Most small business owners only think about insurance after something gets wrong.
Don't be that person.
With Next Insurance, you get fast, affordable coverage in minutes.
No calls, no waiting, and no nonsense.
You know you want to start a business.
What you may not know is how to make it a reality.
Just visit GoDaddy.com to get started.
That's GoDaddy.com.
Premium features require paid subscription.
See terms on site.
Okay, imagine this situation.
You're in a room with Stevie Wonder and he is about to buy thousands of dollars worth of audio equipment from you.
You think you've got the deal.
But what if, in trying to make the sale, you lose his trust in the process and it costs you not just the sale but the chance of ever working with him again?
That is exactly what happened to today's guest.
But what he learned from that moment of failure became the foundation of an entirely new way to negotiate.
Today's guest is Derek Chevalier, executive VP of Harrison Chevalier, bestselling author of Evolve or Be Slaughtered, and one of the most compelling thinkers I have ever met on what it means to negotiate with mastery in the 21st century.
In the first part of our conversation, Derek takes us on a journey from studying law and theater to training under the legendary Dr Chester Karras, to the painful moment that changed everything a failed negotiation with Stevie Wonder that forced him to redefine what excellence really means.
So if you've ever felt the pressure to pretend you know more than you do, or struggled with the confidence to show up as a true authentic expert, this episode is going to speak directly to you.
For me Derek, one of the things that makes your career and your experience and expertise so fascinating is how varied it is.
Because you've been in so many different industries and you've learned from some of the greatest.
And then you've evolved your own approach to work with your own clients.
Especially think about theater and speech influencing your approach.
So, when you think about this incredible multidisciplinary background that you've had, How do you think that informs the way that you negotiate?
That's a great question.
Just yesterday, LinkedIn published a list of the 10 most important soft skills in business right now.
And when you think about all of those skills, I actually responded in saying they had negotiation as number 10.
But they were talking about cross-cultural collaboration.
They were talking about management.
They were talking about every one of those skills was a skill that is a derivative of negotiation.
So therein, when you think about cross-cultural collaboration, for instance, having actual interactions with people from a cross-cultural basis who are traveling and working in every state in the United States Canada Mexico, Europe and interacting with different people, well then, certainly that's going to inform your ability to relate to people across cultures and geographies and to understand effective communication.
So I think everything on that list was a derivative of negotiation.
So of course, sometimes negotiation is acting.
I mean, sometimes we're not telling everything we know to everybody.
Mostly we're not.
And effective communication, the use of voice, body language, all of those things now are recognized as important pinnacles in the negotiation process.
So I certainly think about the fact that a lot of people only think about negotiation in its transactional format, when in fact every human interaction Is some element of negotiation.
Incredible.
Listeners, you see why I was so excited about having Derek on the show?
This is great.
This is great.
And I think this sets us up well for a story with a character that I think we all know and love.
Stevie Wonder.
Can you tell us this?
Well, briefly, I'll say this.
So one of my jobs.
I worked in high-end audio and visual sales in Hollywood California, on La Brea and Sunset.
This was one of the first electronic superstores in America.
And it was located right in front of A&M Records.
So we had every kind of audio store there actors, musicians that would run over and and get the, because it was digital technology available to them for the first time.
So as salespeople, we would pick up clients, work with them and they were pretty exclusive.
Well, Stevie wonder was uh, working with someone who decided to leave the business and generally, when that person would leave, they would decide who would take over that that relationship.
So he introduced me to stevie wonder and i put out my hand and quickly shook his and i pulled my hand back and he pulled my hand back into his right and he felt my hand very deliberately.
And then we went back into a private sound room that had about 70 pairs of speakers and an entire wall of equipment.
So i went over and i started making adjustments and stevie said may, i walked up to this wall of equipment and in literally three minutes he knew that board.
He knew everything on that board better than i did and was actually manipulating um, The board.
So he said, I need some reference speakers for my studio.
I'm working on an album.
And I said, great.
Now, I was new to audio sales and I wanted to do that because you could make a lot of money doing that.
So I know that much about sound at the time, but I did know how to read the codes on the speakers first.
That told you how much money you were making.
So Stevie said, yeah, let me get these reference speakers.
So we listened to four or five speakers and Stevie said, yeah, that's the speaker.
That's it.
And I said, oh, yeah.
And then I looked on and I saw there wasn't much money.
And I said, oh, Mr. Wonder, you don't want this speaker.
