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Hello, hello. Malcolm Gladwell here.
I've teamed up with Kenya Barris, one of the most talented and hilarious filmmakers in Hollywood, for a brand new podcast, The Unusual Suspects, where we hang out with people we're obsessed with and have them tell us something we didn't know about success.
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Listen to The Unusual Suspects with Kenya Barris and Malcolm Gladwell on Audible now.
Go to audible .com slash unusual suspects.
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Hey, everyone. Welcome to all you lovers out there.
This is Justin Richmond.
And I'm Leah Rose. We're the host of Broken Record, where we interview your favorite musicians and bring to life the stories behind their music, behind some of your favorite recordings.
If you're listening to this in the Broken Record feed, welcome back.
But if you're hearing us as a listener of another Pushkin show, that's because today we're doing something special.
That's right. This is our Valentine's Day special.
And today, to celebrate the music we love, Justin and I are going to do what we love, which is argue about music.
We're also going to be talking to some of our friends here at Pushkin, people who have equally strong opinions about the songs they love.
I'll be talking to Malcolm Gladwell, who has a very Gladwellian take about why he believes country is the best genre for love songs.
And I can guarantee it's not for the reason you may think.
It's depressive music.
That's what it is. We'll also hear from Ben Nadiff -Hoffrey, the sometimes host of The Last Archive, about a love song he wrote that's so good, it helped him score his forever valentine.
I think that folk music does love songs the best.
But first, Justin, I'm going to ask you what I think is the central question of today's episode.
I think I know what you're going to say But Out of every genre and subgenre That exists today Which one do you think does love songs The best R &B I knew it Look, when you think about it It's really the shorthand in music And in audio for love Like if you were scoring a love scene in a movie For like Netflix For like the most amount of people possible to watch You would probably throw in an R &B song You know, maybe yeah you know our green let's stay together come on that's that's really those are the sounds of love right there you know it's very much like what song are you choosing for the first
dance at your wedding The first day.
Right. The first, the first slow dance, it's your junior high welcome dance.
You know what I'm saying?
Or your senior prom, like it's going to be R &B.
It's kind of the cliche genre that we go to.
And I don't, I think I should give a deeper reason here because I think R &B kind of gets short shrift in, in the music world.
Like, you know, rock and roll and hip hop have taken up all the air in the room for 60 years now.
Yes. Since, since the, since the British invasion.
a couple years were spent on EDM but yeah a couple years yeah right Skrillex was big there for a second yeah yeah yeah it's not a sexy topic for some reason I think because it's so ubiquitous because in some ways it's so ever -present and and we just find it very easy to ignore but when you think about the fact that R &B comes out of really like it comes out of gospel you know like gospel is about love and devotion to a higher being to God and at some point all these gospel musicians that go out they want to write popular songs or sing popular music instead of just singing in the church and they
take everything they've learned in gospel music about how to sort of create a stir and a fervor around god and they just sort of center romantic love so they just take god out and put in a man a woman a lover you know a classic example is sam cook who's originally with the gospel group the soul stirrers and he releases a song he's so wonderful which is It's a gospel track.
Then when Sam Cooke wants to cross over about a year later and wants to just make an R &B cut, he reworks that same song and instead of wonderful, he becomes lovable.
My girl, she's lovable.
So then how could you not say that R &B isn't like the preeminent genre for love songs?
It's like, it has to do with the ethereal and the theological down to the romantic and the platonic, like it's everything.
And then it just gets dirtier and dirtier as the years go on.
And then we land at the thong song.
Yeah, Sisko's thong song, although shout out to Sisko.
I love Sisko. And that's a great album.
I love Sisko too. you know r &b does do love very very well but there's other genres too i mean look at dolly parton on jolene she's begging and she's pleading and she's out of her mind please don't take my man but then who who takes a and we love dolly but then who takes a dolly song like i'll always love you and takes it to the next level whitney whitney and i I will always love you I will always love you Speaking of Whitney, someone who could sing anyone's song and make it sound phenomenal, this makes me think of the interview you did with Babyface for Broken Record back in 2023.
And he wrote some of Whitney's biggest hits.
