Hello and welcome to the NVIDIA AI Podcast.
I'm your host, Noah Kravitz. Lennon and McCartney, Ashford and Simpson, AI and anybody?
Some of our favorite songs of all time, across any genre, were written by songwriting duos.
As you might have guessed from that last pairing, our guest today is aiming to make AI the perfect songwriting partner for most anyone.
Dr. Maya Ackerman is CEO of Wave AI, a Silicon Valley startup that's using AI and machine learning to, as they put it, unlock new heights of human creative expression.
Their Lyric Studio software is an AI-based lyrics writing assistant for lyrics and creative writing.
And Dr. Ackerman is here to tell us all about it.
Maya, thanks so much for taking the time to join the NVIDIA AI podcast.
It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
So tell us about Wave AI and what Lyric Studio is.
Yeah, so Wave AI is, as you said, all about helping people be creative.
So unlike the way that creative AI sometimes conveyed in the media, it's not about It's not about the AI being creative.
It's about how can AI help us tap into our own creative potential. all the way from people who are trying to be creative in a new domain that they never tried before.
So like a person who has never written lyrics before. to a professional that has to write three, four songs a day and is looking for a way to tap into their creativity more efficiently.
And Lyric Studio specifically focuses on on lyrics writing, on lyrics and poetry.
We have other technology to complete the songwriting process, but Lyric Studio has been our primary focus right now.
And so how does it work? We were talking before we hit record that it's a, We're an audio-only podcast, obviously, so we can't do a visual demo.
There are some great ones on YouTube that I watched before coming on.
Folks can check those out and obviously the website, but maybe you can kind of walk us through with words best you can how Lyric Studio works.
So Lyric Studio is extremely simple, very, very user-friendly.
You come in and you can either begin your song by specifying a couple of topics, You can actually specify any topics you want or choose from a long list of common topics for lyrics writing.
Another option is you can simply specify a genre.
And then begins this very natural interactive process where Lyric Studio comes up with original lines for you.
You can choose from those lines whenever you're stuck, whenever you need to be inspired.
You can edit those lines very often. A few words in a line will inspire something.
And at any point, you can write your own stuff.
And so what happens is when new people come in, they click on suggestions.
They start clicking and then they're like, oh, I kind of like this line, but I think I'll change it a little bit.
They start making these little changes which very, very quickly in real-time over the first 10-20 minutes of them interacting with the system, they start building the confidence needed to start writing their own material.
And so even with people that are writing their first song, It's already an interaction.
It's already something that sparks their own inner creativity.
And then of course, more mature songwriters sometimes It's that one line that unblocks a song that they didn't finish for years. because it helps them explore the creative space.
So try creative possibilities and go to a creative domain that's far enough from how they're used to writing.
Humans and machines have really different creative capabilities.
Machines, especially the way that we build Lyric Studio, it's amazing at exploring the space of possibilities. sort of trying new creative directions, generating ideas.
Whereas people, even professionals, even very talented, extremely talented people, we tend to sort of stick with certain ways of exploring the creative space.
We have our styles. We have our form of creativity that we're good at.
And breaking out of that, finding ways to enter new creative spaces, is really, really powerful.
And that's really where the strength of creative AI is.
And that's where I see it underutilized.
Does the system pick up on... I mean, I played with it a little bit.
I know in the text editor you've got One side that's kind of the editor where you can, your lyrics show up and you can write them or edit the suggestions or what have you.
And then on the other side of the window are the suggestions and some things that you can tweak.
But I noticed in... the side where the actual lyrics are, that there are syllable counts.
And so I'm wondering, does the AI... pick up on syllable counts and try to, you know, match or complement the cadence and the flow of the song.
Is that considered? Oh yeah, definitely, definitely.
It's kind of amazing actually how much it can pick up in style.
It's pretty incredible. It picks up things that of course we were planning on and we implicitly put in, like the things that you mentioned.
But it also picks up things that we didn't necessarily count on.
So at the other end of the spectrum, I wanted to mention that we've had professionals come in and put in kind of a very chilled, kind of laid back R&B style.
And it just... It was giving him things that I've never seen the system give before.
We can control the number of syllables that it's going to give us so we can explicitly ask it. to limit the number of syllables.
