This episode of The Imperfects mentions suicide.
If this is a topic you don't think you can engage with right now, we suggest you skip and come back later.
My name's Josh, I'm the co -host of The Imperfects, and I'd like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded.
You know, we know that concussions aren't fantastic for the head, and might happen at a young age, you know, and I use copious amounts of alcohol and drugs every weekend.
and to try and run away from what was going on inside my head.
We're all imperfect.
And on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
I'm Hugh Van Cuylenburg from The Resilience Project.
And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.
And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
And this is The Imperfects.
I feel like a cup of joe.
oh you're in luck yeah yeah you're in luck a cup of joe williams you'll be getting today oh delicious or as he has probably been called more times than joe i feel like joey williams just as a sports person he's lived many different lives this incredible man yeah he sure has referenced he would have been called joey williams a lot i reckon okay joey williams let's stick with joe for today though okay just just to validate my cup of joe just so i don't have to delete my cup of joe gag okay yeah we'll keep it in yeah it was a strong start go wasn't it yeah clip it up George Joe Williams he has done
so much in his time on the earth he has well by the age of 13 he has been courted by five different NRL football clubs all year seven can you imagine I mean like yeah I remember my days at Oz kick and I was not getting the attention I thought I deserved from the AFL players at the The clinic, but Joe sure was.
Yeah, he was. He then, after that, went on to become a boxer, won some belts along the way.
So, you'll hear in the bio coming up that he has lived many different lives as an elite sports person and an advocate in the mental health space, doing really extraordinary work.
I think the things in this episode that really stood out to me were his reflections on racism in this country.
And it is quite confronting to listen to, but so important that we listen to it.
his struggles with substance abuse as an elite sports person which are really just him trying to work out who he really was um he also talks about his struggles with bipolar a topic that we haven't really discussed in this podcast before which i think is a really important one as well and then he talks about looking at racism through his kids experience of the world so trying to explain it to his kids and trying to make sense of racism with his kids as well which i think was a really um it's kind of heartbreaking to listen to but again really important that we do yeah do you know when i i called
a couple of people who i know just through the nrl just to in researching joe just to ask questions about it and one of the guys i called is a lovely man called peter robinson who have you ever peter robinson from the melbourne storm yeah uh yes i have robo robo yeah i know robo do you know that oh i just assume his nickname is robo well it was i mean it is It still is.
Yeah, Robbo. Robbo told me, so I was asking what he was like, and he said, oh, I've only met him a couple of times, and then he said this.
I'm interested to know if you guys know what this means.
I pretend that I knew.
Yeah. He said, well, he can throw hands, though.
Oh, boxing? Oh, okay, there you go.
I had no idea. Do you know it?
Yeah. If he wasn't a boxer, if Joe wasn't a boxer, I might not have gotten to it that quickly.
Okay. Robbo said to me, I don't know him that well.
I've met him a couple of times, but gosh, he can throw hands.
And so I just went along with it.
I went, oh, yeah, don't worry about that.
You can. Are you imagining like an event at the Olympics that you've never seen?
One that eventually got banned?
Oh, yeah, they did hand throwing for about 50 years.
In the 50s, they got rid of it.
It was just too gruesome.
So anyway, he said he can throw hands.
And I said, yeah, I bet.
No, there's no question.
And he said, have you seen it?
And I just said, yes.
Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, Hugh, tell me what you think throwing hands is then, mate.
Luckily, I didn't get any further questions on that.
Okay. But I did, I did very much pretend to go along with.
With throwing hands.
Sometimes, I don't know, sometimes I find myself in a situation where like, I shouldn't be pretending here, but I'm just going to.
Yeah. Oh, every time I get my car serviced.
Every single time. Yeah.
Now, Ryan, it's probably about time we change the tube sockets.
Yep. Yep. I would definitely agree with that.
It's going to be 800 bucks.
Is it? Is it? Is it?
When did we last change tube sockets?
About four years ago, I reckon now, mate.
Has it been four years?
Geez, definitely change those tube sockets then.
I don't know why I care so much that I'm looking like a fool in front of the mechanic.
Do you change the way you talk to a mechanic?
Mate, yeah. Do I what?
I'd definitely do it at a hardware store.
