My name is Bella and I'm the assistant producer on The Imperfects.
I'm the descendant of Russian and English migrants who journeyed to Australia during the Second World War.
I grew up on the border of Wadarung and Eastern Mar country, inspired by their care for the natural world as I explored the land near my home.
Here at The Imperfects, we acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land where our podcast is recorded.
We extend our respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded.
Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.
A value is a lens of which we look through life.
It is so much harder to live into our values than it is to tell other people how they should be living theirs.
Weaponising values are when we have a particular value and we think that's how everyone else should be.
I value kindness.
How then do you move towards a position where people are kinder to each other?
Well, you can't make people kinder to each other.
No.
But you can do kind things.
So many people do this.
Values work and they make it about what I should be as opposed to what are the things that will have me lead a life that resonates with who I am.
Could a family have values?
Yeah, we have family values.
Family values and an album.
Yes, it was, I think, corn.
Well, you don't often get a guest here for the third time, which is a charm.
Kemi, it's so exciting whenever you're here.
Oh, I feel excited to be here with you all again.
We love you so much.
Love you too.
Our Lord and Saviour is back.
Oh, my gosh.
That got pretty intense pretty quickly.
Not in a religious way, just in a phrase way.
In a cool way.
Yeah, no, it was totally cool.
Super cool.
Please welcome our Lord and Saviour, Kemi Nekwapili.
No pressure.
Just light and breezy.
Informal chat.
Easy, easy.
Well, there's a very good raise in your back Kemi, because you have a book, an incredible book, that is out now, Grounded Success.
Hugh, let's give everyone a little quick introduction.
Can I read some stuff?
Yep, as long as it's related to Camus.
Just some stuff.
The AFL was founded in 18...
Well, I'll just say something first before I start reading.
She's an executive coach.
She's a personal coach.
Highly sought after.
Also a highly sought after international speaker, facilitator of The Hunger Project Australia and podcast host of The Shift series.
Kemi studied leadership and purpose at the Gross National Happiness Centre in Bhutan and is a former Dare to Lead facilitator, where she trained with Brené Brown.
Kemi has published The Gift of Asking, A Woman's Guide to Owning Her Wants and Needs Without Guilt.
Power, A Woman's Guide to Living and Leading Without Apology.
And by the time this episode's come out, as well as Grounded Success, A Woman's Guide to Cultivating Success on Her Own Terms.
In very small font, it also says men can also read this.
Yes.
One thing I found- That actually doesn't say that.
No, but that is- I'm reading between the lines.
This is the thing.
There are many men that read my books and send me beautiful emails about what they got from reading it.
So yes, men and non-binary people are also allowed to read the book.
Yes.
Yeah.
For some reason, I don't know why, it makes me emotional.
Aww.
In advance of.
I haven't even read it yet, but I feel, I think it's the time I've spent with you and how impactful it's been on us as a team.
So to know that we can take this away and just, well, not this one because it's the first copy.
Yeah, you don't get that one.
In time, we will get to be moved and become better because of it.
Thank you, Hugh.
We are, yeah, we're very excited to have you back.
Beautiful.
And there is like a, because we have spent a lot of time with you over the last couple of years, even outside of the actual podcast or live shows.
And that was because we as a team wanted to figure out what our values are.
And there's a whole chapter about values in the new book.
Do you mind just explaining the work, the values work that you do?
Yeah, what I love to do is values work because for me it's the anchor point for most of us.
And what I have found in my work is that when organisations are willing to take the time to bring as many people into a room together and work out individual values first, it creates synergy, it creates connection, it creates vulnerability and everyone has buy-in to actually connecting with each other.
Then we go to, and now, what are our company values?
Mm.
So the people maybe that are on the lower level of leadership, that don't really feel they have a voice or a say in those rooms, suddenly they have a connection with every single level in that room and then they feel that they are part of it and then everyone is engaged and connected to the company values.
And that is what creates culture.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
But you were like, let them in.
Yeah.
I was like, I think it's important.
It's important.
Yeah.
I'm glad.
I'm glad.
Yeah.
Actually, maybe like hierarchy could be one of my values.
Yeah.
I mean for us when we did it, it felt like a real bonding, an opportunity to get to know each other in a way that you maybe otherwise wouldn't.
Yeah, it's kind of a trust exercise.
It doesn't include people falling into each other in various ways.
Yeah, I was surprised when no one caught me.
Yeah, well, that's right, because it's not within the values.
It should have been, though.
Anyway, we can talk about what the values turned out to be.
I think without those discussions that we had, They're just words.
Like without.
For me, if I see those words and I have no memory of all the brilliant discussions and how we got there to me they yeah, they're just words on a wall, and they're always.
There's only so many words that can be.
So it ends up becoming generic by nature.
Yeah.
But without being involved in that conversation, they don't hit.
And then once you've had those conversations, I know why we got there.
I know more about the people I work with.
Yes.
It's a, it was such a great experience.
And just to clarify for everyone when you say words you mean like the words that are values that we kind of got to in the end.
Because we did do a values episode with Dr M last year, which was really, really amazing and such a good kind of like entry point into what values are, I guess.
But this will be a lot more in depth.
Yeah.
And I guess some people who listened to that episode maybe took on some values, potentially got stuck along the way or hit a roadblock and don't have Dr M's phone number so they can't call her and ask her what to do.
Just text me.
I'll send you the number.
That's right.
Why doesn't anyone have her number?
Would you put that in show notes?
Show notes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. M's number and home address.
Noted.
And so hopefully, we're not going to give out your number, but hopefully... That's great.
Thank you.
Hopefully, what we cover in the next little bit will help people become ironically, to use M's words help them become unstuck in their values work.
Because I just...
So, yeah, knowing what you cover, I think this will be incredibly helpful for people.
And it is such a great thing to do to assign yourself values and to live by them.
So is it helpful for us to talk, say what our values are and then discuss them through all the points where you can go wrong in choosing your values?
Yeah, that's good, because I thought as well it would be great to share some of the processes, especially when we all came together, like kind of how people found the process of doing it, because I think sometimes we think the idea of values is like it's going to be just this really joyous work.
But actually it really takes some thought and some feeling.
Like if I were to navigate the world, you know, the world of my life.
With this value Would I lay my head down on my pillow tonight with a sense of integrity?
But no matter what happened through the day, I showed up living through the lens of my values.
That would be a dream day.
Yeah.
And it is.
Yes.
Which is why it goes in with success.
Because when we subscribe to an idea of success that's out there to be got to one day, we miss the fact of I just lived in a value aligned day today.
I lived in my values today.
That was a successful day today, regardless of what's happening externally.
And it's often like now that you've said that there are days that feel really good and you can't necessarily pinpoint.
Oh, that was fun to do that.
But probably what it is when it feels really good is like oh, you just accidentally lived in alignment with your values.
Exactly right.
I actually had a great day yesterday and this morning, when I was doing my morning journaling, I was writing out the things that had it be a great day yesterday and it was all value aligned.
Like it was all just little bits of things that have meaning and value to me, and that's what made yesterday a great day.
Love it.
Do we want to talk about – would you say what our own values were?
Yeah, so maybe we'll go through individual – like we did on the day.
We'll go through individual values first today.
Yep.
And then out of that you can – we found our company values last time and maybe that's the order.
We'll do that today.
Okay.
The imperfect values, yeah.
Right.
Okay, well, I can start.
So mine the value that immediately came to mind for me, because in your book and when you did the session with us, you kind of give us a list of like 90 different potential values and you sort of look at them and see which ones connect with you the most.