And there is also this really amazing slider which controls how wacky the suggestions are. which is really just a creativity slider.
So we can ask it to be very creative. So I'm actually going to pull up the wackiness slider right now.
Or we can pull it down, which is going to keep the suggestions more grounded in what it's generating based on, but still very creative.
So is the wackiness like a randomness? So not exactly randomness, like really creativity.
You'll see from using it that... Imagine this as a sort of treasure hunt.
You have this massive map. The map, let's say, is the size of the whole planet. or even more like, or the stars in the sky, that this massive, massive search space.
And what it's doing is sort of instead of like randomly giving you different stars, randomly searching through the space.
It's intelligently, there is this, it's sort of like intelligent randomness it's searching in a way that's not predictable.
So it's not deterministic, but it's also very, very smart.
So it's giving you suggestions that go in many, many different directions, but the directions are all interesting and meaningful.
And how creative it is sort of controls how far away it can go from the prompts that you're giving it.
How long has the engine been in development?
So this particular engine is about three and a half years old.
We have another system that we are actually going to bring to life in a new way, which comes up with vocal melodies.
Okay. And so I'm wondering, and maybe just focusing on the Lyric Studio engine for now, have you noticed anything about... the way it's progressed or changed its suggestions over time?
Has the There are characteristics to the system itself that you can kind of pick out or come to mind when you see it generate something.
You think like, oh, yeah, it's been... it's been edging towards the dark side or it's been exploring space themes or it's been rhyming in a certain way or any characteristics sort of spiritually arising from the machine over time?
Well, it's really been building your own creative AI system is a little bit like raising a kid in a small way.
How much about it surprises you? I mean, one of the most amazing developments that we've done fairly recently, we've been improving on it, is the wrap generator.
We realized that a lot of our users are interested in that genre, and so we invested more time to improve that.
And it's really amazing for me to be able to put together raps because it's something that I really can't do without Lyric Studio.
What's the difference between writing a rap and writing another type of song?
Yeah, it's using different words. It has a different rhythm to it.
It uses very different topics. It's almost like it's almost like just training it on a completely different language, which we've all done.
It's a different planet. That one in particular, I mean, Looking at pop versus rap, it's worlds apart.
But then there are some other genres that are sort of siblings as well.
Right. Interesting. Our guest today is Dr. Maya Ackerman.
Dr. Ackerman is CEO of Wave AI, a company that is...
As you've heard, building creative machine learning systems that don't seek to replace humans or human creativity, but instead work as a sort of partner, almost a a ghostwriter, if you will, working with humans on lyric writing and other forms of writing as well.
Maybe we can shift gears for a minute, Maya, and talk about your own background, because in addition to interest in music, obviously, and writing, you have an academic background and in AI research. and that whole area.
And then maybe you can tell us a bit about that and how you got to the story of how Wave AI was formed.
Yeah, so that was quite a journey. When I was getting a PhD in computer science at the University of Waterloo originally, looking at doing research in theoretical foundations of cluster analysis, which is a foundational aspect of machine learning,
Just for fun, as a way to relax, I started taking voice lessons I was really bad at first, but within about nine months, I started getting gigs singing opera.
So that was amazing. Wow. Yeah, that's a steep trajectory there.
Yeah, that was, I mean, I fell in love with it.
I've practiced every day for at least an hour.
So in that sense, perhaps it's less surprising.
Right. But it just became such an important, precious part of my life.
And I remember walking around one day and thinking, oh, I really... really want to write my own songs.
So I thought, okay, I'm going to figure out how to write songs so I can sing my own stuff.
And I really thought it's something I could figure out in a few months.
I thought I could write lyrics, I couldn't, but I thought I could, so I wasn't worried about that.
But then when I tried to write vocal melodies, I got completely stuck.
I would keep coming up with the same melodies and they sounded so boring and they were out of some kind of folk song that I didn't listen to.
That was very, very frustrating. I gave it about three years.
I learned how to produce music. There were a lot of great tools for that.
And those tools only got better over the years.
But I couldn't write my own songs. That was really frustrating as a singer.
Then one day it hit me, I was attending the International Conference on Computational Creativity, And it was like lightning.
