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Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one part of this series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us.
So today I am delighted to welcome Charlie Gilkey to Before Breakfast.
Charlie is the owner of Productive Flourishing.
He is also the author of the books, Team Habits and Start Finishing.
So Charlie, welcome to the show. Laura, thanks so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here today. Yeah. Well, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
So I'll try to keep this brief. I am one of those polymathic folks that like fall in a lot of holes and figure out how I fell into it and then tell people. how not to do that and then get back out of it.
I'm kind of a dinosaur now on the internet, turns out.
Been doing this since the mid-2000s. you know, writing about a variety of things from personal productivity to teaming better to leading better.
And so the span of my work actually goes through all of those.
And yeah, It may or may not come up today, given the format of the show, but at heart, I'm... more of a philosopher figuring things out than an entrepreneur or sort of writer in that sort of way.
So most of this sort of stuff is just me grappling with paradoxes and hard problems and trying to make sense of it all.
Yeah. Well, how did you land in this field of productivity, though?
I mean, one can follow all sorts of rabbit holes and And maybe you can weave into this because I understand you also had a military career before all this as well.
I wonder if that had anything to do with all this.
Well, that was very definitely how I got into this.
So I deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2004 and 2005, and I was a logistics officer And by the end of my tour, I was, you know, the plans officer and coordinating like lots of convoy movements in the theater.
And so I'd gotten really good at doing big things and getting good stuff done in tight timeframes.
But then I came back and got back into grad school, so I'm a near PhD in philosophy.
And after about a semester or two, I was like, you know, Here's the problem.
Like I can do all this really great stuff on the military side of things, but this 5,000 word essay is kicking my butt.
Like what is going on here? And so like any good scholar and officer would do, I was like, I'm not the only person that has this problem.
Like, Surely someone else has figured this out.
So I started reading the classics, the seven habits, the getting things done. and found that I was doing so much work translating them for someone who was a polymathic creative person that I was like, you know what, I'm just going to start sharing this sort of stuff with other people.
So. like any good old millennial or young Gen Xer would do.
I started a blog about it, right? And so I started writing about it and it really started helping people.
And so more and more people started asking me like, hey, will you help me with my team?
Will you help me with my own personal productivity?
Will you help me with my business? business.
And it took off from there. So where I am now, was nowhere on the map in the mid 2000s.
Like I had no idea that I could do it or people like me could do it.
And so, yeah, it's just been this emergent, fascinating adventure that I'm still figuring out as I go along.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you said something interesting there.
You used the phrase personal productivity.
And I understand from some things you've written that you say that's a bit of a misnomer, that productivity is kind of more of a. a team sport.
I mean, certainly that's the case when you're, you know, doing leading a lot of people in the military, for instance.
But that's the case in other contexts as well.
Yeah, it really is and so unless you are, you know, Henry David Thoreau living on Walding Pond or something like that.
You work with other people, you live with other people.
And fundamentally productivity, in my view, is about becoming the best version of yourself or thriving in the way that's uniquely you.
And to thrive, you have to do that in a social, economic, and political context.
And so... I think so much of the personal productivity conversation when people come to us, people are taking a lot of onus on themselves to... sort of adopt a hero complex that their own actions will change a lot of things.
But the reality is, working and learning how to work in teams, learning how to lead teams, learning how to work with your family is actually where the secret sauce of thriving and productivity really is.
Yeah, it was funny. Even Thoreau, I believe, was having his mom do his laundry or something like that.
Correct, correct. So there were other people involved.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, so with with productivity, you know, another topic you've you've talked about is like time blocking and the different types of blocks people might put into their day.
So I remember reading something about like, focus blocks and administration blocks and social blocks.
I mean, because those are, you know, also in the recovery block.
So let's talk about those. Yeah, so thanks for bringing that up.
So a focus block is, if you're familiar with Cal Newport's work, you might call it a deep work block, But it's really that block of time where you focus on one thing at a time and really work that through.
Now the misnomer or the misconception people have is that They can only do that one thing.
So it's like, I can only be staring at the screen writing for that amount of time.
It's like, no, it's really all of the processes that's the So if you need to get coffee and go to the bathroom, make outlines, that's still part of the block.
And usually these blocks are 90 to 120 minutes long because that's really how long it takes to get into something and make some substantial progress. and then get out smoothly and sanely, right?
