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Like sometimes the process is not necessarily looking at the end goal, but stopping and looking and seeing how far you've come.
Hi everyone my name is Dora and welcome to Radio Headspace.
So today I want to talk about therapy and I think that sometimes people assume that just because I'm a meditation teacher I don't go to therapy like it has to be one or the other and that is not the case at all.
I've actually been in therapy for a very long time.
I think it can be great for your mental health and And I also think it's a very hard thing to start and sometimes even harder to navigate, whether it's cultural stigma or just misconceptions around therapy.
These are very real barriers that a lot of people face.
So that's why I brought on Shani Tran.
She is a licensed therapist, content creator, and the founder of The Shani Project.
Her work is all about making therapy more accessible for everyone.
And this episode is almost like a how -to guide for therapy.
We get into the before, during, and after of a therapy session, green and red flags to look out for when searching for a therapist, and also how to break up with your therapist. I hope you enjoy.
Well, thank you so much for joining me today on Radio Headspace.
I am so excited for this call as someone that has been in therapy for over five years now.
now. Less consistent than in the beginning, but I really just want to dive into the therapy journey, especially for people who don't know where to begin, because there's so much information out there.
And I know for myself, I would have loved like a, you know, ABC, one, two, three guide of like where to get started and some of the different things that we actually have the power in changing when it comes to therapy and picking providers or settings or even just just different type of therapy type.
So excited and happy to have you here.
My first question is what initiated you on your path to becoming a therapist?
Originally, I think it has to do with the meme that is going viral right now where it's like, I could have used a hug, but I went and got a therapy degree.
And that is what basically landed me, I guess, here in that I had a lot lot of trauma in my childhood my mother and my father remember it differently than I do but I just remember being alone in my adversity and not really having anyone to lean on and so for me I had fell in love with the psychology class when I was in high school the teacher the teacher makes a difference let's just say that and I told my guidance counselor hey I want to be a therapist and they're like oh you need a master's and I was like okay never mind mind.
So focused on theater, but it just kept calling.
It just kept calling me and then when I started my grad program, master school was different because you only focus on what you are in school for.
You don't have to really do like the gen eds and I just fell in love.
I was, yes, this is where I'm meant to be.
Yeah, I love that and you know, you wrote a whole book about, you know, how to navigate the therapy journey.
And I'm curious, like, does your background in your personal history, did it inspire the book Dope Therapy?
Or what made you want to create a book like that?
Yes. So I found that what actually inspired the book is me being on social media and me making videos about therapy and people responding to them like, oh, my gosh, I didn't know you could do that.
Or I didn't know that you couldn't do that.
And I'm just like, oh, wow people don't really know sort of the nuances of how a therapy relationship can build or even just the I don't want to say simple things but just going to therapy like I still feel like I educate clients on deductibles and how that works and so for me it was just giving a guide to how How do you start?
Because sometimes that's the hardest part is one, not hearing back from therapists.
How do you even find a therapist?
Because I feel like a lot of people may search for a therapist and then find themselves working with therapists and being like, oh, I don't think this actually works for me, but hey, this is the therapist I found.
So I really wanted to give people the autonomy and their journey.
Yeah. I'm thinking back to my first therapy visit.
it. Luckily for me, you know, I come from an immigrant household.
So my mom's from Kenya.
My dad's from Ghana.
Therapy is not something that they're familiar with.
So there was a lot of stigma in going to therapy, but my mom is a social worker.
So she knew and encouraged me to go to therapy at a time when I was experiencing depression.
And I hesitated for weeks.
I was in my bedroom, like rehearsing what I was going to say and if I'm going to say it right and what are are they going to say?
And here's how I'm going to respond.
And I just like the, even the fear of getting it wrong was a big thing for me in terms of like, how do I show up to show this person that I'm like really struggling or really suffering.
And in that therapy, it's that first therapy experience.
It was horrible. It was not, it was not great, you know?
And I didn't know that had the power to be able to advocate for myself or even what to look for when looking for a therapist. This was just recommended by my mom.
So I'm thinking for folks who are wanting to enter, what are certain things that they should be aware of when looking for a therapist?