Can I hear it? I'll work at Bunnings or something I'll work at G'day mate Can I help you out Are you all good over there Yeah mate Just after some timber Yeah what length mate Yeah Oh look 70 by 90s would probably do 70 by 90s Sounds exactly the same You reckon We both sound exactly the same No Josh sounds exactly the same As he usually does 70 by 90s Not a measurement By the way 70 by 70 A couple of 70 by 90s Josh panicking He's going to get found out Just so you know I know No, the 70s, it's not a Tim Bar measurement.
Close your laptops, everyone.
Yeah. Anyway, so let's get into this conversation with Joe.
He is, yeah, he's so fascinating.
And I feel like the more time we spend chatting with people like Joe just the better we will be because he gives such an insightful reflection on his journey in his life, one with which we could all benefit from understanding.
Totally. um joe will joe williams joe joey williams if the pre -chat the pre -interview chat with the microphones office anything to go by uh we're in for a beauty here we are joined by joe williams uh who i've got a whole list of you've done so much stuff the fact you found time to be here today is we really appreciate Thank you.
You're a very busy man.
I'm lucky. I always joke with people and say that I've lived enough for about three or four people.
Well, let me actually just fill in the gaps there for people if you don't know.
But Joe is a former National Rugby League footballer having played at South Sydney, Penrith and Canterbury.
By the age of 13, you had five NRL clubs asking to come down to the club, which is quite extraordinary.
That is crazy. I suppose, isn't it?
In year seven. In year seven?
and that makes it sound even crazier.
In 2009, Joe switched to a professional boxing career and as a boxer, you twice won the World Boxing Junior Welterweight Championship.
And in 2014, Joe founded the organisation The Enemy Within, which is basically a mental health organisation doing incredible work.
Joe then went on to establish Our Way Academy, which works alongside schools to create environments which First Nations kids have a chance to build healthy relationships, explore their identity and contribute to their school and family in a meaningful and enriching way.
And I've just heard extraordinary things about that.
In 2017, Jo was named as a finalist for the Courage Awards in the National Indigenous Human Rights Awards.
In 2018, Jo was awarded the Suicide Prevention Australia Life Award for his work in suicide awareness and prevention.
In 2019, Jo was a co -winner of the National Mental Health Prize.
If that's not enough, Jo is an adjunct associate professor at the School of Psychology in the University of Queensland.
land. He was a proud Wiradjuri First Nations Aboriginal man.
Welcome. Jeez. That's pretty good.
That's one of the more impressive intros we've had I'd say.
Yeah. Look, I also get, I guess I get a little bit embarrassed because it's who I am or it's things that are who I've done, but it's also very much who I was.
A lot of it isn't who I am.
There's different parts of our life, who we are, and we all go through this in different parts of who we become.
But I'm certainly somebody right now who's on a path that I never, ever, ever imagined that I would have been on.
And I think I always refer to something that sits with me a lot is that the two most important days of your life are the day you're born and the day you find out why you're born.
For me, I had to go through some stuff to find out, I guess, why I'm here.
And we'll definitely get into that.
And I think identity will form a pretty big theme around this conversation.
And so I just want to ask you, you said just before the mic went on, ask me anything, which is great for an interviewer to be given a green light, but I just, I've been a bit unsure recently around the wording.
When you say Aboriginal man or Indigenous man, is there one that you would prefer or one that makes you feel more comfortable?
Because I have been told that we should be saying Indigenous.
Is that? I'm okay with everything.
You know, Because people are doing their best to navigate this way to build this relationship.
And some people call it reconciling or reconciliation.
I don't even use that term.
I don't even use that word because to reconcile is to heal a broken relationship.
And if I'm brutally honest, we haven't had a relationship with each other for 250 odd years.
It's just been a one -way street where nobody has learned about us.
we can honestly say now that that we beginning to and it's uncomfortable that stuff super uncomfortable because the truth of this place isn't isn't pretty of how we all got to to where we are now particularly around behavior you know the the behavior of who we are as all individuals is shaped in the very early years of our lives and what we see and what we learn, right?
Now, for a hell of a long time, the behaviors that have been modeled in our community are ones out of pain, discomfort, and hurt.