And immediately the one that I chose as the first one was creativity.
Yeah.
And I remember thinking like, well, I love being creative.
So creativity, definitely, that'll definitely be one.
And that went in.
And then eventually, then I, for reasons we'll go into later, but eventually creativity was actually not, is not, one of my values.
It's care, courage and croissants.
And croissants was not one of the 90.
No, that's 91.
That's 91.
The reason it's probably not a traditional value, but what it sort of represents, I guess, is a reminder to me to have the croissant.
So, whether that be, do the fun thing, meet up with your friend, even if you think you haven't got time, or you think you shouldn't because you're trying to eat well, or whatever the reasons may be.
It's sort of like a reminder of life is short, do the fun thing.
Yeah, and I'm stuck on the fact of not having the croissant because you're trying to eat well.
Surely that's... Yeah.
Eating croissants is eating well.
Yeah, well, it is.
Exactly.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, I do know what you mean.
Yeah, yeah.
So they're mine.
Yeah, beautiful.
I can't remember what mine were.
What the original were, which is a good sign.
Yeah, because I couldn't pick them.
I found it, as you said before, it wasn't necessarily like really fun activity.
I found it quite stressful.
Yeah.
And I've always been shocking at making decisions and this is a classic case of me like wanting to –
Actually, probably wanting to get them perfect.
And so I couldn't quite nail them.
And I put some down that I was like, I think these will be good and people will like them.
And then they just didn't stick.
So I redid them yesterday as an exercise.
I haven't said these out loud to anyone.
But curiosity, flexibility and self-compassion.
I know someone who's about to believe my ghost stories.
Flexibility and curiosity.
It's true.
Even our values have a limit.
Yeah, but our values sometimes have a limit when it comes to siblings.
When it comes to siblings' stories, then the values go out the window.
Oh, they're really good, Josh.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Now I want them.
Well, yeah, and that's the other thing.
And it's great because there's one already that I feel is not a red flag, but a pink flag that I'd like to.
Awesome.
Yeah.
Should we wait and hear yours first?
Yeah, so I also didn't remember them.
Yep, that's feedback.
But every morning, when I do breath work, there's a question after answer is what is your intention today or how do you want to be today?
And amazingly, those three things that's what I say continually to myself like be present when you're with someone, really connect with them and look for fun moments.
So I have actually been doing them.
So I think it actually did – sink in subconsciously on that day.
We did them because it's or maybe it's just that's what I feel, like I really maybe they're a little bit too aspirational, because it's like I think that's what I have to do.
I have to do that.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
So what would you say the three word that you got to?
Connection.
Yep.
Or connected.
Yep.
Present.
Yep.
And fun.
Okay, great.
Okay, great.
Nice.
What are yours?
What are mine?
Well, I've just changed mine recently.
So I've had the same, well, I've changed them probably a year ago.
So I've had the same values for about eight years, which were or are well-being, connection and growth.
And well-being and connection, I don't think they are ever going to change.
But actually growth has become cultivation.
So cultivating relationships, cultivating writing, literally cultivating the earth, as a flower farmer now cultivating spaces that, just for me, had a little bit more expansion than growth.
So that's what my three are.
Right.
Okay, so should we go back to Josh?
Yeah.
And just see.
So what were the three that you have decided?
Curiosity, flexibility, and self-compassion.
Okay, so my two questions are around self-compassion and flexibility.
Yeah.
Because I think curiosity... seems to sit right.
Does it sit right for you?
Well, yeah, it's funny you picked those because curiosity just feels like lock it in.
Like that's done.
But can I?
Because I remember when we did the session Kemi.
I remember, and this was the reason that I dropped creativity, because creativity, I realised, was like well, I don't need reminding.
No, because you are creative.
It's part of who you are.
It's in me.
But for me, I would say curiosity is the same for you.
Or is that, am I wrong?
No, I think if I think about when I'm at my best and my happiest, it's when I've got a sort of unjudgmental curiosity about stuff.
And for me, curiosity in its purest is lacking all judgment and you just want to learn what's going on.
And I love it.
Yeah, right.
So then tell me about self-compassion.
See, this one's complicated, but it's mainly because I wanted to have compassion.
But I think I'm pretty compassionate to people and I don't think it's something I need to focus on because I think it sort of comes with being me, whereas I think I'm shocking at being compassionate to myself.
Yep.
So I think allowing myself more self-compassion would lead to a happier life.
Okay.
So the thing that's interesting about that which is why I question that, because obviously I listen to the show and everything is that that could be what I would term a Val rule.
Okay.
So it's actually a rule, not a value.
It's I should be more self-compassionate to myself.
Yeah, okay.
Yes.
The word that came up for me ironically, was actually care like that.
There may be other words within there, but it's not about you.
I need to be something different than I am.
It's more a case of if I gave myself or if I lived through the lens of this.
Self-compassion may come in there, but that's not actually what it is.
And it's only for you to feel it.
So even though with Ryan saying, oh, I'm not sure about curiosity, you know, no, no, no, 100%.
That is it.
It's locked in.
But it's you being mindful.
Could the idea of having the value of self-compassion actually become a stick that you beat yourself with?
I should be more compassionate.
Yes.
Yeah, very much so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like I could self-weaponize it.
You self-weaponize.
I didn't have that as a subtitle.
Self-weaponization.
Yeah.
So, you know, this idea of actually being careful that our...
So many people do this.
Values work and they make it about what I should be, who I should be, who I hope to be, as opposed to what are the things that will have me lead a life that resonates with who I am.
So it's not that our values make something out there that we have to pull towards us.
They're already there.
We just haven't necessarily brought them up and named them.
And then when we think of them, it's like, yeah, that is actually who I am.
I have found that confusing in the past of like why self-compassion is a rule and not a value, because it's something that has to be imposed as a judgment of me to be better, as opposed to revealing something in me that is good enough.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And even the fact that you added the self like.
That was the kind of little, that was the little future flag for me.
I'm compassionate to other people, but I'm not to myself.
So therefore I should be more compassionate to myself.
So therefore my value is self-compassion.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So now you're down to two.
I don't know how you're going to go now.
Flexibility and...
Yeah, tell me about flexibility just quickly.
Can I touch your toes?
Purely.
I actually, as we started recording I don't know if it's a weird thing to bring up I got a back spasm.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, yeah, I wish I was more flexible because I'm in a bit of pain at the moment.
But flexibility is that I... I'm going to go back and listen to the noise Ryan just made then.
I'll do that when I listen to this episode.
Oh.
Oh.
It was quite genuinely caring.
Caring, yeah.
Care.
Care.
Certainly wasn't a croissant.
Yeah, the flexibility is that I how do I say this so you won't say it's wrong?
I can already feel like it's wrong.
We are going to tease you so much.
Let's get curious about that.
What is it that you can feel is wrong?
It's because I think I know it's that I'm aspiring to be more flexible in my life.
Like I think of an example would be in parenting, when I'm trying to get my three-year-old to put their pants on and they're just refusing to, causing every issue in the world to stop me from putting these effing pants on.
Very powerful three-year-olds.
Very powerful.
Very powerful.
Yeah, very powerful.
Flexibility in that moment would be an ability to joke laugh, not get stuck on an emotion, my anger and frustration rising.
It would be the ability to step outside the situation for a moment and think it's not really a big deal.
Don't get so angry.
Yeah, have fun with this.
Be flexible or creative and come up with an idea that actually bonds you together in this moment rather than causes a wedge because you're frustrated.