I mean, he wrote some of my favorite Whitney songs.
forget about his this is some of my favorites um and you know a million other unforgettable songs that you know yeah they also happen to be hits boys the men's end of the road moriah carries we belong together breathe again by tony braxton yes that was such a great interview yeah man i mean i'm sitting there with babyface and i'm watching him play guitar in front of me it was just crazy you know and he's he's left -handed he plays upside down like hendrix i mean he's not as good as a guitar player's hendrix but i mean it was just incredible with be that personal up close with and seeing how he
wrote these songs. And he played for me a song he's never recorded with anyone.
It was the very first song he ever wrote about an early love of his, his first love actually, in high school.
Let's hear some of that.
Here I go falling in love again.
That was my first song.
And I wrote it for a girl because I was in love and stuff.
And so the guitar really was just an instrument for me to get these songs out of me.
I always like to say, even when I play and learn things on the piano I play, I'm not really a piano player.
I learn things to support my songwriting.
And that's what I did then.
I turned that into my first song.
So I was just learning chords to support all my little songs.
Wow. And for you, songwriting was about writing songs for the girls you were in love with, crushes on.
Yeah, crushes on. And it was it was purely kind of an escape, so to say.
Wow. It wasn't anything but that I didn't think they were going to go anywhere.
But that was the that was the drive.
And you would have been like 11, 12, 10, 11, 12.
Yeah. Can I play a deal song?
Sure. Sweet November.
Yeah. We'll tell us a story That will bring us back the love that we don't know Wow, man.
That's a great song.
I wrote that right out of high school.
Out of high school?
Yeah, it was because I was a man -child, so I was second year something, 78 or so, 78, 79.
Right in that time.
So this is a girl. It was like this one girl.
She was like the most while we were in high school, we were really good friends.
And there's no way I would have ever thought I would have been with her.
But when I got out of high school, we we started talking and then we actually started dating.
I remember Daryl was like, how Thomas is even happening?
How do you have her?
And then I remember we went to go see Brooke Shields' Endless Love.
We went and saw Endless Love together.
And then something happened, I think, right before we were going away in Manchild.
All of a sudden she stopped calling me, and I couldn't reach her.
And I don't know what happened, but we were just like broken up.
And then there was no cell phones.
There was no good. You couldn't reach on the phone.
No social media. It was just done.
And I was really messed up about it.
And that's when I wrote this, you know, because, you know, that was the time period.
It was in the fall.
And so I was thinking maybe when I come back, maybe this November we'll get back together and find it.
So that was actually a love song that was written way back then.
And would you have written the words or would you write the words first?
I sat with the piano and wrote it.
Exactly. Piano. Yeah.
Wow. So. Because it's kind of beautiful even just divorced from the music.
If you just look at the words, it's like, it's high level, you know?
Yeah. It was, uh, when autumn first arrived, you were my lady.
We were dating. It was the second rain of autumn.
We shared a feeling.
Yeah. Come on. That's.
It was like, we started dating and then all of a sudden we like, I remember it was raining and, uh, like, looks like something's going to happen here.
So that song was really personal.
Yeah. exhale was more from watching the movie watch the movie you don't necessarily have to write from personal experience you can you can but you you can watch others and no yes it's really about watching others and and how they how they feel and how they imagining having to go through that i'm always asked how are you able to write for women yeah and said if you just kind of think of and think of whatever they go through and think of how you'd feel, you know.
It's not that hard to figure out, damn, that's fucked up.
I feel, you know, think I'll write about that, you know.
And as a kid that was always falling in love and thinking I was in love.
Feeling like you were in love.
You know, that's what it was.
My very first song was about a girl named Rhonda Newbold, I always say her name, and that was in Here I Go Falling In Love Again.
And the second song that I wrote that I clearly remember was about the same girl, which was two years later from sixth grade to eighth grade because she broke my heart, was called The Bitter Taste of Life.
Oh. Those are feelings that I had, and everything was exaggerated.
I had written a song called So Shy.
So there would be pieces of things, of songs that I would write.
I wrote a song called Tanita.
I wrote a song called Shelly.
One of the best songs I ever wrote Was a song called Last Song Forever I wrote that when I was in my senior year Never recorded it I think I let a group record it As if they turned into a gospel Do you remember any of it?
Yeah Could you play a little of it?
I don't know what my voice is like right now When I think of Special thoughts I remember special feelings we share Then I think of special moments Those were special times You told me you cared You know when all it comes the leaves will float away I hope you know by now my love will always stay I know I will love you forever You should know My love can't get no better Last song forever I couldn't love you No better Um, how's it go?
