Welcome to this masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
With over 1700 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated a couple of powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone.
And in this masterclass, you'll see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
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Laura, thanks for joining us today.
Oh my goodness, thank you for having me.
What a delight that I get to have another conversation with you.
Yes, I think we're actually just using these podcasts as excuses to chat at this point.
I mean, honestly, I'm okay with that.
I have no shame in just calling out that I have built something purely on my desire to have interesting conversations.
And so probably have you in some ways.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So how about we start off by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Awesome.
Well, I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
I've been in private practice, for you know, I always say 10 years, but I forget that every year I should say an additional year.
So it's about 12 years at this point, but I've been working for 15.
And, you know, I've really... in so many ways, built my practice off of the idea of curiosity.
And I've worked significantly with individuals who have eating disorders and then athletes.
Some of those athletes have eating disorders.
Some of them don't.
But that has really been the bulk of the work that I've done.
And then I've also in my practice, specifically as I entered into the world of eating disorders, I worked significantly with parents because, as many could probably imagine, much of my clients were adolescents.
So I would run parent workshops, parent groups, to really help them understand what are maybe some better ways of navigating parenting just from a foundational perspective, not even when you necessarily have a child with a mental illness.
So That's been the bulk of my work in private practice.
And then in the last few years I've joined with an organization called Spartan Race and done some consulting with them and then some consulting with some other organizations, like the Unbeatable Mind, with Mark Devine, really working on fleshing out some of the mindset performance issues that individuals might have in wanting to increase their athletic performance or their athletic endurance.
So that's been really exciting and new for me and has sort of thrown me into a whole new arena which I've loved.
That's fantastic.
And congratulations and kudos for everything you've accomplished.
And thank you for the good work you're doing because it's really, really important.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, it's amazing.
And it's an incredible time, I think, right now to be in the mental health space, specifically because I think that we're becoming much more curious about what works and what doesn't.
And allowing ourselves to really kind of flex muscles outside of the standard on the couch therapy, which I think is really, really important.
I think, for example, podcasts can be an incredible resource for individuals who are struggling with mental health issues.
And the truth is that standard talk therapy doesn't work for everybody.
And so I love where we are right now in the mental health space in really flexing different muscles and getting curious about what could work and maybe what's not.
This is fantastic.
Well, great.
Well, let's jump into our topics for today.
Speaking of curiosity.
So the three things that we're going to talk about are first, why is it important to be internally curious?
Second, how does internal curiosity help us to be better negotiators internally?
And then lastly, how can we maximize curiosity during the conversation?
So let's start off with number one.
When we say internal curiosity, what do we mean by that?
So when I talk about curiosity, and specifically internal curiosity, I'm talking about us being an inquiry.
Around how we think how we feel and how we behave.
And so when I, for example, and becoming internally curious.
It's about, you know, what am I thinking at any given moment.
What are the thought patterns that I'm?
What are the thought patterns that I use that work and what are the ones that I use it don't?
When I'm getting curious about my internal feelings, I'm wondering what am I feeling right now?
You know, so often, for example, we have standard ways of answering that.
You know, fine and okay, by the way, are not emotions, but people you, like, how are you feeling?
I'm okay.
That's, I have no idea what that means.
You know okay, could mean I'm angry and furious, or it could mean I'm sad, or it could mean I'm feeling shame.
So internal curiosity for me around emotions is really being able to accurately identify and get curious about what emotion it is that we're feeling, or emotions, because we could also, of course, have more than one.
And then around how I'm behaving.
Right.
So when I'm curious about the behaviors that I'm engaging in.
I'm wondering are they in alignment with my values?
You know, is this a way that I want to behave?
Is My choice right now being informed by something that happened in my past or something that's going on for me in the present?
So For me, it's really about being in inquiry.
And I believe that when we are in inquiry with ourselves, we are investing in ourselves.
We are creating a vehicle that allows for a greater return on investment, because when we get curious, we actually make better choices and we are more productive and we allow ourselves greater creativity.
So I believe that internal curiosity really fuels a better way of living in so many words.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And one of the things I like to do is play devil's advocate here.
So I'll play the role of the skeptic.
Oh, I love that.
You're like my oldest child.
Exactly.
So what about those people out there who say well, all of this psychological woo-woo is a waste of time?
You know what the right thing to do is, just do the thing and then get it done.
I love that you've said that, because first I've gotten that question not only from you, but from clients who say well, why does it matter?
Why does it matter if What I'm thinking right now is grounded in something that happened when I was 5, 15 or 25?
I'm 45 years old right now.
The choice in front of me is A or B or C. You know, what do I need right now in order to make that?
And I guess my response would be, listen, we're complex human beings and we are complicated.
And it's not always easy.
And people don't always know.
And in fact there's so much that goes on at a psychological level that we are not conscious of that.
If we can pause for a minute and get curious, maybe we can become a little bit more conscious of which can actually allow us to make maybe just an incrementally better choice than what we might have made if we weren't as curious or conscious.
For me, I guess you know I always like to think of you know, do I want to be like two times tougher, or do I want to be 10 to 20 to 30 to 40 to 50 times tougher?
Right.
And I am always looking to elevate and level up.
And so I want to go more beyond.
You know well what's just adequate right now, or what's good enough.
I want to excel and really make the very best choices for myself that I can in any given moment.
And, for me, having that self-awareness and self-understanding and introspection aids me in order to do that.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And it reminds me, I just bought a new car and it requires a different gasoline.
So it's premium, but I'm just over the course of my entire life.
