We have a special episode for you today.
But before that, it occurs to me, we're some episodes into the season and I want to know what you're thinking.
Whose stories have stuck with you?
Have you learned anything about change?
Did the brain expert in episode three teach you something about your own life?
Also, is this making you think about a time you changed or a story about how you did it?
I want you to call me and tell me.
And maybe we'll even have a feedback episode about how we're all doing with this.
You can absolutely remain anonymous or not.
Whatever you want, just tell me.
But call and talk to me.
The number is 401-484-0590.
You'll also find it in the show notes.
That's 401-484, and you can leave a message at the beep, etc.
You can also email loveletters at boston.com.
Also I'm looking for letters for our advice column about friendship dating committing uncommitting, single life and all of the things.
You can send your anonymous question to loveletters at bostoncom or find our anonymous form at bostoncom slash loveletters.
Okay, now that the business is out of the way.
Our last episode about video games helping us change taught me a lot.
It changed my perception of Animal Crossing people.
You know who I'm talking about.
These are the people who spent lockdown playing the Sims game, Animal Crossing.
They moved themselves around a fictional, simulated world as a little avatar.
My friend Rachel used to send me Animal Crossing screenshots which were a little version of her and a little version of me, a tiny me she had created.
And they would be sitting at an animated movie theater.
This was all in a world that was just on her screen.
It was adorable and weird all at the same time.
During our work on the gaming episode, I interviewed an expert who studies video games and how they might help us manage our relationships.
But there was so much to say in that episode that I couldn't fit this expert in.
But I wanted to share the interview with you because I got so much out of talking to her.
Also, this expert is creating a game that might help us learn how to change to be better at relationships.
So as a bonus today, meet a person who thinks a lot about games and feelings.
My name is Celeste San Giorgio.
I'm a clinical psychologist.
I am 34 years old, and I live in Staten Island, New York, and I work remotely in Rochester.
And I'm research faculty at Rochester Institute of Technology, and I focus on how people's beliefs about themselves in different relationships translate into their behaviors within those relationships.
And my specific research focuses is in creating games to teach people healthy relationship skills.
For those of us who left gaming like after Nintendo 1.0, like me, how have games changed?
Well, in some ways they stayed the same.
In some ways they've changed quite a bit.
Co-op games were popular back in the day with Super Nintendos like Donkey Kong.
Different Mario games had different components where you can play with someone else.
Those are having like a renaissance now where there's games that two people can play together.
There's been a uptick in the sophistication of graphics, things like that.
There's been a lot of research into accessibility mechanics, so making it more intuitive to figure out how to move in a game space, to figure out where the next part of the level is.
So the games are more communicative, and that makes them easier to play.
What would you say if I asked you what kind of games deal with empathy?
Like, are there games that are inherently empathetic?
There's been a big push in games to show different perspectives.
And because games are especially narrative.
Games move you through a character's understanding and different experiences that have increased their understanding.
A lot of the narrative games drive empathetic experiences.
So for example, Uncharted is one of my favorite series.
You ever wonder, like, different choices, how we might have ended up?
No.
I like the hand we've been dealt.
It moves through the main character's experiences with masculinity and him developing his sense of self over the different relationships he has, how he makes meaning in the world.
It's literally unbelievable.
It's a story of my life, I guess.
So that can drive empathy.
You've probably heard of Last of Us, too.
For those who don't know, The Last of Us is a narrative game about life after a pandemic that became a very popular HBO TV show starring Pedro Pascal.
Season two starts soon.
Can you talk to me about the evolution of narrative games and what it means to say that for the non-gamers out there?
Well, a narrative game is a game that has a long-form story.
The Legend of Zelda, linked to the past, I think was the first one that had a narrative that moved forward in each kind of activity right.
So previously with the Super Mario games, there was a very loose narrative, whereas in these new narrative games like Legend of Zelda, there was different components, plot twists, things like that that you'd have in like a longer form game.