So 90 to 120 minutes there. Social blocks are what we're talking about there is like times in which you're, open, available, and sort of in a good place to be peopling, right?
And that's not a universal thing. Some people are not know i don't talk to them in the morning some people don't talk to them after 3 30. so you kind of kind of know that And again, those are 90 to 120 minutes because what people forget about is for any sort of one hour meeting,
There's about 15 minutes ahead of time where you're sinking and transitioning and getting into it.
And then there's almost always admin that comes on the back end of it that you need to sort of process and get clear with.
Right. And if you don't schedule that or you don't think about it that way, you end up with this wall of admin and loose thoughts and scatteredness because you didn't actually contain that time.
Right. Admin blocks. What they sound like is where you're doing the emails.
You're making a quick phone calls. You're doing those types of things.
Those are 30 to 60 minutes long because.
One, most of us don't want to spend all afternoon doing them and you'll start to rebel and jump to social media or whatever your distraction is. but also it helps you focus on what are the key things that need to be done and be proactive about it.
And last but not least, our recovery blocks.
So Laura, when I started this gig, I just assumed people would schedule recovery blocks and schedule downtime and schedule stretch breaks and lunch.
But then we've done the work you and I've done the work, you know, that's not happening.
So I was like, okay, people. let's make the obvious explicit.
You need a recovery block. Now, the thing about recovery blocks, is that there's no set amount of time.
And there's no set activity. It's what it does for you that matters.
So Laura might think that CrossFit is recovery for her.
Charlie does not. Laura doesn't think that, but okay.
Well, you're the superstar here. So I have to build up this myth that you're the superhuman, right?
So I'm playing along, right? But Laura might think, or Charlie might think, actually just sitting down and outlining for five minutes is a recovery block just to get things out of my brain, right?
So it doesn't matter what the activity is, it's what it does for you that matters.
And when you really think about time blocking, you have to balance these in a way that fits your internal and external demands and requirements and what fits your aspirations.
And what I'll say real quick is the limiting factor to career and personal growth are going to be how many focus blocks you have.
Because that's where you do the work that matters most.
And if you have zero or too few, you're not going to be doing those things.
And you're going to get caught on that wheel where you're you're just getting through and you're getting by, but you're not really getting ahead.
Yeah. Well, I'm curious, what are your recovery blocks?
What do you do to rejuvenate yourself? Um, I have a coffee shop that's about 0.9 miles away.
So I'll walk down to the coffee shop and get coffee.
And it's a forcing function for me to get away from screens.
I ride motorcycles because when I'm riding motorcycles, I can't do anything but ride motorcycles, right?
One hopes. One hopes, right? I do. I have a... like a rucksack that I'll walk around in, play video games, sort of mindless video games that don't require a lot of thinking. reading, I have to be careful about writing because writing is one of those things where it very quickly turns from like,
Yeah. Yeah. Hiking outdoor stuff. Usually the rule for me is all of my recovery blocks are away from screens. as much as possible in nature, and as much as possible integrating movement.
Excellent. Excellent. All right. Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Charlie Gilkey.
Hey listeners, today's tip is powered by National University. you know my goal is to help you make the most of your day without sacrificing work or family time That's why I'm so happy to introduce an institution that shares the same values.
If you are thinking about going back to school, you're probably wondering how to fit it all in.
National's flexible online formats, four and eight-week courses, and monthly class starts help you begin your degree sooner, finish faster, and do it all on your own schedule.
So you have more options for managing work, family, and school.
With over 150 degrees, credentials, and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals.
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Well, I am back talking with Charlie Gilkey, who's the owner of Productive Flourishing.
So I want to talk with you a little bit about to-do lists.
I think you have talked about how people often get to-do lists wrong, right?
So maybe we can talk a little bit about the problems and then how we can solve those problems.
Oh, the many problems of a to-do list. I'm going to start with some non-obvious ones.
Y'all. Use a verb noun construct in your to-do list, like start it with a verb and have some noun on it.
So don't just be like podcast. podcast what do I do with that podcast right start the podcast record podcast edit podcast whatever that is don't just be like Jane What are you doing with Jane?
Is it call Jane, walk with Jane, like put a verb in front of those.
And that's one of the key things people do.
Like when I see I list someone's to do list and it's just a bunch of nouns and random stuff.
I'm like, I can't do this right. I don't know how you're doing this.
Verb noun constructs win the day. The second thing is be careful that you're not mixing too many sizes of action items on the same to-do list.
