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Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything.
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And thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for having me, Kwame.
I'm absolutely delighted to be here.
Yes, we are delighted to have you, my friend.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Thanks, Kwame. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on.
As I will send you just a minute or two ago, you know, I've been using your podcast to tell a lot of my students to go go listen to this podcast if you want to hear some of the most influential people in our field.
So just to say that up front, you know, so thank you, man.
Myself, my name is Enda Young, and I have been involved in conflict resolution, negotiation, mediation, one shape or form other for about 20 years.
I'm currently the managing director of mediation Northern Ireland.
And I've I kind of joke with people.
I'm a recovery mechanical engineer.
That was my that was my original degree.
But I got involved in this work.
Ernie is a teenager.
And maybe I can tell you a little bit about that as well, of why I do what I do, I guess, you know, so that's me.
This is great. And and I've been excited to have you on the show for months now.
Thank you for your patience and you have such an interesting background because you have the negotiation background, you have the mediation background, but then also where you're from Northern Ireland, Ireland.
I feel like people don't fully appreciate the conflict that was happening in that area of the world.
And so can you start off by telling us a little bit about that story and how that impacted your journey?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I suppose my own journey started when when I was a teenager, I was about 16 or 17 years old, and I got involved in what we would call cross community work then, and, you know, largely, I mean, bluntly speaking between, you know, people who would identify as Catholic and people
identify as from a Protestant background.
And for myself, you know, in the context, you know, we had our Good Friday Belfast peace agreement, you know, in 1998.
But before that, we'd lost about three and a half thousand people and with injuries of over 50 ,000 people had been injured during our conflict or troubles.
And this month in particular is the 35th anniversary of one particular bomb by the IRA and Enniskilling.
And that particular bomb, I guess my connection with it was in the bomb at the time, two particular individuals were caught up on it, one called Gordon Wilson and his daughter Marie.
And when the bomb went off, they buried both of those individuals in the rubble and Marie was buried in the rubble with her father, Gordon.
And her last words that he had heard her say at the time were Daddy, I love you very much before she passed.
And what was famous at the time was Gordon was then filmed by the BBC.
And, you know, how horrific a circumstance that was.
He said at the time, I bear no ill will, I bear no grudge.
Dirty sort of talk is not going to bring her back to life.
You know, at that time, you know, you know, that temporary, I was 25 years of violence, you know, it had a huge impact, and particularly emotionally.
And it became known that, you know, by what Gordon said at the time, you know, really did stop retaliations at that moment in time, you know, for that particular bombing.
And from his, I guess, that act of reconciliation or act of, you know, I don't know, not forgiveness, but what he said and how he said it, then an organization grew out of that and he set up called Spirit of Inner Skill.
And and that organization basically every year 50 young people went away.
Each group had 10 people, five girls, five boys, five Catholics, five Protestants.
And you went on an eight month program.
And I was one of those people who went away on that program.
I ended up we ended up being in Maine, Penobscot, and a Job Corps for a few weeks and ended up, you know, learning the basics of facilitation, conflict resolution, conflict analysis and things like that.
And during that program, when we came home, I one day, two people came into the organization and did a one day training session in mediation.
And I remember I must have been 17 at the time.
I remember just going, wow, what is that?
How do I do that for the rest of my life?
Right. So so so I did my engineering, got my degree and kind of went back and switched from mechanical engineering to my master's in theory, culture and identity, really focused on conflict transformation.
So so that was a bit of a shock to the system.
But but again, as what I said, a lot of people when I'm coaching them as well, I mean, it's like, regardless if I think difficult it was, you got to follow that bit of fire in your belly.
Right. You know, why do you do you do?
And I can reflect now down the line.
I'm glad I made that choice because it defined me.
Right. You know, and then it is that thing that gives me passion, you know, and it's it's it's, you know, the whole Simon Sinek of the why you're right.
You know, that that that's my kind of purpose, I think, you know.
So because of that, then I've been lucky to have done an awful lot of work nationally, internationally, lecturing, training, working with everyone.
