I want people to know that they're not fine on Monday and Burnout onFriday.
That's not how thatworks.
That triad ofexhaustion,cynicism, and ineffectiveness occurs over time and you're adjusting to all ofthat.
It's not yourfault. It's actually a wake-upcall.
Burnout is a wake-up call telling you that the way that you've done this has served you untilnow.
We want to thankthat. Thankyou.
Thank you for thosemechanisms.
Thank you for getting mehere.
But this is a wake-up call telling you that what's gotten you here isn't going to get you where you'regoing.
Allright, season our life here to tell uslike,huh, is this where you really want togo?
Let's doublecheck. Let's make sure that the choices we're making fill our hearts withmeaningful, purposeful steps on thejourney.
And are we just doing them because that's what other people say we should do or are we doing it because this is what really fuels us and what we want todo.
So have you ever felt soexhausted, drained at the end of yourrope, human downrightcynical, about everything from relationships to work and the world that you just knew that this wasn'tyou, but you couldn't quite figure out how to get out of thatfeeling.
That is the reality of something a lot of people experience that we callburnout.
It's a state of just physical and mental and emotional depletion that can leave us feeling hopeless andhelpless.
And in case you'rewondering,no, it's not just aboutwork.
It can happen to anyone and be brought on by a piling on effect that comes from nearly any and alldirections.
I have experienced this a number of times myself and in truth not even that longago.
And I've had so many conversations with friends and colleagues who've experienced the same thing and sometimes kind of not even wanted to share it and just sufferedalone.
So I wanted to find out what's really going on here and what we can do aboutit.
And that's why I invitedDr.
NehaSang-Lan, aphysician,engineer, and author and communication expert to just take me into her game-changing work on thetopic.
Neha is the founder and CEO of IntuitiveIntelligence.
It's an organization on a mission to empower people and teens with mindful communicationtools.
And as a speaker and author and consultant to top companies like Google and AmericanExpress, she's just upfront and deeply invested in bridging the worlds of physical and mental health with truly deep insights from her own intense burnoutexperience, which sheshares.
Neha really peels back the layers to reveal the surprising rootcauses.
In her groundbreaking book Powered byMe, from Burned Out to Fully Charged Network and inLife, she shares a revolutionary framework to really help us rebuild personal power and reclaim energy and passion and purpose to break the cycle ofburnout.
So excited to share this conversation withyou.
I'm JonathanFields, and this is Good LifeProject.
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Youknow, I feel like the phrase burnout has been just so popularized for better and forworse.
Probably, youknow, the fact that it actually has become such a part of the common conversation is a signpost of how many people are experiencing this weirdphenomenon.
But at the sametime, I also feel like we're not always speaking the same language when we use the wordburnout.
What does that actuallymean?
And I think that's an interesting starting point for us is when we talk aboutburnout.
What are we actually talkingabout?
That's a really goodpoint.
Youknow, ingeneral, I think it's people experiencing anoverwhelm.
So if I just said it in layman'sterms, I would sayit's, youknow, they've been functioning a certain way for a longtime.
Mother Nature gives us so many beautiful coping mechanisms like our blood pressure changing and our heart rate changing and all of these things to adjust to the world aroundus.
We also have our own patterns that weuse.
Forme, it was sugar and caffeine to get me through 36 hour shifts at thehospital.
And so we all come up with our own creative ways to augment our own physiologychanging.
But at the end of theday,really, after we've we've used up the strategies and mechanisms to keepgoing, perhaps against our own biology and our own fatigue and our own ways of theworld.
It's like the external world is speedingup.
And at somepoint, we are adjusting toit.
And there comes a point where perhaps our copingmechanisms, ourstrategies, we're out ofthem.
And I think that's when people start to experience that overwhelm that many people refer to asburnout.
But just straightup, what does the researchsay?
Let's talk aboutthat. So it's atriad.
Burnout is atriad. It begins withphysical,mental, emotionalexhaustion.
So the first word isexhaustion.
It occurs overtime, just like I explained toyou, there are many ways that even when things are stressful orhard, our biology is built forthat.
We know how to get out ofdanger, animals know how to run away and rev everythingup,right?
We know how to dothat. But when it becomes a way oflife, when it is the pace of emails coming in that you can never catch upto.
When you're taking in data and communication in so many ways that you have to beasking, how did you send that tome?
Was it on Slack or chat or WhatsApp or email orhow?
How amI? We start getting so inundated by faster as better and do more with less thatexhaustion.
Exhaustance, the first pillar of the three in the triad ofburnout.
And it's usuallyphysical,mental, and emotional types ofexhaustion.
So that's been going on for awhile.
We've been adjusting toit.
And then the second pillar comesin, which is it's almost like imagine it like anundercurrent.
I think of theocean. It's like you can't seeit, butboy, you can feelit.
And it's when in thatexhaustion, you start to hear your own mind saying thingslike, it doesn't matter how hard Itry, I'll never make a dent in changinghealthcare.
I'll never be able to make a difference in my you fill in the blank onindustry.
Whatever it is that you're on firefor, you're passionateabout, you're anentrepreneur, you are wanting to make adifference.
There's this undercurrent that is your own thinking that after a while starts to undermine you and that'scynicism.
Now in that samespace, even though you may be longing forconnection, you may do something called depersonalization where you start distancing yourself from other people not because you don't need the community or wantit.
You just don't have the energy left toengage.
Soexhaustion, cynicism with a bit of depersonalization aswell.
And then the third part of the triad isineffectiveness, where you literally becomeineffective.
You're makingmistakes.
