almost had this forevisioning or this thought that even if I make my life easier by just telling her my tastes and dislikes and likes, it's only going to be easy in the short term because 10 years from now, she's going to think she became the person I wanted her to be and never
became the person she could be.
And I could see that.
And so I set up and I was like, no, you just tell me.
And till this day, I always practice.
I'm like, I think you look beautiful, but I want you to wear what you want to wear.
It shouldn't be about what I think you look better in or worse in.
That just shouldn't be the case.
And it's so interesting how we think love is over caring.
Right. But actually over caring is over enabling that person and overwhelming that person.
And it's control. It's control.
You're not like if you think about what love really is.
And for me, love is two things.
It's consideration, right?
It's having someone in mind.
If you pour in oat milk instead of the cow milk, because that's what they like, that's an act of love.
It's also admiration and admiration is the ability to see something in somebody that you deeply admire.
I want to go back to something that you said, though, because it was genius and it had me think about the idea of the power of your time and energy.
And you were talking about imagine if like your time and your energy had dollars associated with it, because I don't think we value it.
And I started to think about one of the biggest obstacles, because what's ultimately happening when you start to use let them and let me is you're going to see that you've turned other people into a major problem.
And you have turned them into a problem in four ways.
First of all, you allow them to stress you out, but you're not going to do that anymore because you're going to let them be.
But the second way that you've made them a major problem in your life is that you give so much weight to other people's opinions.
And in the example you were just talking about what was happening is by asking you, what do you think?
Roddy was doing what we all do, but most of us do it subconsciously and we don't even realize it, which is before we even ask ourselves what feels right for us, we stop and consider what we think somebody's going to think.
And you have that like really brilliant thing that I've heard you say a bazillion times that I love.
It's not what you think you think it think and I'm like, wait, but so I want to play this out because this is so important was a huge thing for me.
If you open up your favorite social media platform, we've all had the experience where you go and you pick a photo and you then put it up and you're like, okay, should I filter on this?
And you start to then question is this right photo and then you go back to your photo roll and then you start working on the caption, should I put emoji?
Is this too much? Should I do this?
And then you are worried.
Why? Because you're actually thinking about what other people are going to think or do in response to what you're posting.
Yes. Which means if you take the value of it, right?
You just overvalued something that you will never be able to control.
Ever. Ever, ever, ever.
And yet you're doing it subconsciously.
And what typically happens is if you notice everybody's got hundreds of draft posts.
Yeah. You know what that is?
That is a graveyard of energy you wasted on something that you didn't you'll never be able to control because the average person has 70 ,000 random thoughts a day.
You can't even control half the crap that goes in your own mind.
So what makes you think any post is going to guarantee that any human being thinks anything.
And the let them theory revealed to me, Jay, how often I was subconsciously valuing.
Oh, for sure. Someone else.
And that like, are they going to think negative?
They think this is going to think too much.
And there's a such a simple way to change this.
You just let them think negative thoughts.
That's it. The next time you catch yourself stopping to consider what you're going to post or what your colleagues might react to, and that's what's keeping you silent.
Say to yourself, let them think negative thoughts because that's what you're actually afraid of.
Yeah. And so when you say let them think negative thoughts, something wild happens.
You accept the reality that no matter what you do, it doesn't guarantee that anybody thinks anything.
Yeah. And then you say let me and here's where this gets really cool.
Let me remind myself I can think what I want and I can do what I want.
And your social media in particular, as you and I both know, it's your self expression.
That's what it's there for.
And if you can't allow yourself to express yourself there, then it's going to be everywhere where you edit yourself because you're not just letting people think negative thoughts.
For sure. But if you operate in a way now and you now take the value, you take the money back, we're not going to pay Jay the money for his opinion.
I'm going to take the money back and where I'm going to put the value is operating in a way that makes me feel proud of myself.
Because when I operate in a way, whether I'm posting something or I'm speaking in a meeting or I'm showing up and not responding to my dramatic whatever, I'm proud of myself.
And when you're proud of yourself, you don't even consider what other people are thinking.
Because you've just anchored all of your worth inside of yourself.
And that's why this is another reason why this is so unbelievably powerful.
Or finally revisit that chapter you've been meaning to write.
But here's the truth.
Life isn't about resolutions that fade by February.
It's about realizing you're the author of your story and deciding how you want it to unfold.
Think of therapy as your trusted co -author.
It's there to guide you, challenge you and help you create a story that's full of purpose, growth and meaning.
Therapy helps you uncover patterns, navigate challenges and build the tools to live the life you truly want.
Hey, I'm Giana Perranti.
And I'm Jamee Jackson Gadsden.
