My name's George, and I edit The Imperfects.
We acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
The rich storytelling history of the world's oldest living culture is what we proudly pay homage to when we share stories on The Imperfects.
We're here with one of my newest friends, Matt O'Kine.
So this is day three, and so far it's pretty good.
Matt hosted Triple J's national breakfast radio show at Alex Dyson, his voice becoming recognisable to hundreds of thousands around the country each morning.
Sounds horrible.
Yeah, and there's only so many backstage parties you can have.
Do you ever think about how much you wish you would love your mum to be seeing you as a parent?
Yeah, that comes into my mind all the time.
My mum died when I was 12.
And I remember looking across at her when she was driving and she looked so sick.
I live with this worry all the time that that could happen and it does happen.
Someone just meets you now and says, what do you do?
How do you answer that question?
I don't say comedian, that's for sure.
I was cheated on.
Cuck.
The problem with cheating is if you start being suspicious, then it's like you're being paranoid.
It just ruins your ability to trust anyone.
We're all imperfect.
And on this podcast I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
I'm Hugh van Kylenburg from The Resilience Project.
And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.
And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
And this is The Imperfects.
Well, today is a special day because today is Matt Herkind Day.
Not officially, just in our podcast world it is.
Yeah, it's not something that globally is celebrated.
It should be.
It should be.
He's terrific.
He'd be wrapped.
Imagine that.
Imagine a Hugh Van Kylenburg day.
Well, what would I do on that day?
You're doing nothing.
Everyone's just like celebrating you.
It's kind of like the Queen's birthday or the King's birthday.
It's a public holiday for Matt O'Kine day.
I don't know why.
You brought it up.
Don't look at me.
Well, he deserves one.
He's a very special man.
He's your friend as well.
He's my friend.
Well, we quite recently have got to know each other because some people might have seen a Toyota ad that we were in together like an AFL.
Excellent Toyota ad.
Thanks.
Legendary moments ad.
It's a huge deal that you are doing that.
I've just been chuffed for months.
Chuffed for months.
I can't, yeah, it's such a, like they're legendary ads.
Like when Dave Lawson and Steve Curry used to do them, like just incredible ads.
So yeah, both Matt and I felt super chuffed.
How were your, what did your parents say when you told them?
Greatest news since I was in the Jewish news.
Would this make the Jewish news?
If it hasn't already, I need to make a call.
They would be wrapped.
And what about when your parents first saw the ad?
Well, my dad first saw the ad, I think, at the MCG on the big screen.
I was away, but, yeah, that was pretty cool, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean being on the big screen at the MCG and on the back of the footy record huge moments in my life.
That is massive.
Yeah, so anyway, so Matt and I, yeah, we've become mates.
So I hadn't met Matt before this interview.
I knew of him, obviously, the Triple J host of the morning drive show.
The breakfast show.
Breakfast show, thank you.
Morning draft, yeah.
It's a pre-lunch show.
Also a stand-up comedian and a writer, has his own TV shows.
But gosh, what a lovely man.
The chat we had was really great.
There were two main things that came up really.
The first one being a heartbreaking loss of his mum when he was very young, 12 years old I think it was.
Yeah.
And the situation around.
That was just.
I found myself thinking about that for the next couple of days after we chatted to him.
Then also, the second half of the interview was something we haven't, I don't think we've really talked about on this podcast ever before, which was the experience of being cheated on in a long-term relationship.
And he's very, very generous in going to the details of that.
Yeah, and if you've seen his TV show The Other Guy, that show is sort of based on his real experience of being cheated on yeah.
Yeah, but it was something that – like it happens a lot.
We hear about it a lot, but to have someone be open about it was really interesting.
And when we come back from this interview, as we always do, I want to talk a little bit about that and the – um, the ways that we can hopefully move forward independently after something as heartbreaking as that awesome.
That's great um, great.
I mean, if there is, if people do resonate with matt's story, not to shed any, not to put any light on it, because it's a really tough thing being cheated on.
But we could consider the infidelity house.
I don't know if it necessarily needs to be a regular thing, but throw it out there.
I think we're going to have to patent the name at least.
Definitely before this airs.
Yes, absolutely.
Make some cards maybe.
Sell them.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Anyway.
Yes.
Great.
But this is Matt O'Kine.
Lovely, lovely man, Matt O'Kine.
Well, we're here with one of my newest friends, I would say.
Yeah, I'd say that too, actually.
You don't often make friends as you get older, do you?
No.
And we have become, we've become work, we're kind of work friends, but very, very part-time work.
Very part-time.
There's been two days.
Yes.
Across six months.
Yeah.
So this is day three, and so far it's pretty good.
Yeah, we hugged.
It's really good.
I mean, as a work relationship, it feels like we're crossing the line.
But it felt right.
But, you know, Hugh and Josh, this is our first day of any sort of work relationship.
Hugh, it's a little icier at the beginning.
You're on the phone to someone so there wasn't any hug or anything.
I panicked.
I panicked.
I didn't know what to do.
Yeah, you're not going to – I don't sit above the bank in that regard.
I can't give you any money.
You know what I mean?
Well, they're not going to give you any money either, to be honest.
I reckon you'd happily loan him money at bank rates.
Yes.
That would be a pretty good business.
Anyway, I apologise.
Not at all.
Not at all.
It's been great.
I was nervous.
It made it easier for me, you know.
I didn't know what I was going to do.
Well, you said you do your thing and I was like, thank you.
He gets that this is... I've been on the phone to the bank a lot recently.
I bought a house earlier this year and it was extremely stressful.
Yeah.
And I know that you can't complain about... buying property being stressful in this sort of climate.
Give it a go.
It's kind of like complaining that your lobster dinner gave you food poisoning.
Like people don't care as much.
But I will say you've got to pick the right lobster.
Like sometimes, if you pick the wrong lobster, especially when you're having it five nights away, the risk is high.
So, yeah, so Matt O'Kine.
Everyone will know who you are, no doubt.
But, Hugh, I'm sure you've got some official things to say.
I have an official thing in front of me which I want to read.
But before we do that I just – can we start with?
– your dad owning an African nightclub in Brisbane, and one night the West Indies cricket team came back to your house for a party.
Are we talking Marlon Samuels, Chris Garland, are we talking Ambrose Walsh?
We're talking the golden era of...
I don't know if Viv Richards was actually there.
It was 88, 89 to her.
Oh, my Lord.
And so, yeah, there was your Courtney Walsh's and your... Kirtley.
Kirtley Ambrose and stuff, yeah.
For a long time, Dad was still getting yearly Christmas cards from a guy called Gus Logie.
Oh, my God.
He used to be in the team as well.
Yeah.
So there was... And then you won a Logie, didn't you?
Do you know what...
So then what happened is on that particular night, the whole team signed a bat for us.
And I was four or five years old at the time.
The only memory I really have and a lot of these Australian cricket players were there as well, but the only memory I have is a guy called Jimmy Adams, who's a left arm orthodox batter bowler, holding me up and almost hitting my head on the light.
And I remember thinking, wow, this guy's just...
This is huge.
He's a hero.
And anyways, that day they signed a big bat for me, all of their signatures and the entire team.
And I was four or five, so I didn't really know what it was or care what it was.
And it just sort of went into the cupboard for a couple of days years, until I was old enough to start playing cricket.
And I suddenly became really enamored by the by again the West Indies that had come again in 92 93, that season.
And so I was watching a lot of cricket and suddenly I wanted to start playing cricket.
And so, you know, my next neighbors had a backyard then that was good for cricket.
So I'd go over there and well, we didn't have a bat.
The only bat.
The only bat we had was this bat that was in the cupboard that had a bunch of scribbles on it, man.
Like, I don't, you know, there's some names scribbled on it.
Why is it in this glass case?
And so anyway, I just kept using that bat, day in, day out, until all of the signatures had worn off, except for, at the very bottom, the signature of the team's physiotherapist.
Why is he signing the bat?
So, yeah, so a few regrets in that aspect.
I can't help but imagine the day where the bat was being signed and someone passed the physiotherapist the bat and he looked around and he's like okay.
It would have felt so special.
So, yeah, I do feel bad that that history, you know, is gone, but the memories.
So that 88, 89 tour.
Yeah, golden era.
So West Indies Tour in Australia, 88, 89.
Our dad was a dentist and he was a dentist for cricket at the MCG.
So if someone got hit in the mouth, he would go and...
Yeah, he would go and sort them out.
You know my dad's a dentist.
Really?
Yes.
And a nightclub owner.
Yeah well, he was running a nightclub at the time, so he was doing that sort of nights and weekends and then he was in the school dental van.
I mean, if this is the day we find out that you guys are brothers, I'll be shocked for lots of reasons.
So, yeah, he used to do the dental van.
But in 1982, when the Commonwealth Games were in Brisbane, he was also kind of the unofficial dentist for the Ghanaian team.
So, you know, the boxes and runners that came out.
Yeah, so we're all on the same page here.
Yeah, we really are. yeah unbelievable so back then the only batsman for the west indies there was gordon greenidge um and desmond haynes yes and desmond haynes needed a dental checkup so he went and saw dad and i would have been eight or nine he would have been about three yeah but i made dad said desmond haynes is coming today so i made i made as a nine-year-old i made desmond hands a card one of those cards when you open it up the mouth opens And it said on the card, you're not the only one who likes cricket, just so you know.
And it was just like me holding a bat.
So the mouth had no context?
It was me and I was talking.
Oh, it's your face.