You aren't functioning the way that you needto.
And so the triad isexhaustion,cynicism, andineffectiveness.
It'sinteresting. I think the cynicism part of it is especially interesting tome.
I've been thinking actually about that word and that experience a lot lately and a lot of differentdomains.
And also contrasting a bit withskepticism, which I think often can be sort of tapped in a healthyway.
But cynicism is sort of like you lose the sense ofpossibility.
Yeah.See, cynicism andfutility, I feel like there's a really close relationshipthere.
Yeah. The way you're describingit, these three differentelements, one of the questions that comes to mind is when you think aboutthis,okay, so we're experiencing this now on a broadscale.
And I think you kind of tease this a littleearlier.
This is not about workinghard, youknow, because when you look back togenerations, you're like agriculturalworkers.
A lot of people put in longhours.
They work really hard physically andcognitively.
Andyet, youknow, even though it maybe it wasn't as well defined and the word wasn't sort of coined backthen.
My guess wouldbe, you have a lot fewer peoplesaying,well, I feel burnedout, youknow.
And I wonder if sometimes we make this wrong connection that says that it's the number of hours that we're puttingin.
That's really the driver ofthis.
Butreally, it's more complex andnuanced.
What's your take onthat?
Yeah. So I've been to finish one thought about what came to me about putting this in context forpeople.
And then I'm going to answer this second piece that you just spokeabout.
I want people to know that they'renot, they're not fine on Monday and burn out onFriday.
That's not how thatworks.
Literally that triad ofexhaustion, cynicism and ineffectiveness occurs over time and you're adjusting to all ofthat.
And the first phase is the alarmphase.
It's almost like you're jumping on a treadmill that's going like a little toofast.
Thatsensation. But most people don't get off thetreadmill.
They not only adjust to that faster pace and then they themselves start turning up the pace and taking on more andmore.
And so then it becomes a way oflife.
And as as soon as the alarm phase of burnout becomes the way youlive, you're now using all your coping mechanisms and you've moved into the secondphase, which is chronicadaptation.
And you are literally hanging on by athreat.
You're walking in and you're saying thingslike, you knowwhat, make it a doubletoday.
You're at the barista and you'relike,hey, make it adouble.
You don't even notice that one cup of coffee isn't enoughanymore.
You need two and it hasn't even gotten to 8a.m.
Right? So there's ways that thosemechanisms, we start uppingthem.
And we're on thistrajectory, but we don't even realizeit.
I need a glass of wine afterwork.
You knowwhat? Hand me thebottle,right?
Like we start knowing that we need more and more ofthis.
Those aresigns. And then one more thinghappens, whether it's apandemic, whether it's adisappointment, you don't get thepromotion, you get a review that was not what you expected it tobe.
And you start sliding down the slippery slope of exhaustion toineffectiveness.
So I just wantto, I just wantedto, youknow, say there's a triad that occurs and that occurs over threephases.
So this is a gradual experience of patterns and coping mechanisms and ways that we haveadjusted.
When thathappens, the first thing I want people to knowis, it's not yourfault.
Okay. You do have a part init, but it is not yourfault.
Meaning it is a combination ofme,we,world.
There is a way that you're adjusting and choosing to cope with an environment that is movingquickly, movingfast.
Maybe you're anentrepreneur, maybe you're in an environment where more is better to do more with less everyyear.
There is asystem,right?
Whether it'shealthcare, whether it'sentrepreneurship, whether it'sfunding, I don't know what it is for whoever'slistening.
But there's a system in which you function where the social rewards of what makes you successful often driveyou.
And so we have lost paying attention to our own definition of success and have surrendered to societal definition ofsuccess.
And in thatspace, we probably don't even do itconsciously.
We've done it since we werelittle.
We want to make our parentsproud.
We want to fit in andbelong.
We want to get anA. We want to be the athlete that other peoplerecognize.
Then we go intowork. We getmarried.
And it just alltransfers.
You want to make everybodyproud.
You want to be the one who's seen and recognized andcelebrated.
So as we speak aboutthis, I just want people to know that it's not yourfault.
It's actually a wake upcall.
It's a wake upcall. Bernad is a wake up call telling you that the way that you've done this has served you untilnow.
We want to thankthat. Thankyou.
Thank you for thosemechanisms.
Thank you for getting mehere.
Thank you for all ofthat.
But this is a wake up call telling you that what's gotten you here isn't going to get you where you'regoing.
Yeah. So that kind of aframing, Ithink, is really important to kind of dispel this as some failure orproblem.
It's just ourseason, our life are here to tell uslike,huh, is this where you really want togo?
Let's doublecheck. Let's make sure that the choices we're making fill our hearts withmeaningful, purposeful steps on thejourney.
And are we just doing them because that's what other people say we should do or are we doing it because this is what really fuels us and what we want todo.
Yeah, that makes so much sense tome.
It's like what you're describing is we put ourselves in situations because we're sort of tracking towards what we believeis,well, this is how we quote succeed in the different domains oflife.
And we kind of like follow along thatpath.
And then the demands ratchet up thepace, ratchet up the acceleration of all of that ratchetup.
So we create these adaptive coping mechanisms and then we're kindof,okay, we'reokay.
Youknow, like we're kind of like cruisingalong.
We're doing the thing we're supposed to do and we're kind ofokay.
Yeah. And we're doing like we're doing thecoffee, we're doing the this and it's kind of like helping us getthrough.
But at some point it sounds like what you're describing is like adaptive turnsmaladaptive.
Yes. And we don't we don't see it coming because we are on the treadmillalready.