I've been putting in, you know, the regular gas.
And so I accidentally started putting in regular gas in the car.
So half of the tank was full of regular.
And then I said, oh no, I need to put in the right gasoline.
And-
Laura, I could tell.
I could tell very clearly that there was something not right here, right?
That's amazing.
That's a great metaphor.
Exactly.
Because what's inside will have an impact on what's outside.
And so somebody might look at the car and just say, hey, it's a nice car.
Just drive it further, drive it faster.
And I say, well, there's a problem on the inside here.
We have to address it.
And that's essentially what we're talking about here.
But we won't know about what's going on in the inside if we don't take the time to go through this process of internal curiosity.
That's right.
And our internal journey shapes our external experience.
And so to understand how we are operating in our external experience and how we are contributing to our external experience, we have to, from my perspective, get curious about our internal journey and know more about that.
Absolutely.
And what's interesting too, let's go back to the person who might be skeptical of all of this.
Yeah, just do what you need to do.
All right, let's say you are able to push through and then do what you need to do.
And then you're able to do it actually at a decently high level.
But did you enjoy that?
How was that experience?
Right?
Because we can't just focus on the outcome.
We have to think about the process and how we felt about it too.
Because if you present somebody with the option hey, you could be successful and miserable versus hey, you can be successful and feel good about yourself.
The obvious answer is feel good about yourself, right?
But a lot of times we're not willing to do the internal work in order to get there.
That's right, and I think you know.
What's really important to me sometimes too, is you know we're always talking about like well, what's your next step?
You know, what are you going to do next, what's your next best choice going to be?
And I like to weave in the idea of how do you want to feel next.
You know, like in your next step, how do you want to feel?
Because it's not just about the doing part of that.
I mean, we like to believe that we are doing and thinking beings.
And we like to kind of think of this feeling being as something that like yeah, maybe we experience during christmas time because it's nostalgic, or during our anniversary, when we hold up the idea of having a loved one, or maybe if we lose a parent and we experience grief.
But like all these other feelings like i, you know, i'll keep them at bay for now, until i'm ready to address them.
But the truth is that we are walking around feeling beings all the time, And so if we can have a greater understanding of where those feelings are coming from and integrate them with our thoughts and our behaviors, that integration to me means more integrity.
It means more thoughtful and meaningful choices that allow us to move forward with our values intact.
Absolutely.
And when your values and what you believe in and when those things are in line with what you're actually doing, then you can navigate the world with a lot less cognitive dissonance.
Exactly.
There's not that resistance there.
So that makes a lot of sense.
And now let's transition into the next part here, because everybody says okay Kwame, thank you for the self-help.
All right.
Well, what's the point of this?
This is a negotiation podcast.
So let's actually talk about internal curiosity and how it can help us to be better negotiators.
Yeah.
So I think that this part is really important because, from my perspective you know, I like to think of everything that we've gone through up until this point.
Everything that we thought, felt behaved related, all of our relationships kind of find themselves in a metaphorical backpack on our back.
And when we move into any experience, any next challenge, any next job interview, any next difficult conversation with somebody that's in front of us, we bring with us that backpack.
And if we understand what's in the backpack, Then we can actually utilize things that are in the backpack to make us better negotiators or to allow us to be more present in conversation.
And I'll give you an example of that.
So let's say, for example, in my previous job.
I had a boss that never gave me positive feedback ever and was not only like devoid, of you know, positive feedback, but also layered on criticism and layered it on pretty heavily.
That job's over.
I'm in a new job.
I have a new boss.
And I come into her office and our first performance review and she starts in.
But the language that she uses to transition some of her sentences is the exact same language that my previous boss used.
Now my brain, just because of neuroscience, is going to naturally associate oh like, there's that word.
What's coming next is criticism.
Oh, there's that word.
What's coming next is criticism.
And so I might literally shut down.
Like I might begin to turn the volume down on her and put up my walls, because I have had this experience before.
And so I believe this is what's coming.
But she might be sitting there giving me nothing but praise and or constructive criticism.
That's really useful for me and important for me to hear.
But if I don't understand that my response to what she's saying is based on a previous experience that I had with the previous boss, then I'm not going to be open to receiving that.
And I'm not going to even necessarily hear what she has to say.
For me, understanding and getting internally curious about the way that I'm thinking, feeling and behaving at any given moment allows me to show up and be present and to understand if the things in my backpack right now are maybe preventing me from being a good negotiator in that moment, or if they are helping me be a good negotiator in that moment.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And what I like about this is that we can look at it from the lens of our own experience and our own goals in these negotiations, but also from the experience of somebody else on the other side, because we've probably had situations where we said something that was benign and then somebody took it the complete wrong way.
And you're saying, what in the world just happened?
That's right.
I was trying to be nice.
What is wrong with you?
And so we can recognize how relationships start to break down because of the baggage that you described.
Right.
That's an excellent point because I think the truth is, is that curiosity is contagious.
And so the more curious that we can also be internally with ourselves.
That provides sort of a vehicle for us to be curious, just like you said, about how our engagement with somebody else might be impacting them.
And we might even be able to get curious about them too.
Like I wonder if one of the reasons why they're shutting down right now is because maybe they had a previous boss who was XYZ or whatever it is.
So I think that sort of dual relationship is really important.
And the way that the arrow can kind of go both ways is critical to think about.
Absolutely.
And that's something that I found very helpful as a mediator and in my negotiations too.
I remember in the book called The Charisma Myth, one of the things that she said you could do is essentially psychologically, give somebody a pass for bad behavior.