You mentioned CBT is a type of therapy, but anything else to consider?
So I think the biggest thing is figuring out what do you want to work on?
And once you figure that out, looking for therapists that have expertise in that topic.
So an example is for me when I went to therapy this last route I wanted to work on ADHD.
I was recently diagnosed with ADHD last year so it was very important for me to find someone who that is their specialty that is what they know and also too if I'm being honest I really also wanted a therapist themselves that were neurodivergent because I'm someone that you can tell me, oh, I understand, but I really want someone who has maybe not walked in my exact shoes, but at least down the path.
And so I knew I wanted to work on ADHD.
Then there were some other things that came into play for me.
I'm a black woman. And so I really did want to find a black woman therapist. So black woman therapist, ADHD, and I pay for insurance.
So I want to use use it.
Like I want to use my insurance.
So you need to accept my insurance.
And then my last thing was I wanted to be in person because I am a therapist and I do telehealth.
I really just wanted to leave my home and go to a safe space where I know no one's listening.
I know that I can show up here and it's for that amount of time just because how my brain works.
I sit at my desk doing therapy at my desk felt just like a little disconnected.
disconnected yeah when I got on that journey I had to I had to be like okay maybe this is a little bit like dating I need to pull back and figure out like what's most important because it was just very challenging for me to get all of that in one therapist and so I basically settled on if you know the ADHD and you're neurodivergent and you accept my insurance I will take you and you are culturally sensitive, that's fine.
So that's what I ended up settling on.
And so, yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is knowing what you are going to therapy for so that you can find someone that has sort of like helped navigate other clients in that.
Yeah. Yeah. And I want to touch on what you just mentioned around working with a therapist that has your same lived experience.
I know for myself how important it was to also find, you know, a black woman therapist who had experience with anxiety and depression.
But I'm curious, you know, what are the benefits when looking for a therapist that has, you know, the same lived experience or even just picking a therapist that has a similar identity as you?
Yeah. So here's the really beautiful part about it.
And this is something that I think maybe you you may not find until you get into the therapeutic relationship.
The most important thing when it comes to therapy is the therapeutic relationship, right?
Because the client, me, I'm in therapy, I have to be able to trust that you're going to hold space for me.
Like if I cry, I want to know that therapists are human too.
I want to, you know, you may say you're not going to judge me, but I see how, I see what your brow did there when I cried a little bit.
That could also be the spectrum talking, but like at the same time, like I'm very attentive to those things.
So I wanted to make sure that I felt safe.
And so one of the ways that it really helped me was, so my daughter, she's younger, and I'm new to the Arizona school system.
And I was told that we have to hold her back.
And I was telling my therapist about it.
And I feel like right before I say this, people are like, Oh, therapist shouldn't self disclose.
But but self -disclosure can be done in a way that is very beneficial, validating and normalizing.
And my therapist was like, Oh no, no, no, no. I've had that happen to my daughter.
And immediately I was like, Oh my gosh, someone has actually lived and walked.
Please tell me, help, help, help me.
You've been here. And all the advice that she offered me was just so helpful because it wasn't like, I think this could work.
It's like, no, I have been here and I want to offer this to you.
And basically she helped me find my voice in that.
She was like, as you know, the studies don't say that holding a child back, it's beneficial and you can say no. I wasn't aware that I, as a parent could be like, no, you cannot hold my child back.
And so she sort of gave me my voice in that and autonomy to be able to stick up for my daughter.
And that was, that was probably one of the first moments in our therapeutic relationship.
I was like, okay, I trust you.
Uh, and just helping ease my brain and that, cause she's like, I, I know you're spiraling.
And she's like, yes, I, I too am neurodivergent.
And I was like, oh my gosh, like you get it.
Yeah. Yeah. That safety and trust piece is so important because, Because, you know, again, for those that have never done this before, it's like so many unknowns and so much uncertainty around how is this going to work out?
How will I be received?
I remember I was holding so much shame in the beginning around like, oh, man, my life is pretty messed up, you know.
And I want someone that can be able to hold that with like a kindness and a tenderness.