We're in thesystem. We're inside thejar.
We can't be the label fromthere.
Youknow, and all of a sudden we don't realize that we're like we're doing the double and then the triple and then we're so it's it's almost like it's building inside of us and all aroundus.
But we don't really realize the tool that's taking because we keep doing things to kind of prop ourselves up in all the differentways.
Untilfinally, I think for mostpeople, this is the way ithappens.
There's a moment where everything comes crashing down and God willing that moment doesn't involve a profound healthcrisis.
But sometimes it does for somepeople.
How can we recognize thesesigns?
How can we recognize both the signs and our tipping from adaptive to maladaptive coping mechanisms before we actually hit that point where everything crashes andburns?
So I want to I want to just say as as adoctor, youknow, in a mechanicalengineer, I'm an internal medicinephysician, my training taught me to tune out of me and tune into taking care ofyou.
And so me being good at my job was me peeing when Ican, sleeping when Ican, and eating when Ican.
But really my success depended on me tuning out ofme.
So the first time I ever realized that I was burned out was literally the day I walked into thehospital, had 18patients, youknow, was doing allthis, youknow, incoming transfers from otherhospitals, walked up to a nurse five hours into my shift andsaid,Nina, could you please get 40 mill equivalents of IV potassium to the gentleman in636?
And shesaid,Dr.Sangwan, are youokay?
And that was my first indication that I might notbe.
And Isaid,yeah,why? And shesaid, because that's the fourth time in under five minutes that you've asked me the samequestion.
And I've answered you everytime.
I had no recollection ofthat.
And that's how I knew something waswrong.
Now, I am not a greatexample, because that's how tuned out Iwas.
So did it make me a gooddoctor?
Youbet. If you were in thehospital, you wanted me to do whatever it took to take care of you in acrisis,right?
And at the sametime, was I a gooddoctor?
You probably didn't want me if I didn't even know what was actuallyhappening,right?
So it's all kind of amix.
It's almost like it's aparadox, because we revere each other for the excellence that we achieve in theworld, but to get to be on theextremes, there's something we must pushthrough.
And it's our ownbiology.
And so what we learned to do is push through our body rather than partner withit.
At somepoint, we're going tocrash.
Thank God that nurse that day went against power and hierarchy and questionedme, because sometimes we're so in it and we have these structures builtin, but we need eachother.
In thisworld, the pace of ourworld, now generative AI is a bigdeal.
Our world is not slowing down at anyway, shape orform.
And our biology runs in a series of feedbackloops.
We are supposed to exert ourselves and then we're supposed torest.
We're supposed to exert our muscles and stressthem.
And then we're supposed to let themrepair.
Our biology does not work with a world that says faster isbetter, do more with less profit overpeople.
All the things that we saymore,more,more, we have now used our collective brains collectivelytogether.
Use our minds to speed up the externalworld.
And the only way we can survive in this world is by blocking the signals that come from ourbody.
The cries of our heartsaying, oh mygosh, like this doesn't feelgood, I feelheavy.
Well, you got to doit. You got to make aliving.
You got to do it or the passion and our soul and ourspirit, the meaning of what we'redoing.
What if this isn'tfulfilling?
We're likesilent,silent,silent, faster isbetter.
And we collectively use our brains to speed up an external world that our biology no longer can functionin.
So this idea ofburnout, the reason there's so much research being done and all we keep seeing is risingnumbers, risingnumbers.
I'm overthat. I'm done with reading research about how burnout isgrowing.
And I'm ready to have a world where we figure out how to expand our owncapacity.
A world where we up level our own humansoftware.
A world where we do what you'reasking, which isNihah.
How do we pick up these signsearlier?
How do we actually know earlier that something could behappening?
So I told you about the alarmphase, the chronic adaptation phase and the exhaustionphase.
In the alarmphase, it's like you feelagitated.
You might have muscleaches,pains, because why stress causes or exacerbates more than80% of allillness, just by the way physicalillness.
Stress depletesmagnesium.
A low magnesium gives you musclecramps,pain, all ofthat.
Soheadaches. Maybe you're having insomnia and intestinalissues.
Now, if you're having any of these things that I just spokeabout, you don't think burnoutfirst.
The first thing you do is go get a clean bill of physical health because this could mean manythings.
But these arealso, if you go to the doctors and yousay,yeah, I'm struggling with thesethings, and they saylike,oh, you'refine.
We ran thetests. You'refine.
But you don't feelfine.
Now, I want you to start thinking about burnout or some other explanation of what'shappening.
What doctors are actually saying to youis, there's nothing going on on a physical level that I can use to explain these physicalsymptoms.
And so I wish that they would saythat.
Butinstead, they say thingslike, you'refine.
And patients go awaysaying,well, that's really weird because I'm not sleeping and my chest feelsweird.
And I don't think I'mfine.
Right? And so that's thedisconnect.
When I teach doctors andnurses, I teach them to say things likethis.
There's good news and there's badnews.
You came in with this chestdiscomfort.
Here's the goodnews. We ran theEKG.
We tested yourheart. Everything on a physicallevel, electrical function of your everything is greatphysically.
I'm wondering if there's something on amental,emotional,social, or spiritual level that's unresolved for you that might be showing up in your physical body to get yourattention.
That's the question I'd beasking.
And I think we missedthat.
You wanted to know how would weknow?
So I toldyou, you mightbe, you might feelfatigue,right?
Thesepalpitations, muscleaches,headaches, and some of the intestinalissues.
You might beirritated.
You might snap atpeople.
You might feeloverwhelmed.