And then they increased in sophistication, I would say, in like the early 2000s.
So let's talk about The Last of Us, because I think that might be one of the most famous narrative games out there.
I watched... the show and then was exposed to the game.
And I was shocked at how much the show borrowed from the game.
That this wasn't building 40,000 layers from a two-dimensional game in terms of its story.
That, in fact, some of the most empathetic moments actually came right out of the script for that game.
Is that everything you hoped for?
Is that everything you hoped for?
Jury's still out.
Jury's still out.
Can't deny that view.
The actual stakes are all emotional.
Yeah.
So I have played all of the last of those games.
They're pretty intensely, I'd say upsetting, very sad.
They really walk the player through this world and the different components of it.
That would change if a cataclysm of the scale of a zombie apocalypse happened.
I think that there was a point where Games were being called empathy machines, right?
Because they have this capacity, to more than any other type of media, evoke the emotions of the scene that they're trying to set, because the player is controlling a character in an environment.
And so you're exploring that environment as both the character experiencing things and as the player.
So with Last of Us, for example, you're given all of these vignettes, all of these scenes where there will be different points of interest in a room and you'll walk through it and discover those things.
You'll find notes that people left, you'll put together the pieces and that evokes a realization in the player of what's happening.
So I'm impressed that they were able to approximate that.
We're doing this whole next season about change.
And I'm wondering if you think playing a game that forces empathy, that challenges you to think about feelings and what you might do in certain situations, or to pay attention to a room you know, like in The Last of Us, where you go to different corners and hear different observations.
Do you think playing a game can change us and rewire us to be different or better people?
This is such a great time to ask me this question, because I just attended a conference specifically on video games, digital games, tabletop games and then how they can bring about change.
And the topic of this specific year in Games for Change was measuring impact.
So I just attended a whole bunch of lectures on whether or not games create impact.
And it turns out that there's a struggle in games affecting people's attitudes, changing their beliefs about the world around them.
There's more evidence that games impact people's behaviors.
So if you're, for example, showing a coping skill, like there's a game called Celeste that walks people through deep breathing, that might be something that you can make more familiar and more accessible so that then that person who is exposed to that in the game environment, it occurs to them to use in their daily life and they can access it later.
I want to dig into that just a little bit, the idea of beliefs, changing their beliefs versus their behavior.
Is that fair to say, like maybe it can't make them change their political beliefs about maybe, gun control?
I'm trying to think of something that's like larger, but...
If you are advising your character to leave a bad significant other in a game, could it make you have different critical thinking skills in your own life?
I think that's the difficulty, right?
How do you measure that?
How do you actually affect that in a person?
We're actually designing a game out of the lab to specifically target those types of behaviors.
We're designing a dating sim, which is short for a dating simulator game.
As journalists would say, Celeste was bearing the lead here.
Forget The Last of Us for a second.
Celeste herself is a psychologist working on a dating sim kind of game to help us change.
I must know everything.
Maybe she'll fix us all with her game.
I ask her for details.
We just submitted a grant for this.
The format of the game is a dating sim, which is short for dating simulator.
People who are looking for a game that's about dating, beliefs and behaviors.
They'll find our game.
And our game is designed to both be fun, but teach people healthy relationship skills.
And so we've broken that down into five different components, which is people's ability to recognize their own emotions.
So how well can they notice things from the environment and notice things that are coming from themselves, and then use that to make decisions within relationships?
And then how effectively can they communicate their needs within relationships.
And who are you designing this sim with?
So I'm designing it with students in the lab, including James Walters, one of my students.
What do you hope will happen with this game?
I'm hoping that it will impact all the different constructs related to relationship healthiness, that it'll give people an ability to check in with themselves and see what their beliefs and expectations are in different relationships and then choose healthy behaviors that match what they're looking to do, that match the goals that they want for the relationships that they're trying to select into.
When we return, Celeste explains that her dating Sims game is actually horror-themed.
