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So, Celine, something that I have definitely realised as I've got an older is this idea that you actually really don't know what's going on with someone else, right?
I mean, you've seen like a pretty happy person, but what do I know?
I don't know if I'm happy, I have to step back and think about it.
Yeah, you've got to check in with yourself sometimes, right?
I'm not unhappy. I'm happy at this moment, having this conversation.
Yeah. I don't know what that does or doesn't say about being a general, but I can comment on the moment.
Well, even though you and I aren't sure if we're happy, there are researchers who are determined to measure how happy people are.
So, every year is part of an initiative for the United Nations.
A group of researchers release something called a World Happiness Report that ranks countries according to their happiness.
Yeah, I'm so interested to know how they went about measuring happiness, though.
For me, there's so much that goes into what that word even means.
How would you even start something like that?
So, the researchers looked at things like gross domestic product, per capita, social support, healthy life expectancy, freedom, generosity, corruption, and they also asked the participants to do some self-evaluation, too.
It's hard for me to understand whether that's measuring conditions to give someone a good shot at being happy or their actual happiness.
Yeah. What do you think's happening there?
Well, I think it's probably a little bit of both, right?
Like, those two things can feed into one another.
So, if you have a higher life expectancy, that might be an indication of a robust system of healthcare, and I assume would contribute to your happiness.
And the mere facts of being happy would also extend your life expectancy, right?
So, I think it's actually really hard to separate out those two things.
I mean, we know that research questions can be based on assumptions.
I know it's not a contest contest, but could I ask who's winning recently?
The fins of winning. The report found that Finland has been the happiest country for the past five years.
Hearing that and not knowing too much about Finland, I get this absurd vision in my head of smiling people walking around in sunshine all day.
It can't all be like that.
I don't know. I mean, why don't you just try talking to somebody who has lived in the happiest country in the world and find out what they think?
Maybe it will help us figure out what happiness really means, and whether you can even really measure it or whether you should measure it.
The mission sounds great.
Let's keep the activity going.
I'm Slyb Reshawala, and from the Ted Audio Collective, this is a special season of M.I.
Normal. Around 2012, Ilona Soyanne had been working in education in Finland, and something was off.
I was very unhappy at work.
The clear moment when I realised that I was unhappy at work, I was watching friends and I laughed.
And then I said to my partner, how was the first time I laughed this week?
And he said, what? Don't you laugh at work every day?
And I said, no, do you? He said, yeah, of course.
But I think that was really the moment I realised that something is badly wrong.
Yeah. So I started really asking myself, do I want to be happy?
So, do I be happy at work?
And who's responsible for my happiness?
Eventually, Alona ended up making a whole career out of studying happiness.
I'm a happyologist. My name is Ilona, and the first three letters ILO means joy.
So I guess I didn't have a choice.
I was doomed. I wanted to just happiness business, maybe.
First things first. What did this Finnish happyologist think about the World Happiness Report and about Finland being named the happiest country?
I think calling a country a happy country is a bit funny.
Because then the happiness is, I mean, it can be objective as well, but I think it's more of the subjective experience and these studies, I think, are real.
We would talk about the happy Finns, not happy Finland.
It's good research. But I do have some questions and hesitations about it.
One of the most important aspects is that when they do the survey, so they actually ask about satisfaction, not about happiness.
Oh, interesting. Have you had times when you're life when you feel very satisfied, but not happy?
I think I can look back and be satisfied, like, oh, you know, how it is great people in my life and how I've had great experiences.
But nevertheless, I'm feeling unhappy and sometimes I can say, why am I'm happy or sometimes I don't fully know why.
And I think that can be really tricky as well.
I think people can be very satisfied with their lives, or somewhat satisfied with their lives.
But then at the same time, does it mean that they are very, very happy?
That's another question.
I think satisfaction is more about judgment, about life or how life is.
So yeah, I think it's just a part of happiness and there are other aspects as well.