And a lot of the time, those behaviors, when you think about relationships or even instances in your life, if you can think of a relationship or a behavior associated with pain, hurt, or discomfort, it's not particularly a positive relationship a lot lot of the time so who we are for 200 years has been a people that have done their best to find our way back home is there anything that people can do when you chatting to someone you meet someone that someone can do or say that just makes you feel loved and seen for your experience and your people's experience I don't know if that question makes
sense but I just feel like what's What's something that people can do to express their kind of love for what you've been through, what your people have been through?
I think compassion is a big one.
Compassion and just understanding that my life and the work that I've come to with the work that I do now has been about just observing, being so intrigued with human behavior where I go, why is it that Hugh sits there and I'm super observant?
Why is it that Hugh sits there and scratches his hand with one finger and not the other?
There is a reason why Hugh sits there, actually.
I'm someone who is just super intrigued with human behavior.
And when you understand where behavior comes from and you understand the story, you just need to show people compassion.
But, you know, we all, who we are, we are all shaped by the early experiences that we all have. have. And in the early days of my life, I have a non -indigenous person who treats me disrespectfully.
And I observe that and I observe that with my parents, right?
If I observe somebody disrespecting my parents, watching me like a hawk in the shopping center, then that shapes my entire relationships with people that look like that for my entire life life until I begin to unlearn it.
Yeah, makes sense. That's all of us, right?
So if you're someone who's been taught and told that the dark people of this country are bad and violent and no good with alcohol and all of those different things, then you have to start to unlearn that and start to understand why people are the way they are.
Even if you're not told that specifically, it's like watching it in people, whether it be your parents and seeing your parents behave like that, then it seeps in.
It's the non -verbal cues that we all pick up.
As babies. You know, how we all have relationships, how we are treated, how my parents are treated, how they treat other people, shapes everything that I do.
I'd love to talk about the things that shape you then.
I mean, as a kid, we mentioned that you are obviously a prodigious sporting talent.
At the age of 13, you've got five NRL clubs wanting you down at the club at the age of 13 i guess how do you describe your childhood i was just a kid that just loved fui it sounds fantastic you know five on our old clubs chasing you at a really young age and all that sort of stuff and you know i i don't i guess hide that fact and i'm really grateful that it happened but there was also some i guess some some not so great markers that come with that as well like the pressure from external people and and And then the talk and the chatter around, you know, from other parents and the jealousy with that sort
of stuff. So do you mind going into that?
I'd be really interested to hear about that specifically, because that is, it must be for most prodigious kids in whatever area, I imagine that is sort of the dark side of the, all the glitzy, you know, like praise and everything you're getting and the attention, there must be a lot of pressure.
So in terms of like the specific pressure or the comments that were being made, what What was your experience with that?
Mine was around racism with that because if you could play a little bit, the one thing that I guess parents or other players can try and bring you back down to earth in a moment would be to target you because of your color, which I got a bit as a kid.
My younger boy actually, Ari, he was judged for not being dark enough.
so then he come home with all this does that mean i'm less aboriginal than anyone else the next time we have a cultural event he's sort of sitting there going i don't know if i want to do it today dad you know i guess the first thing a young aboriginal boy does is that this is generally speaking but a lot of what we do is we act out and because it makes us so upset that we that we feel We feel victimized.
We feel attacked. That the only thing that we can control is this anger that we've got going through our blood and our body just wants to explode.
That's what a lot of people do.
Now, I was one of probably one or two Aboriginal kids that was at the school that I was at and racially vilified and called the names.
names you know i won't go into the names here but um and then when you explode and you start throwing your hands and then you get in trouble for the violence that you're showing um i was really lucky that that my mom had my back with that sort of stuff um and mom was up and she you know she had my back when it comes to the school principal stuff got suspended all that i went home it was time to face dad dad said what happened and i said how to fight he goes you're I heard. And he goes, what happened?
I said, I got suspended.
Kid called me a black da -da -da -da -da.
And he said, I want to ask you a question.
And I also understand that not a lot of people may agree with this or not a lot of people will be able to respond in this way.
But my dad said to me, he goes, what color are you?
And I said, I'm black.
He said, oh, so you belted a kid for telling the truth.
He said, be upset with what he called you after that word, but never be upset that he actually called you black.
He said, the only way you'll ever beat racism isn't with your fists.
He said, you'll only ever beat racism with intelligence and facts.