Than I do right now And now It's forever That's a little piece of paper.
You can hear all of my conversation with Babyface in the Broken Record episode that we're going to link to in the show notes.
There's so much more to it, including how some of his biggest influences were singer -songwriters like James Taylor and the Beatles.
Coming up after the break, Pushkin producer Ben Adipafri tells Leah about writing his own love song.
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The Unshakables podcast is back for season two, and it's kicking off with an episode you absolutely won't want to miss.
Host of the show and CEO of Chase for Business, Ben Walter, welcomes a very special guest, chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Diamond.
One of the world's most respected financial thought leaders, Jamie will connect the dots between the current challenges and opportunities facing small business owners and the broader financial landscape.
And of course, it wouldn't be an episode of The Unshakeables if Jamie didn't share some of the uh -oh moments that he overcame to forge ahead in his own career.
You can find this must -hear episode and the rest of the upcoming season of The Unshakeables wherever you get your podcasts.
Learn more at Chase .com slash podcast.
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I think that folk music does love songs the best.
That star Pushkin producer and sometimes host of The Last Archive, Ben Nadef Haffrey.
Folk or country, either one would be my leading contender for the genre that is best at love songs.
And I think it's because on some level, I think a breakup song or a lost love song is superior to a straight up love song.
Me too. Because I think like you don't, if you're in love, you don't really need a song.
Like you feel this kind of symphonic happiness.
Like there's something specific that you're experiencing with another person.
Like if you are experiencing lost love or unrequited love, there's something about a particular breakup story or sad romance song that like creates a community with you when you maybe feel otherwise alone or bereft.
But I think that there's like wistful folk music, wistful country music kind of toes the line between these two things.
To be honest, I also think that sad songs might make the best love songs.
But the real reason I wanted to talk to Ben is because I learned at our holiday party that he also has a second life as a musician and as a songwriter with the band Rukin.
Yes, and this is part of my long con to get interviewed on Broken Record for my music.
Well, you're close.
Yeah, exactly. So this is our Valentine's Day special.
And I was tipped off by our producer, Izzy, about a love song that you wrote a couple years ago.
And it actually ended up having sort of like a big impact on your life.
So I wanted to ask you about this song, If I Didn't Know You By Now.
So set the stage for us.
How did this song come to be?
Well, I wrote this song about like a year after I first moved to Brooklyn.
So I was like just out of college and I had moved to Brooklyn and I was living with a bunch of friends in what was, you know, actually quite a nice apartment.
I had not made my corner of the apartment particularly nice.
I was not having the best time that year.
And I had, I think as an expression of vague despair, just like not really done anything to set it up.
I don't remember why this is, but I remember I had like a tarp in the corner of the room.
I had a tarp in the corner of the room, like a mattress and then a saw on the wall.
Oh my God. I thought it would be like fun to put on my wall, but it looked terrifying.
And that was like pretty much it.
And I remember distinctly walking into the apartment one time with a good friend of mine from high school.
and I had like change in my pocket and I like took the change out of my pocket and I threw it in the corner and she was like why did you just throw the your change in the corner I was like that is that is the corner of the apartment where I keep my change and it was like it was indeed like next to the tarp like a pile of change so there were no shades on the window this was like a crucial thing um I just was like not super taking care of myself like everything was totally fine but um my life was not in order yeah and then i started dating a friend of mine from college her name was julia and she
was living in nashville at the time and we sort of like pick back up talking to each other at a distance and then when she came to new york we would hang out and i noticed that like as julia and i had been talking more and started seeing each other in Nashville and also in New York that slowly I had begun to set up my room.
I got shades for the window.
I put like they didn't actually fit, but I got like handkerchiefs that extended them to the bottom.
I got rid of the tarp.
I did, in fact, leave the saw on the wall because that was by then a crucial part of the decor and my identity and remains.
So I don't remember what I did with the change corner.
There's a good chance the change corner sort of remained.
The growing up process is a slow one.
The growing up process is a slow one, but it began with fixing up that first room.
There was a moment I remember where she came and visited.