You might feel sad and belike,wow, I don't know why I'm feeling thisway.
So you're starting to not recognizeyourself.
You might missdeadline.
You might beforgetful.
Blame otherpeople's, youknow, staylate, come inlate.
Things that aren'tyou.
You might makemistakes.
That's like in the beginning where you're starting to realizelike, I'm notme.
As this goes on overtime, you'll literally in that chronicadaptation, when you're using all these differentstrategies, you might startprocrastinating, calling in six socially withdrawing, that depersonalization that we spoke aboutcynicism.
But here's how I know you're at the end of the chronic adaptation phase and getting in realtrouble.
When you're using more of your coping mechanism than you didbefore, even if your coping mechanism is running orexercising.
You used to be able to run a couple miles and everything wasfine.
But now you're running five and 10 miles just to get the sameeffect.
So when you're using any copingmechanism, but you're needing more of it and more ofit, that is a subtle but important clue to pay attentionto.
And here's how I know you're almost at exhaustion and ineffectiveness.
When you start telling me thingslike, it doesn't reallymatter.
I can't make adifference.
It'sapathy. That's what I know now that that cynicism has come in and now you're undermining your ownefforts.
And thenexhaustion, theineffectiveness, the lastphase, aweekend, a weekoff.
They're notenough. They're not enoughanymore.
You don'trecover. You're notresetting.
So you're having this extremefatigue,heaviness,lethargy.
It's not goingaway. You might have difficultyfunctioning.
You might havedepression.
Now burn out depression are not the samething.
But sometimes theyoverlap.
So you might have somedepression.
And at the veryend, the most severedebilitating, you can't function and you have hopelessness and suicidalideation.
But anytime you're you're hitting this exhaustion phase where you start not being able torecover, that is when you most certainly need professionalhelp.
That's not even aquestion.
Youneed, I would be writing you for timeoff.
And you need to be seeing someone professionally to helpyou.
But here's myhope. I wrote a book onburnout.
It's called Powered by Me from Burned Out to Fully Charged at Work and InLife.
I want exactly what you'reasking.
How do we move people up in this wholespectrum?
So they're picking this upearly.
They're shifting muchearlier.
So we don't have this crisis experience in theworld.
And we'll be right back after a word from oursponsors.
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I'm glad you brought up this contrast with depression also because a lot of the things that you were talking about would be on the diagnostic checklist for depression aswell.
I've had conversations with friends over the years and I've probably wondered aboutmyself.
Life long on Chiminoor and also avery, very long time ago past life as a big firm lawyer in New YorkCity.
I worked that same way until I literally ended up in emergency surgery while my mean system shut down and had you ask me backthen, are you burned out or youdepressed?
I would have probably just nodded andsaid, I honestlycan't, I justyes, maybe I can't tellyou.
I literallycan't, I probably can't even discern clearly what's goingon.
I ended up leaving the law after that particular position but was interesting at least in hindsight for me is before I walked away from that entirecareer, I knew that actually some a voice inside mesaid, you're not actually functioning at a level right now where you're capable of making a gooddecision.
You needspace. So before I actuallyquit, I took a leave of absence and I basicallysaid, I need a month just tobe, just torecover, just tosleep, just to eat good food and start moving my body again because I don't think I can make a good decision rightnow.
And I think back in that season of my own experience and as sometimes I was absolutely burnedout.
I was beyond the hours I was putting in the level ofstress, I was maintaining the pace I was going and the lack of care was given tomyself.
But I also wonder if there was an element of depression that was mixed in withit.
And it seems like if you're experiencing this and this isn't a question foryou, it's almost like how can you not at some point tip into some level of depressive experience along withthis?
Yeah,well, I'll give you my example because let's let's back up for a second where people are from burned out to fully charge because everybody's somewhere on the spectrum always you're from burned out to fully charged at work and inlife.
Well, you figure that out by figuring out where you have a net gain or net drain of energy on aphysical,mental,emotional, social and spirituallevel.
So that's the way that over these 20 years I have now come to understand is thecommon, the commonality for these tens of thousands of people that I've workedwith.
So whether you'redoctors, whether you'relawyers, whatever itis.
Now, the important thing here is thatpeople, when you're overwhelmed likethat, you don't know what itis.
It all just feels like a bigdrain.
But when you think of burnout, burn out is not somebody who's a drag on yourteam.
It's usually someone who's prettyactive, typeA, going forit.
They'repassionate. Why do entrepreneurs burn out somuch?
Because it's the all-or-none lifestyle that they're going forit.
There's deadlines of funding and product and everything that they need to get over to keep this thingalive.
So burn out is like you're on fire forsomething.
You've developed ways to live that allow you to do the extremes and make these achievements that no one else has evermade.
Whereasdepression, so it's a clinicaldiagnosis.
You need to havesomebody, you need thecontext, you need to understand what's literally happening forthem.
But I'm telling you how I doit, which is depression is more of astuckness.
I would define it more of asinking, astuckness.
Depression doesn't take a long time tohappen.
Sometimes a tragicevent, some sort of trauma beingreactivated, it can happen just likethis.
Abreakup, adis- something can happen and it can tip you right intodepression.
And the definition of depression is that you've been sad for six months ormore.
They want to make sure that it's been going on for a certain amount oftime.
But the energy of it is verydifferent.
So I'll tell you that day that I burned out where I was in thehospital.
When the nurse said that tome, I literally wasstunned.
And I walked to the bathroom and took out my hospital phone and called acolleague, a psychiatriccolleague.
And Isaid, one's a good time for me to come seeyou.