Because of course it is.
Love can be a horror show for sure.
Also, Celeste explains Dream Daddy, a game I have since bought.
I have a lot to say about these Dream Daddies.
More when we come back.
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We're all out of the ordinary.
Psychologist and researcher, Celeste San Giorgio, has been explaining games to me, specifically a new relationship game she's designing with a student.
The game is meant to change us and make us better about relationship choices.
Is it a narrative game or is it a... It is, and it's actually also like a mystery romance game.
So it's based a little bit on The Scream.
It's like a B-movie horror type romance game.
I love this.
It's going to be fun.
James brought that in.
He's a B-movie Scream specialist.
I love it.
Tell me about some of the Dating Sims thematic games that are out there.
When someone says to you what Dating Sims games should I play to improve my brain, as opposed to not?
What would you say right now?
There's such a wide spectrum.
Again, I think it depends on what you're looking for.
If you're looking to just the youth call it like head empty time.
I think there's quite a few there.
If you're looking to build your insight and healthiness and the behaviors you choose in relationships.
I would say engaging with a lot of them and looking for patterns across the type of people that you tend to romance in the dating sims.
Dating sims are also made so that you can replay them and see how the plot would change based on which romance option you choose.
So looking at what information you gained and what information you didn't gain through the different relationship pathways.
But let's see, if I was going to recommend specific games...
So otome games are Japanese games that are often translated from Japanese into English.
Cupid Parasite is my favorite one of those.
It's very fun, too, because it has some actual relationship psych in it.
It's ancient relationship psych.
I think it's from the mid-1900s, but it is still there.
So with Cupid Parasite, what does it ask you to do?
There's a few different types of dating sims and otome games, a few different styles in the way that they're formed.
In most otome games, and Cupid Parasite is the same, you start as a person.
You're embodying a character moving through.
It's less of someone you project onto, less of a blank slate character, and more you are introduced to this person and you help them move through their romantic choices.
And so in Cupid Parasite, you are Cupid, the Greek god, and you're proving that humans can form romantic relationships themselves.
So you work in a matchmaking company and you're learning about the different approaches to matchmaking.
And then this person is unlucky in love.
So you're also forming her love connections and stuff.
It's fun.
So you're helping others.
Okay, I want to just dig into your game.
I know this is probably proprietary and I don't want to ruin anything, but can you give me one example of something a character in your game might confront and have to cope with or deal with or make choices about?
We are including a bunch of different mechanics that are common across video games and therapy.
We have an actual therapy scene and recurring therapist characters.
In the beginning, a player gets taught coping skills for tuning into their own emotions and also regulating how intense they feel fear.
Specifically,
And so in these interactions with other characters, if the main character is experiencing a high level of fear, they can regulate themselves and then more accurately use their emotion skills to tune into their emotions.
And then they can actually more effectively communicate with the person that they're on a date with.
And effectively communicating on a date opens up new dialogue options.
It opens up clues that they can use to solve the mystery of who's murdering people on campus, and it also increases their intimacy with the other characters.
It's teaching coping skills, it's demonstrating how they're effective, and then it's also showing how tuning into your own emotions can build relationships.
How people engage with media that they use for fun is not necessarily how they engage in their daily lives.
You've probably come across this also with romance novels, too.
Don't yuck someone's yum is an expression.
So I think that there's plenty of people who go in and they'll see a very red flag character.
I can think of a few examples off the top of my head.
Piofore is an otome game, and the heroine of that game is in physical danger frequently and the leads will kill her if you choose a wrong choice and i'm like maybe she shouldn't be with any of these guys this is not healthy you're speaking my language now because as a romance novel reader there's like the enemies to lovers trope right and i love this trope and often these characters are doing terrible things to each other to start within reason and it's not it's not behavior i want to mirror but It does help me think critically about how they make up, how they communicate.
I actually do learn something from even in a book that would be super toxic in real life.