And in that way, I do think that it makes sense that things people have responded that way, because life in Finland is really good.
Well, what role does culture play in happiness?
Yeah, I think this is a very, very important thing to discuss when we talk about this happiness rankings, and then we look at the top 10, and they're all these Western countries.
And what if we had different kind of questions, what if we had different kind of measurements that went necessarily so Western-based, would we get really different looking list of the countries on top?
I always remember this happiness conference I went to, and there was a Japanese happiness researcher.
And he said that this question, how happy are you, is completely wrong?
We should ask, how happy are people around you?
Oh, interesting. Because that's how it is in these societies when it's about the collective.
Yeah. If we think in this way that we value happiness differently, wouldn't that also have impact on what we answer when people ask us, how satisfied are we, how happy are you with your life?
And many of the happiness research, happiness theories, they are based in Western research, and they are written by Western researchers.
And no matter how good they are, I think there is this bias.
So culture shapes how we think about happiness.
But it seems like systemic factors also play a role in whether or not we can attain happiness.
For most of us, there's a limit to how much we can control factors that make us happy or not happy.
Of course, it's a shared responsibility.
But it's also the responsibility of others, for example, in the workplace, to treat me nicely just like I have responsibility for others.
And then the organizations and the governments, it's really their responsibility to kind of provide this base where it's possible for people to live happy lives.
Which gets back to the happiness report.
Your happiness is probably affected by where you live, at least a little bit.
You've lived in a lot of countries outside of Finland, and you recently moved from the Netherlands to the UK.
How has the country you lived in affected your happiness?
I've been reading about migration and happiness.
And I remember reading that when we moved from less developed country to more developed country, our happiness increases.
And when we moved from more developed country to less developed country, our happiness might decrease.
And yes, life in the Netherlands is very, very high quality.
There are all these different aspects that had impact on it.
But I had a really, really, really nice life in the Netherlands.
So maybe partly it was also letting go morning.
So yes, living in the Netherlands, I didn't see poverty.
And then I went to UK and I see homeless people.
People who, you know, on so many levels, they are not doing well.
They aren't healthy. I've heard so many times parents screaming for their kids, which I didn't see in the Netherlands.
I see so much rubbish on the streets.
I see so many dark streets where there's no street lights.
And I think it's important as a happyologist to be reminded how well things are in Finland, how well things are in the Netherlands, and actually see how in many other countries things aren't so well, and how normal people are suffering as a result of wrong decisions being made.
And I think in England it's just really hit my face.
I saw all this suffering that I hadn't seen for a while, or I hadn't seen it in that way.
And I think that had a big impact on my happiness.
And of course, I mean, different areas in the UK are also different, like it depends on where you are there.
Happiness is such a broad and such a complex thing.
And it's so many different things in our lives have influence on it, our genes, you know, the environment, what kind of cards we're caught in life.
It's really cruel to say to individuals that it's your own responsibility.
And if you're not happy, you haven't worked hard enough, you failed.
That's something that really needs to start changing as well.
I want to live in a world where we all say, hey, I am responsible for my happiness, but so are you.
And so is the society where I live in.
I love the idea that happiness is a shared responsibility.
And like Ilona mentioned, if we live in a culture where happiness is treated as just a personal pursuit, not feeling happy could then feel like a personal failure, rather than an indicator of some systemic problems.
And a society that makes sure its people's needs are met can set up the conditions for happiness.
I keep thinking about what Bowdoin and I talked about, how we figure out personally whether or not we're happy.
Okay, you don't fully agree with how those researchers measured happiness.
So how do you measure happiness in your research?
I'm a qualitative researcher, so I don't measure.
I try to understand. So what I did in my PhD study, I didn't define happiness.
I actually really wanted to understand how other people define it.
So I told them that they're the experts of their own happiness and well, they were way they defined their happiness.
That's fine with me. She asked participants to take a picture.