We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and I Heart Podcasts.
When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions.
Like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed?
Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job?
Girl, yes! Each week we answer your unfiltered work questions.
Think of us as your work besties.
You can turn to for advice.
And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do.
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The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies.
Yeah. I think a lot about that quote.
What is it? Like you miss 100 % of the shots you never take.
Yeah, rejection is scary but it's better than you rejecting yourself.
Together we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep.
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What's up y 'all? This is Questlove and you know at QLS I get to hang out with my friends Sugar Steve, Laia, Von Tigolo, Unpaid Bill.
And we, you know at Questlove Supreme, like to nerd out and do deep dives with musicians and actors and politicians and journalists.
We give you the stories behind all your favorite artists and creatives that you have never heard.
I'm talking about stories behind their life journeys and their works of art.
I love QLS because of the QLS Team Supreme.
They're like a second family to me.
If you're a fan of deep diving into music, everything, almanacing your musical history, and learning things about hip -hop artists and things you never thought, then you're a lot like me.
But you're also a fan of Questlove Supreme.
One of the things I love the most about this show is that we get to learn from the masters.
I look at being on this show as my graduate program in music.
Listen to Questlove Supreme on the iHeartRadio app.
I have a podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
Yeah. And the truth is no one's thinking about you for as long as you think.
It's true. No one's thinking about you for as much as you think.
No one's thinking about you as much as they even say they're thinking about you.
And we just, like you said, we keep draining that energy consumed by it.
You reminded me of the beautiful Charles Horton Cooley quote, and he wrote this in 1890.
And he said, the challenge today is, I'm not what I think I am.
I'm not what you think I am.
I am what I think you think I am.
Which means we live in a perception of a perception of ourselves.
So if I think, Mel thinks I'm not smart, then I don't think I'm smart.
So it's not even reality.
It's not even factually proven or checked or tested.
By the way, everything in the Let Them Theory, this book is literally every thought.
Those 70 ,000 thoughts, that's what you're addressing in this book.
And Let Them, two words gets rid of this fear.
It literally does. I've talked to at least three friends this week, and all of them are concerned by either, hey Jay, I'm thinking about posting a video on social media, I'm scared of what people will think.
So that's for their professional or their passion.
I've got another friend who's worried that a lot of our other friends are talking about him negatively because he's recently fallen out with them.
And so he's worried.
Like what are they saying?
They're all talking to each other?
What rumors are they spreading about me?
Like maybe it's not true.
And the thing that they're holding on to is they just can't let them.
No, but they can. See, I don't think they have the tool.
See, here's the thing.
If you're worried that people are gossiping about you, let them.
Let them gossip about you.
Here's why. You can't control it.
It's going to happen anyway.
Yes. And so if you can't control it, why on earth would you allow any time or energy to be wasted?
It's an act of self -torture.
So if you are worried that people are gossiping about you, first of all, let them gossip about you.
Because they're going to do what they're going to do because you cannot change what other people do.
You can't control what they think, you can't control what they do.
If they're going to gossip, they're going to gossip.
So let them gossip.
And when you say that, it's a relief because you actually acknowledge the thing that you've been afraid of, and it's like you're allowing it without allowing it.
But then don't forget, you have power.
Let me remind myself that I get to choose what I think about myself.
I get to decide what I do and what I don't do, whether or not I respond or not.
And I get to decide who I spend time with.
And so the bigger question becomes, if you're busy worrying about, which means you're spending time and energy, people who are gossiping about you, why would you want to be friends with them?
And so now you take responsibility for your own part in chasing people that aren't treating you in a way that you deserve.
And you recognize that the power here is in just letting people be.
And when you let people be, your relationships get better because people reveal who they are and where you stand, and then you get to choose how much time you spend or not.
And not everybody in your life deserves an explanation.
They don't deserve a response necessarily.
And so you also get to choose who you tell your story to or who you apologize to or how you respond to it.
And that's where your power is.
And I'm not saying this makes it easy, because you're probably in a situation like that going to have to say let them, let them, let them.
And then you're going to see them on social media and you're going to be like, should I block them, should I not block them, are they going to see if I do that, should I not?
Let them. Let them live their lives.
And if I want to unfollow them, let me do that because I get to choose what comes into my space or not.
And when you start to really play around with this, because one of the big pushbacks that I've gotten in the research is, what, am I just going to be a dorm animal, let people abuse me and let people know?
Actually, it's the opposite because you're probably allowing it right now and then explaining it away.
When you say let them, you're letting somebody's behavior speak.
And then you have to bring it back to yourself and say, I've got to let them reveal who they are.