And I think about, like in all aspects of life, am I getting stuck on my own preconceptions of what this situation should be or am I being flexible to moving with what's happening and what's going on so I benefit and everyone benefits?
It's so interesting, isn't it?
Because it's not obviously my role to share with you, but I'll share with you what was coming up when you were saying that.
Curiosity could be an umbrella value where flexibility sits in there.
Oh, yeah.
Because curiosity requires us to be flexible because... Open-minded.
Open-minded.
Yeah.
Can you talk a bit more about umbrella values?
So the way that I talk about it in the book and when I work with clients is that there's 90 and people can add more like croissants.
And then I ask people to get them to 10, first of all.
And it's so great to see people say, oh, yeah, a bit of care.
Oh, yeah, a bit of love.
Yeah, I had a little bit of integrity.
Yeah, yeah, connection, you know, so people do their 10 and then we sometimes work on it.
They come back in the next session with their five.
We then go through the five and it's in the five that I find the umbrella values come up.
So let's just say that somebody has curiosity, flexibility and adaptability as their five.
And my question would be, is it possible to have flexibility without curiosity, for example?
Yeah.
No, I don't think it is.
Okay.
Is it possible to have curiosity without adaptability?
These questions mix with my head.
Yeah, they mix with mine too.
Is it possible to have curiosity without adaptability?
My brain is like saying... It's an absolute robot.
It's like I can see a guy just shrugging.
And this is the thing.
Even asking those questions, I have to sort of stay tuned in on them as well.
And there's no right answers.
Josh is deep in thought.
There's no right answers.
It's just when people choose these values that are quite close together...
Because sometimes what happens in me asking those questions, so can you be curious and not flexible?
Can you be adaptable and not curious?
Can you be flexible and not?
Once we have those questions.
My man just fell over.
Then you have a sense of it might be, oh, curiosity is the umbrella for all of that.
Yep.
Yep.
Covers it all.
It covers it all.
Yeah.
So I find it a lot with people that are really into their health and they may say health.
But then sometimes for some of us for me, I had health as one of mine when I did mine, you know, over a decade ago now, or something.
But then I realised actually it was wellbeing.
Now, I need to make a caveat.
I'm not talking about wellness, which is something completely different and, I believe, has a pretty big shadow side to it right now.
This is about being a wellbeing.
And so for me...
Just to have that health as a value was more kind of like my physical body and illness and disease.
But well-being is about the media that I have inputted into my life, the people that I spend my time with, how I'm creative in the world.
That makes me a well-being.
So if I just had health, that wouldn't cover any of that.
Yeah, so I get what you mean, like literally being a well-being.
Yeah, being a well-being, not about buying wellness, but being a well-being.
And I guess that could look different for everyone.
Absolutely, absolutely yeah.
Which kind of then leads us onto weaponising values and how that can be?
Weaponising values are when we have a particular value and we think that's how everyone else should be.
Oh.
Okay?
I feel like there's a lot of weaponising values going on online at the moment.
Yes, 100%.
And it doesn't...
It doesn't lead to happiness.
It just leads to suffering for everyone.
And I suppose, a story that I can share from my personal life around.
That was I.
This was many, many years ago and I had been seriously betrayed by a friend and I was speaking to another friend about this betrayal and I was incredibly upset.
Like I was crying and I just said, I cannot believe she did this and all these things.
And this friend said to me, you think everyone should be loyal, don't you?
And I was like, yes, everyone should be loyal, blah, blah, blah.
She just said, no, they don't.
And it was a real moment for me of realising I value loyalty.
It's not one of my three core values, but I value loyalty.
But it doesn't mean that everyone else around me has to be loyal.
Yeah, that's a really tough pill to swallow.
Well, that's then where boundaries come into place.
Okay.
Because it's...
And I've never been able to put it in an eloquent way like that, but I think I've often had a bit of an issue with how not even about values, but just how if someone is a very kind person and naturally very compassionate, and then if someone else does something that is a bit unthoughtful or cruel, they cannot believe that this person would do that.
That's like, because you're not them.
They're not you.
You just got to accept that they're just not kind like you are.
Yeah.
Or they're not you.
And this is the thing is that this is a huge part of coaching.
I have to be curious.
I can't go in with judgments about my clients.
You know, I have to be curious.
They'll say something to me, which I might think, wow, that's... whatever it is.
But my question is, tell me more about that.
How do you feel about that?
Why do you think?
Because this is actually where compassion is built in us being able to ask the questions where we don't understand somebody else's behavior, as opposed to weaponizing our values and putting them onto other people and then othering people and making them wrong.
The only agency we have is living into our values as individuals.
That's all we have.
And then how other people decide to act around us.
You know, I know we all know this intellectually, but I'm going to say it anyway.
We don't have much control over other people, not even three-year-olds.
We want to.
I was 10 years into my marriage until I turned to my husband and sort of said oh, this is who you are.
What had he just done?
No nothing, but just that thing of like oh, I've spent these years trying to a little bit of this, maybe a little bit of that, maybe he could be a bit more this, and then I'll be a bit less this, you know.
And he turned around to me around the same time and was like oh, this is who you are, where you stop projecting onto the other person and can just be with the other person.
But then, like if I'm in a situation say work, or maybe work's a good one in that I think this room this is definitely not the case for our office but imagining a situation where I think I value kindness and I think this whole office could do with a bit more kindness to each other.
Yep.
How then, do you move towards a position where people are kinder to each other, or is that the wrong question?
Well, you can't make people kinder to each other.
No.
No.
But you can do kind things.
So if your value is kindness, the question then becomes, what is kindness in this situation?
And it could be calling everyone within the office together, within the team together, and just saying I am feeling that we could be more kind to each other.
What are other people thinking and feeling?
That's it.
Yeah.
You know?
It's just occurred to me that I think you, for my, something I've always admired about you is that I think you are brilliant at kindness and many things in humour, and I think you're so good at just doing it in front of people and providing an example of that, and not sort of like trying to get people to be like you if that makes sense, and then they work out a way to do it in their own way.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, 100%.
Because actually if you're to name that, that's actually called manipulation.
To try and make people do it.
Yeah, to try and make people do things.
Yeah, and I think it's why people enjoy being around you so much is that you provide an example of.
You're never trying to get other people to be you or do this thing, but you just provide an example of something that looks nice.
By doing it.
By doing it, and it's nice to be around.
It's lovely.
Hugh, was there a moment when you thought that Kemi was saying that you're manipulative?
Yeah, the way that I thought that too.
I don't think that's what she's saying.
No, no, no.
It's not.
It's not.
But there was a moment where I thought I reckon you would have thought hang on.
Is she just saying that?
I was just thinking, no, now we have the high Lord and Saviour.
I can pass on the baton now.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, great.
That is very true.
Yeah.
And is that like the difference between manipulation and like modelling, for example?
Yeah, 100%.
It is so much harder to live into our values than it is to tell other people how they should be living theirs.
Oh, that is such a good point.
You should be doing this.
You should be doing that.
Why aren't you doing this?
Why aren't you doing that?
And actually, you know, I love the idea of the finger pointing to everyone else.
There's three pointing back at you.
It's like maybe just check yourself before you start going out and telling everyone else how they should be living and what they should be doing.
It may mean that if that person is destructive or whatever is happening for them, that you don't spend as much time with them, or no time with them, depending on you know what the relationship is.
But actually our area of control is how we govern ourselves in the world.
I don't know why I use the word govern.
That's what just came.
Sounds great.