Not in that you're not holding people accountable in the real world, but in your head, just so you don't get all caught up in it, you can make up an excuse for them.
And I thought it was really interesting.
So I tried it one time.
And so, let's say, somebody is blowing up in a mediation, acting improperly, accusing me of things, accusing the other side of things.
And then I say to myself, I'm recognizing I'm starting to get upset.
Then I say, you know what?
Their dog might've died this morning.
You know, oh, they might've lost their job, something like that.
They might've broken up with a loved one.
And so I don't know if that's true, but it helps me to depersonalize a personal attack.
And so I can say, no, that wasn't about me.
And so now I can get to the point where I don't need to make up that excuse.
I can just say, yeah, that probably wasn't about me.
And it helps me to keep my head in the game during a difficult time.
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Yeah, I think that's essential.
You know, when you talk about that, it really makes me think of in so many ways, some of the work that I do with my clients.
A lot of it is really about discovery.
It's about kind of understanding.
You know where and when is my client most willing to get curious with me, and where and when are they gonna shut down real quick.
And it was really interesting, for example, in sessions with adolescents, because when I brought parents in for some kind of parent education, I would begin to understand maybe why an adolescent might have a difficult time with me when I'm talking a certain way, because oh, mom does the same thing.
And so her experience of me in that moment is more like a mom than maybe it is like a therapist.
So I think it's so important, this curiosity piece, for us to just consider how it might serve the conversation.
And I think sometimes we worry that curiosity, again, is sort of this psychobabble nonsense.
That doesn't really get us very far.
But in fact I think the toughest individuals and the ones that really hone in their skill set are the most curious individuals.
Absolutely.
And now during the conversation, because when we're talking about this, a lot of it sounds like pre-work.
Before the conversation
Is it possible to be curious internally during a conversation?
I think so.
Very much so.
I mean for me, for example.
One of the things that I like to talk about is really understanding what's showing us for us by tuning into our own body.
Right.
And so by considering our own body language.
So, for example, if somebody says something and you immediately back up I'm backing up now, but if you immediately back up in your chair.
What is that about in that moment?
And can you quickly check in with yourself and say I just literally created six more inches of distance from this person in this moment?
What does that say?
Am I uncomfortable with something they said and I want to create space?
Am I feeling like maybe attacked and I'm trying to get away?
You know what is it that's happening right now for me, that is showing up physically in this manifestation.
So I always think, I always love this idea of body language and understanding where our body language is.
Or, for example.
If you are with somebody in conversation and they scratch their nose and then you scratch your nose, are you then maybe in a greater opportunity for empathy in that moment?
Because you are literally mimicking their behavior, not consciously, but you notice that you're actually doing it.
So I think if we can tune in and become curious and just ask ourselves short little bits of question,
Listen.
It doesn't need to be a 20 minute internal therapy session here, but just inquire sometimes about what's going on.
I think can really serve the conversation.
Absolutely.
It's incredibly powerful.
And I do the same thing.
A lot of times, usually it's blocking behavior.
So it's blocking and then leading back a little bit.
And I say, the simple question I ask myself is, what was that?
Like, hey Kwame, I saw you do that.
What was that?
Or maybe it was a response that came just a little bit too.
It was a little bit too short, just too sharp.
And I'm like, oh, you might've caused some damage.
What was that?
I'm like, okay, well, yeah, that was something.
And I think that's one of the big, big things we have to recognize.
It's something.
And it's really funny because it's almost like our subconscious is signaling to ourselves constantly that there's something there, either a miss, or maybe something that we like, or whatever it is.
But they're signals.
But since we're not very curious a lot of times, at least not naturally curious about our internal states, we often miss it.
So it's important for us to start to generate and cultivate this new cognitive habit.
Yeah.
And I think and I'm going to go back to also what you brought up in the first question, which is, you know, does is it both ways too?
And I think too, we can get really curious about how somebody else is responding physically.
I mean I, when I'm in sessions with clients, will observe it out loud, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend in a conversation with someone.
But, For example, if the client grabs a blanket and covers themselves after we've had a difficult conversation, I'll point out to them you know, I noticed you covered yourself with that blanket.
Do you feel like you need some kind of like hug right now?
Right.
Because they're sort of metaphorically getting it from the blanket.
But I think that we can also do that when we are in conversation and in negotiation with another individual.
If they, for example, begin to back off, they cross their arms, they maybe even turn their shoulder a little bit, as if they're turning away from you.
How can you begin to weave that into your own knowledge and understanding of maybe, what it is that they need right then, in order to be more in the arena with you, because they're getting out of the arena, right?
So what is it that you might be able to do?
Do you soften your tone?
Do you pause for a minute?
What are the things that you can do to maybe allow them to come back into the conversation?
You use something that I love so much, which is how do you call people in rather than call people out?
And I think that we can begin to call people in more to conversation when we are in tune and curious about when are they shutting down?
Absolutely.
And this is great.
I think I need to have an episode just fully on body language at some point.
It's kind of ridiculous.
We're at 215 plus episodes.
I haven't done it yet.
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Yeah, exactly.
It's very good.
So with the time we have left, let's cover the last part, when we're talking about curiosity during the conversation, more specifically externally, because we've been focusing a lot on the internal curiosity.
What are some unique ways that we can mobilize curiosity externally?
Well, I think language is key.
I think language is really, really important.
For example, right now, it feels like people are really hot.
It's an election year and there's a lot going on in our country.
And so oftentimes people are starting out conversations with things like how could you?