And hesaid, how about five o'clocktonight?
It was like 11 in themorning.
And Isaid, how aboutnow?
That's like 9-1-1 from adoctor.
We don't dothat. And hesaid, oh mygod, come overnow.
And hourlater, in his office after he had asked me a bunch ofquestions, he gave me what most doctors can give you is a prescription for timeoff.
He had givenme, Ithink, six weeks off and a prescription forProZac.
Now we have the power of the pen to give you paid timeoff.
And the second thing we're listening for is what is the contexthere?
I have a cocktail of medications I can giveyou.
Anti-depressant,anti-anxiety, sleep medication to name afew.
What I'm doing in that moment is pulling you off the cliff and knocking you back into sleeprhythm.
Ifyou're, youknow, if you'redepressed, I want to help lift yourmood.
If you'reanxious, I want to calm youdown.
Whatever I'mdoing, I'm trying to get this bullet train from hitting a brickwall,okay, or falling over acliff.
So I stop yourworld, give you paid timeoff, so you can take care ofyourself.
And then I give you some cocktail ofmedications.
Here's theproblem. 10 days amonth, three monthslater, I send you back in the ring for round two without a single idea of how you got there or how to do itdifferently.
And as humanbeings, we runpatterns, we runbehaviors.
We have neuronal pathways in our brain and in our system that we are who weare.
And if we don't have any awareness or ability to have insights onthat, how are we going to change what'shappening?
And so thank God for me being a doctor and him being a psychiatrist who was quite aware 20 years ago ofthis.
Chapter two of my book is the five sessions I had with himweekly.
Really gettingme, like behind the scenes of mesaying, how do I notknow?
I give people time off and I could give them theseprescriptions, but when I happened tome, I didn't even know what was goingon.
Here's thekicker. I'm drivinghome.
And he tells melike,nah, you can't single-handedly change healthcare.
You take every overnight shift when people call outsick.
I don't think you understand that this is a meweworld.
You're in a system that makes its budget byunderstaffing.
This game is not one you and your biology are going towin.
And here Iwas, a doctor I had taken an oath to take care ofpatients, only one person at night on call for 336patients.
I felt like it was my responsibility to volunteer with the oath I had taken to make sure they were going to besafe.
But what I had forgotten about was the oath I needed to take formyself.
And so I'm drivinghome.
And he'slike,nah, I'm going to diagnose you with a severe case of peoplepleasing.
And there Iwas. I went from running the hospital to standing in line for my own medication forProzac.
And I'm drivinghome. And I'm looking at the Prozac on mychair, the car seat next tome, and I'mthinking, I don't know what's going on withme.
But I'm pretty sure it's not a Prozacdeficiency.
I wasn'tdepressed. I literally had pushed through my body in the name of a highercalling.
And so I took thatProzac.
I put it in the topdrawer.
And Ithought,no, this is where you never want your patient to be adoctor, because I startself-managing.
And so Isaid, you knowwhat?
I'm going to talk to himweekly.
I know the side effects ofthis.
I've memorizedthem. I'm more afraid of those than I am of what's goingon.
Maybe him and I together can figure thisout.
So five weeks goby. And it's the first time I startedsleeping.
It's the first time the throat constriction in my throat startedrelaxing.
And I got fiveweeks. And I walk in and Isay, oh mygosh, I wanted to tell you I slept lastnight.
And hesaid,oh, that Prozac is kicking in right ontime, five weeksin.
And Isaid, oh mygosh, I didn't tellyou.
I didn't take theProzac.
I wanted to see how our exchanges were going to go each week and see if I could figure itout.
I'msorry. I didn't think to tellyou.
And he said tome, I can't build for a patient not onmedication.
Would you like to find a new provider or would you like to start taking themedication?
That was my wake upcall.
Yeah. You're going to adjust to an insurancesrequirement.
You've just given me months offpaid.
I'm gettingbetter. And we have tofollow, you're going to put me on medication with side effects so that we can match thebilling.
I waslike,no, and that was the day I committed to documenting everything I learned in this process and filling that gap for people with how did I gethere?
What are the underlyingbehaviors?
Where do I have a net gain or a net drain ofenergy?
And what are the powerful practical tools toheal?
So it's my answer to that gap in medicine that I think we haven't figuredout.
And I think it's why the gap keeps widening in theworld.
We keep giving quick fixes rather thansolutions.
Yeah. You also shared a little bitearlier.
When you take this metaluck andsay, what's really happeninghere?
And how can we do thingsdifferently?
It distills down to a bit of aframework, a more holistic approach with the five different things that really need to be factored in that you describedearlier, thephysical, themental, theemotional, thesocial, andspiritual.
How do we look at well-being from all of these different things and these differentangles?
I'd love to walk through sort of each one of those domains a little bit and understand better what you actually mean when we're talking aboutit.
And also how they work into this notion of being more okay in thecontext, especially ofburn-outs.
I think it makes sense to start out with physical because that's probably the one that most of us will actually I was going to say it's the one that most of us are awareof.
Butactually, and this is what you writeabout, we think weare.
But we reallyaren't. You'reright.
Soyes, let's dothis. Here's anotherthing.
I'd love to give anyone listening their own burn-out assessment that they can do for themselves or to find out where they are from burned out to to fullycharged.
I'll give you the link forthat.
It'll be free forthem. And it can be if they're doing reallywell, it can be for anyone they love andlead.
Because I think this getting healthy is a teamsport, healing from burnout is a communityexperience.
It doesn't occuralone.
And thank God for the nurse who said what she said tome.