And he said, why not?
I said, fine.
I look at the speaker, and I feel it, and I see, oh, there's a hole in the back of the speaker.
And I said, well, Mr. Warner, this speaker has a hole in the back of it.
We have some other speakers that are better.
So we listened to, and as we go up the line, more expensive speakers.
So we listened to one.
He said, no, that is it.
That is it.
I want two pairs.
Give me three pairs of those speakers, and I'm dancing inside, right?
And so just he said, yeah, let's go.
I'll get three pairs.
But before he did, he said, wait, he said, I want to take a look at the speaker.
So he went back and he started looking at the speaker with his hands.
He's feeling.
And then finally he said, Derek, there is a hole in the back of the speaker.
I said, well, Mr. Wonder, the holes in a different place.
He said, really?
And I said, oh, yeah.
He said, well, thank you.
And then he said, you know, I'm not going to buy the speakers right now.
I'll come back.
So he left.
When he came back about a week later, he talked to the manager and. did not want to speak to me.
He wanted to speak to somebody who was an expert in their field, right?
And I would watch him walk in and out of the store buying tens of thousands of dollars of equipment.
And every time he walked in and out I realized that that happened because I was not competent in my job.
And I was trying to bamboozle one of the greatest musicians on earth.
Fast forward about 12 years later, I was on a plane in first class.
And in front of me was Stevie Wonder with his family and his bodyguards.
And it was his birthday.
So the airline person said, hey, we're going to sing happy birthday to Stevie Wonder.
So they got on the monitor, and we all sang, you know, happy birthday to you.
And the whole time, all I could think about is, that's Stevie Wonder.
I'm sitting two seats behind.
I got to say something.
So after they sang happy birthday, I inched over, and I said, and of course, his bodyguards came in.
I said, no, Mr. Wonder, I just wanted to say something to you. to you.
I said, I wanted to thank you.
He said, why?
I said, because I wouldn't be on this plane without you.
And he looked at me and smiled and he said, what do you mean?
I said, you'll never remember this, but 10, 12 years ago, you came in to buy some speakers.
And he said, Derek, Whoa.
And I said, and you didn't buy those speakers.
And I said, from that day, I promised myself I would never do anything that I was not excellent at.
I said, I later went on to learn how to build speakers, make speakers.
I can sell you speakers today.
He smiled.
And I said, but...
For that, and every time I saw you, I thought, I need to learn more and get better at what I do.
And that's the approach that I had taken.
And it's true, I would not have been on that plane except for the commitment to excellence that I got as a result of that encounter.
And I'll just add this.
My birthday's the day after his.
And I told him that.
I said, my birthday's tomorrow.
He said, give me that speaker.
And he takes the speaker and the entire plane and he starts singing happy birthday, Derek and all these people.
And they're wondering, well, who is that guy?
Well, I still feel happy now thinking about it.
Wow.
That would be excellent.
Yeah.
Hey Derek, give me one second.
I want to talk to you, the listener.
Yes, yes, yes, you.
If you've ever left a conversation thinking I should have said this or I wasn't ready for that, then you already know confidence isn't something you fake.
It's something that you build.
And that's what we're doing here today.
With Derek's evolved framework, we're not just learning tactics.
We're building the kind of mastery that lets you respond in the moment with clarity and control.
So, if this is speaking to you, just take two seconds, only two seconds, and share this episode with a friend who needs it.
Let's grow in this movement of mindful modern negotiators.
Most small business owners don't want to think about what happens when something goes wrong.
A client slips or a shipment disappears and you can lose thousands overnight.
That's why I like Next Insurance.
They make business insurance as easy as ordering lunch online.
Answer a few quick questions, Next figures out what you need, and just like that, you're covered.
No phone calls, no headaches, no BS.
Next is built for builders contractors consultants shops restaurants, anyone running a small business.
You'll get coverage in minutes, not just a quote.
And you'll get an instant certificate of insurance, so you don't have to wait to start a job or close a deal.
And when something does go wrong, claims are resolved fast so you can get back to work.
Policies start as low as $29 a month.
Don't wait for a problem to remind you you're covered.
Get protected in minutes at nextinsurance.com.
That's N-E-X-T insurance.com.
Gather.
That is so powerful.
I have chills too, man.
That's such a great story.
That is such a great story.
And there's so much to it, right?
Because sometimes, especially when we're in the business world, we get so caught up in the transaction.