Which immediately puts the other individual in a defensive position because it's accusatory right.
And so even just a tweak in language of, I'm wondering what makes you, right?
Or I'm wondering why.
And why is even a word that sometimes I hesitate to use?
Because why also?
Sometimes initially like, makes you feel like a child.
You know when someone says like well, why'd you do that?
That's what teachers and parents say to us all the time.
Right.
So I think, just tweaking our language a little bit and understanding that too, you know.
Another thing that I think is really important right now is that there's this idea of well, I just don't understand.
Well, OK, then let's get curious about it.
You know, how come?
Gosh, I'm so curious about that.
Right.
Like that's even to me like the tone that we use.
And I think even using that word curiosity in conversation can really create more of a collaboration than a debate.
Right.
Because you're calling again, to use your language, calling somebody in rather than calling somebody out, which I think is so essential, because you know, we know that the defensiveness also increases our experience of shame, because it feels like we've done something wrong.
So the language around how could you vote for that person, right?
Immediately is, oh my gosh, am I doing something wrong?
Let me defend my choice rather than let me get curious about it.
Absolutely.
I think those are great examples.
And going back to the point that you made where sometimes people say, I just don't get it. right?
Well, then just say, help me to understand.
Exactly.
A really easy way to do it.
And I honestly think, Lara, that curiosity is almost like a magic word.
Yes.
Because it doesn't offend people too much.
I can't think of one time in a difficult conversation I've been in or somebody else who's been talking about negotiation for a while, when they use the term curious, people don't say you're curious.
I am offended.
And so it really softens the approach, because if you just say out of curiosity, or I'm curious, Usually people receive that really well.
And I think if, especially if you're having trouble empathizing with somebody in the moment, just using those softeners can do wonders when it comes to getting people to engage more wholeheartedly in the conversation.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And in my experience as a psychologist it's interesting because for the first few years in my work I wanted to do therapy really well.
I wanted to make sure that I was pulling out all of the psychological constructs and the verbiage and all the vernacular that made me sound really smart and made me present all these ideas to the client who, oh my gosh, had maybe never thought about that before.
And I realized, quite frankly, that it was horrible.
It went nowhere.
It was awful.
And it wasn't until I began to, and I remember actually the minute that I was in a supervision, like a supervisory role, and I was sitting with another clinician in in a therapy room.
They were doing therapy with the parents and I was observing.
And I remember she said, I would like us to all get curious.
It was mind-blowing to me because I'd never heard a therapist use that word before.
And I was like, I'm going to start doing that.
And the minute I started doing it and changing my language with my clients and allowing myself to be more in collaboration with them, rather than teach them, it just shifted the work substantially.
And I've never turned back because it's just worked so well.
And Clients are so much more responsive to it.
And similarly when I've done consulting work and gone in to C-suites and had conversations.
It never goes well when I try and teach them something.
You know, they all have egos too.
And so it's really about, I want to get curious what's working, what's not.
I want to be in collaboration with you.
Can we get curious together about this?
So I agree.
I think that word is a magic word.
Yeah.
And that's a really interesting approach too.
And I'm thinking about some of the conversations that I've had.
And I think actually saying that explicitly, let's both, collaboratively get curious.
Because the thing about curiosity is you can't say, yeah, that guy, he's so arrogant.
He's always curious.
Arrogant people aren't curious.
Exactly.
That's right.
And so you're assuming a stance of humility that's endearing, that's inviting.
And so you're not just saying, hey, I'm asking questions, you're answering it.
So you're the only person getting vulnerable.
But when you're saying, let's get curious together, you're saying, hey, I'm going to be curious too.
I'm going to be humble and vulnerable and I'm inviting you to do the same thing.
And it'll just lower the barriers in the conversation too.
Yeah.
And I think the other thing that it does too is it gives us permission to not have an answer.
You know it gives us permission to not end the conversation with either I've changed our mind or you've changed mine.
You know, it just gives us an opportunity to sort of like explore the uncertain, even if we're relatively certain in our ideas.
It's sort of like we can hang up that jacket for a little bit and just enjoy the party.
So I think that part is really important too, because I think sometimes and I'm sure you know this better than anybody that we enter into conversation with a specific goal in mind of that ending a certain way.
And how do we allow ourselves and give ourselves permission, both externally and internally, to not always end it that way?
Yes.
And Laura.
This is perfect timing because yesterday I was in a QA session on how to have difficult conversations about race.
So that's something that I've started to do this year, because with the American Negotiation Institute, you know, our motto is The best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations.
And so right now, the difficult conversations are in race politics, not just business and law, where I feel very comfortable.
And so I started off the QA session and I said hey listen, I want everybody to feel comfortable here.
This is a safe space.
And I'll be honest, I don't know all the answers here.
You're probably gonna ask something at some point where I don't know.
And that's okay too.
So don't feel bad.
You can't hurt my feelings.
And let's just assume the best of intentions.
And then, of course, as the conversation went on, a person asked a fantastic question and I answered it for a little bit.
But then I said, you know what?
I think I've reached the extent of my knowledge on this question.
And I know it's insufficient as it relates to an answer for you.
So I'm curious, too.
I need to go and I need to learn a little bit more, and then maybe I can come back and we can continue the conversation.
But it is so liberating in a difficult conversation and to be able to say I don't know.
That's a good question.
I'm curious about that too.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and I think, you know, it shows our humanity.