So that was really, really important for me.
I'm curious, like, how do you decide what to touch on?
Because I think we live in a world right now where there's like, there's my issues and then there's the issues out there.
And on any different day, I'm going between the individual, collective, spiritual, ancestral realms. And how do we figure out what to talk about in therapy?
Oh, my gosh. OK, so for me, I keep notes on my phone.
And so when I'm deciding what to talk about, it's really in the moment what for me has come up in the week or what I'm afraid to say to myself out loud.
I may choose that because those give me the skills so that I can do my day to day.
Yeah. Yeah. And not to touch on family again.
I'm thinking about how I used to keep a journal in the diary and I was so afraid for my family members to find out what I was writing about them.
Yes. But how do we go about talking to family members around, you know, I'm deciding to enter into therapy.
You may not, or may be the cause of why I'm going to therapy, but how do we let our loved ones know that's something that we are curious in our beginning?
beginning when it comes to family and deciding who to tell the first thing is to decide are they a safe space for you because you don't have to divulge information if it's not safe like family doesn't need to know that you are in therapy if you don't feel comfortable but let's say if it is a space where you feel comfortable and you want to let them know about the journey i would say choosing like a neutral space where you feel you can walk away.
Instead of like, say, having family come over to your house, then maybe they don't respond.
And you got like, Hey, can you leave choosing a space where you feel as if you can walk away if it's needed, and then say what you feel comfortable saying.
You don't have to tell them everything.
You can say something along the lines of I'm in therapy.
I'm working on myself.
I'm not sure what changes will come about, but I do just kind of want to give you a heads up that I'm starting my journey.
You know, I remember when I had told my parents, there was like so much around like, oh my gosh, what did we do wrong?
Or, you know, let's go to church and let's pray about it and see what happens.
And I was like, yeah, I think I just want to go to therapy instead.
And it was really hard to even confide in them about what I was learning or what I was experiencing or even wanting to go with them.
Cause I'm like, you guys can really benefit from being in here with me yeah so for those people maybe that are feeling isolated from family is there other people that we can confide in or should this be simply a solo journey to embark on oh no I would say support is huge that's one of the first questions that I honestly ask clients when they start their when we have an intake session first session I want to know what your support system looks like, because although you come to therapy to feel better, more than likely you're going to feel worse before you feel better.
And I want to make sure that, hey, who's that person that you call when you're having a rough day?
Who is someone that if you just want to be in their company, don't really want to talk, but you feel safe, who's that person?
So it doesn't have to be family, but it is identifying.
I would say if people can two to three people just because I think it's healthy to not have sort of just one person that is your emotional support.
It's nice to sort of have two to three people.
Right. Just in case someone life happens.
Right. People sometimes aren't available.
So as long as you have a support system, a community, that that is what's important.
I would definitely say therapy is not a solo journey.
And your therapist is there for you, too.
too. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that reminder of having a support system in place.
So as we're learning all these different things in therapy and so many things are coming up or we're noticing shifts and changes, I often get homework from my therapist and I found that super helpful.
But what are ways that you would encourage people to start embodying what they're learning in therapy?
Because I also know that sometimes people keep what's happening in therapy in therapy and don't take it with them into their everyday life.
So yeah, what can people do to start really integrating all their learnings and findings?
I will say that I love, first of all, that your therapist gives you homework because homework to me as a therapist is so important.
Someone coming into therapy, say their biweekly client, I see you one hour.
That is so small compared to the rest of your life.
And oftentimes when people are coming, they're struggling with at something.
So being able to give them homework so that they can practice the skills that they are that they are trying to achieve is so important because homework can be trial and error, right?
And so for someone that's embarking on the journey, one, ask your therapist, hey, I'm just wondering throughout this process, do you give homework?
Can you give homework?
Because I really want to be able to say you go in and you're talking about a family dynamic that made you upset?
Can you help me find a skill so that when I'm not here talking to you and either pre going into that or after going in that I can be able to practice so that I can help regulate myself and maybe it not get me as emotionally charged.
So that's definitely a way I'm a huge supporter of meditation.
I feel like I know it can be a trend, but it is just so helpful.