And with a speaking bubble saying, you're not the only one.
So you're not the only one.
Yeah.
It sounds quite aggressive.
I know.
I was going to say, did he allege that he was the only one?
Was there any?
Yeah.
Anyway, he gave dad a sweatband, a West Indies sweatband, which remained probably still in our house to this very day.
Yeah, I used to wear it to parties heaps in like 2005, 2006.
I'd pop on Desmond Haynes and tell everyone, this is Desmond Haynes.
They're like who?
Yeah yeah, i know, unless it's lara, it's hard to kind of get the importance across.
But i often look back at that and think did he wear a sweatband to the dentist like, or did he carry it around just in case someone wanted something like a bag of sweatbands?
It's like gifts.
Yeah, There you go.
Oh, wow.
We should do a podcast on West Indies cricket.
And dentistry.
And dentistry.
It's the crossover no one knew we needed.
Yeah, it's the Venn diagram no one saw coming.
Anyway, let's do the bio.
Yes, yes, sorry.
So Matt grew up in Brisbane and was often greeted by the question, where are you from?
Followed by, but no, where are you really from?
With his sister seven years older, Matt spent quality time growing up with his mum at the Toowoomba Flower Festival and with his dad listened to Triple J on the drive to school.
So Bella did the research here and I'm so fascinated by this next line.
It says, making it to nationals in brackets accidentally for Triple Jump.
How did you accidentally end up- I mean, it wasn't really an accident.
I did the jump.
No, it was unexpected, I would say.
I'd always been into athletics, but I remember in year 12 I was starting to kind of wag a lot and not really care much for school.
And on the day of the athletics, I remember just kind of, I wasn't even at school.
I think we'd just gone down the road to get some hot chips and frozen Cokes and all that sort of stuff.
Then I remembered, oh man, the triple jumps on.
And I really liked triple jumps.
So I quickly rushed back to school and I ended up doing it and winning it.
And then something happened.
I don't know what happened, but in this brief period of my life I just became really good at triple jump.
And suddenly I was at regionals and then I ended up going to states and then I ended up making the Queensland team and going to nationals.
And then I just stopped being good, and that was it.
It was just like this weird little six-month period of being real good at triple jump.
But then I moved on to AFL.
Yeah, because it says here that your success in the triple jump attracted AFL scouts, which again.
How does that happen?
It was more look okay.
So what actually happened is I was playing in my school's AFL team and I ended up scoring six goals in our sort of league comp grand final thing and there was some selectory people there.
So they came up to us, you know, a little tap on the shoulder.
Hey, why don't you join this program called the nab afl star search and they were getting people all around 17 18 to come and be a part of this training program.
So yeah cool, you would go to like the gabber and do all these testing and you'd go to sort of regional comps and uh, you know, it's like an intense training program.
Um, that's the dream.
I know, i know, and i was hoping for that in oz kick.
Yeah right.
Well, so suddenly it was like oh, this is actually, this is a slight possibility.
You know, as part of the program, you're meeting players from the Lions who had been through that program as well, you know.
So you're thinking okay, this could actually be a thing.
And at the same time, I auditioned for drama school and I got into QUT, which was, which is sort of the Queensland version of NIDA.
It's a full blown kind of five days a week conservatorium style course.
Like a drama school.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so anyway, on the first interview with the head of the drama course, there she said you know what do you do outside of acting?
And I said, well, you know, I'm currently doing this AFL program.
And she said, oh, AFL.
Oh, no, no, no.
No, no, you won't be able to do that and do acting at the same time.
Was she hoping you'd play league instead?
I said, why not?
And she said because you'll hurt your face.
And i said oh, i haven't really thought about that.
And she said yes, you can't be coming here after a weekend of football with cuts and scratches on your face.
You might get some scarring on your face.
You cannot hurt your face.
It is your most important instrument, and so she's like.
You either have to choose to do the drama or the afl.
So You're Australia's Billy Elliot.
So I went back to the industrial estate and told my dad at the factory.
And so I went to the next game that we were playing as part of this sort of regional carnival for the AFL thing.
I told the coach at halftime, I said, look, I'm not going to play.
Yeah, I told him halftime.
I'm not going to play AFL anymore.
And he said, why not?
And I said, I've just started drama school and I just, I don't really want to hurt my face.
He goes, ah, don't want to hurt your face, eh?
Okay.
And he goes, boys, boys.
This is during halftime.
We're in the sheds.
Boys, Matt here has decided he's not going to play with us anymore.
He doesn't want to hurt his face.
Thanks for being a part of the team, Matt.
Good luck at drama school.
Let's hope we see you on Neighbours one day.
And in 2012, I was on Neighbours, so fuck you.
It was one episode and that was all I needed, okay?
Played photographer Nathan White.
I was in three scenes and look at me now, coach.
Wow.
I hope he was still watching Neighbours at that point.
So, yeah, that was the end of the AFL dream.
It's such a thing, isn't it?
I mean, I was never at the level you're talking about, but even at just like school level.
It was this thing of like you're either on the sports team or you're on the drama team.
Yeah, right.
And you've got to choose now or you've got to be tribal.
And it sucks.
It sucks because I wish that I'd known that I was into performance earlier.
It wasn't accessible.
It just wasn't a thing.
I think I just thought that sports was... you know, cooler or something.
I'd sort of seen it more, I'd followed it more, and it just didn't occur to me that arts was a career as much.
So, yeah, it was a big... The reason why I did it is basically because my mum died when I was 12.
And so...
I hit this point in my life where I realized that I just shouldn't make anyone else.
I shouldn't be doing anything to make other people happy.
I just got to make choices for me.
And so part of that was deciding that I was going to do drama which had never occurred to me before that.
But I thought, I really want to do this thing.
And instead I was enrolled in all these classes like Japanese and physics, and I was terrible at them, but I was trying to get a good OP, to look smart and be as good as my sister and to make my dad happy.
Yeah, like an OP, like end of year score.
And so after that, when this sort of realisation happened after my mum died, I was like oh, I'm just going to, I'm just going to do what I want.
And so that's when I decided enrolling in drama.
So just I'm going, I'm jumping into the intro here because I want people to know greater context around you.
Sorry, yes.
I keep jumping in, I'm very sorry.
I want you to, I want you to, it's great.
So you went to the comedy scenes.
This is something else I've done with a bang at just 18 years of age.
So you're a finalist in raw comedy.
In 2012, you shared Melbourne International Comedy Festival Best Newcomer Award.
And in 2013, it was announced as the best newcomer at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.
Nominated.
Okay.
Nominated.
Still good.
Still good.
I don't want to say that I won.
That's for sure.
That's a big deal.
You could have got over that.
From 2014 to 2016, Matt hosted Triple J's national breakfast radio show with Alex Dyson, his voice becoming recognizable to hundreds of thousands around the country each morning.
In 2017, Matt Crowe created and starred in The Other Guy, a semi-biographical TV show which received actor nominations.
Or did it win it?
Nominations.
Matt Rowe, Dane Black and Chicken and Chips in 2019, which was shortlisted the 2020 ABIA New Writer of the Year.
In 2021, Matt re-released this in a teen edition.
In amongst all of this, Matt has a full-blown music career as well as a cooking show.
And then the last line here, which is amazing is, and heaps of other stuff.
That's a lot of stuff.
Yeah, I don't know if there is heaps of other stuff.
Well, comedy, acting, sport, music.
Dad?
Yeah, which is probably the most rewarding out of all of them.
Not to sort of sound cheesy, but that's the job I'm loving the most at the moment.
Absolutely love it.
So how old are you all?
My daughter's six years old, Sophia, and yeah, it completely changed my life.
In what way?
Because I think it changes everyone in a different way.
Yeah.
You know, it changed me...
It's, it's amazing.
It was such it was.
I felt such a huge sense of relief when my daughter was born, because I had someone to care for.
That wasn't me, you know, and my whole life I'd just been so self-absorbed.
And so what am I going to do next?
How do I do this?
What am I going to do?
How am I going to make my career better?
All that sort of stuff.
And, and just in an instant I had just like, met my new best friend and it was all about them.
And it was so nice to suddenly go, okay, I've got a, I've got a purpose now.
Yeah.
Um, cause I hadn't had that before and I think I'd been chasing it for a long time.
I think I and I, and I think that part of that sort of you know the, the want to be on stage and to be recognized on a, on a global scale or your national scale or whatever.
A lot of that was chasing some kind of validation, I guess.
And so to suddenly realise, oh, this is the most important person to me.
It's not...
It's not thousands of people.
It's one person is actually the most important person to me now.
And so that was yeah, it was.
It was a really great, great sort of change in my life and something that I'm just eternally grateful for having the experience of.
How would you describe her?
She's really funny and she's smart and she's playful and she has really cool curly hair and I just love her.
We've hit a point, now that she's six, where we do stuff, where you know if we're kicking a ball to each other or something.
I can't believe that you're just thinking so independently.
You're just your own person and you're doing all this stuff with me.
And it really is like, you've got a best friend.
It's like, it's amazing.
It's like, yeah, it's great.
But there's a, there's a deep concern at times as well.
When, because my mum died when I was 12.
I'm constantly fighting the worry that something might be happening to me, or that something might happen to my partner, or that something might happen to her.
And I think that anyone who's lost a parent at a young age you really suddenly realize that it could happen.
It's not just something that happens to other people on TV or something that happens in books or anything.
It happens and it doesn't happen where you can plan it or see it, it just happens.