Thank God for the doctor who took me in immediately and diagnosed me with people pleasing and sent me on that leave because something much worse could have happened with me prescribing a wrongmedication, me hurting apatient.
I'm not sure I should have been driving myself home thatday, but all inall, it endedwell,right?
Okay. I'd start withphysical.
So how do I take a look at this and then ask a few questions to give like a pulsecheck?
Like do you have a net gain or a net drain itphysically?
So the way I think about it isfood,sleep, movement andenergy.
Food. How satisfied are you with your ownability, like your own performance in each of these on a scale of one to 10food?
Are youeating, youknow, whole foods at regular intervals throughout theday?
Like how are you nourishingyourself?
Not only how are younourishing, buttiming.
Now some people are doing fasting and all these otherthings.
That's a differentexperience,right?
But I'm just saying ingeneral, how is that happening and how satisfied are you withthat?
Physicist one issleep.
We have become a world that wakes up in the morning and looks at a device to see what our readiness scoreis.
We don't ask our body if we're wellrested.
We don't checkinside. We are sourcing it from outside ofus.
That's how little we're connected to our own physicalbody.
But I ask questions like when you wake up do you feelrested?
Do you get seven to nine hours of quality sleep anight?
Because there's three really important things going on when yousleep.
Numberone, memoryconsolidation.
You're integrating everything youlearned.
Numbertwo, physicalrepair.
Whether you went to the gym and your muscles need to be repaired or your immune system needs to bestrengthened.
That's all goingon. The third one is so that's physicalrepair.
Memoryconsolidation, physicalrepair, and the third one is emotionalprocessing.
If over time you startsaying, I'll sleep when I'mdead, I'll sleep on the weekend and you start getting less and lesssleep.
Yourbody, get ready forthis.
It prioritizes emotional processing over physical repair and immune function and memory consolidation and integration of what you'velearned.
Then you fall sick after a littlewhile.
What do youdo? You crawl inbed.
Your body has this wholesystem.
It knows how to dothis. When we think we're smarter than thebody, the body alwayswins.
So,food,sleep. Do you have a joyful way to move your body multiple times aweek?
Energy, which is around cortisol andhormones.
Do you feel even energy consistently throughout theday?
You have in those dips to a clock energydip, three o'clock energy dip where you're running to get a chocolate chip cookie and something to boost your backup.
The other one is physicalailments.
Does yourbody, is there something that's chronically botheringyou?
Now, once you answer thesequestions, so you rate yourself on a scale of one toten.
Food,energy,sleep, movement and physicalsymptoms.
Then this is thetrick. That's what your mindsaid.
Now what you got to do is you got to literally check into your ownbiology, your ownphysiology.
You have to check and see as you answer thosequestions.
Are you feeling a constriction heavinesstightness, netdrain, in yourbody?
Or are you feelingrelaxed, open andlight?
Net gain and yourmind, the answer to the questions along with your body have to be inharmony.
If they are not inharmony, you have a net drain in the physicalsection.
Because your body neverlies.
Our mind can say things like I'll sleep when I'mdead.
But your body isdragging.
Your body feelsheavy. And if your mind and your body aren't insync, the answer is net drain to each section that they're not insync.
That makes so muchsense.
And that has been my experience handsdown.
I've actually learned over the years that in a weirdway, I've developed mindset self-care practices that allow me from a sort of a psychological standpoint to be fairly atpeace, to be fairly calm and balanced and steady in really highstakes, high uncertainty situationswhere, and sometimes for long windows oftime, but I've learned that my body actually doesn't have the same capacity that my mind does to sustain myself in a healthy way in thosescenarios.
So my bodyalways, it's like the canary in my internalcombi.
And it'slike,like,dude, you think you've got to dialthen, but I'm about to tell you youdon't.
And it does something to basically say you need to actually stop and make somechanges.
Yeah, it reminds me of thatbook,right?
The body keeps the score and alwaysdoes.
Yeah,exactly. Even intrauma, like things happen when we're young and we don't know how to handlethem.
So we move on and weadapt.
And peoplesay,like, why would you ever go back to whatever happened a long timeago?
But if something triggers that experience in your relationship 20 yearslater, it's as if it was rightthere,right?
Wedon't, it doesn't feel like a longtime.
Go, it feels like it's right here rightnow.
And so the body does keep thescore.
And that's why even though I'm giving people aquick, youknow, assessment and intake so they can figure out whether they're having a netgain, thatdrain.
The most important piece is that you also answer the questions but pay attention to yourbody.
So we'lltalk. The other ones are muchquicker,mental, mentalenergy.
So this is about how you form yourthoughts.
So youhave, you have really mastered this with this mindsetexperience,right?
That you have figuredout.
But ifsomething, youknow, doesn't go the way youplanned, are you someone who makes it aboutyou, personalizesit?
I wonder what I didwrong.
Are you someone who blames otherpeople?
You did somethingwrong?
Or are you someone whosays, ohgosh, I hope they're stuck intraffic.
I hope the planelanded.
I hope and you pick something bigger than the two ofyou.
Okay. Do youproject? Do you personalize project orgeneralize?
So a lot of times people have patterns that they fall into that they've adaptedto.
And how you do this really matters because the truth is usually there's something that's your part ofit.
There's something that someone else is part ofit.
And there's something in thesituation.
That's thetruth. And so there's judgments and comparisons that we spend our lives judging ourselves against otherpeople.
If you dothat, that's going to be a netdrain.