It was early spring and we had this really wonderful weekend together exploring the city and she'd grown up in New York and I was kind of new there and she was showing me around.
and we went to like a Lebanese church and I'm Lebanese and it was kind of like a they just wandered in because they were having like a food festival kind of thing like there were a lot of wonderful serendipitous things yeah and I remember it was after that visit I think on the day that she had left that I was hanging out in my room and I was playing guitar and I started writing this song like a lot of hack guitar players i use a lot of open tunings and around that time i'd been playing the rain song by led zeppelin which is a version of open c tuning and so i just was like keep my guitar in that and i
remember figuring out the sort of main guitar line and then messing around with the words over it.
You know, I'm not a professional songwriter.
this was a song that like definitely did not come easily to me but it felt sort of like inspired by that moment and that feeling it was kind of like a reflection of the fact that I was noticing that my life was changing and an expression of gratitude to her for bringing me to the place where I wanted to do that at what point did you realize I'm writing a love song for Julia yeah I think that that is just what it was I think it's just because it that was sort of where it came from so I don't think it was a realization ever it was just kind of that was the feeling it started from so yeah I was in a long
distance relationship both then with Julia because she was living in Nashville but then also with the lead singer of my band Adam who he was in like the UK getting a master's in medieval literature or something and we were always working on an album in the background usually as like an escape hatch from like one or another job that we didn't want to do so we were always like kind of trading versions of things we spent a lot of time basically on every song just like trying to get it right recording and re -recording that kind of thing and i would always share those things with julia and she like
a joke evolved where she sort of teasingly would be like is this song about me um a thing that i would always like flatly deny should come to shows and she would like we would always have these long introductions to our songs but often we wrote historical songs just like mark twain's brother died in a steamship accident and like there would be a long preamble to the the song about you know samuel clemens's brother who dies in this horrible way but there would notably be no no preamble or introduction to this song and so this was the thing i was often mocked about and it kind of reached ahead when we
were like crowdfunding an album that we were doing which is a fancy way of saying like asking our friends for money and there was a thing that we offered that was like a handwritten lyric sheet with the story behind the song.
And so Julia bought that and requested a lyric sheet with the story behind the song for this song.
Oh, wow. Which, as a way of cornering me into having to admit the provenance of the song.
And I did not fulfill that lyric sheet for quite a while.
And it wasn't until, again, sort of as a joke in return, but it wasn't until we got engaged that I then did actually deliver the lyric sheet with the story as a kind of like, you know, obviously this is a song about you and the way I feel about you.
Do you have a favorite part of the song?
I always love everything Adam writes.
He, like, wrote the last verse that I think kind of, like, takes it to a totally different place.
It gets, like, a lot darker right at the end in a way that I wouldn't have done, but think it gives it a lot of heft.
So put that record on Atlantic City And we'll drive here in the dark While there's still time We haven't closed all of the doors To the night It still feels good to lean my head Into your side Cause if I didn't know The way you'd come to me Through the first snow You'd find me there Far and in before that When I told you I was hopeless You said all right We're carrying you back for a big night A big night Well, thank you so much, Ben.
Thanks for having me.
This was fun. Happy Valentine's Day.
Such a beautiful song.
Again, that's If I Didn't Know You By Now by Rukin.
I'm not sure if Ben's going to convince Justin that folk is the best genre for love songs, but in a minute, Malcolm Gladwell weighs in and he gets us thinking about this question in an entirely different way.
The Unshakables podcast is back for season two.
And it's kicking off with an episode you absolutely won't want to miss.
Host of the show and CEO of Chase for Business, Ben Walter, welcomes a very special guest, Chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Dimon.
One of the world's most respected financial thought leaders, Jamie will connect the dots between the current challenges and opportunities facing small business owners and the broader financial landscape.
And of course, it wouldn't be an episode of The Unshakables if Jamie didn't share some of the uh -oh moments that he overcame to forge ahead in his own career.
You can find this must -hear episode and the rest of the upcoming season of The Unshakables wherever you get your podcasts.
Learn more at chase .com slash podcast.
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Yeah, I don't think country music does good love songs.
I think it does good breakup songs, heartbreak songs.
It does the reverse.
Malcolm Gladwell is a best -selling author, the host of Revisionist History, and Pushkin's resident country music aficionado.
When I heard we were doing a Valentine's Day music episode, I knew we were going to have to get his take.
So country music, which is consistent with its role in American popular culture, it is the downer to rock music's upper, right?
Rock music, and I did a whole Revisionist History episode on this.