Exactly.
And that's such a good way to frame it.
And I guess that this really speaks to media in general that you get these extremes, these extreme situations, these extreme exaggerated versions of behaviors.
And in that kind of stage that gets set, that's where you see the skills demonstrated and that's what you can really take out of it.
And I think that the way that you're framing it too, the way that you said it, really shows that distinction between, like the attitude stuff that you can take from it and the behaviors right.
You can get the communication skills when someone's having pride versus prejudice type conversation, but you're probably not going to want to take the attitudes of that time period that it's set in.
For those who don't know, can you explain Dream Daddy?
It's actually more similar to the Otome games where you're walking into a person's life.
And so the life that you're walking into is a man who has moved into a new neighborhood with his teenage daughter, who's graduating high school.
And so you're helping him transition to having an empty nest.
So you're preparing him for that.
And then there's also a lot of daddies in this neighborhood.
So you're choosing which relationship to prioritize to build intimacy within.
And that becomes also important part of the story, that kind of he forms for himself about this life transition.
So who's helping you through that transition?
So there's a lot of things happening in that game.
It's very well made.
And he connects with other daddies.
Yeah.
And there's definitely a spectrum in healthiness and the different relationships that you choose to pursue.
So I know this is not a game designed to make us necessarily an evolved version of ourselves, but what one might learn from all the daddies.
At its best, any piece of media makes you reflect about yourself and the choices.
And even if you are choosing something more unhealthy.
So, for example, there is one of the daddies in Dream Daddies is struggling with like substance use issues.
And I don't want to spoil it for anyone who's going to play, but I am going to spoil it.
The end of his plot, the substance use daddy.
For lack of a better term, he decides to go work on himself.
And so the player can reflect on what is salient to them, what they look for in relationships, and then they get to watch that play out.
They see the healthiest kind of ending where he goes to work on himself, and then they can ask how does that feel for me?
What I really like about Dream Daddy too, is that there are all these interactive dialogue choices, which is typical of dating sims in general that you get immediate reinforcement.
So you get to see other people's, like if they like or not, what you chose as a dialogue option.
It helps you come out of your own mind and think about how people might receive what you're saying to them.
It hits right at those communication skills.
I did get this Dream Daddy game, by the way.
Interestingly, the first time when I played it, I played with my boyfriend and I made bad choices.
I wound up sleeping with a dude when I should have been caring for my fictional daughter as this daddy character.
But then I played with our producer, Christine, and I made better choices when I had her as company.
Take from that what you will.
We had an opposite problem.
We were doing fine in the game, but we could not get our character laid or even to a first date.
Oh, see, look at him.
That's another daddy.
They're all daddy.
Okay.
So like, okay.
Incredibly warm and inviting.
Vinyl records lie on the walls and patrons lounge around on well-worn couches.
Some cool tunes spin on a record player next to a little stage.
Looks about right.
Oh.
He looks too old for her.
Well, he's a daddy, remember?
Oh.
He's for us.
Oh.
OK.
It's kind of dumb.
You can actually see us play the game together on the Love Letters YouTube.
Just go to the Boston Globe's YouTube page and click on Podcasts, and it'll be right there.
Me, Christine, a PlayStation 5, and the daddies.
Thanks for learning about video games with me.
Now, let's all go touch some grass.
Love Letters is a production of the Boston Globe.
Our producer is Christina Honichu.
Our executive producer is Kristen Nelson.
This episode was produced and sound designed by Jasmine Aguilera.
Maddie Mortell is our audience engagement manager.
Special thanks to Nancy Barnes and Linda Henry.
Our music is from APM.
Remember, Love Letters is also an advice column.
Send any questions about friendship dating divorce marriage singlehood whatever, to loveletters at bostoncom.
And if you like the show, please leave us a review.
A lot of daddies I know do not look like these daddies.
I love these daddies.
Yeah.
I'm Meredith Goldstein.
Thanks for listening.