And if this person keeps gaslighting me or not including me, now I've got to ask myself, is this actually the relationship for me?
Mel, do you think we expect too much from people?
I do. I think everybody's really busy and life is very overwhelming.
And you have no idea what's going on in other people's lives.
And we've gotten to a point in today's world where if I text you, I expect Jay to respond.
And if Jay doesn't respond, then I make it mean something about Jay or me.
And I hate that because it doesn't give people grace.
We're constantly expecting people to show up a certain way and then judging them when they don't, instead of stopping to consider that other people have lives and other people have a lot of things going on.
And sometimes when people go silent on you, it has nothing to do with you.
It has to do with a crazy busy period in life.
Or it has to do with the fact that something's going on with their family.
And they're so drained at the end of the day that the last thing they want to do is talk to anybody.
And so I do think we expect too much because relationships feel very like transactional.
You do this for me, I do this for you.
I text you, you better text me back.
Now there are rules in terms of just being courteous to people and being gracious to people.
But I'm deeply concerned, Jay, about the rise of both estrangement.
I'm concerned about the amount of posts that go viral about, you know, I got my life better because I cut all the talks of people out.
And I stop and think always, well, did you have a conversation about what was bothering you?
Because if you just ghost other people or you use the silent treatment, that's actually punishing somebody.
And that's extremely immature, actually.
It means you can't handle your own emotions, which is why you don't have a hard conversation about what you need or how someone's behavior is impacting you.
And if you haven't had that, it's very immature move to just cut somebody off.
And so I get very worried about the labeling of people as toxic and about the ease at which people seem to just drop people.
And what I really love about the let them theory is that it opens up the window to a lot more compassion because we're quick to think that if somebody hasn't texted you back or you've texted somebody a couple times and they haven't responded that you did something bad.
And it's perfectly fine to be like, did I do something?
You know, I noticed you haven't responded.
Is everything OK? If they don't respond then, then something's probably wrong either with them or with you and you get to decide what you're going to do next.
But I am worried about the combination of people being isolated, of people spending way too much time on their phones instead of with each other, and that we've gotten very transactional with one another.
And it's easy to forget that people have a lot going on and they're not thinking about you as much as you're thinking about them.
And just because you have time to text them doesn't mean they have time right now to text you back.
And I guarantee you when they saw your text, they probably thought, oh my God, I love it, you know, I got it.
And then something came up.
And so I do worry about it, Jay.
I do think we have too much of an expectation of something in return.
And when you start to use this theory, what you're also going to notice is this.
When you start to say let them, you will notice that maybe you're the sibling that reaches out more.
And it might bother you because when you say let them and you keep reaching out and they don't reach out or you have a group of friends and you notice that when you stop reaching out or making the plans that you're not included in theirs and that hurts.
The thing I used to do when that happened is I would make it about me.
I would make it like some deficiency in me.
And what I've learned using the let them theory and really just saying let them, which detaches from the hurt, it detaches from the judgment, it reminds you that adults are allowed to live their lives.
Adults are allowed to come and go in friendship.
They're allowed to prioritize certain people at certain times.
They're allowed to have busy periods at work.
They're allowed to fall in and out of communication.
And the more you let people live their lives, the better your life gets and the more compassionate of a human being you become.
And the more I've started to recognize, oh wait, like my social life is my responsibility.
If I have a group of friends where if I make the plans, everybody's included but if I sit back, I'm never invited, then now I got to examine am I investing in the right group of friends.
Or you might also wake up and realize, well maybe I just like really like introverted people, but I'm the party planner and that's my role in life.
And instead of you being transactional, you actually recognize the gift that it is to people, right?
And you know, it sucks that maybe your siblings get together because they live closer and they don't include you.
And it does hurt and feeling a little bit of pain like that means your mind and body is working properly, right?
It's a sign that you're mentally well.
It doesn't mean there's a sign that there's anything wrong with you.
And so when you can say let them and then you say let me decide what I want to do about this, you can have the conversation and you might realize that they just click and you don't have as close to the relationship.
But then you get to decide how you value family and if you're going to bring different energy or if you're going to try a little bit harder because again, you get to choose.
And when you realize how much power you have, you see that through the way you think about it or you respond to it, you actually can shift anything for the better.
For sure. And I'm really excited about this.
I wrote this actually with my daughter who's 25 and it was an amazing experience because she was bringing a much different perspective.
And when we wrote the section about how you use the Let Them Theory with love, she started researching the breakup section because the fact about love is people choose who and how they love and sometimes they won't choose you.
But you also get to choose who and how you love and how you're going to create it and people forget that.