So from that day, I just learned so much about history and learned so much about the truth of this country so then whenever i i i'm encountered with racism um i i my response to that is through truth and through intelligence rather than throwing my hands what age is this sorry joe you were that was in the i that that situation yeah it seems like a lot of it is to with power as well like the racism racism always is about power and therefore i imagine Origin as you were saying the acting out or in in your case fighting taking your power that's taking power back at least you can control that but then
as your dad so brilliantly put that's an intelligence and being proud of who you are is another form of power isn't it yeah yeah it is um I think intelligence in those moments because they're trying to make you feel inferior because Because that's what it is, right?
I always, when I talk about race, I talk about it's about making somebody feel inferior.
Again, other people can agree, disagree with that sort of stuff.
But I think back to this, right?
Is that the very first people who got off the boats, generally speaking, looked at the coloured people on the land that were there for thousands of years before they even turned up, thought those people are worthless.
They mean nothing. They know nothing.
and we are far much more superior than that's what white supremacy is right we are so much more superior than what they are and they told their kids that well their kids observed that going back to the behavior thing that we're speaking about earlier their kids observed those type of behaviors and then they taught their kids that and all of a sudden five six generations down the line here we are today right so again so I understand that why people still feel superior to coloured people is because that's all they've been taught and all they've known.
The entire existence of their families being here on this country since they first stepped off the boats, right?
The only way we take that power back is by teaching them the truth that everything that happened back then was out of a place of, you know, superior mindset and and thinking feeling that they believe that they were they were better than and the natives knew nothing like how different our conversation to be today as a country as a nation how different our conversation would be if they got off the boat and said holy smokes these people have been here for at least a hundred thousand years in the same harsh barren climates that we're seeing now January January they got off January 26 like would have been
hot surely, right? If they got off the boat and said, holy smokes, we can learn some more from these people.
But they didn't. They got off the boat and said, these people know nothing.
They're less than us.
The superior mindset from that.
And then that is taught down generationally.
And here we are today to a point where in my lifetime, we didn't even learn about the true history of this country.
on to your story when you said before you from that moment you thought i'm going to learn about who i am what's that journey look like and how does it start in that moment the biggest lesson i didn't learn was about history the biggest lesson i learned was about okay next time this happens i don't get to learn to regulate my emotions when this happens because we know that what they're trying to do is trying to assert dominance what we know is trying to do is they're They're trying to make themselves feel smarter than what I am, right?
So that was the first thing, and it hasn't been perfect.
There are going to be people that listen to this and go, I know the Joe Williams that I grew up with wasn't that person.
And he wasn't. We all go through life and we learn.
So it was about, I guess, gradually learning things.
When we look at January 26 or what's called Australia Day and then we look at the National Anthem and then I learn about the National Anthem and I go, you know what I mean?
at like a national anthem, like the original lyrics is a five -verse song written about England.
So I go, hang on a minute, like you don't get taught that stuff.
Okay, so I'm going to learn about that.
You know, it literally talks about people coming across the seas to live here and, you know, call Australia their home.
And then I go, in my lifetime, we sang God Save the Queen.
Wow. So like this is the stuff where people say that Joe is so divisive with things that he says and does.
And I go, like that was all that, you know, back in 2000, I think it was 16, when the Australia Day Citizen of the Year thing back in Wagga, again, when I didn't stand up for the anthem and then that sort of gained some national attention with what that was because I had local councillors trying to demand and then I hand back the award. It was an opportunity to go, like, why do you sing that song?
You know, let's have a look at the identity of who we are as a country.
Let's have a look at the identity of who we are as a person living in this country, and do we really want to stand on that?
You know, we live in this country, and we all love this country.
You know, many of us love this country and this place that we call home, but the stark reality is and the facts are that it's It's safer for certain people and not the others.
What does that do to your, as a teenager, your own mental health?
It's something you've done, put so much work into now in your career.
But I'm interested to know your mental health journey as a kid, as a teenager navigating racism, navigating the pressures of what must have seemed like it was going to happen.
You were going to play rugby league footy.