So I'll also look at people's to-do list and I'll have like, a year sized project and a month sized project and like three, five minute calls and like, I'm like your brain every time you do that can't really understand what needs to happen.
And our brains actually do not process multiple phases of time. at the same time very well, right?
So this is like your today's list. Keep it focused to two hour blocks of time and tasks that you're going to do.
Don't have the bigger project segment on there.
The other thing I'd say here is on your to-do list, and I'm realizing how obvious this may sound to many of your listeners, Lord, given what you're doing.
Be very clear about like what you must do versus what you might get to.
Right. Be critical. And usually it's like for most people, three to five things on that to do list are going to happen.
Anything else above that is probably magical thinking, unless you've done a really, really good job of like, stacking six admin blocks behind each other.
And you're really on top of that, but that sort of unstructured 17 thing to do list, Um, it is a recipe for failure.
And I think the last time, the last thing that I'll say here is write your, to do your action items as if you're writing them to someone else.
Right. Because odds are a lot of those to do's aren't going to get done.
Odds are what you wrote Monday three weeks ago. you might not remember Thursday, three weeks later.
So if you write it as if you're writing it to someone else, when you come back to that to-do list, When you come back to that action item, it will actually still make enough sense for you to push it forward.
So I also saw that you, I mean, you had a list on your website of productive flourishing of verbs that are associated with different timeframes.
And I found this fascinating because it's, you know, When you have a verb that's a project that's really a month-long project, right?
Like launch something, right? That's probably not a today kind of thing.
Whereas call somebody is a today thing. Right.
So, I mean, like what are what are the big verbs for big chunks of time and how can we recognize this and small ones?
Yeah, so if you wanted to Google that one, it would be 37 verbs for your action item.
So if you type productive flourishing 37 verbs, you'll find it.
But yeah, that was the brain gasm that I had while writing Start Finishing.
I was like, wait a second. There are certain verbs that just tell you what size the project is, right?
So call. Email, right? Ship, right? Those types of things.
Those are probably task related verbs of something that you could do in probably 200 minutes or less, right?
Great. But whenever you get to publish with a big P, like publish my book, you're already talking about many quarters in years, right? as opposed to publish a blog post, which if you're in that groove and you have that competency may actually be a task.
But if it's, you know, publish the ultimate guide to productivity, that might be a month long project, right?
Really might. So launch is one of those words.
Initiate is one of those big project words.
Research. can sometimes go either way. Like if you're researching on a big project, that's probably a month's side of things, you know?
I would just say, like, be very look at the verb, whatever verbs you use, because there's only really like the other thing about this is in the English language. there actually aren't that many task verbs, right?
Or action item verbs. So if you really look at the verbs that's on your to-do list, ask yourself, How big of what size of work is that telling me that this is what how big is this chunk and adjust accordingly.
Excellent. Good advice. So Charlie, I'm wondering if you have any routines that help make you more productive.
I know you advise lots of people. But what do you kind of swear by in your day-to-day life?
Okay. So I had to start that one with the fact that I'm a lion chronotype, which consider that's the early bird. right there in the old model.
So I'm an early riser. And so that means morning routines are gonna be really important for me.
And my morning routine has gotten pretty long by the time I incorporate physical recovery and just all the sort of things.
And so, you know, by the time I listen to a meditation.
By the time I sort of reflect and contemplate on the day, by the time I journal, and then by the time I go on the coffee walk, all like all of that's part of my morning routine. it might be 90 minutes to two hours, right?
Of just doing that. Now, Listeners, y'all know Laura is way better about productivity when you have kids.
So that might not work for folks who have a lot of kids, but it does work for me.
And that was the question, right? I also have end of day routines, like before I just sort of slide out and say, I'm done, like, what did I get done?
What didn't get done? What do I need to kick tomorrow?
What can I just let go of? And so those end of day routines, I talk about it as the 10, 15 split, whereas you stake 10, 10 minutes in the morning to review the plan that you made for yourself in the last 15 minutes of the day prior.
Because it turns out that end of day you is probably the more sane person and discerning version of you especially if you're a lion right especially at an early moment so it actually does a better job of making priorities and plans for the next day then early morning you that's got all the energy and all the coffee and all the exuberance for 45 minutes and then reality creeps back in, right?
So if you do that sort of process, yes, it's 25 minutes a day, but... it's a way better activity to do than just defaulting to email or social media.