Some of the major companies in Dubai, Malaysia, working a lot with the World Health Organization, lecturing at Queen's University Belfast, and I know currently the manager director is at a mediation in Northern Ireland.
Come back to that. It was that organization which trained me 20 years ago.
And I'm now, I guess, trying to see what they do over the next 25 years, right?
Wow, that is incredible.
Just kudos to you. It's an incredible story.
And your your perseverance and focus in this is really inspiring.
And then also for me, it's cool to see that there's so many people around the world having the same kind of awakening, like how you went through that program and you said mediation.
What is that? I want all of that.
I want that in my life, right?
And so for me, it was negotiation and conflict resolution is like, how do I how do I make that happen?
So it's really cool to see you matriculating and like growing in this and then helping spread this message throughout the world.
So kudos to you on that.
Thanks, Kwame. And and you know, I listen to your podcast and you see, it was the world of mediation that got me into negotiation, right?
And and I love that idea of the fundamental basics underneath it, because for me, regardless of where you are in the world, people are people hurt, hurt, harm is harm.
You know, the cultural nuance changes, the lens changes, right?
The monomony might change.
But the fundamental belief in this, what I've seen, wherever I've worked is the fundamental thing that makes us us remains the same.
And it's the unpacking of that that becomes really interesting.
Yes. Well, let's start unpacking it.
Let's begin this interesting journey.
This is great. Let's let's start.
So one of the things that you talked about was the intersection between negotiation and mediation.
Tell us more about that.
Again, it goes back to the idea of and I may be even coaching sometimes into that as well, a little bit, right?
And maybe I'll come back to that.
I think that that idea of how do we strive for alternative dispute resolution mechanisms?
What are the other ways of dealing with conflict outside of violence, right?
Outside of the more destructive elements.
And for me, the relationships and skill sets between negotiation and mediation are the same.
Right. I mean, the stuff that a lot of your your speakers, a lot of your listeners would be very fair with how do we listen?
How do we power phrase, how do we summarize?
How do we focus on dialogue and not just debate and all of those elements?
So I think there's a fundamental connection there.
I think that when you when you look at the similarity between, for example, mediation and coaching, which I think which for me, a lot of these sit within that same spectrum, the belief that the person in front of you has the answer.
Right. And as a mediator, that's what we're here to find.
And the belief is I'm not there to fix it.
I'm there to help them find their way to their solution.
And the same with coaching, executive coaching, right?
And ironically, you know, the people who have seen struggle sometimes the most when I'm training professional mediators, for example, are sometimes professional negotiators.
Right. And and and part of that for me is quite often I see really highly skilled professional negotiators who are brilliant at what they do.
Super experienced. But they're fixers, right?
They're people who are good at fixing and have been trained to fix maybe naturally inclined that way.
And then when I'm training in mediation, normally gets, you know, day to day three and a five day program.
And sometimes they're really struggling and they're struggling to take that step back because they're they're still in fixing mode.
And actually, the idea that, you know, it's not your conflict, therefore, it shouldn't be your solution can be quite challenging to people who just want to fix.
There is so much to begin to hear.
So let's let's let's go deeper when somebody wants to fix.
Let's say it might be somebody who has a negotiation background, whatever it happens to be.
They want to fix. What is it within themselves that they need to change in order to adopt a better mindset to be a better man?
I love that question.
And I think it comes down to being able to let go.
Right. That I mean, it's that maxim, it's not your conflict.
Therefore, it's not your solution.
And sometimes, you know, it's one of those moments in training where you're just waiting for something to click.
You know, when I see this, you know, training professional coaches as well.
And I think for me, it comes down to the intention behind the action.
Are you doing it for you or are you doing it for them?
Also, this idea that if I mean, I mean, let's take it from a practical standpoint.
If you are the negotiator who's now working in the mediation capacity and you see the solution, you feel the solution and then you give the solution.
Yeah, again, it might make you feel good, right?
And it gives you that, you know, I don't mean hitting all of that stuff.
And it might work. It might work in the short term.
But I guarantee you this.
If you go back in the long term, you've removed ownership over that solution, right?
And it's not your solution, which might work on paper.
But how how much real emotional investment do those individuals have in that room with you?