And I think in my work with clients, when I've said to clients because they'll look at me desperate, wanting me to fix them, wanting me to give them that magic golden ticket out of their depression anxiety addiction, bad relationship,
And when I say, I don't know, but maybe we could get curious about it.
It's like, okay, you know, we don't always have to know.
So I think it allows us to really take that turn of stepping into maybe each other's shoes, the shoes of common humanity, of uncertainty and unknowing.
Exactly.
Well, this has been great.
A lot of fun.
And I wish we could just keep on going.
So that means we're definitely going to have you back on the show.
But before you go, two things.
Can you give a challenge for the listeners?
And can you also tell the listeners a little bit more about what you do and where they can reach you?
Yeah, absolutely.
So the first one is actually the easiest one, which is a challenge for the listeners.
And what I challenge each listener to do today is to pick one thing to get curious about.
What are you thinking?
How are you feeling?
Or how are you behaving?
And just get curious about it.
Just get curious about, you know, what am I thinking today?
What are the thoughts that are popping up for me right now?
What did I think about this podcast episode?
Did I like it?
Did I not like it, right?
Or how are you feeling?
And try and use a word that you're not used to using.
And by the way, okay and fine are not feelings, right?
And then also how in terms of your behavior, like what are you curious about there?
Are you curious about why you're picking certain choices?
Or are your behaviors in alignment with your value system, right?
So that's my challenge.
Just get curious today about one of those things either the way you're thinking, how you're feeling or how you're behaving.
And where you can find me.
It's always the more difficult one, because sometimes I forget where people can find me.
So I am certainly on Instagram at Dr. Laura Pence.
You can also go to my website. drlarapence.com.
You can sign up for my newsletter, where I unravel something each week that to me, doesn't really make a lot of sense.
And so let's get curious about it together.
I've also recently come out with a product called Lifebox.
It's spelled L-I-G-H-F-B-O-X, which is a box of of 180 questions and prompts that spark curiosity.
So you can go to lifebox.com and check that out as well.
Very cool.
That's awesome.
Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
We really appreciate it.
You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next.
A fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge so you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in.
Joe, thanks for joining us today.
It's my pleasure, because I know you stalk me online.
So I've waited a long time for this.
And this is going to be fun.
Agreed.
Agreed.
So let's start off by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.
So for 25 years, I worked for the FBI, mostly working counterintelligence.
So I was a spy catcher.
And then 15 of those years I spent in this elite unit within the FBI called the Behavioral Program.
And that was created to take a look at spies and see how we can get into their heads and recruit them and negotiate with them.
And after I retired from the FBI, I started writing books.
Never intended for that to happen.
And now 14 books later, I'm here with you, buddy.
I'm here with you.
I love it.
And everybody, I have to say, my favorite book from Joe is the What Everybody Is Thinking.
I was just talking to Joe and saying I was reviewing my notes recently on the book and it's 24 pages of notes, size 11 font in single space.
So I highly recommend checking out anything that is published by this man.
And you have a new book coming out too.
So can you tell us about that too?
Yeah, thanks.
So you know, over the years people kept asking me you know, you write about human behavior, you write about body language and nonverbal communications.
Why don't you write something that brings it all together?
And so I did.
So I took a year and a half off to write the book.
Be Exceptional is the encapsulation of about 35 years of study of what really sets individuals apart.
And obviously that is their behavior, how they do things.
It's a good way to take a look at the science that's out there and the artistry of how we can differentiate ourselves, how we can take control of ourselves and use the strategies and, but in particular, the behaviors that that truly exceptional people all share.
And that's something that I've been studying for a long time.
So I'm excited for the book to come out.
Absolutely.
Me too.
And I think, something that's You'll see for the listeners.
I'm going to constantly pull this back to negotiation.
But what's going to happen is that you're going to see the commonalities of what it takes to be exceptional in whatever realm you happen to be in.
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Yeah, I think you're exactly right, because you know, if you're human, you're negotiating all the time.
And I think no day goes by that we are not parsing something in some way, trying to gain or not necessarily an advantage, but to work something out.
And so much of that has to do with communications.
You know, we forget good manners is a nonverbal.
That talking to someone with kindness is a nonverbal.
It's you know, it's not the words, it's it's the the manner.
And so, I think, a lot of negotiation that we do day in, day out and people ask me all the time well, you know, you're teaching, you come out and you teach negotiations and so forth, and your approach is a little different.
And I said, it's no different than what you do every day.
Only the stakes are a little different.
So one of the things that I was tasked to do when I was in the FBI watch, which was to target individuals who were intelligence officers for other countries, who were operating here what the public calls spies and to try and recruit them so that they would come and work for us.
And so a lot of times, you know, I would run into these individuals here and there and sort of make myself known and so forth, but never really approached them directly, because sometimes they were being followed or They themselves might take some action against me.
So sometimes we would try and pick out where would be a great place to run into these individuals.
And sometimes it was in what we call denied areas of the world.
And those were areas where you knew that the minute you land, you may be under surveillance, and so forth.
So we would find places to run into these individuals.
Now you and I have talked about negotiations and planning and everything that, the preparation and so forth.
But sometimes, in one case, I only had seven minutes.
I had seven minutes between the moment that this individual's plane landed in a country I won't say and his connecting flight.
And so I had to figure out through observation which is what really a lot of the book is about is what are his tendencies?
How does he walk?
You know, would it be best to just confront him directly, you know, by approaching him from the front or, as I finally did, by walking up beside him and sort of looking over at him and smiling.
And, you know, he had this look of surprise, but it's like, I can't even believe you're here, dude.