It hit me that it's possible to use my machine learning skills to build a system that would help me come up with ideas for vocal melodies.
But then I could put together songs and that's exactly what we did.
And that's how that's how this very long, interesting journey started.
And so the vocal melody engine you mentioned is something that you had worked on. and is sort of not online right now, but is being rebirthed, if you will, in a new version?
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's going to come on.
You know, it's a... people involved in startups who are listening to this, all of them would know, and I'm sure as you know, There is an iterative process when you bring in a product that's genuinely revolutionary, that's genuinely different from everything out there.
One of the main things that we learned with Lyric Studio is how to serve creative AI to people.
I want to bring that insight back into some of our other original models and offer this experience that's very human-centric as we introduce musical AI to the world.
What kind of feedback have you gotten? Not so much on whether the lyrics that Lyric Studio helps write are good or bad, so to speak, But just on that process itself, and I'm thinking of we've had...
We've had guests on the show working in graphic design and visual effects and music.
And other areas that are sort of not traditionally thought of as creative, but where this notion of a human in the loop, as we call it, a human-AI sort of partnership happens.
You know, there's definitely this feeling that resonates with me anyway, that that's kind of the state of the art right now, so to speak, is that we're, you know, not some of the most successful projects or products aren't looking to, replace what humans are doing with full automation, but rather kind of be a supercharged tool that the human can use.
But I know that in creative endeavors, sometimes there's a protectiveness that creative people have around our creations, right?
And so I'm just wondering, have you been met with excitement or resistance or some of both as you've worked with songwriters and have them tried Lyric Studio?
Yeah, I mean, I love this question. Thank you so much for bringing up this really, really important topic.
I'd like to start responding by expanding on some of the language around this.
We have autonomous systems and then we have human in the loop.
This is neither. This is extremely human-centric.
This is computer in the loop, if you will. starts and ends with human creativity.
And I'm going to address the core of your question, which is how are people reacting?
I think when people haven't tried it, when they just perhaps hear about it, briefly read a couple of sentences, there is this fear that comes up. oh no, now computers are coming after this, really?
Right, right. And you know, having been in this conversation for a long time now, I have come to realize that they're right, that there is a reason to be concerned, that Maybe some people are interested in building systems that would replace musicians and other creative people.
And it's very sad. And I think it's time that we take these concerns very, very seriously.
Because it is very powerful technology. And if we use it with the aim of replacing people, sure, I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future, but... but perhaps eventually something like that can happen.
And I don't think that's something that we as a society want.
I don't think that we want creativity replaced.
I don't think that that's valuable. What's interesting is that from a commercial standpoint, we haven't really seen much of that really break in.
There's been a lot of attempts in different ways, but I'm not aware of kind of solid markers of success of this sort of approach to musical AI.
However, when musicians try what we built, when they actually use it and understand that it's all about them, and it doesn't take away anything from them, they fall in love with it because it really helps them be creative.
It really helps them break out of writer's blocks.
It really helps them write find art within themselves that they couldn't express before.
Yeah, it is invaluable in whatever type of creativity.
And I do a lot of Not lyric writing, but a lot of writing for different purposes.
And when you hit that wall, having something... that you can throw an idea at or a word or what have you, and it'll bounce something back.
It can be so valuable. And sometimes it can come from taking a walk around the park, so to speak.
But a lot of times you need, you know, something that's capable of throwing words back at you.
In that sense, to me, anyway, it makes sense that an intelligent computer system could perhaps play that role just as a... a human being could.
What I would love to do, actually, is maybe put in a little bit of lines and just read out what it's generating in real time.
So let's generate by topics. Again, you can also generate by genre.
We have lots of different topics here, or you can type anything you want.
Let's go for... Moonlight and Believe. So like poetic edge poetry.
So I'm looking at the suggestions right now, and it's the first time I'm ever seeing them.
It never gives the same suggestion twice.
I mean, really, if you lose a suggestion that you didn't save, it's like a needle in a haystack.
You're never going to find it again because it generates them from scratch.
Let's see what it generated for Moonlight and Believe.
Ah, let me see. I can feel the heat of the sun.
I find that one really inspiring. So that's just one thing it gave.