There's the thoughts on repeat in your head that you want to figureout, which is when you're justshowering, when you're onthe, youknow, on arun, if you're driving down thehighway, whatever itis, what are the thoughts that you you have running onrepeat?
And are those net games or netdrains?
They're kind of in thebackground.
You might not even noticethem.
So we have approximately 70,000 thoughts perday.
90 to95% of them are the same asyesterday.
That'sunbelievable. So this is why it's a little hard to change ourmind.
And it's also why crises burn out unexpectedevents, jar us out of our patterns ofthinking.
So that's why patients in the hospital were always open to hearing me talk about things like this because they were in a setting they never expected to bein.
Youknow, so youknow, paying attention to yourthoughts, how you formthem, all ofthat.
And then at theend, you got to also align as you're answeringthis, you have to align your body with theseexperiences.
Emotionalenergy. This is an easyone,right?
Toassess. We're talking here abouttears,anger,anxiety, how well do you handle them in yourself andothers?
Trauma griefloss, apologiesforgiveness.
How good are you not just withothers, but at forgiving and apologizing toyourself?
And how well do you infuse joy and play into yourdays?
And so emotional energy can be assessed pretty simply byasking, tell me where in your life you are avoiding challenging conversations or difficultemotions.
Is itpersonally? Is itprofessionally?
Is itfinancially? Isit, youknow, where where isthis?
Because if you can check thatoff, you know exactly where you're having a net drain of emotionalenergy.
Flipside. What areas are bringing you joy and play and youknow, pleasure and enjoymenthere,right?
And so that's a quick one where you can just look at it and then you check in with your body and you know whether you have a net gain or drain of energyemotionally.
Socialenergy, or at the last twonow, socialenergy.
This is a quickone, but let me tell you what itentails.
Power andhierarchy, whether it's in the boardroom of thebedroom, we're all doingit, we'renavigating,right?
What'shappening?Agreements, settingexpectations, making clear agreements and drawing healthyboundaries.
How good are you at thatsocially?
So it's knowing what you need in the face ofanother.
How well do you navigatethat?
Healthyconflict. When there'sconflict, do you expressit?
Do you hold itin? Do youexplode?
What happensthere? That and when you're upset or disappointed with someoneelse, do you talk about them or do you talk tothem?
That's the dramatriangle.
So there's all these ways that we look at how are you navigating your socialenergy?
Well, how do I ask it in the burnoutassessment?
Prettyeasy. Write down for me the top five people or groups of people you spend the most time with online or inperson.
And once you do pay attention to your body as you're writing themin.
Is itconstricted,tight,heavy?
Is itopen,relaxed, andlight?
Now, I understand that people can be a mix of things like you can get joy from someone who makes youcrazy,right?
Family. Oh myGod. And there is a net gain or a net drain that goes onhere.
And so you just want to allow your body to help you where your mind is trying to getconfused.
You just always check in with yourbody.
And thenlastly, aspiritual.
So spiritualenergy. This is about what youvalue.
And people said tome, why on earth did you make spiritual energy part of a businessbook?
Well, because I think it's the most important energy thereis.
It's about our highestvalues.
It's about what matters tous.
It's about why we get up every day and do the thing that we'redoing.
Why do we put all this energyforth?
What's the difference we want to make in theworld?
Once you know what youvalue, here's thekicker.
You can make quick and effective decisions in a world moving fast with a lot ofunknowns.
Because now you have data from inside you that helps yousay,well, I really value health overfinances.
So I'm going to invest the money because it has to do with myhealth.
Even if I don't know what it's going tobe,right?
So it helps you make quick and effectivedecisions.
The other thing spiritually that's really important in a world moving as fast as ours is I think the people that are going to do the best from here on out thecompanies, the societies that are going to do the best are going to be the ones who have the highest levels of self trust and agility and selftrust.
Meaning the question I'm going to ask you around thatis, tell me where you'll take risks and tell me where you won't because that'll tell me where you trust yourself and where youdon't.
And forme, I'd say I take risksmentally,emotionally,socially,spiritually,entrepreneurly,financially.
But in mylife, I have not taken risks physically andromantically.
And so right away when I answer thosequestions, you should be able to know immediately where I trust myself and where Idon't.
So I'm not the one bungee jumping orskydiving,right?
Out of aplane. Those physical risks aren't the ones that Itake.
Andromantically, Imean, now I have a boyfriend of fiveyears.
But beforethat, I was pretty averse to all ofit.
And so I thinkthere's, it will give you a lot of information about your own levels of selftrust.
Then there's reconnecting to purpose and meaning and feeling valued both at work and athome.
And so the spiritual aspect of it is really about how do we navigate the unknown andmystery?
And when all elsefails, we have apandemic.
When the world is not as weexpected, you have a heartattack, a stroke inpneumonia.
What do you have faithin?
Is itscience? Is ithumanity?
Is it the nextgeneration?
Is it yourreligion? Is it yourfaith?
Like, whatever itis, you need to know what it is that you draw upon when the world is not what you think itis.
And we'll be right back after word from oursponsors.
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I'm fascinated by just naming conventionlinguistics.
We've a different company that goes into that in a lot of different ways but it's interesting to me that you chose the word spiritual for that the fifth energy because as you describe me and get a lot of the work that you do actually is in the domain oforganizations.
And oftentimes you walk in the door and like that word can raise eyebrows or even repelpeople.
But then when you the way that you describe spiritual energy is actually in a very practicalway.
Like it's like you're now you're using language to say oh wait aminute.