And so we get to the part about when a relationship is ending and her boyfriend of two years breaks up with her.
And she's like. While you're writing the book.
This is like this is horrible.
I have to let him walk out the door.
I have to let him leave with this bullshit.
Like just like and it was this unbelievable experience because when somebody that you love is grieving or going through heartbreak or struggling, you would jump in front of a car to take their pain away.
And the Let Them Theory and the experience of this book taught me that the best thing I could do was to let her grieve, to let her be heartbroken, to let her go through her process.
You know, I think about it this way like arm around somebody.
You're not blocking and tackling.
You've got your arm around somebody.
But if she's on the floor sobbing, let her because she needs to.
You know, if we need to remove the photos from the family thing because this is a two year long relationship because that is actually a huge recommendation that I make in this book that you've got to follow a 30 day rule of zero context, zero photos, zero videos because you're not just letting them
leave. You have to unlearn the patterns of your life that were with them.
It's a withdrawal like anything else.
Yes. And any sign of that person actually triggers the old patterns in your nervous system and it delays your ability to move through it.
Absolutely. And it's impossible when you're in it to just let them move on because every part of your wiring and programming, you're going to want to check their location.
You're going to want to listen to the voice memos.
You're going to want to saturate yourself because the life that you wanted is over and you're either going to trap yourself in a life that you're no longer in by watching their life play out from afar.
And you're going to keep re triggering these patterns in your nervous system because you're going to keep this person in your life, even though they walked out the door, which is why you have to let them.
And then you've got to let me do the hard part, which is I get to choose how I'm going to move through this.
And the research is also really empowering.
It gets better for the majority of people, 71 percent of people start to feel better by 11 weeks.
That's not 11 weeks.
11 weeks. And you may feel better in 11 days.
What happens at 11 weeks?
What happens at 11 weeks if you're not cyber stalking somebody is that you've actually allowed your body to break the old patterns.
See the reason why when you're going through a heartbreak and heartbreak and breakups are just like death, that's what they are.
For sure. Because you're grieving what's no longer there.
The life you have, the life you could have had.
Yes. And aside from the 30 day rule, which is remove like, do not look at voice memos, location, social, nothing, no photos because it triggers everything to stay alive in you.
But during those 30 days, what's going to happen is every time you wake up, you're going to feel them there because your body remembers.
That doesn't mean that's a sign you should get back together.
That's actually a sign that you're unlearning something.
Let those memories come up.
Let your nervous system processes.
Every time you have news in your life, you're going to want to reach out to them.
Why? Because that was the pattern.
That doesn't mean you should.
So you've got to do that.
Let them leave and let me remind myself, I'm going through this process.
And every day that you do that, you're actually unlearning these patterns.
And by the time you get to about 30 days, you feel less intoxicated.
Another huge recommendation is do something in your bedroom, like paint a wall, move the bed.
Do something because you spent a lot of time there.
So walking back into it is like a graveyard of your old life.
And it can be very triggering.
And so she did that.
And the 11 -week mark is important because what's happening is you're now starting to create new patterns.
As you've let them leave, you're now letting me move on.
You're letting me take the actions that show me that my life is moving forward.
And my therapist, Ann Davin, who's the smartest human being I've ever met, she said, you know, Mel, the thing for Sawyer to ask herself is if she knew that the love of her life were literally just a couple months away.
What would you do right now with this period of time?
And when you think about it that way, because again, as long as you're holding on to somebody who already left, you actually are not open to meeting anybody else.
Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry.
We're going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone.
We're going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life.
We're going to be talking with some of my best friends.
I didn't know we were going to go there.
I'm going to be talking with people that I admire.
When we say, listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on.
Authors of books that have changed my life.
Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy.
And basically, I have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life.
I already believe in myself.
I already see myself.
And so when people give me an opportunity, I'm just like, oh, great.
You see me too. We'll laugh together, we'll cry together and find a way through all of our emotions.
Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one.
Listen to a really good cry with Riley DeBlucia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
That is beautiful. That idea of what would you look like?
What would you be thinking?
How would you behave if the love of your life was two months away?
Yeah. Or two years away or a year away or whatever.
You see, because we think, because when somebody leaves that you love, you think you're unlovable.
You actually think you're never going to find it again.
You hate yourself. That's why most of the advice about this is complete bullshit.
Go love yourself? How the hell am I going to go love myself?
And the person I love more than anything just left me.
I hate myself. I despise myself.
I am terrified of the day that they're going to meet somebody.
I'm never going to find that again.
I'm never going to have sex like that again.
You hate yourself. So telling somebody to just go on a revenge diet or, you got to love yourself, it's horrible.