So when I was 12 you know I was I just finished primary school and I'd won the ducks award at my primary school.
And I was straight A student and I was playing all these sports and all that sort of stuff.
And, and life was awesome.
It was awesome.
And then one day my mom got a headache.
And it was just a headache.
Mums get headaches.
They just always seem to have headaches or their back hurts or whatever.
They're mums and that's it, right?
That's what you think when you're 12, another headache.
And then she didn't go to work for a couple of days.
And she was just sort of bit bedridden.
And I was just, I was just starting to go to high school.
So I was sort of just starting to do my own thing.
I didn't need to get dropped to schooling where I was catching a bus.
So I was going to and from school every day and she was just still in bed.
And I remember thinking like she's just in, she's just in bed, you know, like she just keeps being in bed, and no no, I wasn't annoyed with her, but it was just like it was strange.
Yeah.
And then.
You know, I remember there were moments that I look back on it, that I feel really upset about because, you know, I just didn't understand what was going on in, like what was actually happening.
And you just, you're so self-absorbed when you're 12.
You just sort of, you just...
You still sort of think your parents have to do everything for you and that's it.
And I remember thinking, like, why isn't mum cleaning this up?
And, you know...
I really wanted this video game controller.
And we drove to the shopping center so she could buy me this video game controller, because it was going to be my 13th birthday soon.
And I remember looking across at her when she was driving and she looked so sick.
And she could barely kind of lift her head, but she just wanted to go because she'd promised me this controller.
And I just got my controller and I just played the games and I wasn't thinking anything.
And so then one day I came home from school and my dad, I used to go to my dad's house first after school, and then he would drop me and my mum's because they were divorced.
And then one day I came home and I went up to the apartment and I came into her room and the shower was on and she was like collapsed in the shower.
She was like lying on the floor.
And I was like, is everything okay?
And she said, no, I think I've got to go to the hospital.
Is your dad still downstairs?
So I quickly ran out downstairs because usually I'd tell him, hey, mom, mom's fine.
You know, like I'm inside the house.
You can drive away now.
But I ran out and I said, hey, stop.
I think something's up with mom.
And so we we carried her down with um, like you know, had to carry her in like, I think we had to carry on a sheet or something, or she'd just gotten dressed and it was quite difficult to get her down and into the backseat of the car.
But, you know, we, we put her in hospital and.
She never left.
Like that night we took her to the hospital and then she just never left the hospital.
So three weeks later she died on Good Friday and that was two days before my 13th birthday.
And, you know, so when I say it happens quickly –
It just happens.
Like you know, I remember sitting at the bus stop after she died and I was looking at the unit that we lived in and I'd never walked back into it after that night.
It was just like it was crazy that I just one day just just had to leave, you know, take mum to the hospital.
And then I never go back into my home again.
Like, it's just crazy.
So I live with this worry all the time that that could happen and it does happen.
And, you know, I recently had this... I was on the plane.
I was on the plane recently.
I remember when my daughter turned four.
I was on the plane recently.
And I just...
Oh, my God.
I just started bawling my eyes out on the plane, just sitting there by myself, just sobbing.
I must have looked like a complete lunatic, just sitting there just sobbing on this plane because my daughter had turned four.
And you know one of my best friends, Alex Dyson, who I host Triple J with.
I host Matt and Alex all day breakfast with.
He was four when his mom died.
And we've always had that connection in common.
It was one of the first things that we sort of connected over when we first met.
And I realised that, like you know Sophia, when she was four.
It was weird because you know, Alex has sort of mentioned a couple of times that he's only got a few memories of his mom.
And at that stage, Sophia was all I wanted to remember.
Like I'd had four years of just the best memories and I still have these great daily memories.
And I and I and I find it, so I found it so devastating that that that could happen, that that you know that it could happen like that.
And then you know, a child would only be left with one or two memories of someone that's so important to them.
And even now, you know, I like think about not being able to remember my mom's voice really.
Like, I think I know her, but I don't have any videos of her.
I don't really, like, I don't, I've got a couple of, I got a handful of photos, you know?
And so, yeah, I bawled my eyes out that day on the plane.
And I went to the podcast that we record afterwards and I told him that story.
And then, you know, he said, he said, I actually got a tape of my mum's before she passed away.
It's this one thing that I've got left of her.
And we played it and it was some of the most... gut-wrenching kind of audio that you'll ever hear.
And it was so beautiful and so painful and everything.
And so to know that it happens, I just get so worried all the time.
Thank you.
Like I've heard people talk before about losing a parent and it's heartbreaking to listen to.
I haven't heard it told in that.
I don't know the different memories you have in the detail, and the heartache is obviously so.
It's all of the little things that lead up to it that make it so.
The things you remember.
Painful.
Yeah.
And the guilt that you carry.
I think you know there was there's a couple of moments where, like when we first went into the hospital the day after she had been admitted, my sister and I were there and we were, we were just asking mum questions about you know well, how long have you known about this?
What's, you know, have you been feeling weird and stuff?
And you know she said oh yeah well, I found a lump um when we were on holiday in Tasmania just a few months ago, right.
And so me and mum had gone on this holiday to Tasmania and I really loved that holiday and I'd had such a good time.
And I said, how did you, like, why didn't you do something about it?
And she said, well, we were having so much fun.
Don't you remember we were having so much fun and that guilt like it sticks with me, so much because we were having fun.
We really were.
And you know, I know that, I know that she, I know that it's not my fault, but You feel responsible at times when those things it's so complicated.
And so, you know, that carries with you for a long time.
Just that moment carries with me for a long time.
Do you ever think about how much you wish you would love your mum to be seeing you as a parent?
Does that come into your mind?
Yeah, that comes into my mind all the time.
It comes into my mind all the time.
But, at the same time, what I will say is that I hate that it happened, but it happened at a time where I loved my mum so much.
She was perfect in my eyes.
And I didn't get to know her as a teenager where I started identifying her flaws as an adult.
And, of course, I would have loved that she was alive today, but I'm also grateful that she that she died perfect instead of someone who had flaws.
So it is a – yeah, it's a little bit of a complicated one.
Do you – I mean like I feel like – well, firstly, I feel like I –
I feel really close to you now in a weird way.
Workmates don't usually do that.
No.
Day three.
But that is so generous that you would tell us, feel comfortable enough to tell us that.
Well, I only...
I only talk about it because it's happening.
It's happening to someone right now and it's happening to a 12 year old kid.
And you know, when I started at Triple J, my dad and I would drive to school every morning and Like my life had completely flipped not in any huge crazy way, but I mean it was just a huge part of it was gone.
And so suddenly I'm living with my dad, and it's just me and my dad and you know I'm obviously – affected by what's going on, but in a sort of young teenage boy trying to pretend like nothing's happened.
You know, I don't want to be hurt by it.
I'm trying so hard not to be hurt by it.
So I remember going to my mum's funeral. and not wanting to cry.
And so I, I really put on a show, you know, I really put on a show.
I was, I was smiling and talking to people and joking around and stuff like that.
And I remember getting an uh, a letter from one of my mom's friends a few weeks maybe later, saying you know Um Hey, I saw you at the funeral, you know, and and you seem to be in for lack of better words putting on a bit of a show.
You know, you know, this is basically what paraphrasing here, but it said you know, just know that you don't have to, that this is a really big thing that's happened to you.
And I remember getting so angry at that, at that letter.
I remember thinking, how dare you tell me how to react to this?
Um, and she was right, a hundred percent right.
But I was just trying to process everything the best way I could.
So a lot of it came down to me just squashing all the emotions and you know, and being tough, I guess, in that classic 90s boy mentality you know.
Do you remember the first time you did cry?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, I remember.
Because...
I was, um, I went to drama school.
This is five years later.
So I didn't cry about it until, um, until my first day at drama school.
And part of the drama course was, you know, it's like tapping into deep emotions and talking, talking about you know, expressing vulnerabilities, et cetera.
Wouldn't know anything about that, but yeah.
Okay.
So anyways, it's really like it's stuff like sitting down opposite someone you know and saying, you know, being here makes me feel grateful, because I've seen you know so much about this podcast before, and to have – um, you know me on makes me feel like that.
I, you know, feel seen by guys that i respect and appreciate and i like that.
And you know, sitting here opposite you ryan, makes me feel um again, i'm amazed, because i used to watch you on tv when i was, when i was sort of wanting to, wanting to be in your position, and so to now feel like where we are peers is like uh, it's a huge moment for me, but also to know that you've been so nice and welcoming and a genuine sort of person is is something that I really appreciate.
So it's that kind of just.
It's just sort of talking about just honesty and just trying to be as open as you can.
So that was the process.
Can I just jump in there?
Because that's so surprising to hear that, assuming that's real.
I haven't been to drama school.
I'm a very good actor.
Because I've had so many moments like that of thinking about you, because you got the thing that I always wanted, which is your own TV show.
You got the kind of autobiographical thing.
And I just think like, God, I was very, very envious of the things you've done.
So that's so wild to hear that.
Well look, so the point was that, you know, we we were very trying to be open about everything, and i'd never been open in my life.
And so when, the very first day, the acting teacher said um, we're gonna do what's called a coffin monologue, talking to someone that's that's passed away or you imagined have passed away.
And so um, i was standing in front of the class and He said okay, now you know, have you got someone that you want to talk to?
I said, yes.
And he said, okay, well, you know, start.
Did you make sure that this was being marked before you got into it?
Is this being marked?