It was, you know, the striking thing about rock music is the inability of rock musicians to write effective sad songs.
Their sad songs are terrible.
They're just not sad, right?
They're not believably sad.
They're rock and roll songs that are kind of, you know, trying to pretend to, like, I gave the example of Wild Horses, which is supposed to be a sad song.
It's not sad. What's sad about it?
And also it's like totally— It's so sad and faux country, huh?
It's also banal and like wild, wild horses.
Like, what is going on?
I mean, it's just like it doesn't work.
Country, though, is totally comfortable in that kind of emotional morass.
That's the whole—it's depressive music.
That's the whole point.
It's the South. It's like white guys who lost the Civil War, never got over it, That's what it is.
You know, I was talking to some guy yesterday about the Church of Christ, which is a almost overwhelmingly southern denomination of Christian denomination.
And Nashville is the heart of Church of Christ.
The music in Church of Christ churches is insane.
The Church of Christ famously has no orchestral music.
It's all a cappella, which is way more demanding.
And the Church of Christ, it is not a happy denomination.
It's not Pentecostals jumping up and down and welcoming the risen Lord.
No. It's like white Southerners bemoaning the loss of their status and like be bowing their head in the face of a vengeful God.
And no piano to lift their spirits.
And no piano to lift their spirits.
No organ, no piano, no nothing.
Use your own voice, damn it.
Which is why, by the way, so many country singers come from the Church of Christ.
Amy Grant is Church of Christ.
Merle Haggard is Church of Christ.
I could go on and on.
The list, if you look it up, is insane.
Yeah, I'm looking at this church.
I'm like, this isn't Roy Orbison.
They're all Church of Christ.
They're all Church of Christ.
Loretta Lynn. Woody Guthrie.
So like, is it any surprise country music, which comes from Nashville, the epicenter of the Church of Christ, is like the least happy music known to man?
No, it's like depressive.
so so stands stands to reason then that like in in the in the continuum of you know when it comes to love songs and the continuum of of sort of emotions that go along with love country music would fall more on the side of sad over a breakup sad over an unrequited love sad because i'm in a marriage i don't want to be in but i'm still in love with my high school sweetheart or whatever you know whatever those songs are that these sad kind of um love's not going right or breaking up One of my favorite country songs about heartbreak is, I think it's George Strait, Does Fort Worth Ever Cross Your Mind?
Which is a classic.
I mean, if we're going to talk about country music and sad songs, we're starting with George Strait.
Okay, so I'm going to read to you some lyrics to Does Fort Worth Ever Cross Your Mind?
This is the opening stanza.
Cold Fort Worth beer, this is how it begins.
Just ain't no good for jealous.
I've tried it night after night.
You're in someone else's arms in Dallas.
Does Fort Worth ever cross your mind?
Darling, while you're busy burning bridges, burn one for me if you get time.
What's hilarious about this is This song is all about parsing the cultural distinction Between Fort Worth and Dallas Which looms large in the minds of people from Texas And the rest of us are like, what?
This song makes no sense to anyone who's not from Texas I want to give you a You left me here to be with him in Dallas And I know it hurts you at the time Well, I wonder now if it makes a difference Does Fort Worth ever cross your mind?
It's 20 miles away.
It's a whole song. It's a whole song about a stretch of interstate.
It's just so fantastic.
This is what's so hilarious about it.
It's so petty. It's so petty and so...
But like, this is why rock and roll can't do a breakup song, because a breakup song requires a certain level of emotional and narrative specificity.
and rock and roll is too obsessed with being universal.
Yeah, they're not enough in the details.
No detail. Did Prince ever write a song about, did St. Paul ever cross your mind?
No. No, because that's not the business he's in.
He's not in the business of evoking this kind of strong emotion.
He was aware of the distinction between Minneapolis and St. Paul, but chose to overlook it in his songwriting.
That's why he's a rock musician or an R &B musician, not a country musician.
So he's saying that you left me to be with him.
He's saying Dallas with a level of, I mean, that's a level of disdain.
No, no, no, no. You have to understand the song here.
The reason why it's not, does Dallas ever cross your mind?
That's a wholly different song.