Yeah, does it?
What?
Conduct.
Navigate.
Yeah.
All words that I've never used in my life.
That's the thing about words, there's so many to use.
There's heaps.
We've got to get rid of some.
You can't get them all.
Can I ask about in the book you talk about aspirational values?
Yeah.
That feels like when it's said, oh, that could only be a good thing.
Yeah.
Well, the thing about aspirational values is once again they're outside of you.
So it's something that you're kind of grasping for and I wish I was more.
I wish I was more as opposed to I am.
So aspirational, there's no kind of end to aspirational values.
And depending on who you are and what one's temperament is, aspirational values can once again lead into self-weaponization.
I should be more organized.
I should be more kind.
I should be, you know, I've worked with clients who said, I should be kinder.
I'm like, you don't have to be.
Is that kind of like what you're saying?
It's sort of the reverse of how we judge other people's values to not be good enough or in alignment with what yours are, but then this is more like you're judging your own values.
Yeah, you're judging your own self, yeah, by saying it should be something else.
Yeah, yeah.
And I tell you as well, another great way apart from having the list or any kind of values lists another great way to understand what we value is when other people's behaviours have some sort of trigger or some irritation for us.
So it could be that we're constantly around someone that is unkind and isn't generous and you're just like oh, sometimes that can be a clue of I really value kindness.
Mm-hmm.
And that is why I'm struggling with that person.
But instead of trying to change that person, it becomes how can I be kinder to that person?
How can I be kinder to that person?
Well, that is if you use that method, as your brother, Josh, I can think of things straight away.
Like I know what triggers you in other people.
Yeah.
And that leads me to what your values.
Could.
Well, the first value I think of is humility.
Like if someone is not humble, your head explodes.
Not actually, but it really happens a lot.
But it's interesting though.
Because I remember that came up though.
I remember when we were doing the personal value, humility came up and I think we did take it off of the table at that point because Josh was humble.
Do you remember that idea of he is it?
Yeah.
So this is where I'm a bit confused, because we were saying before it needs to be who you are at your core.
Yeah, yeah.
That's what I think he is at his core.
Or is it like what's the point in having it when he already lives and breathes it?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So you should have a value that you live and breathe already or you shouldn't?
No.
So a value is a lens of which we look through life.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I give you an example.
At one point, one of my values was commitment.
But as I was being more and more committed, which meant saying no to some things, putting boundaries in place I realised oh, I just am now a committed person.
When I say yes to something...
I'm a yes.
And when I'm a no, I'm a no.
So then commitment suddenly wasn't a value of mine.
I'd kind of, what I call, I kind of absorbed the value.
So then, for me, having my three current values are the current lens of which I'm looking through life.
And it was interesting what Josh said about wanting to get the perfect ones.
Our values change as we change.
That's good to know.
Yes.
So you can change them.
I mean, probably not weekly.
That could be confusing.
But I redo my values every year.
I just check in.
Do these still feel like the lens that I want to navigate the world with?
Gotcha.
Yeah.
And it's not.
You know this values work is well.
Maybe there is science behind it, but it is very much more of a.
This is a tool that is used within coaching often and in other modalities that many, many people find helpful, which is why it's so mainstream in the language.
Know your values.
You just need to know your values, but most people don't.
You know I can speak to audiences of thousands and I will ask is anyone in here?
Could anyone in here stand up right now and tell me their three core values?
And generally, whether it's 2000 people or 200, one to two people will stand up that can name them in that moment.
So then my question becomes if you're not navigating your life through your values, what are you using?
Like what's the compass?
Yeah.
Well, I find I get lost.
Yeah, we get pulled.
We get distracted.
We don't really know.
We're doing what we think other people want us to do.
And it's possible to show up and have our values.
And it's not that we don't get distracted, but we have something to come back to.
Yeah, I remember Dr M in her episode on values.
She did talking about how it's a direction that you move towards as opposed to a destination.
Yeah.
And I feel like, if I think about my last year and my life, really drifting off course is a very gradual process and you don't notice that you're off course until you're quite off course.
Yeah. that I'm like, I'm in a place here where I'm just not feeling great, in a bit of a funk.
And I look back and I think there's a lot of things that have been missing, that I've been sort of going.
I'm all right.
I'm getting through.
I'm working hard.
Things are good.
And I think if I was more clear on some of these values, it would help me to check in each day that I'm not starting to drift off course.
Yeah, 100%.
Or when we do drift off course, we can actually go –
I was so out of my value set when I said yes to that thing.
And then we get – there's the curiosity.
The curiosity isn't I should have.
I'm not living into my values.
The curiosity is why.
Why did I allow myself to be – and no one's doing anything to us.
Why did I allow myself to be pulled out of my value set?
And it's generally stuff that the ego – wants us to do.
Whatever that is, you know, it's either because it looks good, or they this, or they expected of me, or it could be duty, it could be all of these things, and we all have areas in our life where we have duty and responsibility.
It's just that if that stacks up more than anything else in our life, it's going to tip, you know, and then we can move um off of the wrong path, like you say.
So some real world examples of like where this could come up in is like obviously, jobs that you're going to do, or you're deciding whether you want to do this job, or work here, or dating this person, or even like going to your I don't know weird uncle's house for Christmas.
Yep.
And you're like, I don't want to go but it feels like a duty.
It's an issue.
Something Charlie and Augie will be saying to themselves this Christmas.
Yeah.
This is for them.
You have to come to your house.
Come to your house, yeah.
You have to go to the weird uncle's house.
He's going to show me all of his runners again.
So if someone is, like invited to a relative's house or a friend's wedding or something like that that they don't want to go to, it doesn't feel like a place they want to be.
However, they know that if they don't go, it will cause ripples within the family or friendship group.
How do you navigate that?
It depends.
Like when I hear that, it's like that could be if your value was courage, right?
It could be.
I'm going to go.
I don't want to, but I don't want to make the statement of not going and the ripple effects of that.
But could it also be courageous to not go?
Yes.
And it could also be connection, like I'm going to go because I want to connect with my wider family.
But it could also go, all I need to do right now is connect with myself.
Whenever I'm in that room with those people, I lose my sense of self and I don't go.
So there isn't, this is the thing about values work.
I think people think once I've got my values and I know all the answers.
No, once we get our values, things get really difficult.
Mm-hmm.
Because people around us can get upset.
We start to change how we're living in the world.
And that has an impact on people.
Sometimes it's positive, sometimes it's negative.
Hopefully it's positive most of the time, but it's not a guarantee.
You know, it's not a guarantee.
It can be, you know, especially if let's just say that you have the value of wellbeing, but they really haven't had that as a value set.
And they know that if they were the particular person, they're just going to be out all night drinking, whatever their thing is.
Then it's like okay, I value this relationship.
And if their other value is connection and one is wellbeing.
Probably the suggestion is I'll meet you for brunch.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
Which is a combination of breakfast and lunch as I've, yeah.
Have you only just recently worked that out?
I love that when that happens though.
There are so many words people say things.
I really loved it when that happened.
Because there's always that moment where you go, this is my thing, this is the curiosity thing.
It's always you don't know what you don't know.
Yes.
So we're in the middle of – what were we just talking about?
Something about brunch.
Before brunch.
Oh, choose brunch.
Go to brunch instead.
Oh yeah, that you would go to brunch instead, because then you get to connect, but also you're looking after your wellbeing.
Yes.
So you're not cutting that person out.
It's not about – it's just like what – if I'm living into my values –
What are my options here?
And I work with people generally, we have three individual values.