And the reason why is because the mind -body connection that you can have from meditation can help you so that let's say if you are in some sort of situation where you're dealing with like depression or anxiety or anger or sort of like those heightened emotions, when you go outside of your window of tolerance, you may not know that that's where you're headed.
And so when you practice meditation, it allows you to have that mind -body connection and be able to, oh, whoa, hold on a second.
Like like my heart's racing, my thoughts, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm heading out of my window of tolerance.
And so I'm a huge proponent for meditation, even if it's just starting out with one minute, because I think there's sort of this idea of I'm sitting down.
It's Zen, my legs across my thoughts.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Uh, your thoughts come and they're like clouds.
You don't, You let the clouds float by and it's really just more so being present and in your body.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm biased.
I'm a meditation teacher.
So I'm like, oh, OK.
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
You know, my therapist actually explained to me is meditation being also like therapy, but like a modern form of exposure therapy, because when you're sitting in meditation, yes coming up and you're really being invited to just be with it and that in and of itself is it's not easy you know you're starting to see things that maybe you weren't seeing before and then she like in therapy to meditation but out loud and also having that therapist to be that non -judgmental and biased voice that can be helping you so I love that you brought the the two together.
Yes. And it's so too, I think about, I'm trying to remember if this was like a quote or a book I read.
I read so many books and I watched so many meditation videos, but it was about, it was about like a young monk trying to practice meditation and it was always loud where they were and they felt very frustrated.
And so they had this idea to like get on a boat and go go in the middle of the ocean.
And then they're like, yes, finally, I can meditate.
But then the next time that they did it, I think like birds came up or like waves.
And then they went back to the, like their teacher.
And they're like, I just can't find the space to like meditate quiet.
And it's like, keep trying because that, because that's the purpose of it is to be able to calm yourself in the midst of chaos.
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, with meditation, we always say that that there's no goal or outcome, but I'm curious in therapy, like how do people know if they're healed or is there like an end goal that we are striving for?
Yes. So that's a really great question.
One of the things that I love to do with clients is when we sort of start the treatment planning process, what are some things that you want to work on two to three and being able to to track the progress.
So an example may be, let's say if you have someone who is anxious and they want to not have panic attacks.
So then the goal is to decrease the panic attacks.
And what we will do on that process is let's say for like four months and I'll check in and be like, Hey, over the last four months, you know, how many panic attacks have you had?
And, you know, so we can sort of get that data and then I'll check in again and let's say if it's decreased I'm like oh you have one less panic attack like sometimes the process is not necessarily looking at the end goal but stopping and looking and seeing how far you've come to be able to say oh okay yes I know the goal is to not have panic attacks but hold on a second I'm making progress because I have one one less panic attack this week.
That's great. That's amazing.
And then also reminding clients, let's say if the same client came in and like a couple of weeks and was like, Oh my gosh, I had like five panic attacks this week.
And it's like, okay, guess what?
That's not, that's not defeat.
That's not failure.
It's just maybe sometimes we don't recognize things that may trigger us or charge us until we're in the situation.
And so it's just new data.
Wow. You you discovered something that makes you go out of your window of tolerance.
There you go. Like, let's work on that.
So I, I feel like it's, it's sort of like looking at the process in a way of like healing because there, I mean, I feel like people might not like this, but like there, there's no healed, there's no hill.
Cause you're still life's happening.
Right. I don't know.
I know you've been in therapy, but let's say you're working on anxiety.
Right. Right. And then all of a sudden you're like, my dog died.
Yeah. What now? Life's happening.
Right. And so now this is like, oh, my gosh, I've never put down a dog before.
I have to process this.
And so it's just life is happening.
There isn't a heel.
Things change you. And it's really just being able to gather the skills so that you feel as if you can go through life without out, feeling like it's the end of days.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
There is no end to this, which for some people can be intimidating and daunting.
And for me, it's so liberating.
Like I don't have to get it all resolved in this lifetime.
Maybe like I can just focus on what I can focus on and do my best and show up and, you know, put in the work and time and effort to heal.
But I kind of let myself off of like the hook around like, I must be healed by you know, 2026.