We get that dealmaker's bias.
And then we start to lose sight of our ethics and morals and just focus on the numbers.
You know, and we just start making these decisions and justifying it to ourselves in the moment saying okay, it's all about the money.
But then trying to reverse engineer an ethical or rational approach for why we're steering in this direction.
And it's such a simple lesson about the competence and being excellent, but competence breeds confidence.
And a lot of times, the reason why we don't feel confident is because we haven't taken the time to put in the work to learn as well as we need to to perform.
So I know, for me, when I think about it is like I get.
Whenever I feel nervous or something, I just say OK, that means I need to get better.
That means I need to prepare.
I'm going to outwork the fear so I can feel confident and competent in this interaction.
I love outwork the fear.
I love it.
We use something in evolved negotiation called Ixir, and it's the process for learning anything that that we developed in part as a result of that.
So we need to take information, which is data, and raise that to a level of knowledge.
What level of knowledge?
Well, two plus two is four.
You don't have to think about it.
When you can take information to a level of knowledge that you can recall immediately and effortlessly.
So you have information and knowledge.
Knowledge to skill, which comes through practice, skill to expertise.
That's the ability to teach skills to other people in a way they can understand them.
Skills to expertise, expertise to action, action to result.
So capital I-K-S-E-A-R, ICSEAR.
That's the process that we use to introduce ourselves to a set of data and then raise that to a level of expertise that is actionable and quantifiable.
And that's certainly a lesson that I learned from Stevie and from that encounter.
And there are many others, but that one will forever be one of my favorites.
This.
This is powerful because, you know now, we say that we are in the information age, but nobody says that we are in the age of wisdom.
Right.
We're not in the age of true understanding or mastery.
And I think a lot of times we mistake information for deep understanding, you know, because at this point we are in a world where we have access to all of the world's knowledge at our fingertips at all times.
And it just keeps getting faster and, And then we overestimate our ability to actually utilize that in a meaningful sense.
And I realize now, using this framework, we're skipping all of these steps because most people get the information and stop.
They don't transform that into knowledge, and then to skill, and then to expertise, and then to action, and then to the results.
They just want to Google something and then get the results.
But they're missing all of these steps.
Yes.
And so that's that's an important part.
And you bring up this idea of information in the book Evolve or Be Slaughtered.
I talk about the idea that in the universal definition of information is data.
All information is data.
And of course, I've asked thousands of people, what is information?
People tell you it's knowledge.
Well, all information is not knowledge.
There's a lot of information that is not knowledge.
It's not power.
All information is not power.
Some information is power and some information is knowledge, but all information is data.
Information data is inanimate, doesn't think, doesn't feel, doesn't talk, doesn't care.
So we've got to raise and decipher that information to a level of understanding, knowledge that we can transform into actionable steps and into actionable interactions with other people.
Of course, it's going to impact our communication styles and our sensitivity to other people.
Without that, we are acting on an inanimate resource data.
And so one of the things that we'll do sometimes is I'll go into a room and I will begin to write ones and O's on the board.
Well, if there's an engineer in the room, they look at that and they say, that's binary code.
So I'll keep writing ones and O's, ones and O's.
And I said, OK, so, you know, it's binary code.
I said, OK, I want you to hum this tune for me.
Look at me and say, what do you mean?
And I said, well, you know, it's binary code, but but but you can't hum the tune.
He said, what do you mean?
I said, well, what is on a CD CD? binary code.
When you put that CD into a CD player, the CD player has the ability to read that binary code translated into notes, music and a melody, and we hear the end product right.
So knowledge and understanding basic skill allows us to take that data and then To be like water, as Bruce Lee says, and to understand how to communicate and use it in an effective way.
Incredible.
And listen, man, you took it there.
You took it there.
Let's get Zen with this Bruce Lee quote.
Because one of the things that I recognize, too especially it's becoming clearer when you look at this framework for evolved negotiation and truly understanding on a deep level.
When people are negotiating, you have to be like water.
You have to be able to flow.
And in order to do that, you have to be able to focus.
Because when you think about the psychology of flow, one of the things that happens is that nothing else matters.
You're kind of like in the zone.
We will call it in the zone in sports.
But when the players are in the zone, they're not really thinking.
They're just responding and flowing, right?
And so when we think about this, we have to have intimate understanding and achieving that mastery right in our negotiation skills, but also incredible amounts of competence to get confidence on the subject matter.