I'm not going to pull out the good stuff yet, okay?
Yeah.
And so then I – yeah, so I stood there.
I didn't know what to say.
And then he just said why don't you just start by saying you know, being here with you now makes me feel.
And that was the first sentence.
And then I just burst into tears.
And I'd never cried about it before.
I'd never fully acknowledged.
So a lot of that first year of drama school was me really – acknowledging all of the hurt that I was carrying for a long time.
And so that was a huge turning point for me.
And it definitely changed me as a, as a person significantly.
And so I'm very grateful for drama school.
A lot of people sort of make fun of drama school for various reasons, but for me on a personal level, it really, it really changed who I was.
I feel like that's the people I know who have gone to drama school or even heard about who have gone to drama school.
It sounds like that's the best version of what you're hoping to get from it.
Some sort of like getting in touch with something that wasn't previously attainable or reachable.
Yeah, so when it's kind of, I mean, I also know some people who hated all those exercises.
They didn't want to explore that.
And I think you've got to kind of submit to it.
Otherwise, it's not going to work for you.
But it definitely, I felt like it worked for me.
Yeah.
And so, you know, driving to school, I would listen to Triple J every morning.
That was sort of one of the things that binded us.
I guess every morning we'd listen to Adam and Will.
You were like, oh, a whole station about Triple Jump?
Cool.
Yeah.
I know this.
But listening to that and going through that, like you know, and having that have happened in my life, and listening to Triple J, and that being like one of the things that I remember of that whole period, I never forgot that.
So when I was on Triple J, I always thought about the kid who was sitting next to his dad, after his mum had just died, driving to school.
I knew that there'd be people out there doing it in that position as well.
So that was always like a big motivator for me, and a part of the reason why i even decided to take the job is because it was so meaningful to me when i was growing up.
So would you and your dad laugh, would you kind of it was just a thing, it was just like a, it was like a Third family member or something you know like.
It was always on every morning.
It was a consistency.
Yeah.
When we were sort of thanking you for being so honest before, you said that you do it because there's other kids going through it right now.
Mm-hmm.
Was there something you wish someone said to you or did for you back then?
No, but I tell you what.
In one of the earlier sort of, While she was still in hospital, I had to sit down with a psychologist or a counsellor in the hospital.
And it was looking like she was going to die and I felt like I knew that.
And I understand again why this person danced around the question of will she die?
But there was a.
Well, you know, we're not sure at this stage, anything is possible, et cetera, et cetera, trying to kind of sugarcoat it almost.
And what I really wanted is someone to just say, yep.
You know, but I know they can't, they probably, I'm sure there's protocol that they can't.
But again I remember feeling really, really angry that no one would just say look she's, she's going to die.
Yeah.
And cause then you feel like, oh, there's hope.
And then, when it doesn't happen, you feel silly.
You know you feel silly for for, for dreaming or the possibility.
And yeah, Yeah.
You can't blame anyone for that.
That's yeah.
There's protocol around all this sort of stuff, but it definitely at that time I wanted someone to be real with me and to not um dance around it.
And also when it happens, people start being weird around you, you know cause they don't know how to act.
They don't know.
They feel they, you know, their eyes look away.
Cause I don't even know whether they look at you or not.
They like, they, they, you can feel the pity. coming off them, like leaking out of them.
And you just hate it so much because like all you want is to be treated normally.
So I guess that would be the only thing.
Like don't step around them or anything like that.
This is a thing that they know has happened.
And reflecting on those last months with your mum, has your –
The way you described her, not acknowledging it herself or keeping that from you.
Has your attitude towards that changed since you've become a parent?
I have.
I'm fully aware now that it's that people's relationship with their personal health is a lot more complicated.
You know, and I'm also aware that you know, women get lumps in their breasts for all sorts of reasons that aren't cancer.
And, for all I know, she could have had many of these things, you know, over the years and she just thought it was another one.
Like I, I, I'm aware of that.
What I am conscious of is I'm instinctually scared of going to the doctor, because I'm always scared that it's going to be the worst, because I've seen it be the worst.
So everything that happens to me, I think, oh, my God, this is it.
I'm going to die or this is going to be the cancer or this is going to be something deadly.
And so I'm always terrified to go to the doctor.
But now that I've had my daughter, I keep thinking if I don't go and I let myself, something happened to me like how stupid will I feel?
How annoyed will I be with myself if I didn't get on top of it?
So it's constantly that push or pull going, no, don't do it.
Don't go.
You know what if it's something bad.
And then going no, you have to, because if you don't then you could die.
Like, so it's constantly rattling around in my head.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had a DM, so yesterday we posted a video that Dr M, our resident psychologist, did on midlife and issues we have with midlife.
And someone sent me a message.
It was amazing having this chat today, but just said I'd love you guys to do an episode on the irrational fear of death, because I can't get away from it.
I'm overanalyzing everything.
I'm so worried.
And she didn't give me her background.
And I remember thinking, yeah, I don't think that'd be an overly common thing.
But hearing you speak now, I think maybe anyone has lost someone at a young age.
Well, it's only because I have Sophia now.
I have someone to let down.
Not let down.
But you know that will lose me, because back then you know before that, before being a dad, I was kind of more of the approach that like I wouldn't mind dying at all.
Like I would be.
You know, it's the sort of thing where the plane takes off and you think oh, could it crash.
And then you go, well, that wouldn't be a problem.
That would actually be quite interesting to be in the first Australian country plane crash.
You know what I mean?
Like that was my thinking.
It'd be like, wow, that'd be, wow.
Wow.
What a statistic, you know?
The only problem is you couldn't write a book about it.
So like, I just wouldn't care.
I'd be like, oh yeah that.
But now the plane takes off and I think, oh my God, what if, what if, what if I died?
What if I died?
Because I was flying, you know, to do a podcast.
You know, that's what I think.
And it's like, what if I died because I was going to do some corporate or something, you know?
And it's like, what?
You know, why wasn't I at home?
Why did I do this?
And that's what will be flying through my head.
Like, why wasn't I with her?
But it's getting to the point where it's like, that's crazy.
You know what I mean?
Like it can start – I'm fully aware that it can be overwhelming or like –
It can be a, yeah, like an actual problem, an identifiable problem.
I think it's totally normal for a parent.
Like I've just booked a little weekend away for me and my wife in a couple of months.
And then I was lying in bed last night thinking, should I change the flights?
We're on different flights.
Yeah, right.
What, just in case that something happens?
If one of them goes down, at least our kids still have one parent.
And I was like, I started ruminating on it and I couldn't get to sleep.
And I never lost a parent young.
So I imagine if you'd have, that's just supercharged, that fear, because you know it could happen.
Well, thank you for giving me another thing to think about.
Because we're about to go to Bali soon and we're all on the same bloody flight, mate.
What am I?
Oh, my God.
Before you sort of talked about it, you just mentioned it briefly the guilt that you were feeling, that you sort of carried with you when you think back about the time before your mum died.
And I'm just sort of curious, is that like a feeling that you carried around with you a lot, even as an adult?
And if you did have that, any sort of guilt, how do you, I don't know, like process that or work through it?
It's not something that I had figured out until much later, because when I suppressed it all, it was just like that was a thing that happened and I'm not going to get upset about it.
That's life and we're going to move on.
And it was only when I started crying about it and going what is it about all of these things that are really actually hurting me?
It wasn't that she died.
That wasn't the thing that was hurting me.
It was all of the things around it.
And it was the guilt that I was carrying, the feeling that I may have been responsible for it.
That was what was hurting me.
So that took a long, long time.
I did not think about it at all until I was, you know yeah, late teens, early 20s, and unpacking every single moment and memory, you know.
Hey, Hugh and Ryan.
Yeah, Josh.
I am so excited about our brand new live show Together Again.
That's going to be around the country in so many cities which we'll tell you about in a second.
It's all new.
It's kind of like it'd be like if you've watched the first season of Game of Thrones and you're like oh, that was good.
I like that.
And then the second season comes out and you go, I don't need to see the second season.
I've seen the first.
I mean, that doesn't make much sense.
Not really.
Hang on, which bit?
What we're trying to say is it's a whole new season of our live show.
Brand new episodes, brand new bits.
You've never seen it before.
You would never even dream of missing.
If you're into Game of Thrones, you'd never dream of missing season two.
So please don't dream of missing out.
Season two.
And if you're desperate like I am, I cannot wait to see Hugh flying on a dragon across the stage, just like Game of Thrones.
That's what we're saying.
It's season two of Game of Thrones, live on stage.
Without orgies or anything like that.
Oh.
Let's not give too much away, Josh.
Well, if you want to find out what's happening on stage, you can get your tickets at livenationcomau.
Very early on, you said something that I'd love you to explain the link of how this works where you said that, after losing your mum at 12, and then you were at the footy drama junction, you said I lost my mum at 12 and it made me, after a few years, decide I'm not going to do things to please other people.
How do you, I didn't quite understand the link of how that works in your mind.
It was that realization that anything could happen to me at any moment.
And so I wasn't going to waste any time anymore doing things that I wasn't really committed to.
And deep down I knew that I wanted to be a storyteller.
I wanted to perform and stuff.
So that was it.
I think that if that hadn't happened to me though, I think I would have lived a very safe life.
I think I would have not taken risks, because it definitely taught me that What's the worst that can happen.
Like, you know, you try and you fail, but you're not going to die.
And at least if you try and you do die, at least you died trying.
You know, that's like, that was what I started realizing.
So, yeah, so I just decided to go for it.