Whenever they experience momentary happiness during their work day.
A happy moment is just that, an instant of goodness.
For example, having lunch outside or having a nice walk to work when they came up with the new ideas for work.
There were moments when they realized how much they had impact on their own work or how much freedom they had.
What topic that kept coming up?
Other people. Whether it was a colleague, they had a good chat or a nice lunch together or they achieved something together, a student or a customer they helped.
Because I know that for me other people are very important source for happiness.
And I know from all these research I've read that that's one of the kind of clearest happiness boosters or happiness indicators.
The good relationships and other people in our lives.
That's like a really, really important part of our happiness.
Okay, so that gets us back to that.
Japanese researcher was indicating other people are involved in your happiness and can be a major part of you being happy.
And there's other things too.
They did talk about authenticity.
Oh, interesting. Where they felt that they were fully themselves.
And they were seen by others as themselves.
That's one of the important aspects of happiness.
That it needs to be authentic otherwise it isn't that really happiness.
Then they also talked about happiness as a mood.
That was a bit harder. So it was something that was kind of more longer lasting.
It was sometimes quite hard to actually pinpoint what caused it.
A happy mood can come from having a really good streak at work for a period of time.
Maybe you do really well on a project.
And maybe that gets you love from your co-workers and recognition.
A few months later, it all leads to a promotion and a raise.
You're on a roll. These are the three things that I kind of include into my definition of happiness.
Happy moments. Happiness as a mood and a happy life.
A happy life. I've always wondered how much work plays into that.
Does it matter how meaningful our work is to us?
That was one aspect that also came up in my research that I think sometimes we just...
Even if our work is meaningful, we don't see it.
We don't value it. For most of the jobs in the world can't be meaningful in a way or another.
But then sometimes I'm also a bit concerned that if happiness is now the sign of success, I don't want us to turn meaning or meaningfulness into one of those goals as well.
But then we're all competing.
Who is more meaningful and whose work or life is more meaningful than others?
So we should be careful with that as well.
I wonder about that a lot actually.
If there's times when I get focused on happiness and maybe comfort, and that pulls me away from doing something hard and good, and then other times I wonder if pursuing happiness itself can make me less satisfied.
Like if focusing too much on whether or not I'm happy makes me question things that kind of don't need to be questioned for me to feel happy.
You're not the only one thinking that way for sure.
There are other researchers and philosophers who think the same way that maybe the goal in life is...
I mean we shouldn't just focus on getting happier.
Maybe other things could be like how could I have a meaningful life?
That kind of refers to not just happy and comfort, but all the other aspects of life that also make our life feel meaningful, give purpose to our life, can be hard and we learn from them.
And those in the end make us happy.
But not when we try to achieve it, because we think if I do this then I will be happy in future.
But then we're never happy in future.
We can only be happy right now.
I love that shift from wondering what makes us happy to what gives us meaning.
And of course it made me wonder about my own happiness.
More on that after the break.
With all this new learning about happiness, I kind of wanted to evaluate my own.
So I did Ilona's photo exercise.
I went through your activity of trying to look for happy pictures during my day.
Could I share those pictures with you?
Yes please. And let me know if that link works for you.
Happy collection. There you go.
I don't want to interpret them.
I want you to tell me what's happening there.
Okay so I'll tell you what's happening in this photo.
So during the day I'm bouncing back and forth between work and home life right, because I'm basically within a hundred feet of my house the entire day.
So the first photo you're seeing is a gigantic flower that's in my backyard.
But most mornings when I walk out, I see a hummingbird come to that flower.
And it always chills me out.
It's very much like what a Disney princess walks out like birds surrounded.
Like that's what I see often early of the day.
Yes. You know we have so much beauty in our lives.
If we, you know, have time to stop and see it.
The other picture is by friend John Law, who we collaborate on projects all the time.
And he came over for a meeting and he's on the back porch.