Yeah, yeah. Fort Worth is the ugly stepsister.
sister fort worth is is one step down the rung so she left him to upgrade and move up yeah that's why it hurts if she left him for him for a dude in fort worth he's fine he's moved on he's finding another girl in dallas no no no no he's in fort worth what does she do got up one morning drove down the interstate and upgraded her situation lead leaving him in a pile of tears in fort worth But you see, this is why, you know, when I was talking to Leah, this is why I think R &B is the greatest genre for love song.
I don't ever want to be the guy in Fort Worth pining about the woman who left me to upgrade to go to Dallas.
Like, that's why, like, Whitney Houston, like, you know, in her song, she catches, like, the guy cheating.
She says, it's not right, but it's okay.
I'm gonna make it anyway.
Like, I want to, you left me, fine.
I'm not gonna wallow.
I'm just gonna move on with my life.
Bigger, better things.
That's where I want to live.
No, no, it's what you're just identifying is that she's made stronger stuff.
That's what that's about.
And some of this is like, is bathos.
Am I pronouncing that right?
Is it bathos or bathos?
Pathos, pathos or bathos?
No, bathos, I think bathos is the word I want.
Bathos? B -A -T -H, bathos, definition.
Yeah, anticlimax created by an unintentional lapse in mood from the sublime to the trivial or ridiculous.
like that's what does fortworth ever cross your mind is beth is bethos right that's what that is right that's uh that's the appeal that's the appeal of the uh of the song is so i mean is there a hope for the country music family like you know i guess there are country music songs explicitly about love they're just not as good they're just not they're not the the a -tier country music songs right i mean there's like forever never amen randy travis people play at their wedding.
But that's the song.
But think about that song.
The way he sings it, he sings it like it's a sad song.
I'm going to love you forever and ever.
It's very wistful. Forever and ever.
It sounds like he's committing to a prison sentence.
Oh, man. Like, what does it say about you, Malcolm, that when you're asked to think what genre might be the greatest for love songs your mind goes to the breakup song I once had a friend named Mike and he didn't know me very well and we decided to go to a ball game together this is in the 80's and we drove from Washington D .C.
to Baltimore to see the Orioles and I played some mixtapes in the car and at the end he turned to me and he said I had no idea how depressed you are because every single song in the mixtape was a song about some kind of broken heart, suffering, sadness, death.
I don't know. That's what I want in a song.
But there is no part of being around you that feels mired in sadness or depression.
No, but I don't like upbeat songs.
It's my problem with rock and roll.
It's just like, just calm down already.
Can we wallow in our emotions for a moment here and not just beating our head against the wall in ecstasy.
It strikes me as unseemly.
Leah, I mean, several points well taken from Malcolm.
You know, I love country music dearly.
I think songwriting is impeccable, and they certainly do a love song and a sad song incredibly well.
But, you know, I just I guess I just I just like a more happy song.
I like a more. I just I don't know.
I don't know if I can live like in that kind of misery.
I think it's so funny.
I mean, you know that I love a sad song over a happy song and I'll take a depressed, unrequited love song over a happy over the moon love song any day.
Well, Leah, you know, I feel like we're back to where we started, which is, you know, I mean, you're probably right.
Look, the whole idea of genre is, um, and it's a, it's a man -made creation and there's probably no way to categorize what sort of genre and what culture, um, does the love song the best.
It's just, it's so subjective.
It's so totally subjective.
And, you know, it's for me based on my personal experiences, still R &B.
I mean, I think I'm even further entrenched in my position now at this point.
But, you know, I love that Malcolm and Ben both have their strong feelings.
And I love that your ever sort of noncommittalness around any of this.
No, I'm just going to keep it open.
I'm keeping it open for new experiences.
And I'm going to sit here and I'm going to celebrate Valentine's Day by listening to songs that make me cry.
Well, you know, no, no, no.
Celebrate Valentine's Day.
I made a great playlist of love songs.
Listen to that. We'll put that in the show notes.
And listen to that.
Not the sad songs, please.
Wait, I just saved a playlist.
And this is real. I just saved a playlist from Spotify called Classics for Crying.
So I'm getting that queued up.
This episode was produced by Isabel Carter and edited by Sarah Nix.
Our mix engineer is Sarah Bruguere.
Special thanks to Ben Nadeff -Hoffrey, Malcolm Gladwell, Costanza Gallardo, Owen Miller, and Eric Sandler.
I'm your host, Justin Richmond.
And I'm Leah Rose. Happy Valentine's Day.