Instead, I want you to face reality.
They left. Let them.
And then let me grieve.
And follow my therapist, Ann Davins advice.
You have to do a 30 -day detox.
And if you are somebody that's been holding on to somebody that left a year ago, I guarantee you, you have not gone 30 days without listening to a voice memo or looking at a photo.
You are keeping them alive, which is keeping you trapped in something that's dead.
And your inability to let them go and let them leave and then let me accept reality and start moving forward and let me believe that the person that I am meant to meet, they are in the future.
They're not in my past.
And by the way, even if you kind of hold out secretly hope, it might be the person from the past.
It might be, but they're not the version from back there.
And neither are you.
And neither are you.
And so you have to, again, come back to where the power is.
It's not in getting them back.
It's not in making them jealous because if you focus on making that person jealous or whatever, where are you putting your power?
Then. And something you can't control.
You have to put your power here.
And the reason why I love the 30 -day rule and the 11 -week mark is because it's the truth.
This is going to suck.
The only way to get over someone and to go through heartbreak is to go through it.
There's no avoiding it.
There's only delaying it.
And we delay it. Because we don't want to accept people as they are.
When somebody breaks up and leaves or cheats on you, they have just revealed who they are.
For sure. And your inability to accept it, instead of explaining it away and living in a fantasy up here, that's what's keeping you from having and creating the love you actually deserve and want in your life.
I was talking to a friend recently, and everything you're saying is just so true.
And it's resonating so strongly to me.
I was talking to a friend recently.
And she was saying to me, I wish my friend would just be honest with me.
I wish this person who's just screwed me over, just let me down, would just be honest with me rather than pretending to be my friend.
And I said to them, they are being honest with you.
Them lying is showing you their truth.
That's how much they value you.
Them pretending to be your friend is their truth.
You don't want the truth, actually.
You want them to lie to you, and you want them to be someone else.
You want them to become the honest person.
But they're showing you that they're not an honest person.
That is the truth. It's true.
And here's the other thing.
Why are you pretending to be this person's friend and not bringing it up?
Why is it on them to tell you the truth?
Let them lie to you and then come to the let me part.
Aren't you pretending that you're their friend if you haven't brought this up?
And you're actually holding that in your head, right?
There are so many applications of this.
So many. It's just incredible.
And the thing that I'm really, really excited about is that, you know, the other massive thing that I think is going to help people with is that one other way that you make people a massive problem is that you see somebody else's success or happiness or the things that they achieve in their life is somehow
robbing you of yours.
And the thing about life is that you're never playing against people.
You play with them.
And somebody else's success, happiness, love, like the things that they achieve, it's in limitless supply.
And when you wrap your brain around the fact that happiness, love, money, like all of it, limitless supply.
So other people can't block your way.
They actually lead the way.
And so if you let them lead the way and you see their wins not as your losses, but you see it as an example to follow, you now stop making other people a problem and you stop using them as an excuse for why you can't do what you're capable of.
Other people don't block you.
You block your way.
Allow people to lead the way.
And the way that you do that is you say, let them be successful.
Let them get married.
Let them have the baby.
Let them have the nice car because they're showing me what's possible.
And the cool thing about really embracing let them in that regard is that other people also show you the formula.
Yeah, absolutely. They show you exactly how to do something.
100%. But if you're so busy going, oh, well, Jane launched a podcast and there's too many podcasts now.
I can't launch podcasts.
Who's blocking you?
You. Correct. You're capable of learning to be a better player in the game of life from other people.
So stop playing against them and let them show you the way.
Mel, why is it so hard to make friends as we get older?
There is a massive shift that happens in adult friendship when you hit 20 that nobody sees coming.
The rules of friendship completely change when you're 20 -sit.
And I'm going to explain the rules when you're little and then we're going to talk about the rules of adult friendship.
So when you're little, your entire life is organized around friendship and making it possible because you're with people your age all the time in class and sports.
So true. You move in groups because you're on teams and you're in neighborhoods and you're always together.
You also celebrate the same milestones.
You're hitting the same birthdays.
You're all talking about the next level of school or the this thing this summer.
You're watching the same movies because you're all the same age.
And so there's so much synergy and relevance and the conditions to spend a ton of time together are there.
Then you get to university and you spend even more time together.
And what happens when you hit your 20s, right, is that it moves from this big group sport where you just kind of expect to be around your friends all the time.
You expect the group to get invited because that's what's always happened.
You expect to see them all the time because you do always see them all the time.
But then your 20s hit, the rules change and what I call the great scattering happens.
Everybody moves in different directions.
And friendship goes from group sport to individual sport.