And I've kind of carried on that mentality for most of my career career.
But it's ramped up more and more as I've gotten older.
So when I do all these things, you know, part of that is really just the challenge to myself to try something new or something that I've always wanted to do.
Um, and because I'm not scared of failing, so I just sort of just keep doing them and just giving it a go.
And yeah.
You know, sometimes it works and sometimes it sucks and I don't really care.
Like I like, I like trying.
I talked to a friend once.
Um, I ran into a friend who I went to uni with about oh you know, a few few years ago.
And she had been studying writing at university.
And I remember, you know, we were talking about what we've been doing since uni.
And I said, oh, so how about you?
How are you going?
How are you going?
You know, you're writing anything.
And she said, oh, no, I'm not really writing anything at the moment.
And I said, oh, okay, why not?
And she said, oh, I'm just –
Look, if I'm going to be honest, it's just a bit scared of failure.
That's all.
And in my head I thought, oh, that's funny because you are failing now.
Like you're failing right now by not trying.
Like the only way that you can fail in any kind of endeavor, especially when it comes to creativity and stuff, is by literally not trying doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing.
Even if you try, at least you're trying.
So you're not even failing if you try and it's not successful.
That's what people think.
They think that failing is something that's not successful.
That's not at all what failing is.
Failing is not doing it.
That's what failing is if you try your pass, you get a C minus at the very least.
You tried and you got there.
So I always think about that.
I'm like, well, I'll just try.
And if it yeah, it's not the most commercial successful thing.
Or people don't like it, or it gets a one-star review.
Like now, well, I tried.
I guess that's like the difference between like failing publicly and privately in many ways.
So it's like to not do it.
It's such a great insight.
Like it's so true.
Like I never thought about that, that if you don't do it, then you are kind of failing.
Yeah, immediately.
But you do get to avoid the public humiliation that you fear.
Yeah, which is weird because I've never.
I mean, I do know you always think that people are going to think you're silly for trying, or something like that.
But then...
I never think that about other people.
So I always go like, why would anyone think it about me?
Like it's almost, like it's so self-indulgent to think that people are going to be really criticized, or like thinking you're silly for trying.
Like, and if they are, then that's just, that's crazy.
They're like, that's, Well, it's probably something they need to figure out.
Yeah, that's on them.
It's not on me.
I'm just trying something.
So once I got over that little hurdle, I was like, oh, I'm just going to try everything.
I'm just going to try whatever I feel like doing.
And if it works, it works.
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
So that was a big step.
So you know, you'll see in your bio that you just read I think you were talking about I started comedy when I was 18 and stuff like that.
And then it jumps to 2012.
When I won Best Newcomer.
And there's like eight years where I wasn't doing anything.
And that's because I wasn't trying.
I was just expecting things to happen to me.
Oh, really?
So you won Raw Comedy.
I didn't win Raw Comedy.
I made the national final.
Then I did a couple of other things.
I won the competition, got on Rove in 2008.
That was a really big step.
And then... nothing for four years.
And that's because I just kept going to this clubs and I was just doing the same old material.
And I just kept thinking that someone was going to discover me or someone was going to be in the crowd.
They're going to tap me on the shoulder and go, you get.
You know, you're going to get your own TV show.
Well, I guess that happened to you in the footy world.
Yeah.
Yeah, so then suddenly I realised like, oh, I actually just have to do stuff.
It's just up to me.
I've just got to do it.
And so that's when I started writing my shows and writing the stand-up shows, and then suddenly they become books or they become TV shows and suddenly magically, my whole career starts blowing up when I actually just start trying.
Like it was, it's just, yeah.
It makes so much, it seems so simple when you say it like that.
But of course, I mean, I had a very similar realization of like wait, you know, for years waiting for someone to give me the opportunity that I want to, but then eventually you realize that it's like actually no one, everyone's just doing their own thing.
Yeah.
Like why are they going to do it for me?
Yeah.
And there was a really big wake up call.
So um, I was working at a call center and I remember, you know, my one of the people I was working with we'd gone to uni together and we wanted to.
We kept talking about writing this show, kept talking about writing this show.
We're going to write a show about actors at a call center.
And we kept talking about it and talking about it.
And one day at lunch, you know, I remember thinking like all these shows on TV, like all the producers who were big, it didn't just magically happen.
They had to just, they had to just make it, they had to just try it.
And I remember saying, okay, well, I think I'm just going to, try this thing.
Like, let's just try and make it then.
And that was sort of the start that ramped up that, that moment.
And we failed, that failed.
Um, uh, you know, it wasn't successful.
It didn't get picked up, but it taught me action.
And then suddenly everything started happening.
I think it's, yeah, it's taken me a long time to learn that lesson.
I'm not sure.
I know.
I don't think I've like imbued it as fully as you have.
But one of the things that I've learned to add to that, I think, is that the knowledge that the trying is the fun part too.
Yeah.
I didn't realize.
I always saw the trying as like oh, this is all proof, or all a journey, of you discovering the things you're not good at.
Whereas I'm learning to flip that and go, no, that's the fun bit.
Yeah.
And I think that that's why I keep doing different things.
It's because it's like oh, this is the because.
Actually, what you do is you fall into a cycle where things start becoming easy or they start becoming automated in a sense.
Like people ask me why I left Triple J, and it wasn't because I wasn't enjoying it or that it wasn't fun and good, but it became the same thing every single year.
And you start following the same.
You know, this year we're doing Unearthed High this time, and then Splendour in the Grass happening this time, and then Big Zaz and blah blah, blah.
And every single year and it starts becoming a process.
Sounds horrible.
Yeah.
And there's only so many backstage parties you can have.
But, yeah, so then I realised, okay, well, that's... done.
And so then I had to you know, then the possibility of making a TV show came up, and that was what I've always wanted to do as well.
But that also came up out of a circumstantial you know situation where the life events that had put me into that position had happened.
And I guess my way of processing them was to talk about it and to create from it.
Well, I mean, do you mind if we talk about that?
Because that was like seemingly a huge event in your life which probably turned your life upside down, which then became the other guy.
So what...
Tell us the story.
Well, yeah.
So basically the other guy is about a radio host who finds out his girlfriend of 10 years has been cheating on him with his best friend.
And we you know that all been living together in the same house, et cetera, sort of blows up this guy's life.
And that event very much did happen.
That's what the show, the original stage show was about.
It was about unpacking all of the steps that led up to that event.
And I guess the TV show is more of what happened, like a fictionalized, very fictionalized version of what happened afterwards.
But as far as the you know the the event is, goes it definitely.
That was something that happened in my life and it was very much a life changing event as well.
So you know I would put that.
You know, my mum dying was obviously a very impactful, informative part of my life and really shaped who I was.
And I guess that this event then changed who that person was as well.
So it was it.
People ask you things like, did you know?
Did you know what was going on?
We all lived in the same apartment in Sydney.
And so I didn't know.
I didn't know.
You start picking up on things.
You start picking up on weird things, weird behaviors that you can't really put your finger on.
You go, why did that happen?
Why did they just do that?
And the problem with cheating is you...
Unless you are told or you walk in on people doing it.
If you start being suspicious, you're the crazy one.
Yeah, yeah.
Because if you start asking questions like, hey, why did you just do that?
Then it's like you're being paranoid.
Yeah, or jealous.
Yeah, you're being jealous.
You're being paranoid.
And so you start getting played in this like real gaslighting way where you can't ask questions and all you can do is observe and try and figure out what the hell is going on.
And then you start figuring out, am I crazy?
Am I paranoid?
Am I jealous?
And the things keep happening and they keep happening over months, weeks and months.
And I don't know, possibly years, until eventually you know it all comes out and it's, And that is like when it happens with a bunch of people that you know it just ruins your ability to trust anyone.
Yeah.
So suddenly you start freaking out about who knew and who was hiding things from you.
And was it happening with other friends?
And is this, is everyone, did everyone know?
Am I such an idiot?
Am I?
And so, when it comes to like the cheating thing, it's like There's an element of trust and then there's an element of shame.
And the breaking of the trust is bad because you carry that suspicion of trust forward into all sorts of relationships.
So once your inability to trust people is broken, it's very difficult to say well, that was an isolated event and I need to be able to trust people.
You have to really train yourself to do it.
And you have to really keep saying, Hey, don't like you, you can trust people.
Like I find myself having the most, the wildest um thoughts sometimes that are completely unreasonable.
I remember trying to be in relationships after that happened and then your partner will literally go and get milk from the shops and you're thinking are they going to get milk or are they going to see someone else?
And you think that is impossible.
It's not even logically possible that that's happening, but you just start thinking.
I mean, I remember talking to a friend whose partner had taken their own life and so now they're in a new relationship.
But that thought of, yeah, when someone goes out to the shops, they might be going to do that.
It It never stops.
And so yeah, the trust thing.
You know, I'll be with my group of friends and suddenly I'll think oh, did they know?
It'll reawaken itself, that paranoia, that fear.
So how did you find out and did that have a significant impact on you, like the way you found out?
No, it was so... I remember we had... It was all... We were all partying a lot back in those days.
We were all very young and stuff.
And I came into our bedroom and she was kind of asleep on the bed with her phone on her stomach.
And a... what's it called?
Like a pop-up, like when a message notification thingy yeah, preview thingy came up and it was from him saying we'll have to figure out a way to tell him, you know.
And so I remember and this is after months, by the way of me going hey, something going on like.
And then it'd be like yeah, there's something going on with you two.