What was your mental health like as a teenager?
age are i always talk about the the three really significant things that happen around the same time um and and i saw my first deal when i was in year seven when i was when i was 13 year old first scholarship was a scholarship one my parents always said um you know we're signing one one year at a time sort of thing we're not gonna lock you away because we knew that you know clubs or they thought the clubs um sign a kid for five years and they don't talk to him again you know like but mom and dad were really smart they said we don't care about anything we don't care about money none of that sort
of stuff what we care about the most is our boys education so the club who looks after our boys education is going to get him so in that moment paid for my paid for my schooling um pretty much for every every deal that i had in throughout those years um was about schooling wow yeah which which that was the one thing that happened the other thing is that i had a massive massive concussion at a really young age because you're playing against grown men weren't weren't you, or like big, much bigger body?
Yeah, I went from under 13s to under 18s.
Whoa. And then I played my first first -grade trial that off -season as well.
So I was 13, played in the under -18s competition, and then that off -season I played against what was the Newtown Jets in a men's competition, yeah.
So I was 13, and I got to play with my dad.
Wow. Yeah. And the concussion you spoke about before, forward that took place in one of those seasons or yeah just so so um in one of those seasons around about the same time um when i was when i was it was actually in a junior game not in the senior game um but it's if anyone's had a concussion you'll understand what i exactly what i mean when i talk about the insecurity that concussions bring as people just started this conversation inside my head that just got louder and louder and louder and more constant and progressively got worse and started planning thoughts, plans and ideas to not be
here anymore. So that conversation just got louder and louder and louder and more negatively.
And let's just say it, planned thoughts, plans and ideas with every situation I had every single day, crossing roads, walking down streets, all sorts of stuff where the conversation Conversation or the idea of suicide became louder and bigger and more entertaining.
And the only way that I could escape it or silence it was to drink as much as I possibly could.
And that was at a young age.
And you think about this, young kids, troublesome, young teenage boys, get on the drink, all that sort of stuff at parties.
I was no different.
it's just that I wasn't I didn't like who it maybe turned into I didn't like the taste of it I didn't like how it made me feel it was the only thing I could do to silence what was going on so my head and that all started with the concussion well I I believe so yeah the research we know around head knock soon concussion now and the impacts that it can have on them on a person's mental health is wide you know we know that that concussions aren't fantastic for the head and mine happened at a young age, you know, and I used alcohol and then, you know, by the time I moved to Sydney, the bright lights
of the city were on and, you know, I was down there chasing my dreams to be a footy player, playing in the lower grades in the NRL system, using copious amounts of alcohol and drugs every weekend to try and run away from what was going on inside my head.
Again, hated who it was but you could disappear for days and people didn't know that you'd gone in the big city.
And, you know, all that – to that point, you know, there was some negative things that were going on that were impacting my footy life, impacting my personal life, you know, and then that was the time and the day that I, I guess, after some serious conversations with myself and some people close to me, the days that I decided to walk away from a lifestyle of alcohol and drugs and started to walk the path of sobriety.
So did you – a big part of footy culture having been part of working with footy teams, especially in our oil sides, and hearing the stories of what it used to be like, it blows my mind.
Way back then. Yeah.
Did you stop drinking and using drugs while you were playing professional footy?
Was that during that career?
Was that a hard thing to do?
Yeah, end of the 2005 season.
So then I played 06, 07, 08 sober.
I just had enough. Like there's everything negative that was happening in my life, whether it be on the footy field, relationships, everything.
Everything negative that was happening in my life, there was one common theme and it was alcohol and drugs.
And I thought to myself, maybe if I get rid of this stuff, I'm a chance.
but I remember it was we used to play in a touch footy carnival down at a little place called Yass out near Canberra and it was always the weekend of January 26 and I grew up playing at that carnival and then a friend of mine who was a partier, right, and he was a really good mate that we played touch footy with and I said, where have you been?
He goes, I just don't go out anymore, Joe.
I thought, wow, really?
And two years had gone past, and I'd not noticed that he, you know.
So it's just funny that we still sit on the same stools in the same bars telling the same shit stories.
But, like, we had this conversation in the backseat of the car on the way down to Yash from Sydney, and then Yash was a party weekend always.
And he was like, you know, there's no coincidence, Joe, that all the bad stuff that's happening in your life, like that there's alcohol around it.
And then I was like, like, I just didn't, I didn't give it that thought, but I always wanted, I always wanted to not drink.
That made sense. It's just, but, but I'd never, I'd never seen anyone not do it.
Wow. I said, I said to him, that's it.
when I get back to Sydney, I'm going to quit drinking.
I'm going to stop. And he said one of the most confronting things I've ever been said in my entire life.