And sometimes all three values can be at play.
Sometimes it's just one.
Sometimes it's two.
But what I do talk about is that when we hit all three of our core values, that's when we're living, having peak experiences in our lives.
You know, that's when we're just like, okay, this is – I am connected with people here.
I'm feeling good within my body.
Like.
I feel like a well-being, for example, and we are cultivating I don't know a creative project together.
Like that is value-based living.
It helps you shift the focus so it's a more positive outcome.
So, for example, like –
If you agreed to do a job and you really regretted saying yes, you're giving a talk, for example, giving a talk and you're dreading doing the talk, but then maybe one of your values is connection and you go like, okay, well, the talk will be hard, but I guess on the upside I'll get to meet all these people and I'll get to have this connection so you can almost reframe something as a good experience.
Yeah, and though sometimes our values feel bad, sometimes Because other people around us are not really enjoying our values, you know, because we are saying no to the thing or we're maybe butting up against societal expectations.
And so that's why I say that value-based living doesn't necessarily make living easier.
It makes it harder.
When I was in year eight at school, we had a geography teacher who he had a pair of glasses for looking at the blackboard.
We had a blackboard back then in 1993.
I felt that then.
I felt like blackboards.
Wow.
Yeah.
He had a pair of glasses for looking at us.
Yep.
And a pair of glasses for his textbook.
And he would wear them on his chest.
Three different glasses.
Yeah, he'd flip between them as he was like and quite often he would like someone would say something and he would go and because he put his wrong glasses on, he would squint as he put this, so he'd just flip between three glasses the whole time.
Anyway, that's it, that's the story.
No, there's a point to that.
I just wondered, as I was thinking about my values, that I had connection, presence and fun, and I feel like you could definitely umbrella connection and presence.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm not – because I thought of this, because you were just talking about how values are what you look through a lens of, and for some reason I thought of – Yeah, what glasses are you putting on?
What glasses are you putting on?
And if you've got three glasses you might sometimes put on – it's like what pair of glasses do I wear here?
For this situation.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah.
For me.
Just then I was thinking gosh, I reckon my brain could really benefit from having two values fun and presence.
Yep.
And what do you think of that?
What do you think of that?
Oh, it feels great.
There you go.
Yeah, let's do the thing that works for you.
I feel like I've taken something, not heavy, but like slightly heavy out of my backpack.
Yeah, great.
Because I was working with a client the other day and she was just like, I've got to have four.
Like, great, go for it.
Yeah.
You're wrong, but go for it.
You know, go for it.
I just said, you know, let's get curious around.
You're going to go out into the world now for two weeks, into work, into your personal life, whatever.
Let's see what feedback we get from you having those four values because it may be that one recedes.
It may be they all stick and they all work.
Play.
This is the thing.
It's not like you choose values and you say them and then it's it.
You have to then kind of go and try them out in the world.
And I know that Bella shared the other team member like since she's got her values, it has changed her life.
You know, when it really locks in, it locks in.
Awesome.
Yeah.
It is great.
Hugh and Ryan.
Yeah, Josh.
As you guys know and as a lot of people know, we're doing a new live tour this year together again.
Grand new show.
What might be exciting is to tell people who will be joining us on stage.
Oh, there's some absolute beauties.
Yeah.
Hit us with some names, Josh.
So, they're not going to all be there at once.
Different places, different people.
But Steve Curry.
Dug a hole.
Susie Youssef.
Oh, yeah.
Christy Whelan-Brown.
Yes, please.
Hannah Ferguson.
Okay.
Rana Hussain.
Love her.
Matt O'Khan.
Great guy.
Hamish Black.
My best friend.
And...
Dr. M. Oh, my second best friend.
Imagine any one of those people at a show.
It's going to make it so much more fun for us because we love all of those people.
It's going to be great.
LiveNation.com.au for tickets to see us and a collection of Ryan's friends in order.
So I'm interested to know where goals fit in here, because a lot of people will.
I'm picturing people coming back to this episode at the start of the year going right, it's a new year, new me, I'm going to have my values, and goal setting is a big part of that.
Where does goal setting fit in for you here?
Something that I have found really powerful, that I use for myself personally, is that I now have three goals for the year, and each one is an extension of my values.
Could you give us an example?
Yes.
So an example of that, with the value of cultivation, that I now have a writing practice that I'm cultivating.
And which means that I'm going to be writing some essays and sort of putting them out into the world in a way that I never have before.
So that's kind of a really big, scary goal.
But that is I'm cultivating the practice of writing.
So practically speaking, how you came up with that, you start with value and you go, okay, how is that value going to be presented or how am I going to act on that?
How am I going to live into that value as a goal this year?
So it's kind of actively working out.
Oh, this is how I'm actively, instead of it being a concept in my head.
This is actually where I'm putting my life energy, which I speak a lot about in the book.
Where is our life energy going?
So I am actually creating goals that are aligned with my values.
So I know where I'm spending my life energy and I'm spending it in areas that are important to me.
Love it.
I have always kind of resisted and repelled against goals for some reason my whole life.
But the way you described it then is like certainly, with the value of curiosity.
The idea of attaching a goal to that is quite exciting.
Yeah.
To know that that will mean I'll do more of that this year.
Of that thing.
That's right.
That's really, that's enticing.
Yeah.
I mean, your goal could be, I'm curious to know what my other two values should be.
Could be.
That's a goal.
Could be.
Yeah.
It could be.
It could be.
It should be, but it could be.
And also I need to speak to that as well just around the goal thing as well, because the fact that you're repelled by goals is great.
That means that's not generally what works for you.
People assume that I'm into like five-year, ten-year goals.
I have no interest in five-year, ten-year goals personally.
If a client comes to me and wants to work on their five or ten-year goals, then that's what I'm there to do.
But also... we're all changing all the time.
I don't know who I'm going to be in five years time.
So I'm not going to set, you know, that sort of goal.
There are areas of our life where maybe we can anchor goals that are further out in time.
But for me, the values will have us create goals that are more grounded.
I'm the same.
I've never had five, 10 year plans.
But it does work for, you know, it works for some people.
Love them.
Yep.
I wonder if now is a good time with this idea of you, like you do them once a year.
I wonder, it's probably been about a year since we did our values work together.
Has it?
Has it?
It feels like a few months ago.
It was more than that.
Wow.
But maybe we should say what the company values are.
And I think it'd be interesting to talk a bit about how they've worked for us and where there's been sort of challenges to them and how they've helped us as a group of people.
Yeah, and certainly not as a self-indulgent activity.
I think it's interesting for people who are thinking from a.
It might be a workplace, it could be a sporting team, it could be a family, just as a group.
It's a little bit different, I guess, when you're coming up with group.
Could a family have values?
Yeah, we had family values.
Oh, wow.
Up on our blackboard, actually.
Really?
Yeah, yeah, in our kitchen.
Oh, cool.
Yeah.
Okay.
Is family values an album?
Yes, it was, I think, Korn.
Korn?
I don't know Kool, but I've got a feeling I don't need to.
I'm not sure it's your thing.
No, okay, great.
What is it, Aussie rock?
No, it's American.
Is it death metal?
I believe they called it industrial metal.
Oh, no, not my thing.
Or whatever.
Yeah, not my thing.
And in the spirit of what you were saying before about there not being just like a management team decides the values and then they're dictated down.
As we said, we did them all together as a group.
So we do have a mic ready if anyone from the team wants to talk about this, because I think certainly we've been living them as a team.
Who wants to say them?