Like I was really expressly asking is And you know no no, you're being crazy, you're being paranoid blah blah, blah.
So they denied it to you as well.
Yeah, totally, totally.
And so then, when it happens, so when you see a message like that, the next morning when we woke up I said look, I saw that message on your phone and I don't know like, is this like we need to have a talk, obviously.
And then that's when it all sort of, I wouldn't say it all came out, but it trickled out.
That was the first drops.
And suddenly, you know, you're there going, okay, well, like, is that really what happened?
Well, or, you know, is there more than you're not telling me?
And then a little bit more comes out and then.
Okay.
Well, and so it was all this big long you know hours long conversation that suddenly you just realized that everything that you know is unraveling and it has all these big implications on your friends and your living situation and everything.
And then the weirdest thing happened is, you know, after a while you're like, okay, well.
I'm hungry.
And they're like, yeah, I'm hungry too.
And it's like, well, should we go get something to eat?
And you kind of like have a lunch break in the middle of this, like you know, you go to.
It's like well, I haven't been to that burger place that we, you know, and so it's like yeah okay, let's go to the burger place.
Then you go to the burger place and you're sitting there and.
You know, but like, you know, cause you don't like, it's not like the movies.
It's not like where you walk in and suddenly, oh, get out of there.
You know, you're throwing their clothes out the window.
Don't you ever come back?
You know, it's nothing like that.
It's just like, oh, wow.
Okay.
Well.
Life as we know it is not going to be the same from this point on.
And I guess we better figure out how to change it.
So you didn't get furious or angry?
No.
No, I didn't.
I get angry about it still.
I still do get angry.
I get flashes of frustration about it.
But that really more comes down to the just the lying to me.
You know that was.
That was from both of them.
That's what annoys me the most.
It's not.
Yeah.
It's just like when, when they make you feel so stupid or paranoid or everything.
That's what I get really frustrated.
I was like, why did, why did you do that to me?
Like, why didn't you just call it off?
Yeah.
That was a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
And I would have had to deal with it that way.
But yeah, to make me feel like I'm the crazy one and paranoid one.
Yeah.
Like that's the, why would you want to hurt me like that?
How did you discover trust again with your current partner?
Yeah.
Um It.
I guess there was the realization that there's again.
It's like the if someone fails, if someone like thinks you're silly for failing, then it's actually that's a them problem.
So the realization for me was, well, I can't control anything that other people are doing.
And if that is something that they want to do, that's something that they want to do.
And I can't really stop them.
And all I can do is just hope that they don't.
And I have to just trust them.
Um, and you know, my partner is amazing in acknowledging that, that this is an event that has happened to me before.
And so understands that that might be something I'm worried about, but also um Um, I just I don't know that there's there's so much trust there, because I don't, I just don't.
Yeah, there's been no indication whatsoever at all in any way, shape or form, that she would ever be someone that would do that.
Um, and so, yeah, it's just a constant kind of, yeah, openness, I guess, about it.
I had a.
Maybe it's a similar thing you're talking about, but I remember when I was really early in the relationship with my now wife we've been together for a very long time and I was driving to her house and I started to get jealous about a guy that she worked with or something like that and um, john lennon's jealous guy came on and it's so cheesy and cliche, but i was listening to it and i was like, oh yeah, this is a choice, if i want to become jealous or not.
Yeah, and it was similar exactly the way.
I hadn't thought of it this way, but the thought of like well, i could choose to be jealous, but that will pervade this relationship and probably end it, And I will never know if it was all because of me or anything like that.
Or I can just go, I'm just going to have to trust.
And if it fails because I made the wrong call here, then at least it failed for that reason, as opposed to me bringing my shit to it.
Exactly.
It failed because of them, not you, I guess.
That's what in my head.
I'm like well, all I can do is trust, and I've given it.
I've done my part of it.
Yeah.
And if they break that trust, well, that's their fault.
But, you know, yeah, at least.
But if you are paranoid and you're like, and then you start acting weird because you don't know, you know, following down the street to see if they actually are going to get milk and stuff, then of course they're going to be like that's, you know, stop.
Yeah, like this is it.
It's over.
And then you've ruined it because of you.
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, I definitely tried to take that first way.
What years would this have been?
Where were you- Oh, this was the first year of Triple J is when I found out.
What year was that?
2014.
Right.
Did you talk about it on Triple J when it happened?
No.
It was a really difficult one because-
I was still trying to figure it all out, you know, and it goes on for months.
Like.
So we were still trying to see whether it was going to be a worthwhile relationship to repair, whether there was reasons that it could, that it could still work.
Um, and because, you know, again, it's not like get out.
It's there's, there's so many questions.
It's like, okay, well, why was this happening?
Why did you do it?
What, what, what were you trying to get, get out of it?
Is there something that was lacking in our relationship, that you were trying to see, all those sorts of things?
Your names are all on the list.
It's like, You want to process it all.
And so it went across months.
But I mean, at the same time you're on this brand new breakfast show and you're sort of um, you know, up at five o'clock every morning, six o'clock.
Hey, how's it going everyone?
And when you've been crying all night, the night before, you know, like you haven't slept a bit because you've been having this intensely, you know painful breakup, sick experience, and then you're out there hey, here's the new one from gang of years, you know, and you're like, oh it was.
It was hard, you know, but alex dyson was there and he was a really great, you know, support person for me throughout it, because in between songs you're sort of going, oh gosh, this happened and i don't know what to do about this.
And and just to have someone who would listen to all of the issues um was i'm thankful for for alex very much.
What is his friendship?
And I guess like a healthy or a great male friendship.
Look like to you.
What does it mean to you?
I mean, Alex and I are so open with each other, and I think that that's what has always been apparent in our relationship.
In our career and in our friendship.
The very first time we did a test together at Triple J Studios.
I came in.
I was driving from Canberra to Sydney to do this test.
And I'd never met Alex before in my life.
And I walked in and...
He said, you know, how was the drive?
And I said, oh well, I'm a little bit paranoid about, you know, driving on the highway now because I recently got pulled over for driving in the right-hand lane.
And this cop had pulled me over for, you know, driving in the right-hand lane without overtaking.
And I got like a $330 fine and three points.
I was so angry because I just didn't think that that was a real law, but it is.
And so I just told him that and he sort of came back and was talking to you know, me and Alex.
We were riffing on this and riffing for about five minutes on it.
And then it was just a really fun conversation and we and we finished that and Alex said all right well uh let's, let's record a test.
And the content manager, Ollie Woods at the time, was in the room and he goes.
You weren't recording that.
What the hell were you thinking?
That was amazing.
And so we realized very, very quickly that we just had... Can't talk off air.
Yeah, exactly.
Anytime he says something, he'll be like, oh, so this and that.
It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Is this...
The show?
Is it a show thing or do we talk about it?
No, we hang out off air as well.
And his friendship to me has been one of the most important.
You know, not just through his skill, you know what he actually brings to the radio and to the podcast and his smarts and everything but his support.
I guess you know, and he, we really back each other and we back each other's ideas and there's a lot of trust in each other's work.
So for me, whenever you're in a duo and you're working with a team, you know, and you'll know this it's very much like.
You know, what I love about it is that no one cares who's kicking the goals, as long as they're going in the goal.
You know what I mean?
So it's just like, and that's, that's what we've always worked really well together with.
It's like if you want to be the funny one or you want to be a serious one or I want to be the funny one whatever, it doesn't matter.
Let's kick the goals together, let's win the match together and then that's it.
So that for me, has been a real no ego.
No none, absolutely.
And Alex Tyson just has zero ego whatsoever at all.
Um, So it's been really, really.
It's been a friendship that has meant so much to me, especially considering what was going on.
You know, two months into our show together, this new co-host that he's had to bring on after working so long with you know someone else and the audience is getting like you know who's this new guy and get off air and all this sort of stuff and and he's just like supporting me 100 and backing me.
And then you know, trusting in me and everything that that friendship, especially at the time, it meant the world to me.
That's right.
I forgot about that because it was with tom before yeah, tom and alex, and then yeah, and they'd grown up together like in warnable and stuff, and so i was just like parachuted in oh and people.
You know some people you, Some people liked it, some people hated it.
From what I've heard about the Triple J text line, it can be pretty brutal.
Oh, it's brutal.
But you know it's so funny because it's like.
I remember one of the first tweets I saw when we'd started, this guy saying how crap I was and how not funny it was and all this sort of stuff.
And then I remember when we said goodbye and we wrapped up after three years.
Get this tweet going.
Oh, you guys are going to be so missed.
It's going to be so sad to see you go.
I'm like, bro, I remember your tweet.
I'm like in my head, I'm like, I know you dude.
You think I've forgotten that tweet three years ago?
I kept it in my head, man.
So am I petty?
Maybe, but you know, uh, no.
So yeah, the friendship with Alex has just been incredible.
So who do you, like you've done so much.
If someone says to you, someone just meets you now and say, what do you do?
How do you answer that question?
Oh yeah.
I usually just say, it depends if it's at customs, I don't say comedian, that's for sure.
I was cheated on.
Yeah.
Cuck.
So, no.
I, yeah, I don't know.
Like yeah, I usually just tell, like if I were to sum up it everything that I do realistically, I would just say that I'm a storyteller.
I just tell stories.
And I just tell stories in different formats, that's all.
So sometimes I tell short stories for five minutes in radio segments.
Sometimes I take two years to tell stories for TV shows.
Sometimes I tell stories on stage.