And it helps you get ever better about seeing what you can actually do in a day versus what's delusional thinking.
Yeah, when people have that first cup of coffee, they can conquer the world and then discover later in the day that that might not be the case.
The world is formidable, it turns out. The world will kick back by the end of the day for sure.
Is there anything you've tried that hasn't worked for you?
Oh yes. Like usually I'll let it go very, very quickly.
So let me see if I can think of, um, This is a hard one because I move on very, very quickly from things that don't work.
So I can think of a lot of tools that don't work for me and why.
So I'll flip this because this actually came up today.
I have returned to the fact that I need, um, persistent visual cues for my goals.
So actually that would be a good way of saying it, just keeping my goals and priorities in a digital to-do list.
And I have like, I actually have an app for this, like does not work for me.
I need it on a whiteboard. I need it on a sticky note.
I need those sort of month size, quarter size, year size goals to stay persistent.
And in my visual field and not just in some app that I got to remember to go look for.
So that does not work for me at all. It may just be because I'm Gen X, but I just think our brains, we're deluded with so much, or we are in a deluge of digital information that we don't retain it anymore.
But those persistent goals, aspirations, values that I will place around the house. are really important to me.
And the reason I don't have them is actually earlier this year, my wife and I switched switched home offices.
And so I took everything to the essential and minimal to see what actually worked and what didn't work.
And have realized seven months into this experiment that not having those goals up, not having the whiteboards was one of those things was like, oh, that's why I'm scattered and more unfocused. and don't know where I'm going.
Just didn't have it in my visual field all day.
No, that's fascinating, though, that you guys switched home offices.
I'm so curious what... What led to that?
Because I'm guessing a lot of people don't do that.
You kind of claimed your spot, and especially if people started working from home during the pandemic, each of you chose your Home office spot, and it never gets changed.
So what led to this? Um... Environmental factors.
So my wife is much more sensitive to sun and I'm in the office that gets the most sun and it's an annoyance for me most days.
And so we just had this sort of simple idea.
It's like, why don't you take the south facing office, right?
That's got the sun and you can do your work there.
And then I'll take the back when that's darker and quieter. and seemed to be more of a nook sort of thing.
I love working in sort of libraries and sort of tight spots.
And so we tried it. But then just realized there were other environmental factors that we didn't consider, like all the kids that play in the backyard surrounding ours. and how loud they are all day, she's able to tune them out, I am not, right?
Also, it turns out that the, her office she doesn't work in her office as persistently as I do.
She works around the house. I root in the office, but it's right above the kitchen.
And so all day there's like, you know, kitchen noise and all sorts of things.
And I turns out. I didn't know how sensitive to noise I was in that way.
And I don't want to be like, having headphones on all day.
So we tried it for about six weeks, both hated it for different reasons and switched back.
But that was just what it was. And so it was actually a really, good process for us looking at where we are in this season of our life versus where we were 15 years ago when we moved into this house. to really reassess what works for us, what doesn't work for us, and really claim that and stop experimenting with stuff that we know that works and find other things to experiment with.
Good advice. Yeah, no, I mean, we do a lot without thinking about it and looking at our everyday processes can be important.
We're going to take one more quick ad break and I'll be back with more from Charlie Gilkey.
Hey listeners, today's tip is powered by National University.
You know my goal is to help you make the most of your day without sacrificing work or family time.
That's why I'm so happy to introduce an institution that shares the same values.
If you are thinking about going back to school, you're probably wondering how to fit it all in.
National's flexible online formats, four and eight-week courses, and monthly class starts help you begin your degree sooner, finish faster and do it all on your own schedule.
So you have more options for managing work, family and school.
With over 150 degrees, credentials, and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals.
Learn more today at nu.edu. This Labor Day, say goodbye to spills, stains, and overpriced furniture with WashableSofas.com featuring Anabay, the only machine washable sofa inside and out. where designer quality meets budget-friendly pricing.
Sofa start at just $699, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space.
Anabase pet-friendly, stain-resistant, and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high-performance fabric built for real life.
You'll love the cloud-like comfort of hypoallergenic high-resilience foam that never needs fluffing. and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time.
With modular pieces, you can rearrange anytime.
It's a sofa that adapts to your life. We'll be right back. not in love, send it back for a full refund.
No return shipping, no restocking fees, every penny back.
Shop now at washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.