It's like, just keep walking.
Don't say any word.
And meanwhile, I'm just walking like I'm another passenger.
And therein begins the negotiations.
I, you know, it was one of these things where I didn't have to say who I was.
He knew at that moment finally, who I was, and you know.
Convince him, negotiate that I want to meet with you if you will, but tell me you know where that might be possible.
And the fact that he walked alongside of me, the fact that We never changed the pace, that he didn't confront me or anything.
And sure enough, the next time we had that opportunity, he did it in a rather clear way.
He knew I was nearby.
And rather than take the gum that he was chewing and throwing it in the garbage can, he took the gum and he wrapped it around a piece of paper and he laid it on the edge of the garbage bin.
And that set the meeting for the eventual cooperation with me.
And you know I look back at that and I think of You know, the companies that I've helped with in negotiations and the planning, the articulation, the craftsmanship of well, who's going to approach?
Who will enter the room first?
Who will be speaking when when the lead negotiator is speaking?
What is everybody else doing?
Because, you know, are you just sitting there?
You know, are you going to use your hands to gesture?
Are you going to nod in agreement or are you going to sit directly in front of the other person in a stair contest, which I don't recommend?
And so a lot of, a lot of similarities.
Obviously, you know we're dealing with nation state actors, but the craftsmanship that you use is is is the same.
Yeah.
This is fantastic.
And again, what you've done is you've taken what we know about psychology, human interaction and persuasion and you've taken it to the next level right.
By understanding human behavior in a way that puts you in a position where you can accomplish your goal, whatever the goal happens to be in that situation.
And that's why it's so transferable, because you're using these skills in the highest of stakes interactions, counterintelligence.
Spies, double agents and those type of things.
But the same psychology applies at the boardroom as well in these business negotiations.
Yeah, the same psychology.
You know, keep in mind, a lot of times in negotiations you're dealing with corporations and they have their own sort of mentality or history.
But then you have the history or what I call the luggage of individuals.
You know I was in negotiations down in Broward County where these folks the county and another entity are in every three years they're in negotiations and they have so much luggage.
And this is where unpacking that and understanding that we have to deal with that emotional luggage and we have to park it, you know that the concept of you know, put the ego aside.
Well, that's all said and good, but it's, it's not that easy that you have to understand the personalities and then how to best approach each other.
And sometimes having the right person make the right presentation is going to be the surest winner, rather than, you know, having somebody else doing it.
So there's a lot that goes into it.
Obviously, the more important the negotiation, the higher the stakes, the more effort that you can put into it.
Absolutely.
And Joe, in your opinion, what are some of the biggest psychological mistakes that people make during negotiation?
Oh, I love that question.
Thank you.
I think the biggest mistake is thinking that little things don't matter.
If, if I could you know, if I could you know, say hello McFly.
These, every little thing is important from the moment you walk in, how you set up the meeting, how you greet the staff, you know, saying hello to the security guards, the receptionists, everything else, being attentive to to to others in the smallest of ways, being polite, shaking hands, being mindful not to elevate emotions, something so simple.
You and I were talking recently about That we can increase face time with each other.
If we but would just angle each other a little bit.
Because to look at each other straight on is in effect very antagonizing.
And the minute that we can just sort of, even if it's just rotating a little in the chair, we can just soften the mood, making it an art form that you know, I'm going to let you speak, and I'm going to let you speak fully and completely.
Hopefully you will yield and then it'll be my turn.
And these little things from from, you know, facial reactions.
Right.
So we often talk about facial reactions and somebody will throw out a number and immediately you'll see the wrinkled nose and you know the shaking head and, and right away.
Now you've got to deal not just with the possibility of a no, but you're dealing with someone who is demonstrating this, which makes it even more difficult because now you have to overcome this display and so forth.
So it's I would say it's that recognition that the the small things don't matter.
I think most people in negotiations work the facts and work the.
But, you know, I know in the FBI, we would literally rehearse.
You know how we would walk in, who would walk in first, where we would sit, who looks at whom?
How are things transacted?
Who will say what words?
All because you know, in the theater of the interview or the theater of negotiations.
It's the small things that that really matter.
You're absolutely right.
And it.
I think that's one of the most interesting things about what you bring to the table with your expertise to really hammering home that reality.
And I think about the one of the classic sayings from chess is every move has a purpose.
You don't just make moves for the sake of moving the pieces.
There's always a reason behind it.
Absolutely.
For instance, when do we call recess?
When do we ask for a break?
When do we stop sitting down?
I remember I was giving a lecture up north at a really prestigious university.
And they were shocked when I said, well, why don't we just get up from the chair?
Just get up from the chair, put the chair in front of you.
You still got the conference room there and decide that you want to stand and and and talk about what you're passionate about.
Why are you talking passionately about something sitting down, you know?
And it's how we orchestrate that, you know, the use of the hands to explain, to envelop.
To to demark that we're talking about one thing and that we have studied it carefully.
Dynamically and that we have made a decision of how we're going to proceed.
Just those gestures potentiate the message.
And that's a great way to reveal your commitment to what you're saying.
So everybody, now you have a reason to follow our YouTube page so you can see Joe explaining with these gestures.
Because this is going to – maybe it doesn't sound silly.
Maybe this is the point.
But it was almost –
Right.
I was so in I was so almost invested in what it is that you were saying.
It certainly did have a much greater impact when you started to focus on the way that you were gesticulating.
Yeah, exactly.
I look at Colin Powell, who, you know, is really one of the great speakers out there.