Because if we don't take the time to put these into action and actually hone our skills, then we are actually thinking about different negotiation tactics at the forefront of our brain.
Okay, I'm going to use anchoring.
I'm going to use bracketing here.
I'm going to ask this question.
And we might be able to execute it, but it doesn't happen with fluidity.
And then the same thing happens when it comes to the actual content that we're discussing.
Because when we're talking about the content too, if I have to like actively think about this material, I'm out of flow, right.
And so we have to understand this at such a depth that we can go in there and respond just organically.
And that takes a lot of work to get there with our negotiation skills.
It takes a lot of work to get there with our level of competence.
And the reality is that a lot of times we can't be like water because we're too busy thinking about too many things.
It's too much cognitive load.
And our brain is under too much duress in that moment to really respond fluidity.
And it's because that work that we're trying to do in the moment should have been done days weeks, months and even years in advance.
Amen.
Amen.
Absolutely.
You just spoke it.
Now one of the things that comes up for me is that for a lot of people, I think, the disconnect happens because they're seeking balance in their life and professional and personal lives.
So you talk to many people and they say, yeah, I'm looking for balance.
Well, Evolve talks about the idea that balance is impossible in life, because if you, for instance, put yourself and your wife, or yourself or one of your kids on the other end of a teeter-totter, your entire attention would be focused on maintaining that balance.
You can't do anything else.
Because any move one way or another and you're out of balance, right?
Balance can only be achieved when we have control over all of the elements.
So what we teach is to seek harmony in life.
Now, talk about a great story.
There's a story in which a musician is playing the piano.
He's playing with Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock.
He's playing with Miles Davis.
He's 17 years old.
And during a concert, he hit a wrong note, a wrong chord.
And he said it was completely wrong.
And he said, oh my God, I'm playing with Miles Davis.
Miles Davis in that signature had his hat down and he said he turned around and put his glasses down and looked over at Herbie Hancock.
You know that look.
And Herbie said, my heart almost went to my feet.
And he said Miles turned around, put his glasses back up, put the trumpet to his mouth and played a chord that brought his mistake into perfect harmony and resolved that issue.
That's harmony.
That's the ability to play a chord in the midst of discord that brings it together.
Because we're not always going to be able to handle everything, and everything's not going to always be perfect.
But with the knowledge that you're talking about, the experience, the study, the time that we put in, the result is we are able to flow in a moment.
We are able to take action.
That listen to the mistake or the miscalculation and then bring something creative that resolves it.
And then create harmony, which is not the absence of discord, but is the coordination of discord into the harmonic of life.
Every musician in your audience is going to know that because you you play a specific chord.
You can change a seventh, a third, a fifth or whatever it is.
And you still have a harmonic frame.
So it's the ability to flow, as you said.
And that requires that we put some attention, that ix here.
We need the knowledge and the skill and the expertise together.
This is incredible because I want to just recap that too.
It's not the absence of discord.
It's the coordination of discord.
And every great negotiator knows that there's no such thing as a perfect negotiation.
It's going to be messy.
There are going to be surprises.
And we can't always articulate everything perfectly.
There are going to be mistakes.
But again, the goal is to be effective and drive towards the outcome.
And I don't need to be perfect in order to do that.
The circumstances don't need to be perfect in order to do that.
And so if you can just have confidence in your skill, you recognize that the harmony comes from inside of yourself.
There's going to be chaos.
And then you treat it like jazz.
It's like, I'm going to find a way to make this work.
And it might not be what I expected, but I know it can work.
Hey listen, I'm not going to let you go without letting the listeners know about where they can get in touch with you and how they can get a hold of your resources too.
Well, great.
Well, the first thing is we certainly would encourage folks to to check out and buy the book Evolve or Be Slaughtered Negotiation for the 21st Century.
It's a number one bestseller on Amazon.
So pick that up.
You can also go to our Web site, which is wwwh-ccom, or just go to any website browser and stick in my name.
But I will say this we do offer a no cost, no BS, no obligation 30 minute consultation to just help people with specific issues or answer questions or get input.
And so I'd encourage people to do that as well.
Incredible.
Derek, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Congratulations, you've just joined an elite club.
By listening to a full episode, you're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team.
So welcome aboard.
What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show.
The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better.
Your relationships will improve, your career will soar and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations.
Again, thank you for joining the team.
We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode.
I'll catch you later.