So one of them is care, courage.
And joy.
There we go.
And there were some of those that were locked in.
What would you sort of say in the process of the ones that came quicker to you?
Care.
Care was the one that was.
Yeah.
Everyone agreed with that one.
It was such a.
Yeah, it really rung true to the three of us as far as care for everyone in this team care for every guest who steps inside the studio, care for all the listeners.
Yeah, and care for the other members of the team as well, like that one landed with everyone.
Care for the topics that we talk about.
Yeah, and care for the guests.
And then courage.
I think we got them pretty...
Those two.
Those two.
But then there was a big deliberation.
Then there was a big deliberation around joy.
Yes.
Yeah, because I think originally, did we have fun?
Yes, fun was there.
Yeah.
We had fun.
That's right.
Yeah.
And that didn't, it was between fun and joy.
It was my fault.
No, I was going to say, I think it's perfect to bring Bridget in.
So that's Bridget.
But I think this is an interesting thing as well, because when we looked at Courage, the fact that then you know, there was quite excitement about the idea of it being fun and it was getting pretty cemented down that it was fun and it was literally Bridget with Courage, said I'm not really feeling that.
Well, as Bridget quite rightly pointed out at the time, she was the fun place.
Yeah, right.
LAUGHTER
But we all listened.
Yep, yep.
You were courageous and listened.
But she was bloody right, whatever.
Yeah, yeah.
So Bridge, do you want to share what your?
Because I think this is what becomes interesting to people is when we look at what does that word mean to me, or what does that mean for the organisation.
But yeah bridge, do you want to share what it was for you and that the difference between fun and joy.
And bridge before you, before you start, bridget northeast is is the executive producer of the imperfects, that's she's basically runs the show so, and for people on youtube, she's behind a curtain.
Yeah, Thanks guys.
Yeah, I felt like fun wasn't enough and I started to get – when we were sitting around that table I started to get kind of anxious when everyone was talking about how fun was feeling right for everyone else and I started to feel maybe a bit alone in feeling like it's just not quite enough for me.
Like I really value fun and I think we have so much fun on this show.
It's such a big part of – being able to do what we do.
But I think I needed something more, because for me, like there are some things about this job and this show that aren't fun, that are like really hard, that like make me really question my morals, make like I feel challenged a lot of time to be a better listener and to be more empathetic and to hear different people's opinions and stories.
And the vicarious trauma of that can be really real sometimes.
And I have to bring all of that into the work that we do to create these episodes and tell these stories.
And sometimes that means making tough decisions about what to include on the podcast.
So there's all these elements that aren't fun.
But when I add things like pride and integrity into fun...
I felt like joy was a better word that umbrellaed fun, pride and integrity.
And I can be joyous in all of the work that I do and all the ways I work with each of you and with Belle and George on the team as well.
So for me, fun just was so small compared to what joy represents.
Everyone listening is just thinking, thank God she's running this show.
Yeah.
And when I hear that beautiful way that you explained that bridge as well, what I hear is that joy actually becomes the umbrella.
Yes.
For fun.
Fun's in there.
Yeah, fun is in there.
But that was a really great insight and that was like another thing that helped us like in sharing all these thoughts and how we're feeling about the values and Like.
For me, it gave me like an insight into what Bridget's experience of the imperfects is, which is very different to my experience of it.
Yeah.
Like I have nowhere near the exposure that Bridget has to so much of the stuff and Bella and George and Josh as well.
So that was really just even helpful, like even values aside to get an understanding of everyone's experience.
Yeah.
Yeah. which is why it's so powerful when people can get as many people within a team in a room.
And, as I said, it takes time.
But this is kind of the.
In this very sort of tech world that we're getting into now, we kind of have things that can make us more efficient.
But connections connection, it just takes the time it takes.
You know, I know that we're told we can hack connection.
I don't believe that that is true.
Connection takes time and it means listening and being with other people and understanding who they are.
So what I have found when I've done this process with teams.
As you said, it actually changes the culture of the teams as well.
People know each other.
There's a level of vulnerability and trust.
So then in the way that we did it, we did individual values first and then we did the team.
And you then had a really clear idea of what each other valued and Before we then went into okay, so now, what are the company values?
And it's not that the individual values necessarily speak into the company values, but just having that grounding of we in this room all know what we value as individuals.
And now we as this room are going to work out what we as a collective value together.
That is the bit that's missing in a lot of organisations, the together piece.
And then there's the lens of courage that you chose as well.
So I'm curious to know how has that been going?
It sort of feels And this may or may not be true for everyone, but it sort of feels like the more people that listen, the bigger the show gets.
To me, it feels like... some things require more courage.
It just, you know, when we were starting out and it was just like a thing that no one was listening to and it was, you know, sort of like a side project for us.
It felt like the mistakes weren't as significant as they and not even mistakes, to be honest but just the decisions didn't have as big of an impact as they might now.
So, yeah, I think for me that's changed a lot.
I think for me, the episode that I did, talking about parenting neurodivergent child that was the value that I think that was the most common thing people said to me was very courageous to do that.
And I felt it at the time.
And it was very front of mind of like...
Yeah, I'm extremely nervous and my hands are shaking because this is going to take courage to do.
And even looking back on it, I think, because part of me is thinking I'm going to get so much like it'll mean a lot to a lot of people, but there will be people who use it as an opportunity to tell me what they don't like about me or will try and pick holes in something that is incredibly personal to me.
So I was aware of that in advance as well.
Yeah.
And sure enough, people wrote some really awful stuff to me about it.
But in my head it's like well, I knew this was coming and I took courage to do it because of what's happening now.
So I think that was a value that was really, really important to me in doing that.
Yeah.
And a great example that our values don't necessarily make life easier.
Like it's not, you know, to live into courage as a value takes something.
Yeah.
Beautiful.
What about you, Josh?
How would you say courage has been showing up in the company?
Yeah.
It's a tricky one for me.
I think...
I find it difficult because I think I agree with what both the guys have said and I think it's a great value for us.
But there's still a part of me that's like I think it clashes with the humility.
Thing Hugh was talking about before is that I don't want people to think I'm courageous at all.
And so for me to try and align any of my behaviour at work and say that was courageous feels like I'm sort of big noting myself, but I think it really does work as a company value.
So it's like it's sort of I wouldn't want that to be my personal value.
It's not your personal value, yeah.
But not doing a topic or not interviewing a guest purely because I'm worried what other people would say.
Feels like that would be not a courageous thing to do.
To do it, because it's something that we all believe in as a team and it's something we want to talk about and is a good thing.
There's value to it, even if we think oh, people might not like – there's going to be some people that don't like that.
That does, at work, feel somewhat courageous and it's the right kind of courage and it's sort of checked against my – it's checked against a few things.
Does that make sense?
Well, it does.
And another thing that we – this is sort of where it kind of circles around as well sometimes to care, because the decision not to talk to someone or not to do something on one hand – could be seen as not courageous, but the reason we're not doing it.
Is because of care.
Is because of care.
Yeah.
For someone or something.
Yeah.
Or if you decide to do the courageous thing, it's like, and how do we care for each other?
How do we do the courageous thing?
So if we're going to do the courageous thing, how do we care for each other?
Yeah.
And care for the audience, everyone, the guests, the audience, the whole lot.
Yeah.
So it's those two working together is really, is a sweet spot, I think.
Yeah.
Bridge, I imagine you'll have, do you have anything you want to say about this?
Courage for me is the value I probably feel like I have to lean into most, but it also makes me feel the most sick most of the time.