He's a great thinker, a thought leader and obviously a great general and secretary of state.
And you look at how he used gestures to really powerfully message.
And, you know, throughout history, we have seen great examples of that.
And I find too many executives know the numbers but don't know how to communicate that information powerfully.
The fact that I can tell you that, look, this is our best offer, right?
So now you're up against a wall.
And my my thumbs are in a gravity defying position.
This is it.
There's there's no more movement here.
I am not vacillating.
I, you know, I'm not in any way going to change my mind.
That's it.
That puts an end to the back and forth.
You've reached that point where say, guys, ladies and gentlemen, this is it.
This is it.
And that message of visual as well as vocal becomes much more powerful and and and they have to react to it.
And it makes so much sense because, when you think about everything as communication, we have our voice as communication, our demeanor as communication, our tone, our intonation, our body language, what we're wearing, all of those things are communicating a message.
Absolutely.
The clothing that we wear, like you said, the gestures, something so simple, as you know how I reach for something.
Right.
So the person that's jittery.
Versus the person that reaches for it smoothly.
The higher we are, the more competent and confident we are in an organization.
The smoother our gestures.
The lower we are, the more tentative we are.
The more jittery the gesture.
So we would literally rehearse.
All right.
So now we've been at this for two and a half hours.
I'm going to reach for that glass of water and it's going to be smooth and I'm going to drink it.
Think of how many people have been criticized for.
Because they've been seen on the media where they go to grab water and it's shaking.
And, you know, I'm not going to name names, but I mean, I've seen Silicon Valley people.
I've seen, you know, heads of state doing this, not realizing that that tell that behavior is important is unsettling.
What I started thinking, Joe, is I'm thinking about humans as animals.
And I think it becomes more interesting, even more interesting if you think about us like animals.
So we would watch Animal Planet, National Geographic, those type of things.
And we're looking at the mannerisms of the animals.
And this means that this means this.
This is a dominance display.
And then if you think about us as animals, we are animals, biologically speaking.
And so we're going to be responding to the same cues that the animals out in the jungle would be as well.
On point, on point.
We are just another species.
We are primates, right?
And we respond to the alphas.
We respond to the hierarchy displays.
You know, this is why we dress up.
This is why, instead of having a big pen in our pockets, we have the Mont Blanc or whatever, because we're sensitive to these things.
But we're also sensitive to the gestures that come with higher status.
So you know, the higher status individual can engage in more eye contact.
I have seen negotiators walk into a room and they're so daunted by it all that all they do is look straight ahead and never looking around, not realizing that They're they're limiting their their ability to project confidence because they don't take the moment to look around and look at everybody present.
And in essence, as we learned in law enforcement, you know, I'm not scared of of this room.
I am confident in myself.
And so just eye gaze behavior.
You know the turn yielding that I spoke of even.
For instance, instead of saying no, Kwame go ahead, saying Kwame go ahead.
Let's hear what you have to say.
Whoa, I am now taking charge without you knowing that I'm taking charge by doing these gestures that are consistent with turn yielding.
And yet, all of a sudden, I'm the invited guest.
And now I am, you know, capitalizing on those powerful behaviors.
This is brilliant.
And so one of the questions that I've gotten before, when I was doing trainings, a young woman said well, I'm a lawyer.
And I'm in these difficult conversations, these negotiations all the time.
And I'm usually the youngest in the room, one of the few women in the room.
And I am five feet tall.
And so I'm significantly smaller, physically smaller than the other people in the room.
And like you said, Joe, everything has an impact.
And so people are going to perceive that size difference.
So what can somebody who is smaller do to make it so that the discrepancy in size doesn't create some kind of power dynamic that doesn't work for them?
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that question.
This is one that I'm often asked.
And yes, there is a height dividend, just as there's a beauty dividend, but we can compensate.
And the first thing we can do is compensate by walking in with that presence where nothing and no one is off limits for you to look at.
That you talk with with, with confidence, but with a Lord voice.
Right.
So this is, you know, in the military, they I know the Marines do this.
And this is one of the things that that I coach often is working on that voice that you know obviously you're not going to.
You know sound, you know as deep as maybe a man's, but lowering the voice people will listen.
Speaking, especially for women, speaking in cadence.
In other words, saying, I have a proposal.
And that proposal is is that we take into account everything that we've talked about thus far today, but also take into account everything from yesterday.
The fact that you can talk in cadence means you're owning it.
This is temporal.
This is temporal dominance.
And one last thing, and that is increase the vocabulary.
Make sure that you have a more, not a dominant vocabulary, but a more robust vocabulary.
Because one of the things that happens, our species, we humans, respond to whoever has that better vocabulary, and we will always be that way.
You know as, as wittgenstein said, the the limits of my language are the limits of my world, and so you are self-limiting if you have a limited vocabulary.
So i'm increasing the vocabulary so that um, You project that.
It's not about spending money on doing anything.
It's about changing the behaviors.
It's about changing what we do in that theater of the interview.
I love this.
Joe, I have to let you know, you are the first person to quote Ludwig Wittgenstein on the podcast.
So I appreciate that.
My favorite quote from Wittgenstein is, if a lion could speak, you couldn't understand him.
And it makes me think about some of the cultural differences that people can have in these difficult conversations and then what we could possibly do to overcome that and create connection in spite of those differences oh uh very different uh when it comes to culture you know and in america we have cultures within cultures within cultures And I appreciate this because this is one of the things that's covered in the book that we have to understand those words.
We have to take each other into account and say, where's this?
You know, we have to have that understanding.