You can no longer expect friendship.
You are no longer part of a group that is expected to be invited everywhere because everybody scatters.
And suddenly everybody's on different timelines.
You're in different cities.
You're moving in different directions.
So there's no way to locate yourself inside your friend group.
And the only thing that's keeping you together from your friends, from your little, is a text chain that starts to go quieter and quieter and quieter as people start to focus on the people in front of them.
And that brings me to two major shifts that I want you to embrace using the let them theory.
Number one, you can no longer expect friendship.
You have to take a way more flexible approach and a more proactive approach.
You've got to let people come and go.
Super important. And then you've got to let me take the actions to create the friendships.
I've got to go first.
I've got to be the one planning.
I've got to seek out new people.
But there are three pillars of adult friendship based on research that are also going to help you understand that when people come and go in your life, 99 % of the time, it's not personal.
And you actually haven't lost them as a friend.
One of the three pillars is missing.
So the three things that need to be required to have a friendship happen are the same three things that were around all the time when you were a kid.
Number one, proximity.
Proximity matters tremendously.
Proximity means who are you actually physically next to?
In fact, they've done research, Jay.
If you and I were in a dorm and we lived across the hall, I don't remember the percentages exactly, but it's like 90 % chance we're going to be friends.
Interesting. The poor person at the end of the hallway, 10 % chance that we're going to be friends with them because of proximity.
Even a matter of 50 feet makes a difference.
And so when you were little, you were in proximity to people your age all the time.
All day. Exactly. The research also shows that to have as an adult a kind of casual friend, you need to spend approximately 70 hours with somebody.
To have a close friend, 200 hours.
So when you're an adult, that creates a big problem.
Because who are you spending all your time with once you're 20?
The American Times study shows that it's with people you work with.
So why aren't we best friends with people at work?
Because you have proximity and you're spending a lot of time together, but here's the thing, timing.
When you were little, you were in the same timing of life with everybody.
When you hit your 20s and it's now individual, everybody's on different timelines.
Some of your friends are getting married, some are going to graduate school, some are now pursuing jobs, other people are moving out of the city, into the city, everybody's timing is now different.
And this also explains why you're almost never best friends with people at work.
Because the timing is off.
You're sitting next to people that are in very different times of their life.
You may like them a lot and you may be friends, but you never spend time outside of work because they're at home with their family and you're going out with your buddies your age on the weekends.
And then that brings me to the third thing that needs to be present for a friendship to truly click and that's energy.
And the thing about energy is it changes.
And you can have fantastic energy with somebody and then if you decide you're not drinking anymore, the energy's off.
If you decide to get really focused on fitness, the energy's off.
If you have very different political beliefs, the energy's off.
It's not personal. It's one of these three pillars and it has helped me so profoundly, Jay, to realize that people come and go and it's a beautiful thing and you should let them.
And you should really, if you have a friendship that starts to dissipate, right?
Ask yourself, before you blame them or you blame you, are any one of these three pillars missing?
Are we not near each other anymore?
Is the timing of our lives off?
Is there just something about the energy that hasn't clicked?
Because you can't force those things.
But what I've found is that when you recognize that those are really important factors to your connection to someone else, that if a friendship starts to fade for me, it's so easy to say let them and I don't wish anybody bad.
I literally wish people well.
Because the other thing that I've learned and being 56, I've had a lot of friends come and go in different phases of my life, that you would be startled by how many people from your past that you no longer, quote, consider friends because you haven't seen them in a very long time or things just got
weird. If you actually called them, they'd pick up the phone.
They would. If you texted them, the research shows that when you get a surprise text from somebody that you haven't heard from in a long time, the amount of joy that you feel.
And so I want you to consider, if you're very lonely right now, that there's actually probably hundreds of people from your past that still consider you a friend.
And if you take the approach that I'm talking about, which is friendship is your responsibility.
You need to go first.
Let me create the friendship and the connection that I want.
And you can start by literally taking a look through your past and thinking about people that you remember fondly and just sending them a text.
And you will be startled by what comes back because they're there.
They haven't actually gone anywhere.
The connection is still there.
And oftentimes, even if you've had somebody where something's been off, again, let them and wish them well.
And there will be a time, I promise you, where the timing or proximity or energy comes back around again.
Yeah. And often you're so right when as I'm listening to you talk, I'm just thinking of how conscious we have to be with all of our relationships, the ones that matter to us, the ones that we want to invest in.
And it's what you said.
We were actually dealt such a tough card in the fact that basically from the moment you joined school at four, till the moment you were 21 if you went to college, you basically didn't have to make really any major decisions or think about the next step because you went from seventh grade to eighth grade
to ninth grade to whatever it is.