Bridge is allergic to courage.
It's the value that makes you have the difficult conversation with somebody, or the phone call or the, or the feedback conversation that you're nervous to have.
And I think in this work, where we have to get so vulnerable with each other to be able to be vulnerable into microphones, it's like there's a lot of courage that is needed for that.
But I also think in the broader spectrum.
Sometimes, working in mental health and in the media, where you get so much feedback, it's like a constant harsh reminder of everything you're not doing well enough.
It can feel like it takes more courage than you have just to keep going or keep doing it or keep creating.
And I think that's where care and joy for me.
I need both of those to fuel the courage, because if I'm not caring for myself first and then thinking about the team, the business, you guys as hosts, no particular order.
What is the ranking out of your heads?
If we're not sort of putting care first and then bringing the joy and fun that comes into it with joy, then I don't have the stamina for the courage.
So I need all three.
So well said.
George and Belle, I don't know if you've got anything you feel like adding or you want to.
There's no pressure, but just in case you were thinking of something.
But Bridges set the bar there.
Yeah.
George, thanks for calling.
Thank you.
Long time listener.
So the other value of care I feel like every decision that we make has care in it, whether it be care for us, care for you guys, care for the whole team, care for the show, care for the audience, what topics we choose.
That being said, care often conflicts with itself.
And a lot of decisions we have to try and figure out who are we caring for.
And I think that's been probably the biggest challenge.
Well, a little bit of context for everyone who doesn't know.
George not only edits most of the episodes, but also looks after all the video editing for the social media clips.
So George is on the front line of all messages and comments coming in through Instagram.
And we get incredible, beautiful, thoughtful messages from everyone.
But I don't know if anyone's noticed, but Instagram is actually pretty fucking toxic.
Sorry.
So George is exposed to a lot of that as well.
Yeah.
And often I'll get stuck because, yeah, I'm not exactly sure what the next step is.
And where to place the care.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But then also, George, what are your three values?
Yeah, I have completely forgotten them, actually.
Thanks for calling, George.
Yeah.
Yeah, I need to redo mine.
I was trying to remember them and I just remember one of them was growth.
And I remember that I came into a lot of trouble with growth.
Just trying to figure out in a moment of like a hard conversation or a day-to-day thing, what is growth in this moment?
Yeah.
And that's such good feedback again.
If we can't remember our values, they're not our values.
We haven't locked them in.
We haven't embodied them.
They don't make sense.
So whatever you chose, not your values.
But then in this situation where you're on the front line of receiving people's messages...
It's then a case of what are my core values?
Because then you might have three other angles of which to decide what that is.
And then that also gets measured in with the company values, which could give you various ways to respond or not, or what care looks like in there.
I think George, one of the difficult things I think, as Ryan alluded to before, with Instagram is that it's not just negative stuff.
It's dealing with treating people who have responded with such heartwarming personal messages and responding with care and attention that they deserve.
It's not being overcome by the weight of the collective emotion.
For George and for all of us who have to engage, or do engage, with the incredible people that listen to this show, it's a difficult thing to balance and to get right, because you can move too much in one direction, of taking too much time, getting too emotionally involved, that then you can't do anything and you're rendered unable to do the show.
And you also don't want to be the kind of person that ignores these incredible messages that people have shared.
It's a tricky situation George is in and anyone who works in that role on the show.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's where I definitely get down on myself and, I'm sure, Bella and Ash and Bridge and the people dealing with the emails.
Yeah.
Might feel the same, but sometimes it'll be a really beautiful message or something very vulnerable from someone and I'll get stuck and then stuff will happen and then I don't respond.
And that's the worst feeling because then I'm not caring for that person anymore.
Yeah.
And also, George, it's like you're here to make videos and edit podcasts.
You're not a counsellor and you're not a psychologist.
And it's really, it's a huge ask.
You know, I think the idea probably the role of a, not that you're like a social media person, but you do look after our social media.
One of the people who does.
And probably as social media has changed over the years, that role probably has changed quite a lot and the expectations of what is required on that platform has really changed.
Yeah, and I think as well that, in regard to something like that, you know what are the choices that are made in the moment.
There isn't going to be one choice that is made all the time.
Like it is complex because as human beings we're incredibly complex and you know, looking through the lens of care, then if George isn't responding, you know if it's not George's job to respond to all of those things which it sounds like it very much isn't.
But then the thing is like how is George being cared for while being on the front line?
Yeah.
He's a very – you can probably hear it in his voice, but George is a very sweet boy.
He's almost a man.
I thought he was a man.
Georgie boy is his nickname.
He's not technically bar mitzvahed, but he is a man.
He is a man.
One of the things that I think is interesting that comes out of that is that –
Care has been a challenging one for me and, like there's an example from George, a specific one that I find challenging is that there's been things that I thought would be useful to share from parenting that I think would show care to our audience, to show that you're not alone in this journey.
But I don't want to share it because I want to show care to my kids, that this is personal stuff and I don't know how they're going to react hearing it in 10 years.
So I've held back.
But I think what's interesting in what George said and what happened there is that it's not that care.
The value is the problem.
It's actually really good, I think, that it pushes me to think about it through that lens.
Just like going to a party can be courageous and not going to a party can be courageous.
I can at least feel confident that I've aligned my decision with a version of care for someone or something, and it's attached to something.
That's right.
It's not you know kind of what I call.
It's not like a Jackson Pollock life where everything is just kind of out there and who knows what will stick and I'll be this person over here and this person over here.
I remember many, many years ago, a dear friend of mine that had passed away, and when we were at the wake, we were all sharing stories about her and it turned out that none of us knew her.
So none of the stories added up.
So that what was then kind of a you know what was a wake and a funeral, then became us all pulling chairs into the middle of the room and actually just going okay, let's work out who she was.
Wow.
Oh my gosh.
You know and I remember coming away from that and that I'm sort of thinking about now, it's probably when I really stepped into doing values work.
I remember coming away from that thinking when I die, I want everyone that I love to know who I was.
Wow.
And then that's where the work becomes hard.
That is incredible.
I know that there is a school of thought out there, which I'm sure does work as well.
And for me, navigating the world as well as a person of colour.
There are some rooms that you do have to change who you are, or you're on high alert because you're not quite sure.
But generally in those rooms, who I am with integrity with myself, I'm living into my core values.
You know, I don't want to be someone in this room and then someone completely different over there, and then someone completely different over there and someone completely different over there.
Because that's then sort of fragmenting, like then what is actually anchoring you in your life?
When people kind of clash and it could be online or it could be in person, but people have either very differing views on something which is the more common thing or what seems to be happening more and more now is someone has a very strong opinion about someone and another person has no real opinion about it.
And that could be something in the news, or it could be something within a family, or it could be so many things.
But it sounds like what's happening there is it's like they're different values.
Sometimes people actually have the same values.
It's their actions that are different.
Right.
Let's say two people value freedom.
Yep.
Right.
So for one person, that means I'm just going to travel the world with no responsibility.
I'm just going to be free.
I'm just going to do my thing all the time.
I said, I'm going to be free.
Whereas somebody else their freedom could be around, sort of how they are in the world in terms of their act of them.
Like they value freedom for others and for themselves, but it's not that they have to go gallivanting around.
It's actually how can they create freedom for themselves.
Now they're kind of very binary examples, but I wanted to show how you can have the same value but your actions are different.
Right?
Which is why, to be honest, I wish if there was a global value that we all had to have, that we were given for, I don't know, six months a year.
It would be curiosity.
Really?