He said, why don't you stop now?
That's so annoying.
I was like, I've got to give it one more tilt.
And then I went out that night and then the next day driving back in the gala sydney hung over as 25 men um i went to the rooms of alcoholics anonymous on that monday wow yeah yeah that's incredible discipline nearly 20 years ago man geez yeah and it hasn't always been you know sober from that first jump you know i got i got sober and was uh it was about 11 months thereabouts and you know things were going great like i was starting to get better with with things on the footy field and all that sort of stuff and relationship and all that.
And then I was like, oh, no, I can give it one more go and then had a bender for about a month and quickly realized that I didn't want to be that person and that was 18 years ago in December.
Yeah, so it's been a journey.
Like throughout that journey, I've had – obviously I've had deaths.
I've had marriage separations, separations from my kids, you know, challenging parts of my life, suicide attempts, all that sort of stuff, psych ward stays, all that, and I've never needed to drink.
I've wanted to a stack load of times.
And that is so unbelievably impressive.
Yeah. It's probably like we think it's impressive because it's so normalised in Australia's culture where, you know, alcohol is readily available available yet documented as the worst drug problem Australia's got, yet it's applauded and celebrated, you know, without - I think it's impressive because it was your coping strategy and then when things were really tough down the line, you went, no, that's not going to be my coping strategy now.
I think, again, timing is important, Hugh, and also hindsight is important.
I didn't know that that was a coping strategy, right?
I only know after years of reflecting, going, oh, that's what I was doing then, right?
And then getting sober, I'll go, all right, I've got to get my head into something else.
Maybe that's the thing that's silencing what's going on in my head as well.
But it was always about essentially dissociating from what was happening inside my head, really.
And unfortunately, that can be things like relationships and my eyes looking elsewhere and stuff like that, which is never great things.
But it's about trying to unpick who you are authentically.
and starting to live with that.
But without a doubt, you know, sobriety, getting sober, saved my life.
I'd be dead or locked up without it.
I wasn't a violent drunk or anything like that, but I was a pest. I was the guy who didn't know when to go home because it was like the fear of missing out on things and stuff like that.
Yeah, so one thing I'm most proud of is that my kids have never seen me do it.
Yeah. Amazing. Did anyone else, sounds like they did at the end, but did anyone else know what was going on in your head and that you were using, I mean you probably didn't know you were using Bose.
I also, like you don't realise that, you know, I can't say as an 18 -year -old now that I was using to silence what was happening.
Like it's 20 -odd years down the track I go, wow, that's exactly what I was doing.
Like I was just fitting in.
The conversations around mental health weren't anywhere near what they're like now.
Yeah, of course. Like 20 years ago in a male -dominated sport where the tough guys get to the top, I didn't want to show any type of what I thought vulnerability by saying that I've got a voice inside my head tell me to die you know i'm trying i'm trying i'm trying to make the team every week yeah you know so there's challenges with that um must have been very lonely one lonely but here's the other thing you don't talk about it to anyone because no one else knew about it because i also thought i had the understanding that if i'm going through this maybe everyone goes through this but is there is Is there
any part of you that thought, because I can imagine if anyone was getting this sort of like external praise that you would have been getting in terms of your footy, even now, I think people definitely as adults, if things are going generally well for you in life, it's hard for people to speak up and talk about their inner demons because they don't want to seem like whinging, like they're whingers or they're ungrateful for this great opportunity.
I think there was a point in time where it was about being scared to talk about it because of what we thought was this thing called stigma and it was forbidden to talk about it.
So I think that there was very much a timeframe where that was the case.
I don't think it's the case now.
I think subconsciously we are almost wired to not talk about it because of the early interactions we have as kids.
Yeah. We're always told to shut up when we're crying.
stop sookin you know I I know you know communities that that the old um you know don't cry or I'll give you something to cry for sort of thing like those those type conversations I'm I know those I know those conversations you know subconsciously we start to go when that comes up for us I can't do that now yeah oh I I can't share this because I'm because for the last 10 times I've been told to shut up crying.
The last 10 times, like I've been whinging.
For the last 10 times, I've just been a little sook.
And then as 13, 14, 15, 16 -year -old kids, we go and get on the piss with our mates and then we start talking to our mates about it and then our parents go, but why don't they feel comfortable talking to me about it?