And so then all of a sudden you're in the world at 21 or 18 if you didn't go to college and you all of a sudden now have to figure out what to do for the next 50, 60 years.
All structure of your life just evaporates.
Just disappears because there is more structure and it makes no sense.
And as I'm hearing you talk, it sounds like to me that it would have been harder to watch your daughter have to practice the let them theory than it is for you to practice the let them theory.
Yes. When she was going through her breakup.
Would you say that's in your deep vicinity of people that you're close with the hardest way you've had to practice to let them do?
Yes, the hardest way is when you recognize the potential in somebody and you see them struggling.
And when you recognize that somebody that you love deeply is in pain.
When you're saying let them, you're not abandoning somebody.
You're actually recognizing their ability to meet these difficult moments in their life with you by their side.
And I think when I think about supporting versus enabling because the more you kind of step in and rescue people from their feelings or from the consequences of their decisions or their inaction, the more people continue to drown and their problems.
I really believe that.
I do too. I really believe that.
And it's a very, very difficult balance because you're going to hit your frustration and rock bottom and worry with somebody before they do.
And somebody said something in the addiction community, I can't remember who said this, but it just is so true that somebody only gets sober when getting drunk is harder than facing the thing that they don't want to face.
And the same is true with anything, like really motivating yourself to get in better shape, recognizing that you have a pattern of dating people that are emotionally abusive and taking a break and really digging deep into the issue that keeps coming up for you.
That's really hard.
That's why we avoid it.
And so when you see somebody that you know is capable or who deserves better, wanting that for them is a form of loving them.
You should want the people in your life that you care about to be doing better.
And I hate seeing somebody with so much potential squandering it.
But again, I'm going to come back to something that I learned from Dr.
Stuart Ablon at Mass General Hospital.
People do well in the can.
And I want you to start to assume that if somebody in your life is not doing well, or if they're going through a challenge, there is a skill that's missing or there is a motion that needs to be processed or there is pain that needs to be felt before they can galvanize the ability to do the very difficult
work to change. And in the case of watching my daughter go through this heartbreak, I mean, I literally found myself, Jay, wanting to text her boyfriend and her boyfriend's mother like, you know, hey, me, we can...
just because I want to fix it.
But when you step in and fix it, you literally demean someone else because I do know that she has the ability to move through this.
And so the way that I love thinking about support is this way.
The next time you have somebody in your life who is truly struggling, whether it's in school or in relationships or with an addiction, I want you to think, how can I create an environment that supports their healing?
Not stepping in and doing it.
It's rarely an issue of will.
Like, it's not willpower for people or the desire.
It's actually more about skill and the ability and need to process things and do it on their own timeline, right?
So how can you create an environment for that to happen?
And for me, it meant removing any imagery.
It meant letting her stay up in her bedroom and every once in a while knocking on the door and being like, do you need anything?
And allowing her to be in her pajamas for four days and be in a depressive state, because guess what?
Being in a depressive state and falling on the floor and crying, it's a sign she's mentally well.
That's what you do.
It's a sign that you're okay.
Yes. It would be scary if she wasn't feeling anything.
And then when you're ready, you kind of put your arm around people.
And so how can you do this?
Like, when she was born actually, Sawyer, I had severe postpartum depression, Jay.
I had a very traumatic delivery, lost a lot of blood, and I just was so out of it that they put me on these drugs that turned me into a zombie.
I couldn't breastfeed her.
I wasn't allowed to be alone with her.
I missed the first three and a half months of her life.
And nobody asked me if I needed help.
They showed up and created an environment where I could get better.
I had my parents drive out and just stay and they just did laundry and they cleaned and they did what needed to be done.
And people who are struggling, they don't even know what they need.
And so don't ask somebody what you can do.
Find something you can do.
Show up with a meal.
Walk into your brother's bedroom and pull open the curtains in the morning when he's struggling with depression so the sunlight comes in.
Create a playlist for somebody.
Pick them up. Like, don't say you want to meet at yoga.
Say, here's what we're going to do.
I'm going to come over on Saturday and pick you up and we're going to go to that yoga class.
Or I'm going to come over on Sunday and I'm going to watch the kids and the dog so you can go to the park and read a book for two hours.
That's how you create an environment for someone else to get better.
And the other way that you do it is instead of judging, you're going to let them be who they are.
You're going to let them struggle.
And then you're going to use this technique that's incredibly effective.
I labeled it the ABC so that I could remember it.
First, you're going to apologize.
So let's talk about, like, this is an issue I had with our son.
He didn't seem motivated.