It also gave, she's a star of the show. I'm stuck in the middle of a dream.
Oh my God, that one really speaks to me.
I'm stuck in the middle of a dream. It's taking something so positive. but kind of giving it this kind of complex existence, right?
Is it a dream? Is it a nightmare? Is it both?
Exactly. And you're kind of stuck in the middle of it.
So I'm actually so inspired by this line, I want to generate based on it.
So I click new suggestions. Now selecting this line, I'm stuck in the middle of a dream.
And I want to see what it gives me. So one line that I'm getting here is full of desire for my life.
And another one it's saying, and it's driving me crazy.
So we can kind of take it in a really positive direction or we can take it to kind of more of this dark place.
So on that note of not wanting creativity replaced, but everybody needing a tool sometimes to help you get over writer's block, Where do you see this headed, whether broadly or kind of specifically to the music industry?
Take it as broad or as narrow as you want.
How do you see technologies like yours and other AI, deep learning-based, creative technologies changing? shaping the music industry as we look ahead over the next, however long, few years, five years.
Yeah, it's a great question. Where do I see things going?
You know, I get asked this question all the time.
And I think what's really important to realize is that right now, as in right right now, we are shaping the future.
So it's not a passive question for me. It's not, what do I think other people are going to do?
It's, what am I doing? What are we doing as music technologists to shape the future of musical AI?
And within Wave AI, we have proven with our user base, with how much they come back, with how they use the system that this human-centric approach with what I call humble creative machines, that this works, that this is commercially viable and this is how musical AI needs to be.
It needs to be completely human-centric.
Something that improves the musician's something that improves their creative skill, even when they're not using it.
People who use Lyric Studio, instead of becoming handicapped because of it and sort of unable to write anymore without it, they're actually better writers even when they're away from Lyric Studio.
Why is that, do you think? It's quite simple, really.
It's because, let's say, well, I didn't realize that about myself, but I actually used to write in a fairly narrow style.
And by writing with Lyric Studio, The type of ideas that come to mind right now, the kind of creative spaces that I'm willing to explore are just wider.
Right, right. You see that even with professionals who, of course, were a lot more prepared to begin with.
They were a lot better lyrics writers when they started than when I was.
But still, we are all limited. Human strength is not in exploring creative spaces.
This is not where humans are strong. We are strong at finding coherence and finding meaning. at expressing our emotions, at connecting things to things that will resonate with people, but not at exploring new creative possibilities, not at finding new lyrical ideas in particular.
And so, I mean, people have come in to use Lyric Studio who have never written before.
And within a few sessions, they can write with a pen and paper.
But of course they come back to Lyric Studio because it has a lot to offer to people who write well too.
That's how we need to stop thinking about AI as something that's coming in to take over. but as something that really fosters human creativity in a deep way, something that enhances the human creative process.
I can only speak for myself, but I couldn't agree more.
And I like that phrase computer in the loop.
I like, uh, Shifting the locus of power, the creative power back to the human and the computer is the tool.
Absolutely. So while we were doing this interview, I very quickly finished the quick little talk we were making.
So I'm just going to quickly read it to you.
The first two lines will be familiar. I'm stuck in the middle of a dream and it's driving me crazy.
It's bringing me to my knees. Don't think that you could save me.
There's a song in there. Yeah, a dark song or maybe just a dark beginning that moves into the light.
Yeah, well, this was fun. Excellent. Dr. Ackerman, this has been fascinating.
Thank you so much. The new software, when it comes out, the new old software, so to speak.
But in the meantime, for folks who want to find out more, there's a free demo.
No credit card required in the demo. I sound like I'm shilling.
But I always love it when you can try something out without having to put a card in there.
That was the case with Lyric Studio. Where can people go online if they want to find out more or even try their hand at writing with the help of an AI friend?
Yeah, please come to lyricstudio.net. That's for poetry or lyrics, focusing on lyrics.
And you can also go to blog.lyricstudio.net. and read about it and watch some videos of wonderful musicians using Lyric Studio in their process.
Fantastic. Well, thank you again for taking the time and all the best to you and your team in your efforts to push human creativity to new places.
Thank you so much. It was a real pleasure.
Thank you. Thank you.