But they don't know what they actually did for the last 10, 15 years because it was a subconscious trait that they took on from the way that they were parented.
So they didn't have their feelings validated, one.
So the uncomfortable feelings in those moments is not about my little one actually crying.
It's about me not being able to cry when I wanted to cry and that triggers me.
Like if you think you've got nothing to be triggered about, go and have kids.
Do you think like obviously you've done so much work on yourself and you're like a different person than you probably were when you were a teenager, as we all are, but I think do you reckon like in terms of what you're talking about there with like parents and how they interact with kids, particularly around like vulnerability and like being okay to like express your feelings, do you think that's getting better?
The conversations are there, right.
But, you know, I can – you just said I've done a stack load of work And I have, right?
So I've done loads and loads of stuff on myself.
What triggers me? How come it triggers me?
How do I respond when I get triggered?
All of those sort of things.
And it's still a challenge for me every day.
Yeah. You know, I've got five kids from three relationships where my partner now sees a very different Joe than what my previous two did.
So they can sit back and go, oh who the hell is this bloke to try and give parenting advice when because that wasn't like that literally who I am now is a completely different person because of the work that I've done and I just I look back at that Joe and go you know I shudder at some of the things I used to do and say I don't I didn't know any better because like I mean I feel like we're jumping around a little bit here but that was there was there an event because I mean you talk about like these suicidal ideations from when you're a teenager and was there like an event or something happened
or something changed in your life which I mean was it as sudden as like I need to do work on myself or was it a gradual shift okay let me you just said we jumped around let me get you let me get us to that point that'd be great all right so um challenges challenges alcohol and drugs got sober um 18 18 years ago right um got sober from alcohol and drugs 18 years ago and I realized that I was using substance to turn the noise down, take away the substance, what happens?
Noise goes sky high.
Holy shit. Got some work to do.
Right? So then separated from my marriage, repartner, had another child, three kids, two separate relationships.
All I wanted to do more than anything, more than a sports person was be a good dad.
It wasn't being a good dad.
It wasn't being a good person.
Separated again. I'm like going, what's wrong with these people just to jump in sorry joe but like did you realize you were not a good dad no after you'd be after you got sober no no because i thought like i i i thought that um i was doing the best that i could yeah with the tools that i had but i always knew that i'd wanted better i didn't know how to do or be better that was the thing which must be so common Hugely common. Yeah.
Went through some challenging circumstances around suicide in 2014, psych ward stays, all of that sort of stuff, getting to this work that I do with The Enemy Within, travelling all around the place, realised that it wasn't mental health that I was battling, it was challenges with trauma and the impacts of trauma and the forced changes in behaviour.
So then I learned as much as I can about trauma, get to the path of understanding that, educating other people about that.
that the pandemic happens the world closes down all of a sudden i'm sitting at home with three little kids and i realized one of the biggest realizations of my entire life is that i'd been a father for 18 years and a dad for two and i was like holy smokes i don't know how to do this thing because i was i was when i was a dad firstly i was playing footy right so i was i was either training or playing for six days a week and then i was going through addiction so I was completely out of it on prescription pills and alcohol and drugs the entire time.
Get sober, separation, repartnered, separated before he was even one, that kid.
So now I don't have any kids around.
And then I get into this relationship, but then I'm constantly dissociating and finding a way to escape what was going on in my mind by throwing myself into the work.
I was on the road 310 odd days of the year in communities, you know, hundreds of communities across the country with the work that I was doing, at the end of the day all I was doing was running away from myself.
The pandemic happens.
I go, I'm not allowed to go anywhere anymore.
I'm not allowed to do anything.
I've got to sit with this thing that's screaming at me inside my head.
What the hell is it?
Thank you for that.
I really want to ask you more about parenting and something that you said specifically before.
I don't know who said this first. I can't remember who said it, but being a parent is a bit like watching your own childhood through a window.
Oh. And I certainly feel that as a parent and it brings the best and the worst out of me, I think.
And I wanted to know when you said it triggers stuff, what has being a parent triggered for you?
That I haven't been patient.
Oh, wow. Right. What's an example of you being impatient?
Temper. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I go from zero to 100.
When I go up to 100, it's really hard to wind back.