Oh, yeah. And I do want to say, because I feel like maybe someone heard this, like, damn, yeah, just my deductibles are real high.
Yeah. And so I want to acknowledge that that even though the end game isn't technically healed, the end game may be therapy ends when you feel like you have the skills to do it on your own and you may step away from it.
But then maybe another life event happens that brings you back.
So knowing that there is an end game to therapy and it looks different for everyone.
For some people is I've gathered the skills for some people.
It's like, oh, wow.
wow, I feel as if I can be open and talk about how I feel.
So now I want to work on my support system.
So it's different in that way.
And people just have to figure out what it looks like for therapy to end, not necessarily the healing to end.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious then let's say the healing needs to continue.
We're in the thick of things, but we're noticing that we aren't really vibing with our therapist, I didn't know that I could break up with my therapist until a friend had told me, but for people who are maybe noticing like something here doesn't feel right.
How do we go about ending a relationship with the therapist?
Yes. So, okay. It's really, I have a very interesting story about this.
The first thing is I encourage the person to ask ask themselves, what is it about the therapeutic relationship that is leading you to be like, I need to break up with my therapist?
And the only reason I say that is because so my therapist, as I've said previously, is neurodivergent.
And every time I would start the session, I felt like she was looking down.
It's telehealth. I'm like, are you looking at your phone, girl?
Like, what are you doing?
I'm here. Look at me.
But also being aware that That eye contact, it's different, right?
Culturally, neurodivergent.
And so part of me, my attachment style was showing up and I was like, yeah, I'm about to break up with her.
She ain't giving me, she's not paying attention to me.
And then I said, you know what?
This is a safe space for me to navigate conflict, which is something that when there's a power power dynamic.
So I'm talking about maybe parent, or even when I was in like a corporate job where there was a boss, I really struggled with telling someone who kind of had a little bit more power over me how I actually felt.
So I told myself, I'm going to tell my therapist, Hey, you're looking down and it impacts me.
And it went so well.
And she was just like, Hey, I don't remember.
I don't know if you remember I'm neurodivergent that's how I process when you talk is I look down and I'm listening and then I can when I'm ready to respond I look up and I was like oh okay yeah I think I was just making sure you weren't on your phone because I kind of felt unimportant in that way and so I would say asking is it something that you feel that you can bring up with your therapist. Because I always say as a therapist, sometimes how a client responds to me is data for how they may respond to other people in their life.
And so granted, I don't want to dismiss though, like a therapist saying something that's rude rude or harming, definitely like, yeah, get out.
But also to being able to find your voice and say, hey, actually, you know, we've been working together for like a year.
And what you said last session, it didn't sit with me.
And this is why. And your therapist, if they're a great therapist, will provide that safe space to navigate that conflict and also repair the the situation which now models to you, the client, okay, I can repair things when people upset me.
Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, yeah, what you just said too around, like if you've never been able to engage in healthy conflict, that may be a really big thing for you.
Something as simple as just, you know, I don't want to be in this therapeutic relationship anymore, but that may seem so intimidating.
So I'm glad that you also mentioned that as well.
And I love that that you always talk about owning your like I was looking at your podcast yes and all your writing and I'm like I love that there is that sense of accountability because sometimes we place it on the therapist of like they're not doing a good job and they're there and it's also an opportunity for us to self -reflect around like what's actually coming up in this moment yeah and like what are your needs and and wants and because you as the client only has one therapist well some people people have to depending on like specialties, but it's really, I think the most important thing is being
able to own your voice.
And so let's say if you're someone that you walk away from the sessions, you're just like, I just feel like I talked and I ain't getting nothing.
Hey, like ask your therapist. I'm just curious.
Can you offer me feedback?
Is that something that you do?
Because I feel like it's something that I need.
Uh, and if it's something that you find that maybe isn't your style, I can seek services elsewhere.
And another thing may be, you know, sometimes I feel like people are just nervous because, you know, I'm human too.
And they sort of don't, I feel like people have to sort of test the waters, like, what can you handle about my stuff?