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Eastern, 11 Pacific, only on CBS. Well, I am back talking with Charlie Gilkey, who is the owner of Productive Flourishing and the author of the book Team Habits and also Start Finishing.
So Charlie, I always ask my guests, what is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
So... My view at this point, having done this work so long, is that part of what we mistake in personal productivity is how much it's around action and doing versus how much it really is about being and feeling.
Right. And so to a T, what I will do to... make my days go from great to awesome is really used.
Well, part of it is using what I call the five projects rule, which is no more than five active projects per time horizon.
Which normalizes the fact that if I have four or five meetings in that day, from a work perspective, that's all I'm going to do.
Period. And why that takes it to awesome is because it removes that additional anxiety and overwhelm and sort of thinking about everything else.
And I can just enjoy. being and doing the work at hand and not thinking like, Oh, I got to do something else or something else.
No, no, no, no. Just be where you are and enjoy being, what you have created and what you're co-creating with others right and so that always pushes it that way so it's just always normalizing like okay What's essential for today?
How do I want to be? How do I want to feel?
And what else can I let go of so that I can center in that moment?
I think we spend a lot of time and waste a lot of time thinking we should be doing something else.
I mean, you're doing what you're doing regardless.
That's one of the problems of too long to-do lists, right?
Like, you know, people are not going to do everything on it, but there was no point in putting it on the to-do list and then not doing it.
Precisely. And that's where like, going back to what I said about the to do list, get real folks, you're only going to do three to five things.
And if you're in a situation like what I was just talking about, we're like, The things are actually on your schedule.
I either meetings or all those different types of things that is work.
Let's get out of this idea that like, I know I need to get out of this meeting so I can get back to the real work so that you don't have this dual streak of this reality, this, this sort of delusion that you started the day with a full blank set of time.
And you didn't do all the things that you said you could do in that amount of time.
You never had that amount of time. Like most of the time when I'm coming in, especially in a team context, I'll level set and I'll say the reality is From the very start, until you prove me wrong, I'm assuming that about 65% of your time is just filled up with routine stuff. and meetings and all sorts of other stuff.
And it's probably higher than that. So anything we talk about, has to be what goes into that 35% that remains, but let's actually start there and let's get out of this idea that we have a blank slate of time to work with because we don't.
So yeah, you're only going to do three to five things.
And if you're in a bunch of meetings, you're taking your kids to school, you got to do a PTA conference, you're caretaking.
Those are things. Those are projects. claim them and just be real about what you're going to do and do the best you can to let go of the rest and don't fall into the pattern of, of comparing your actual life to the manicured life that you see on social media.
Right. Everyone on social media is showing you the sanitized version of their life, even if they're telling you that it's the real thing.
It's not. Right. You don't know what they did.
You don't know everything like that. Just watch your own lane.
Honor your actual commitments. honor your actual capacity and do the best you can with a discretionary.
Absolutely. Yeah. One thing I was, especially with all the influencers on social media, I mean, it's professional photography, which means right there, there's somebody else like.
You know, this beautiful scene of their family, there's somebody else there.
You know, so keep that in mind. You know, that's the first thing to realize.
So Charlie, what are you looking forward to right now?
It's going to sound really basic, but just, I've been focusing more over the last three, four quarters, just on writing.
Like I've got some books that I want to get out.
And so. just getting those next, you know, four at this point books out over the next few years.
Um, and sticking to the knitting in that way.
I'm in the season of my career where I've looked at a lot of the distractions and performances that I don't want to do anymore.
And just really getting excited about, you know, writing more great books and doing more of the, you know, advising and teaching with clients.
Pretty basic on that front. On the life front, my wife and I do a lot of road trips and a lot of motorcycle riding.
And so like, I think... Next year we may be able to do a long Alaska trip.
Right. Um, yeah, but it's, you know, six to seven weeks figuring out how we're going to do it in that amount of time.
Those are the types of things that I really look forward to on that side.
So, you know, at this point, it's kind of like the slow burn long adventures are really where it's at for me.
Absolutely. Charlie, where can people find you?
All roads lead to ProductiveFlourishing.com.
So if you're interested in whether it's personal productivity, teamwork, or leadership, go to ProductiveFlourishing.com and you'll see what we have there available.
Sounds great. Well, Charlie, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback about this or any other episode You can always reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com.
And in the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening.
And here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at LauraVanderkam.com.
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