Sometimes I tell stories through music.
I just sort of tell stories.
That's what I like.
And what do you feel professionally?
What do you feel most proud of?
At this stage...
I really do actually.
I really love that Toyota ad.
I'm really, really glad about it.
It's just, it's just.
It's so weird because people don't.
You know, like I don't know, it's easy to kind of say that advertising is a certain thing, but it was amazing.
It was such a good experience and I'm so proud of the product.
I'm actually really proud of what it is.
Yeah, advertising is not important, but when you're in an ad, it's special.
No, but I loved it.
And it came right at the point in my life where it's like that was the sort of thing that I wanted to do something really fun with a brand that I really like and that I've driven my you know, when I'm driving to school in that with my mom had died.
You know, it was in a, it was in a Toyota.
It was in my dad's blue Camry.
And that was the car I learned to drive in.
And so it's a formative, it is actually a formative brand for me.
So I was really, really excited to be a part of that.
We can clip that up for you if you want.
Please send it to them.
It's going to help negotiations.
But you know, I think for me personally, I still watch the other guy every now and then, because I usually am trying to figure out how I solved a writing problem.
You know, and I go, how do I do that in the other guy?
So I'll sit down and like watch a segment of it or a clip of it.
And I just...
I just really am proud of what it captured, of that time and of who we were, you know, a type of person living in the West of Sydney, doing the things that we were doing and having the problems that we had.
And I really felt like it really captured that voice of that kind of person really well.
So I'm super proud of that.
When you were writing, The Other Guy did it – I mean, I'm assuming like it's as common, for it probably helped you process what happened.
But I found like when I was doing a project, I was working on a show which was – it never got made, but it was sort of semi-autobiographical about a tough time in my life.
And I found it really –
Not only did it help me process it, but it actually also helped me have some empathy for my partner a lot more, because I was forced to think of myself as a character and think of the flaws of that character.
And so in therapy people always say try and sort of step away from yourself and look at yourself from a third perspective, a third person sort of perspective, and that you, you literally have to because you're a character in the show.
So you need to figure out like, well, what, what's this character done wrong?
What do I have to, a hundred percent.
That was a big learning curve when I was writing the show.
Cause it was the first time I'd done TV as well.
And I remember, you know, you do this scene where you'd go, what if my character does this?
And the script editor would be like, you just keep winning.
Your character keeps winning.
Is that life?
Yeah, he's a fucking legend.
Yeah, exactly.
That's not life, you know.
So it's like what would actually you know, yeah the partner say if you did sort of say oh, you know, you cheated on me.
What would they say?
Would they say, yeah, well, you weren't there?
You know, you were so obsessed with your career that you just, you didn't think about me.
You, you barely looked at me some nights cause you had your head in your laptop or or you know you, you were, you were drinking beers and playing video games and you, just you know.
It's like I was invisible.
Like, do they say that?
And suddenly you think, oh God okay, this is going to have to.
This is a bit of a wake up call to really sort of actually analyze.
Yeah.
What was going on?
Cause there is totally two sides to every story.
Yeah.
But it was also stressful, you know, because my partner well, my ex at the time was very concerned that there was going to be, that it was going to be about her.
And so, you know, and it wasn't, and I never wanted it to be, like the characters that aren't me on the show have nothing to do with the person who is the real me. you know, the real person, um, for any of those people that I really set out to make sure that I was, I tried my best to make sure I was telling my story and not anyone else's.
Cause that's the danger that you start, you know, falling into.
Um, so the event definitely happened and that that that is a truth.
But everything else about it?
You know that isn't about my characters, nothing to do with anyone.
But surely there were moments when you were writing.
It would have been so tempting to have some little revenge moments.
There really wasn't because I don't want to get sued.
Yeah.
So there was absolutely never the temptation to do anything.
And look, to be fair, there wasn't... I wouldn't... There was nothing, you know?
It was just young people... making poor choices, all of us at one time.
And so I have to kind of acknowledge that as well.
And yes, there were the things that I've mentioned today where I'm angry that that you know, that they sort of were gaslighting me, et cetera.
But like, we were also undeniably angry young idiots who are trying to figure it all out.
And I look back on that thing as well.
And I'm so grateful that it happened, because if it didn't, not only would I have the relationship and my daughter but, like I don't think, I would have grown up.
And I think that that was a big... turning point.
So it's sort of when my mom died, I had to grow up very quickly, but I grew up to a certain level and then never kind of evolved from that.
And that.
And then there was sort of like a 10 year period where I stayed in that kind of high school head.
And it took me until this moment happening to then suddenly look at everything and go oh, I need to grow up.
I need to get you know smarter about this, about life in general, and think about my priorities and how I treat people and all that sort of stuff.
And so then that was the next sort of stage in my life.
And then, I guess fatherhood then became the next kind of, you know, evolutional period of personal growth.
So there was definitely a period there where I did not grow, I guess.
But, um, but you know, I'm happy with where I'm at now.
You.
I don't want to be, I don't want to place another fear in your head, but um, how old was your mother when she passed away?
Yeah.
Well, she was 42 and I'm 40 now.
And that's why it's getting more and more apparent.
Like there's a, there's a certain, there's a certain fear or know.
It's like a weird milestone that you don't want to do, you don't want to unlive them.
At that age yeah um, and you know, my partner's 42 or 43, i think right now.
So, like even that, realizing that she's the same age as my mom was, it's like, oh my god, but what could happen?
What could happen Um, so yeah, it's definitely creeping up on me and even then it'll be a real moment when my you know, touch wood.
But when my daughter turns 12, you know, and and it's older than me, when I'd lost my mom and I'm, you know if I'm still around I'm like that'll be a big moment.
So there's all these little milestones that I'm very aware of.
Um, so yeah, just got to take it day at a time.
Absolutely.
This has just been so wonderful.
I didn't really have any expectations of what it was going to be, but it's just been so insightful.
I was hoping it'd bring some vulnerability, but that's all right.
We can do it again.
We'll have a break.
Got to get a burger after the breakup burgers.
I just feel very blessed to be in your presence.
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
It's important stuff.
Talk about it.
It is absolutely.
It will be life-changing to a group of people who need to hear everything you've just said.
Then, whether it's being relationship stuff or losing a parent, or losing a loved one, i think it's going to be um help a lot of people to feel less alone.
So, thank you and congratulations on all that you've done.
Oh thanks, you're wonderful.
Thanks, team.
What a feeling For those of you just listening to the episode and you just heard Matt O'Kine.
What a generous thing.
But at the end, of course, I'm joking.
I said, oh, what a feeling.
What you wouldn't have seen or heard is Matt and I both just jumped out of our chairs just a little bit.
Just a small little jump.
You can't even see it on YouTube.
No, you can't.
It's such a small jump, but we're so well trained that when either of us says oh, what a feeling, we have to jump.
Yeah.
Trained or like contractually?
Well, true.
Good question.
It started as contractually.
Even as we're saying it now, I'm doing little mini jumps.
Whenever I hear it, see it written even, I have to do a small jump just for the rest of the year.
But it's good.
I think it's good brand alignment.
Absolutely.
Well, let's zoom-zoom on to the rest of the episode.
Okay, here we go.
It's Mazda versus Toyota.
It's a car off.
It's a car off, yeah.
Anyway.
So matter of kinds obviously, so much to talk about, reflect upon.
But Hugh, I know you wanted to- Oh, they were just Josh.
You will probably be able to attest to this, but in previous relationships before when they've ended for me, I have tried desperately to hang on to them for a very, very long time and have never had like a- a clean exit.
I don't think from a um relationship.
It's always been um me trying to thinking no no, maybe we can make it work, and just sort of trying to get back and your breakup has a long tail.
Yes yeah yeah, yeah.
And so i just i was thinking about one particular breakup that i had where i was so desperate to make it work, even like Even at the time I knew it wasn't right.
And then even when I started to feel a bit sick with anxiety, like, what am I doing?
I know this is wrong, but I just couldn't help it.
So the reason I want to talk about this is I feel like Matt talked about the fact that when he was on Triple J, the affair had happened, had been cheated on, and then they spent the next few months trying to work out if they could make it work.
Which when I heard him say that, I was like, why?
You just got cheated on.
It seems so simple from an outsider perspective.
It's like, just leave.
How's that going to work?
As in, I knew it'd be hard to leave, but I didn't think there'd be a stage of like.
Well, let's try and make it work.
And I'm not saying that everyone's in their individual situation.
Some people can make that work and do a really good job of that and it actually works out really well.
Just for me hearing that, I was surprised when he said we're trying to see if we could make it work.
And it got me thinking about relationship breakdowns and how, so often in hindsight, look back and go.
Well, of course it was never going to work, but you do struggle to make it work.
And it is a really tough period where you find yourself wanting to go back to what is familiar.
And so I was just thinking back to this one particular relationship after a long time of trying to make it work when it was absolutely dead in the water.
There were three things that I sort of looked back and just wrote about this morning.
That really helped me.
That might help people who are clinging onto a relationship that they kind of know intellectually just isn't right for them.
And I remember doing this, this is a long, this is like over 15 years ago now, but-
I remember at one point um, it'd been months and months and months, maybe even a couple of years now.
I've tried to go back, but I ended up writing down the truth.
So I try and get, I gave this heading name the truth, but like writing down the actual facts.
Because I feel like in that situation you romanticize so much stuff and you embellish so much stuff in favor of hanging around and you ignore the truth of it.