And the best thing I have found is Can you explain to me what you mean by this?
Because I really want to understand where you're coming from.
And just, I love to front my ignorance.
I won't hesitate to let you know just how clever I can be.
But I don't mind fronting my ignorance and saying, gosh, I've never heard of that.
What do you mean?
Oh, I see.
And what happens is when we get others to explain to us things, they're becoming our cooperators.
I think we have two responsibilities.
One is to really understand what the other person is saying.
You know, when they say, I hate this.
Let's unpack that.
And the second one is that we have to come across at times as very neutral people.
So that we are perceived as someone who is at least reasonable.
This is great.
This is really great.
And one of the things, I want to take this all the way back to the beginning.
This was something that you said about the book.
Be exceptional.
And you're trying to figure out what sets people apart.
And you settled on of all of the things under the sun, you settled on behaviors.
Powerful behaviors.
Powerful behaviors, that in studying individuals over you know four decades because I was in this behavioral program in the FBI, that that it all happened.
It all came down to behaviors.
These individuals had mastery over their own behaviors.
They weren't allowing things to get to them.
They weren't blowing up. and throwing a fit and so forth.
Their behaviors were within that realm that others could respect.
That doesn't mean they don't have a bad day, but that means that overwhelmingly, they had mastery over themselves, that they were able to create an apprenticeship program, no matter how much adversity they faced.
They created their own apprenticeship program, whether it was going to the library and reading books or calling people up and talking to them.
But they created, you know, people talk about, oh, find your bliss.
And then the other behaviors had to do With this other area which is, you know, negotiations.
You're doing this the whole time, which is observing.
I was just interviewed yesterday for a magazine article and they said you know, now that we're coming back to a lot of us are coming back to work.
I said, watch out.
This concept of being able to perceive our preferences.
You're going to have people that are going to be uncomfortable standing too close.
You're going to have people that are going to be uncomfortable shaking hands too soon.
You're going to have people uncomfortable because you know somebody's wearing a mask and somebody isn't.
And we have to take responsibility for that and say look, if success is measured by our ability to communicate with each other, we've got to create an environment where we have an appreciation for preferences.
Because frankly, you know, I don't want somebody standing too close to me.
Not right now.
And we have to be able to perceive that.
And that requires observations.
And then the one thing that no negotiator will tell you is what they fear.
And yet that's In counterintelligence, that's always what we were looking for.
What does this person fear?
And when you can identify what that fear is, then you can appreciate somebody's final price point.
You can appreciate somebody's decision schema and vision. and so forth.
And the other part of what exceptional people had was this ability to communicate.
So we have to realize that words can only do so much, that we as a species, for at least 300 or 400000 years, you know, communicated non-verbally.
We had to communicate silently because we were surrounded by predators.
And so we had to move through the savannas, through the jungles quietly, but we had to do it effectively.
And then, of course, exceptional people, they act immediately, but also pro-socially.
And you don't realize the effect of that is.
These small things.
Believe me in counterintelligence.
We use these techniques all the time because you've got no other leverage than to use these little powerful things that your grandmother, or maybe a grandfather, threw a ball at you or gave you a piece of candy.
And that created this next area, which is the final area of the book, which is the power of creating psychological comfort.
And when you have psychological comfort, you can achieve anything, because humans gravitate towards psychological comfort.
And whoever provides that is going to win.
Joe, this is fantastic.
I, Like I told you before, I've already pre-ordered the book.
I'm so excited for this.
And so, before you go, when we think about the people in the audience, they're having these difficult conversations with their friends, their colleagues, their family members.
They're negotiating high stakes deals.
What is one thing that you would suggest that they do to start becoming exceptional at their craft?
You know, there's obviously there's thousands of things that I could say.
But if if there's one powerful thing in it and it's and it's a simple nonverbal is.
Just simply sit next to them, tilt your head, can't your head slightly, which communicates.
I may have an agenda, but I'm being receptive to you and query it.
Do a benign query.
Tell me about what you're thinking.
What drove you to this?
What is behind this?
Try to understand without imposing what you have to say.
Wow.
I've never heard it described as benign curiosity.
I think that's...
It's brilliant in its simplicity.
And for you, when you think about the term benign curiosity, how are you conceptualizing that?
Benign curiosity is a demonstrable attempt on my part to understand their position.
To understand this is how we value it.
What most people where most people make the mistake is they immediately begin to challenge.
No, I don't want to challenge that will come.
I want them to voice.
I just want to understand that.
As best I can, where they're coming from.
Now, obviously, some people are going to be stoic and they're not going to reveal very much.
And sometimes, you know, I want to explore the words that they use.
You know, you said that you were troubled by this.
What did you mean by troubled by it?
This is great.
Joe, I love this.
I appreciate this.
Thank you for the contributions that you've made to the field over the years.
And I am excited to promote this book and hopefully we can chat again soon in the future.
I hope so.
I think the work that you do is so great because I know you love knowledge and you share it.
And I think that's the most magnificent thing that we can do.
So thank you.
Thank you for having me.
That's the power of a masterclass.
One topic, multiple lenses, and real-world application.
Negotiation isn't theory.
It's practice.
It's self-awareness.
It's choosing courage over comfort.
So pick one insight today and apply it in your next conversation.
Because skill doesn't come from listening.
It comes from doing.
I'll catch you in the next one.
Hey, if you're still here, that means you really like this episode.
So why don't you leave us a review?
Five stars, please.
That really means the world to us and it helps other people find the show.
And now, I will catch you later.