And so it's also okay to be like, hey, I'm just letting you know, I do really want to talk about my trauma, but right now I don't feel like we have that trust yet.
And I want to talk about that.
Talking about the dynamic with your therapist is important because that is what will help you build trust, too, to be able to have cathartic moments or even cry.
Like there are some people out there that's like, I don't like crying in front of people.
I will tell a client, OK, I can turn off my camera.
Do you want to turn off your camera, too?
if you're feeling it come up for you like let's do that i want to give you the space so that you can release those emotions yeah yeah you know i think it was last week my therapist was like what do you need in this moment like you don't have to be sitting upright you can be lying down yeah your camera can be all these different things or even though i've been in therapy for a long time i'm like i didn't know i could be lying down in this like yeah yeah oh yeah sometimes i have have to tell clients go let's open up a window yeah I can't see you I don't mind if you're laying down but I can't see
you yeah yeah well I feel like we covered so much today I mean yeah there's so much the before during after therapy and to end you know what's one thing or I don't want to do one thing sometimes it's a lot to put into one thing but maybe one or two or three things that you uh would give as a piece of advice for people that are embarking on this journey journey okay so i think that the thing that i would say is i see this across the board working with clients and also myself people in your life may not respond well to your change and that's not your responsibility to take care of how they respond
to you changing however i think I think just bringing that to your attention, it's knowing that that's a possibility.
People, we as a human species, we just don't do well with change.
And sometimes when we know someone, like let's say if you have a friend you've known since kindergarten, and then you start your therapy journey at 26, and all the things are happening for you, you're changing how you live your life, you're placing boundaries, people might not respond to that in the way that you are hoping.
being. So I think my biggest advice is just having that in your perspective that people might not like the you that you're becoming.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And knowing that they may be a part of a version of you that you didn't like.
I think that sometimes people forget that like, hey, I'm I'm changing.
I'm doing all these great things.
And I like who I'm becoming.
But my friend doesn't like that.
And it's like, oh, because your friend might like the version of you that you don't like.
Yeah. That's a good one.
NBSR is this eight -week psycho -interventional mindfulness course that I teach. We list the benefits and we also list the risks.
And one of the risks is the social risk around, again, you're in here for three hours every week meditating on this inward journey.
journey and it's beautiful and profound, but it also comes, it may come as a loss, right?
Because a lot of people may enjoy the mindless version of you.
And it's just something for people to be aware of.
Cause I probably started to meditate.
I wanted to be on the street corner, letting everything know, like, yes, yes.
People don't want to know.
Yes. Yes. And I think the other thing is be kind to yourself.
There are just going to be moments in this journey where as you're working on yourself and kind of peeling back those onion layers, there may be parts of yourself that you're like, oh, I don't like that.
I didn't know that was like me.
You're human. So be kind to yourself and recognizing that when you're talking in therapy, you're saying a lot of things that maybe people don't say out loud that you may, you know, it could be social media, friend gatherings, you know, like an example might be.
I don't know, I just think of an example might be like, oh, my gosh, I went on this date with someone.
And I don't like cats and their cat jumped up on the couch. And like, I wanted to punch the cat in the face.
And I don't know why, why I feel that way.
You know, and it could be like oh my gosh totally forgot when I was younger I was bit by a cat yeah so I just like to be I like to remind people hey some things are gonna come up you know those thoughts that we want to hide from people and that's why the therapeutic relationship is so important so that you can show up and be like okay this might sound weird uh I have thoughts of wanting to cheat on my partner that doesn't mean you're going to cheat on your partner right like name it to tame it let's talk talk about it.
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Shani.
Thank you so, so much. This was so wonderful and so insightful.
And even though I've been seeing a therapist for a while, I'm like, there's so many nuggets and gems that you drop that are just such important reminders.
So thank you so much. Yes.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you. And where can we find you or is there anything that you're are working on that you'd like to share yeah so you can find me on the socials instagram is probably my most active right now the shawnee project and then tiktok the shawnee project website i have merch so you can always go to the website the shawnee project that that's where you can find me yeah or outside running somewhere i like to run me too me too awesome thank you so much thank you Thank you.