So like when I write down in black and white what the relationship is really like.
I wrote that it made me feel small.
I wrote that it drained me.
I wrote that I felt like I was always on eggshells.
It made it harder.
When I went back and just read that over and over it was hard for me to brainwash myself or like romanticize it at all, if that makes sense.
So I just wrote down, this is how the relationship actually makes me feel.
When I would start thinking oh, we've got the same sense of humor, or we just have so much fun together, or back at that stage.
It was really good.
It went really well.
That's the stuff I'd think about when I had this list to like reality, check myself with and go no.
But here are the facts.
Makes you feel small, makes you feel anxious, always on eggshells.
You're exhausted all the time.
So that was really helpful for me.
So actually write down the truth as opposed to getting swept away by romantic embellishments.
Absolutely, yeah.
So that was the first one.
The second one I did was filling the void, and I don't mean just going and finding someone else.
So what I realized was what I missed actually wasn't her.
I kept telling myself, I really miss her, I really miss her.
That actually wasn't what it was.
And I actually worked out after a while what I was actually missing.
And it was things that you can, like it was things like routine.
Like I really miss the routine of being with someone.
But you can replace that with another routine which doesn't involve being with someone or being with that person.
Like you can bring routine into your life.
To fill the time?
Yeah, so do you mean routine in terms of like trusting that you're going to see the same person when you wake up every morning?
So the predictability of like wake up in the morning, chat over breakfast um, and then, when you get home from, chat about your day and but just have a different routine that you look forward to.
So um, back then i wasn't obsessive about my health, but it was certainly like I would go to this same cafe nearby, read the paper back when papers were more of a thing, have coffee, message a friend or call a friend, or just like.
Introduce a new routine, like a fresh routine, one that you would look forward to organize to meet up with people after work or call people on the way home from home.
So you're getting that same-
Yeah, which can be hard because, like starting a new routine and breaking an old, it's sort of like a habit.
I guess it is quite tricky to start doing something that you don't by default want to do.
Like there's been a few times where I have to like okay, every time I get in my car I'm going to call someone, I'm going to call a friend, but because it's not something that I've ever done, I just always forget.
So it takes quite a lot of, you've got to be really conscious of doing that.
The other thing that I remember writing down was that like I missed the validation.
When you're with someone, they're always validating you and you'll say something or feel something, and they're often backing you up or supporting you there.
And so have a think about who else could play that role in your life and often that's family.
Like you'll have – you'd be able to name a few people hopefully, that are like your sort of support crew.
Yeah.
Share your good news with family.
It might be that you share good news or how you're feeling with your partner.
When you're having those feelings rather than going.
I miss being able to tell them this stuff, so they make me feel better.
Call family or be around family.
Or bad news.
Yeah, or bad news.
But you're just validating however you feel.
Like whatever it is, replace that.
Find someone else.
It doesn't have to be another romantic partner, because that can be hard to arrange at the drop of a hat.
But knowing who else in your life validates you and just establishing that yeah, I miss a validation, but I can find validation somewhere else.
Yeah, I miss a routine, but I can find routine somewhere else.
And I guess also I mean, this is sort of what I guess is part of what you're saying under the umbrella of that is the fear of loneliness when you get out of a relationship.
Like I know, for me it's like I felt after a long-term relationship of mine like ended.
I felt lonely and I was like well, I want them back, so I don't feel lonely.
That's not what I was thinking in the moment.
I was like, I want them back.
I want them back.
But really, when I look back on it, it was like, I just feel lonely and I want my person.
I want a person in my life who understands me.
It's like effortless connection.
And to get that from other people can be really, really hard, because it's a different sort of connection that you have with your partner.
And that took me a long, long time to understand and to get over, because the loneliness you can experience is really, really hard.
Yeah yeah, so i i had.
I totally agree with that.
There's a, it's a.
The loneliness can be quite overwhelming, but if i think just on, like filling the void, actually looking at what i was really missing, potentially what i was missing was connection and the connection you can get from friends and family like it's like, it's life-changing, like friendships and the love you have for family.
Yeah um, i say, life changes like a life highlight, like i'm sure it's the thing you look back on on your deathbed and just be so proud of the relationship you have with your family and friends.
That is a time absolutely to really embrace that.
Because if you're thinking oh, I missed a connection from that person, you can find a connection with people that are very close to you.
And to even add to that, even people that you wouldn't expect sometimes.
Like I remember when I got out of my first long-term relationship.
When that ended, I thought I was being really inventive and innovative by thinking I'm going to say yes to everything.
And I'm going to like, cause I want to be out there.
I don't want to be at home feeling sorry for myself.
I want to be out there seeing people.
So I made this like pledge to myself that anytime anyone ever invites you to anything, you have to go.
I've since found out that lots of people do that.
It's a very common thing.
But at the time, I thought it was very unique.
But from doing that I ended up at these random house parties that I would never usually choose to go to.
But because I was saying yes to everything, I ended up filling the void in this way.
I would never have expected connection.
Yeah, all of a sudden we're connectioning.
Yeah, I think also it's we.
I think mainly, not mainly because of, but it's certainly like supercharged by movies and songs and that romantic relationships get prioritized as like the most important things.
But often it feels like friendships will predate them and sometimes outlast them.
And now you'll have lifelong friendships that I think will be with you for a longer period of time than many of these romantic relationships are.
So there's, I think, just an acknowledgement that those friendships can provide so much throughout the course of your life that romantic relationships can't.
So really prioritizing them at certain points in your life is such a valuable and useful thing that will set you up for the rest of your life.
And you'll probably look back on it at the end, as you said before Hugh, at the end of your life, so fondly that there've been people there who have been there from pretty much start to finish, or as like as far back as you can remember anyway.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and the third one um, I just wrote was like it's, I wrote down it's not about being strong, because everyone says you just be strong, be strong.
But the more I look back on it, it's actually not about being strong.
It's more, so breaking away isn't about willpower.
It's about awareness.
Um, So like just being aware the whole time of your feelings that come up and feeling lonely or missing return, or just be aware of what that is rather than being strong.
And when being aware, being truthful about what you're aware of.
I guess coming back to that first one as well.
So it's not about being strong.
It's more about awareness.
It's more about support and it's more about Like going.
Okay, I'm in for a bit of an uncomfortable time, like the next few months or six months or whatever.
It's going to be uncomfortable but you will come out of it.
And then I always had this vision in my head of like future, me being really proud of that, me like going –.
Like I'm doing this for future me, sort of like being aware that this is a tough time, that I'm doing for future me, which is the same person.
And so this is the thing you go through, that a lot of people go through.
And yeah, being aware of that, as opposed to being strong, because everyone says be strong and you don't.
You don't feel strong at all.
Like there's no, it's the last thing you feel.
Yeah.
And so having that mantra is much more powerful, I think.
So doing things that you know future you will be proud of.
Yeah, well, thank you for.
That's a great way of looking at it.
I mean, you can apply that to so many different parts of your life.
Think about what future you will thank you for.
Yeah, totally.
So anyway, they're just the three things that really worked for me after a long time in my life of not being good at that.
And I'm going back retrospectively and looking at those things.
I didn't sit down and go, right.
But they're the things that eventually helped me.
So, yeah.
Great.
That's awesome, Hugh.
Yeah, really good.
Sorry, I feel like I haven't said much.
That's okay.
No, no.
I felt like the presence was powerful.
Okay.
Yeah.
Good.
Well, your presence was very powerful for me at that time.
Yeah, yeah.
I was thinking go to the net.
Because we did go to the cricket nets once.
Really?
Which helped.
Accidentally, we went to watch a football game and then I was so flat and then we found a cricket ball for some reason, and we bowled to each other.
And talked.
And talked, yeah.
And Josh, you thought, oh, I've gone to the nets once.
Surely it'll be all right now.
Yeah, exactly.
What else?
You over it yet?
I'm not going to have to take you to the nets again, mate.
I have a sore shoulder.
Mate, that's one net session.
Tell me I don't have to take you for a second.
Great.
Well, thanks to Matt O'Kine.
What a lovely, lovely guy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if you are going through what Matt went through gosh, just acknowledging how hard that, having never been through that, I feel like it'd be so incredibly difficult.
Thanks, Matt.
Thanks, Matt.
Thank you.
Hugh, it's Ryan.
Hey, thanks for making my new friend Matt feel so at home today.
I thought it was really good how we focused on Matt's story rather than I don't know just keep talking about Toyota.
Even though their cars are, let's face it, some of the most reliable and fuel efficient in the world, which is, you know, just a fact.
I'm just saying it as a fact.
But this, you know, we didn't need to talk about that today.
Not today.
This episode is about Matt and and his story and his vulnerability, and i'm so glad we chose that path rather than us just banging on about toyota's high resale value and how straightforward and affordable their servicing is.
You know, for an hour and a half, that that that would have been the wrong choice, however true it is.
But uh no this, this was about matt and all the people like matt who've gone through similar things, i guess.
So yeah, and i'm really, really proud of that, of that episode.
I mean, just when you think about it, we are so lucky to do what we do.
It's just so hard to contain the, the feeling, i don't know, it's just oh, what a feeling.
There's just no other way to describe it.
Anyway, it's ryan shelton from from the podcast To call back press 22.
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Visit patreon.com slash theimperfects The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh van Kylenburg, Brian Shelton and Josh van Kylenburg.
Our executive producer is Bridget North East, assistant producer Bella North East.
This episode is edited by George Martin with music from No Mono.
The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11, 14.