And particularly then if you're dealing with different power constructs, right?
People say yes, if they know that, you know, you know, their boss needs them to say yes, for example, right.
Or in a community setting, there may be other pressures there, for example.
So who are you doing it for and are you sure?
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Oh, man, again, listen.
And I need you to stop giving answers that are so profound because I have so many different angles that I want to go with my follow up questions.
OK, so let's let's let's this is so good.
OK, so I love the fact that we you're asking that that grounding question.
Are you doing it for you or doing it for them?
Because I know there have been times in my life where I realized, why am I pushing so hard?
What is this? Oh, this is about me, because I as a negotiator, sometimes we have that deal making bias and then we make it about ourselves by saying, listen, if I'm a good negotiator, I can get this done.
And it becomes very problematic, especially in your personal life, because now you're removing somebody's autonomy and agency and they feel like you're you're forcing them.
And it reminds me of one of the things a saying somebody brought up in one of the trainings.
And I told her, I'm like, listen, I'm going to put this in every training going for it.
Collaboration builds commitment.
Collaboration builds commitment.
If they feel as though they can look at the deal and see some of themselves in the deal, they can look back and remember the process and see that they contributed to it.
Now they're brought in because it's not your deal.
It's my deal. And I want this to succeed.
And so we have to be able to remove ourselves, not just by recognizing, hey, my ego is now getting in the way.
But also we realize that even if I let my ego get in the way and I do get a deal done, it's good for me, but it's not good for them because the deal that what we want are our lasting deals where people are bought in.
That's really, really important.
Absolutely. And I think, you know, the ways that we can help negate that are, you know, having good professional supervision as a mediator, for example, can help that having that, you know, sounding board outside of the system and the process that you're currently working on.
And the same as, you know, coaches having coaches as well, right.
Having someone to work that through, you know.
Absolutely. It's critical.
It's critical. When when you are seeing people going through this process, because you've trained an countless amount of mediators at this point, what would you say are the elements that separate the good mediators from the great mediators?
I think a few things, one curiosity and the ability to take that step back.
You know, emotional maturity sometimes and the ability to realize that you're not always right and there's always more to learn, I think.
And, you know, when you do get those individuals on programs who are clear to, you know, coming from a maybe previous experience or maybe naturally, you know, inclined towards this work, the idea of going, actually, I do need to do some stuff on myself that somebody said to me really, you know, years
ago that really defined it really well.
A good friend of mine who works for You Can in Canada, you know, it's about you knowing your stuff, you know, your own stuff.
And I mean that in a non -patternizing sense, you know, realizing that, you know, you got to know your own conflict resolution skill.
Sorry, you know, are you more inclined to avoid?
Are you again, somebody said to me, a mentor from years ago, Mariefin Stoff said to me, you know, some people who work in this field.
And I mean that is negotiation, mediation, conflict resolution in general.
Sometimes some of us tend to be naturally attracted to conflict.
And we got to be careful with that, you know.
Oh, that's fascinating.
Go go deeper on that last point.
Yeah, I mean, I think I've seen you know, if you've ever tried to get a group of mediators to agree on something, for example, you know, or or you're training people in the negotiation room and particularly experiencing negotiators, senior negotiators, and you're trying to decide what you're doing,
you know, you know, for the evening and what restaurant you're going to go out to, those small nuances, even those small things become interesting because, again, you have people who are highly skilled and dependent on where they're on their own professional journey, you know, how you, you know, their
own level of self -awareness, their own levels of emotional resilience, you know, their own levels of stress, all of that mix that makes us who we are today, not six years ago when we did our last CPD training course, right?
This is great. It makes so much sense.
And I genuinely got a big old kick out of what you said, trying to get mediators and negotiators to agree, because it's so true.
And I think a lot of times we can't turn it off.
It's like, hey, OK, we can't do it.
And then it's also these interactions turn into ego measuring competitions.
Let's call it ego measuring, right?
Where it's like, oh, you're a good mediator.
Well, I'm a better one.
You're a good negotiator.
I'm a better one. Oh, we're making a decision on where to go.