Okay so so values and purpose and okay these are things that we can connect to but also I wonder if a lot of people don't when they first hear the phrase think of spiritual energy in that way it's almost like you're reclaiming it and saying this is what I mean when I say this and let me give you the practical nuggets the ingredients of this you know spiritual energy the way that I'm talking aboutit.
The other thing that I'm really curious about is so when as you're going through each one of these five different energies and you know sort of like starting out as well let's use this as a diagnostic framework but also let's use it as a therapeuticframework.
You know we can talk about all and if you see you know I'm low on this or I'm high on this you know like it's it's a net drain or net positive that's a sign A that I want to focus onthat.
And the each of the individual components that you mentioned under them are also they point you in the direction of quote what to do in order to feel better and in your book you list just a ton of different exercises and strategies and tools to actually get into but what was interesting to me also is that okay so you have a whole bunch of questions to ask yourself but at the end of the day like your ultimate question is let me tap back into my body and sense like I need to just sense is this a net positive or net negative is it giving me energy or taking energy so you're pulling it away from the cognitive part of the exploration and saying I need to feel that so many people do not feel their bodies anymore like we live from the head up so I imagine you must come across this on a pretty regular basis when people are like I can't really tell you you know you're asking me to actually kind of like feel this thing I like energetically is a net positive or net negative like I don't know I would imagine that comes up in in different language in different ways fairly often like how might you guide somebody to reconnect with that sense so they can get the wisdom of that sensation yeah it's a great question and that I begin by saying congratulations you are a master of the external world because that means they have successfully tuned out like I had done and they were in full service to what our society teaches us to do and then what I do is if that's where they're focused my job I this is like a little lipstick case it's like its own thing but I use like an arapod case anything a smooth stone anything in the world fits comfortably in your hand and I ask them during meetings during an experience to please hold on to this and then when something shifts something unexpected happens if I were to be asking you how do you feel that in your body and you would say I don't know what I ask them to do is to tell me that they can feel this in their hand once they do this four or five times all of a sudden they'll say oh my gosh my back is really tight oh my god I have this thing at the base of my head like I have a headache and so what I do is I use the outside world that they're so tuned into to bring it in and have them literally have something concrete to hold on to and you know of all the different industries and you know people that I've worked with the most tuned out that I have found has been oncologists literally cancer doctors who have to meet every patient with the possibility that they might die and their need to just get out of themselves and focus on this human being in front of them without needing to feel and I don't know what chapters and maybe 12 13 14 something like that I literally take you through this with an oncology group where I have to help and the reason I knew this person was experiencing something was because he would flush and turn red and then I'd say what just happened and he'd say nothing and I'd say no no it's clearly something is happening no nothing and it must have been I don't know almost 20 years ago that I came up with this okay hold on a minute I need you to hold on to something and if you're gonna tell me nothing I need you to feel this and that's how I started to understand that sometimes I need to bring the external world to your body have you feel gravity pulling your bottom down on the chair the chair supporting you your feet on the floor because when someone's in their body they can't be spiraling out in the future in anxiety anxiety is a failed attempt to control the future so what you do is you bring everything back because when you right now I'd ask everybody listening if you take a nice slow deep breath and you become really aware of your ribcage expanding and contracting with your next breath you can't be anywhere but here in this moment right now because you're in your body and so the secret is our mind can go to the past and regret it can go to the future and keep us up at night it can run in loops and do all these things but the way you get out of that loop is by getting in your body your body not only keeps the score it's your connection to intuition it is your connection to interknowing it is your way to be present in the world right here right now we have all these escapes but the secret the secret is the body now that resonates so deeply and for me that practice for years has been mindfulness and breathing you know breathing is for me a short-term intervention that takes me from my head like draw me right back down into the physical part of it very quickly and can also like pretty rapidly downregulate my nervous system if needed and then the mindfulness practice is certainly the more long-term intervention like this is not something that works overnight but over a period of months or years or decades you know it teaches you how to constantly check in notice where you are and then come back to where you want to orient your attention and your tentiveness but I love this sort of like the idea of you taking a physical object placing it in somebody's hand and using that as sort of like a mechanism or somebody to reconnect to their physicality using an external object and that over time when you repeatedly do that it starts to just ripple through their body it's like oh I'm holding this thing in my hand but I notice this thing over here that didn't really notice before it's fascinating I love sort of like the idea of using that mechanism because it's so accessible also you know it's somebody anyone can do it and they can feel it relatively quickly so it's not not saying hey do this practice which you know like you're gonna struggle with probably shame and blame yourself with for like months eventually you might feel something no no which was my journey with mindfulness like it didn't come easily so yeah I love the work around yeah yeah feels like a good place for us to come full circle on this conversation as well you know I think you give us a really good framework to really understand this experience that so many of us have and we'll certainly we'll drop a link to the quiz so that people can actually go through this and do it yourself and actually figure out like you know what's really going on and for sure great tools and strategies in the book as well if we zoom the lens out in this conversation you know in the context of good life project if I offer out the phrase to live a good life what comes up I'd say you'd want to lead from the inside out you'd want to be aligned meaning you know what you value and what you think and how you feel and the action and conversation you create in the world is aligned from that true place and probably the ultimate answer to living a good life to me is that the word sacred exchange is coming to me that I feel like I just had a sacred exchange with you that there's that alignment that that we talk about what matters to us that we trust ourselves enough to tread closely to our hearts and that every exchange we have is meaningful to ourselves and to each other and that the ones that don't go the way that we want them to go their lessons in life school and we're going to use them and we're going to do better next time so it's about grace and compassion but really alignment and sacredexchanges.
Thank you so much you are so welcome it's been such an honor to be withyou.