The kids are there. They're watching a video that the kids did.
We were really there to watch a video that me and John Law had worked on together.
But this friend of mine is on the porch.
The porch has become this place where so many good parts of my life come together.
We'll come and hang out on the porch.
We'll work on the porch.
These are all like kind of adjustments really that started during the pandemic of like not leaving the house very much.
And then the last picture is a little tiny drum kit that's next to my work desk.
And I can kind of just turn and drum a little.
I'm a beginning drummer so it's like, you know, not super talented.
But but I entertain myself.
So those are the things I stepped.
Oh wow. These are really amazing pictures.
And I love the stories you shape me.
Seeing this really makes me happy.
You as a person you have so many different aspects of you.
And so many different roles and identities, you know.
And yeah, it's great that you've been able to create them.
And they are really great pictures.
Thank you for sharing. And I was surprised at how personal the photos are and how you're now the only person outside of my family that would know that these are the things.
Like I've talked about all these things with some of my closest friends, even as the things that made me happy during the day.
When you see a group of photos like this, like a part of my brain is like, oh, did I pass the happy test?
Am I happy? Like it's weird that my brain is doing that.
We are not the first one who is asking.
And I don't walk around thinking, oh, that's a happy person.
Oh, that's a very unhappy person.
There's no way I'm a person to judge anyone else's happiness.
But what I see, I'm very glad that you have these aspects in your life that bring you happiness.
So I attempted to write a very quick quiz.
Could I give you by five question quiz of happiness?
Okay. Have you seen a bird or a fish today?
Not yet the living one, but I went to North Gallery.
And there was a beautiful exhibition about gardens.
And there was a bird. Oh, I love that answer.
I'll take that. Did you make someone laugh or did someone make you laugh?
Yes, my husband. I think they went both ways.
Did you move your body around?
Yes, I did walk. Did you get out of your house?
That kind of answers that.
Yes, I was walking by the sea.
Did you make yourself something nice to eat or drink today?
Yeah, I didn't make it, but I bought my favorite chocolate mousse.
Well, thank you so much.
Yeah, and I really love to your questions.
I think you know quite a lot about happiness already being able to ask those questions.
Thank you. And if they have to say no to all of them, maybe it's time to think what could they add or what they could change in their lives to increase their happiness a bit.
And I'm so glad I was able to answer yes to most of them.
Basically a five out of five.
I mean, you didn't make the mousse, but the fact that you ate a chocolate mousse, that gets you a five out of five.
You're going to get credit.
And I have to tell you that if your lactose in the room comes to Finland, this is heaven.
Everything is lactose free.
You just told me something that makes me confident that I would be incredibly happy in what's measured as the happiest country in the world.
It was interesting. I went into that conversation with Ilona a little afraid that measuring happiness might make me self-conscious.
That I could even get in the way of my happiness.
But taking some pictures of things that may be happy actually may be feel a bit happier.
It reminded me how much I liked them.
But I'm not totally sure how to measure other people's happiness.
I'll keep thinking on it.
And I'd love to hear how you'd measure your happiness.
What would be in your happiness photos for the day?
Hit me with the questions from your personal happiness quiz.
It might even make you a little happy to do it.
And I'll post my little happiness quiz and photos on my Instagram.
I'm at Kerethnic, K-I-D, E-T-H, N-I-C, Say Hey, and Talk Soon.
M-I-Normal is part of the Ted Audio Collective.
This special season is hosted by me, Salim Roshamwala.
This episode was produced by Joanne D'Aluna and edited by Sarah Nix.
Our team includes Daphne Chen, Konstantse Gallardo, Michelle Quint, Van Banceng, Roxanne Highlash, and Jimmy Gutierrez.
Jennifer Namm is our researcher and fact checker, Original theme slog by Sasami.
Sarah Brueger is our mixed engineer.
And thank you so much to ModicellaB for bringing me along all this data scavenger hunt.