Let me try to influence that decision just kind of to show off how good I am at this.
And then when you bring it to the the actual conflicts itself, like the ones that matter, right, so the negotiations, the difficult conversations where we're having with somebody else or as as mediators where we are trying to essentially facilitate an agreement between two parties.
A lot of times we start to inject ourselves into the process inappropriately in a way that doesn't serve us, but just serves our ego.
Right. And it holds us back.
Absolutely. And I think that ego, you know, I was working with them.
Some really fantastic facilitators in Germany recently.
And I just loved how they operated.
They were you know, there's three of us facilitating this, you know, five day sort of conflict resolution negotiation training.
And the two of them kept just been working each other for years, kept checking in.
I'm really sorry I said that, you know, I was my ego that meant that.
I just love that level of professionalism with which you can use other people to check your own ego and be completely honest.
And you know, when I'm training negotiating teams as well, it's that idea of going, have you given the other members of your team permission to pull you on your ego?
And particularly if you're the boss, particularly if you're the lead negotiator.
Right. You know, and because quite often it's that idea, you know, it's the age old manager, you know, my door is always open and then you do the 360 assessment.
Not necessarily what the feedback said.
Right. Yeah. No, you're so right.
And I think it takes a lot of humility and self -awareness to recognize that.
And I think one of the things that's really helpful is when you realize that these just flaws and mistakes, those type of things, they are not an indication of a lack of worth for you as a professional or a human.
It's just an indication of your humanity.
And we're just all at the end of the day trying to become better people.
And so the faster I can acknowledge that and take it, take the feedback on the chin and say, you know what?
And you're right. That was that was a bad call on my part.
And when I look at myself, I think that was purely ego.
My bad. Yeah. Everybody elevates because of it.
Completely, completely.
And it is then how high in what we do.
It gives it people permission around us to do the same.
Right. You know, big time.
You know, and again, it's the it's the mirroring behaviors.
It's all the stuff that we know about.
And sometimes the stuff that we forget about when we're busy, right, when we're in the flow of the negotiation, when we're in the flow of the mediation, when we're when we're focused on the process around us.
But sometimes, you know, we forget about the, you know, the emotional legacy with which we leave those conversations sometimes as well.
Right. You know. Yeah, absolutely.
And and one of the things that you mentioned earlier when you talked about the the skills of great negotiators was the ability to step back and, you know, step back and think about it physically.
It seems pretty easy.
OK. And I took the step back.
Right. But when you say step back, there are several layers to it.
So what does that mean to you?
I love that. And it's something I've become really interested in over the last few years, particularly when I'm coaching people, then conflict coaching there, you know, helping people become on stock.
I was coaching someone recently and they were really struggling.
I was working with this individual senior level manager for a year, you know, and took them about three quarters of the way through the year of coaching.
Then I got it. Now this is, you know, you know, I was able to take that step.
But we did a deep dive and, you know, I love the work of Yuri and Fisher and we're all familiar with going to the balcony, right?
I love that term. Then we unpack that term.
What does the term mean?
You know, so for some people, it's about, you know, seeing each word that's said at that moment in time.
And I kind of parallel it with first aid, right?
You know, if you're trained as a first responder, you're you know, yeah, you can walk in and help if there's a crash on the motorway system or the road.
But if you don't take a step back, guess what happens?
You get hit by the next car and you become part of the problem.
And for me, it's exactly the same thing as you go into the balcony.
So, you know, so we analyze that when I'm when I'm coaching people.
So what do you do? You know, how do you talk to yourself?
You know, and if you're if you're getting really, really fast, well, then slow how you talk to yourself down.
If you're shouting at yourself, guess what?
Go softer. And, you know, for some people, putting the tongue to the roof of their mouth acts as a physical anchor and, you know, sort of those parts of the brain responsible for speech.
Other people, as I said, see each individual word, other people focus on the breathing.
Other people twiddle their toes right to anchor themselves or anchor points on their thumb and their finger.
But fundamentally, I guarantee you this, you to your listener or whoever's you already do this.
Right. We already go to the balcony.
And yet often there are times we do it better than others.