So I would constantly be like, why aren't you motivated?
Why don't you study hard?
Why are you doing this?
It didn't work. Yeah, it doesn't work.
No. And so I finally, A, you're going to apologize.
I'm sorry I'm pressuring you.
I'm sorry I'm questioning you.
And then, A, you're going to ask an open -ended question.
How do you feel about this issue?
And it doesn't matter what they say.
Because you're probably asking for the first time how they actually feel about the issue.
And then you're going to ask a really important question.
You're going to ask, what would you like to do about it, if anything?
And their answers don't matter because what you're doing by apologizing is you're removing the pressure that you're bringing.
And now by asking these questions, and I like to do this in a car jay because they're trapped, and because you're both looking ahead so it's not as confrontational.
And there's something in the science around forward ambulation and the movement that actually opens up your thinking.
And then you ask, what do you want to do about it, if anything?
And what happens is you're now revealing this tension because people that are stuck know it.
People that are struggling know it.
People who are failing at school know it.
Nobody wants to fail.
It's not like people are trying to be depressed.
It's not like people are trying to be very unhealthy.
People know when they're letting themselves go.
You don't need to remind them.
But have you ever asked them, what would you like to do about this, if anything?
What happens in that question, whether they answered or not, is that friction between what they know to be true about what they desire and where they actually are rises up.
That is the organizing intrinsic motivation that somebody needs to want to do better.
And then you've got to do B, back off.
That's the hard part, let them, let them, let them, let me shut up, let them, let me not roll my knives.
And people need space to have it be their idea.
And I'll give you a quick example.
I used to be the kind of person that would eat lunch and work on my computer.
I'm tapping on my computer, shoving a sandwich on my throat, right?
And there would be this colleague that would stand up and go for a walk most days.
And every time she came back, she'd have a smile on her face and she'd take her earbuds off and she'd then get back to work.
And this would go on for weeks.
And then finally, one day, Jay, I look up outside and it's a nice day and I think I'm going to go for a walk.
Now, here's the interesting thing.
I didn't credit her.
I thought it was my idea.
Her example influenced my desire to do it.
The people that you are close to need enough distance from you.
This is why you have to back off for that friction.
And that stirring to sit with them in order for them to feel safe to be able to take the step forward.
And then you better keep backing off because you do not want to be like, oh, I saw you in a matter of your time.
Like that's kind of, no.
And so you keep going, let them.
And then the C part is any small thing, you celebrate it in a non -passive, aggressive way and you actually model the change.
You can't ask somebody to stop drinking while you're pouring yourself a glass of wine.
For sure. You can't ask somebody else to get healthy if you're sitting on the couch eating chips.
So you model the change and make it easy, just like my colleague did with the walk.
And just like you and I constantly buy things online because it looks so easy and fun, your behavior and backing off and that tension inside them actually creates the space for somebody to truly want to change.
And that's how it's done.
Mel, I want to thank you so deeply for writing this book.
The Let Them Theory, a life -changing tool that millions of people can't stop talking about.
It's true. Mel, I've learned so much from you today, honestly, and you've connected so many dots to me.
I know I'm going to be recommending this book to so many people in my life because I really believe it's the thing that's holding them back.
I want to thank you for writing it.
I want to thank you for pouring your heart into it.
I want to thank you for just showing up so brilliantly and emphatically today as you always do.
And I'm just so grateful to call you a friend and grateful to know you in this journey called life and genuinely so thankful that you're constantly trying to find really simple practical tools that all of us can apply in our lives to make it easier and make it a bit more livable but also thrive.
So thank you so much, truly.
Well, I'm not as smart as you, Jay, so I can't do the intellectual stuff.
I got to find simple things.
Are you kidding me?
Well, you know, I have to tell you, I really appreciate.
Simple is beautiful.
And I truly accept and feel how heartfelt and honest those words are, because this is, I think, my legacy.
I do. I think that this is the thing I was supposed to figure out and leave the world.
I believe it, too. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm the best.
So are you. Thank you.
If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr.
Gabo Matei on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.
Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable.
So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it?
It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.
What's up, y 'all? This is Questlove.
And, you know, at QLS I get to hang out with my friends, Sugar Steve, Laia, Fon -Tigolo, Unpicked Bill.
And we, you know, at Questlove Supreme, like, to nerd out and do deep dives with musicians and actors and politicians and creatives and people that we feel really deserve that attention.
We learn, we laugh, we fall down rabbit holes.
Listen to Questlove Supreme on the iHeartRadio app.
Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, I'm Jackley Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature.
Black Lit is for the page -turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while running errands or at the end of a busy day.
From thought -provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture.
Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