So I win.
Yes, you win.
You win the values game.
And now we have the Lord and Saviour.
I'm so glad it's moved its way around.
You just haven't had it yet.
I'm next.
I'm next.
We've got time.
What are you going to do?
What are you going to do?
You know, because...
You know, I sort of joke in the book, and I believe this, people will kind of say, oh, I value love.
It's like most of us value love.
Let's just you know, and that's the thing right is that we think, because that person is doing something different than we would do it, we just think well, that person is just well, that's just not the source.
Generally, we don't know anything about that person.
The only way to find out why that person is doing that thing and not because you need validation for yourself, because you're actually curious about humans is to ask them.
Okay.
I'm so curious, why did you slam the door like that?
Not you shouldn't slam the door.
You know, whenever we feel attacked, we defend, no connection there.
We make up assumptions all the time.
It's so much more connective and powerful and human to actually ask people.
I'm curious to know what just happened.
You know I've got my opinion of what just happened, but I would really like to know what just happened for you there.
And it could be that you have the same value, which is connection, but the actions were different.
Yep.
So interesting.
I can imagine in that freedom example, or if connection is the shared value and for one person connection is going to the gym with people and working out and for someone else it's partying and drinking.
Yeah.
I can see how, when you both have the same value, it would feel quite, It's quite annoying to see someone, it could be quite annoying to see someone displaying that value very differently, because it feels like how dare you waste that value?
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can see how it would feel like a trespass on your own value, but it's really just someone else doing their thing the way that they feel.
That represents their value for them.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And also that thing of being mindful of not becoming self-righteous and arrogant about our values.
Yeah, that's a great point.
You know like it's not okay just because you know if someone values responsibility which could very easily be a rule for a lot of people you know and you value responsibility and somebody else isn't as responsible as you, and then you make them bad and wrong.
This is one thing I know.
We all want to feel valued and we all want to be long.
But our actions don't always look like that is the case.
And whenever it's going back to this idea of humility.
Whenever I have met people that have a lot of bravado or they're very arrogant, they're the people I'm really curious about, because there's a reason why they've had to navigate the world like that.
And it's not because they have a strong sense of self.
Yeah.
You know, even though those behaviours can feel quite...
You also get to, like, something is happening for this person.
I don't understand what's happening for this person.
So I'm going to, like, connect with this person and see.
You know, I have somebody in my world right now who's kind of in my farming rural community, who I'm pretty sure has the completely opposite politics than I do.
But we stood and we watched a bird, a bald-headed eagle for 10 minutes together.
Yeah.
And I just decided I will never ask about the politics of this person, because there's not many people that I could stand in a paddock and watch an eagle with.
That's pretty amazing.
And we spend a lot of time together.
Like, we spend a lot of time together.
And who knows, maybe one day, but for me, one of my core values is connection.
And it is becoming sort of easier and easier, in a bad way, to boil people down, boil an entire person down to one decision or one thing that they believe.
And it's an interesting thing, isn't it?
Because I talk a lot in the book about what is it to be success?
If success isn't just about work and it's not just about sort of the capitalism model of more more more bigger bigger bigger better, there's something that feels very successful in being able to be connected with people that have very different views from you.
Beautifully said.
Yeah, it is.
We clearly need more of that.
Josh, one of the things that I've found very helpful getting pants on a three-year-old.
What I do is I say I've only learned this race because I have the same problem with Patrick.
I say to him, sorry, Kimmy.
No, that's fine.
I've had three-year-olds.
Good segue, isn't it?
No, that's fine.
Yeah.
This is fascinating.
The curiosity is peaking.
I say, I think your pants go here and I pretend to put them on his shoulders.
And he goes, no.
And I go, oh, they go here on your belly button.
And then he wants to show me where they go.
He goes, no, they go here.
And I go, hang on, how do I get them to go there?
And he ends up showing me.
We do it every single morning.
Falls for it every time.
Yeah, because that's the connection piece though.
Do you know what I mean?
And look, I've had young kids at home many years ago now, but in those mornings there's a lot going on.
We've got places to go, got to get the kids to school, got to get them dressed, all those things.
My children would sometimes go to school with no shoes.
I'm not putting my shoes on.
Not a problem.
Let's go.
That's so good.
It doesn't matter.
Like, what's going to happen?
Like if they cut their foot, which I suppose most parents would be worried about.
There are teachers there.
People will put up a parcel like that.
That'll be it.
And then the child will kind of work out, oh, that's okay.
It's probably good if I wear my shoes.
I actually think most parents care about other parents judging them.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
I mean.
One thing that Brené talks about a lot and talked about a lot in the Dare to Lead work, is this idea that yeah, parenting is just an absolute minefield of people putting their values onto other people.
Oh, yeah.
Absolute minefield.
I never took that dilemma to absolute.
Yeah, and this is the thing you know.
My kids are now well young adults 19 and 21 and my husband and I very consciously raised our children with our values and we're at a point now where our children are starting to say hey, that thing that you did didn't quite work, you know, didn't actually work for me or didn't work for us whatever, and I now value connection.
So I want to be the parent that says, okay, I had my experience of your childhood as your mother.
Tell me about your experience of your childhood.
Wow.
Because it's different.
You know, you asked about family values.
If families can come together, there is something around sitting together as parents, or even if you're a single parent with older children.
What do we value in this family?
What are Patrick's values?
Yeah.
Dinosaurs.
Yeah, that's a good one.
Trucks.
Yep.
There's probably an umbrella.
Yeah, I was wondering if there's an umbrella.
A literal umbrella.
And Darth Vader.
And Darth Vader.
Beautiful, beautiful.
Yeah, they feel very separate, actually.
Do you reckon he's living in alignment with those values?
Absolutely.
More than anyone.
We should get him.
Now the baton's been passed to the three-year-old.
Sorry.
Sorry, Kemi.
No, that's okay.
Just you know, for people listening that sort of want to explore and sort of get into this values work, it's also a form of play.
You know, add some lightness to it, like try them on, go out into the world, see what resonates.
But just take ownership of what it is that your values are and not putting them onto other people.
And the world does shift when we have a very clear anchor of how we want to be in the world.
That isn't by default, but that we've consciously sat down and basically asked the question who am I in the world?
And what is the anchor that is going to keep me in my full humanity?
Love that.
I feel like whenever I listen to you, I just want more Kemi and I'm probably not alone in that.
Where could people go to?
They can read the book but like, obviously read the book.
Listening to you is a wonderful experience.
Where could they listen to you?
Where could they hear you speak more?
If people go to my website and then register to my sort of newsletter, then I am going to be doing some events next year.
So that is the place to find out about all of those things.
And obviously this book as well.
Grounded Success is kind of the final book in a trilogy of three books that are a woman's guide to which men can also read.
Yeah.
And so it's been beautiful to kind of create this body of work that is very much around empowerment and healing and just starting to break down narratives around certain things that we've been told in the world, especially in the world that we're currently having to navigate with so much change.
How do we become the best humans that we can be?
Our Lord, our Saviour.
You didn't get it.
Ryan didn't get a go.
It's going straight back to you.
No, I'm cool.
I'm all good.
I don't need to be the Lord and Saviour.
It's actually fine to go through life without being the Lord and Saviour.
It is.
It's fine.
It is fine.
You sound really happy with it.
Yeah, I'm actually fine with it.
Great.
What are your values?
Power.
Power, scarcity and control.
Locked in.
So good to see you, Kemi.
Thanks, Kemi.
Thanks, Kemi.
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The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
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