And it's it's that deconstruction of the times we do it better that interests me.
So when's the last time you did it really well?
What was the difference between that time and the time where you kind of you retired or you were grown by you or whatever that might be?
And if you can deconstruct that, then you can repeat that.
Oh, this is good, because what I'm realizing as you describe it is that essentially everybody's balcony is different.
And and so when we describe I love that Fisher and Yuri would get into.
Yes, they described it so well.
And then I know that there are some people who who read their work and said, oh, it doesn't really resonate.
Well, then maybe you need to go to a different place.
Right. So for them, it might be described as a balcony.
For me, as somebody who loves chess, it might be walked to the other side of the table, you know, it because I naturally if I'm playing in person, I can naturally feel myself like, OK, I need to stand up.
I'm not saying I'm going to look from a different angle.
And so whatever works for you, you have to figure that out.
And there will be times where you're better.
And so like, I'll disclose some examples.
So I know for me, I'm better in general at work than I am at home.
So like if it's a business negotiation, imagine like with a client, that's super easy because it's easy to detach.
It becomes harder when it's colleagues at work, but still a little bit easier than it is at home with family and friends, because those relationships are more lasting.
Right. And so then I realize what is the mentality that helps me to do well in those.
It's going to the balcony looks different.
So for me in a mediation, I think to myself, listen, this is not my conflict.
Right. And so I'm here to to be the level head of nobody.
If I'm not level headed, then who will be?
So it's my responsibility.
So I can go I can pull myself back because it's not mine.
But then at home, what I have to do is I have to say, I always say to myself, what would I tell somebody else to do?
Because that puts me back into that like the role of a professional.
So I'm going to be more compassionate and empathetic with my tone.
But I'm going to remember stick to the fundamentals.
Listen, use empathy, use the compassionate curiosity framework, whatever it is.
And so I stick to that form.
But I have to have like a little Kwame coach in my head.
You know, so it's really cool to see that I love that.
You can get to that same destination using different methodologies.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And I think it changes as well.
Right. Because it changes, you know, whether on emotional resilience or on levels of coughing intake or sleep, you know, nutritional arrangements, exercise, all of those things affect that moment in time.
So so that that idea of, you know, you know, preparation, you know, before we go in as you know, and I know you've got a really good preparation sheet on your website, you know, all of that, you know, you know, all of that comes in to your ability to go to the balcony today before your next negotiation,
before your next mediation, even those 30 seconds, and we know what it affects are from a neurological and biological perspective.
You know, for me, you know, I focus on my tone, right.
And, you know, you know, obviously, Chris Voss talks about, you know, you know, the the cool, you know, late night DJ voice or my wife calls my UN voice.
Right. There's that, you know, right?
So tonality is a big thing for me.
And and I think that that helps me focus on where I need to be at that moment in time as well as as breathing.
And the last thing that comes from work of Susan Davies as well, there are an emotional intelligence and stuff like that from Harvard, is that idea of your mantra mantra, right?
You know, very quick one, you know, all problems want to be solved, all problems want to be solved.
Right. It's something like that.
It works for me. Right.
And everyone, as you said, is different, you know.
And I love exploring that with individuals and going, well, what's yours right now?
And what is it on your best days?
This is good. Oh, man.
There is so much. And, you know, I think at this point, it's very clear.
We need to have you back.
We need we need to have you back on, man.
This is this is too good.
And listen, little Easter egg for the for the listeners, too.
I am promising everybody I will be in Europe unless there's another pandemic.
OK. Hopefully not. Let's I will be in Europe in the summer of 2023.
So hopefully we can make that happen.
And maybe next time we do it, we can do it in person.
That'd be pretty cool.
I know that will I find yourself officially invited to Belfast.
Hey, I appreciate it, brother.
Well, listen, before you go, remind the listeners about your incredible work and how they can get in touch with you.
Thank you. And thanks for having me on.
And you can find me on LinkedIn and the young and on our website for mediation, Northern Ireland, mediation.
And I don't work. Reach out, folks.
I'm always always happy to chat.
That's my job. This is great.
And thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you, Kwame. Thanks so much for having me on, buddy.
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