One of the biggest challenges with my youngest daughter has been articulating what it is that I want to say so it doesn't land in a fearful way for her.
I'm just frustrated and I'm trying to get it out, right?
So articulate and then take a breath and go, no, darling, what we need to do is just put that back.
back. All right. We can wait till dinner.
And there's going to be times where we go, shit, I didn't want to do that.
And I said this and I didn't mean it.
I don't know about you guys, but how many times, I know I certainly have as go, dad's really sorry.
I didn't mean to say what I said.
I was going to ask you about sorry.
The power of sorry.
Yeah. I think the power of sorry and the power of admitting that you didn't mean the way it came out.
Yeah, yeah. There's a lot that needs to be said around validating how it makes people feel.
Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry that you feel like that.
I can see that it really upset you.
And Dad, you and Dad can sit down now and we can have a conversation about how it made you feel because Dad doesn't want to make you feel like that.
Dad doesn't want you to feel like that.
Thanks to someone that's in this doco, this doco called Scene that you're in.
thanks to Lyle Stone who was on the show I've sort of been in the process of saying sorry to my kids because I make mistakes all the time as a dad and like you what you said before it's like that's the thing I want to be that's the most important thing to me is being a good dad and um and I was having a chat with my oldest who's only four after I'd done something like I'd slammed a door or something I was really angry um about something and um I I, after coming out of that room and went up to him and I'm like, I'm really sorry about what happened before.
How did it make you feel?
And he told me he felt scared and I just felt so low at that point.
Cause I was like, that's the, you're the person in the world, you and your brother and your mum are the three most important people in the world that I never want to make feel like that.
But I had already done it and I'd done it and there was nothing I could do to have changed that but to be able to have him say that to me and then me really apologize for that was just i'm so grateful that i picked up that lesson from lael because it's it feels like there's a chance for us to mend and maybe he'll say that dad's not perfect either like dad's making mistakes but at least i'm trying to i'm trying to be better and you're understanding me a bit here there's there's parts in that doco where where i sat down with with particularly my two oldest kids.
Um, and we had converse, there was conversations that were so deep and they were like, they hit me with some stuff between the eyes that I just went, I had no idea that you felt like that.
And they, they, you know, they're taking their own power back in that moment.
And they go, dad, that, that wasn't cool.
Cause I lived in the bush in the country and I lived in the city and they were like, we thought that you only came to sydney you had only saw us when it was convenient for you to be in sydney for work and i was like oh like i want to see you every chance i get so like that that doco that process of that doco um was really beautiful for for us as a as a family um for all of us and all all of the kids you know like all the kids love each other but i can also understand why my eldest two might be a little bit resentful around who I am as a dad to the youngest three because they would have liked this dad
they would have loved this dad you know and whilst I text them every day or try and call them every day dad still wasn't there when they were crying how does that make you feel able to not be able to get that time back mate mate like it's that's why i just go you know i i wish things were different i wish things could were better um but you know the brain is this incredible thing that that is continuously malleable to the point where if we still do the work the brain will still wire for connection with our kids so i try everything to try and mend what happened mend the relationships of who we
are as as as three now them young adults me getting an older adult but as three people three individuals to really grow what we what we didn't get to grow and that to to the to the next point where i don't want to rush them but I'm like I can't wait to be grandfather I don't want to rush those grandkids are in for a treat it's also different like is it is it I was 21 21 when I had Brodie playing in the NRL like ego out of control you know all of what comes with that and I just didn't know how how to be a dad and i was really at home because of my life lifestyle and when i wasn't playing footy
or training i was out doing things that i shouldn't be doing anyway so i just i just didn't i i always wanted to be a better dad i just it wasn't like i didn't know how to be because like literally all you all you do is just spend more time with them but it was like i was almost scared to do that as well.
Like there were times I can reflect.
There were times I didn't want to be left at home with my kids.
I didn't know what I was doing.
Yeah. Oh, that's heartbreaking.
I didn't know what I was doing.
And then, of course, the mothers can go, he doesn't want to spend any time with the kids.
Like I want more than anything to spend time with my kids.
I'm just terrified of doing the wrong thing.
Yeah. I mean, I don't have kids, but I'm amazed just from what I observe.
I'm just amazed that how much presumed knowledge there is when it comes to parenting.
I'm just like, because I look at anyone who parents and I cannot believe they're doing it.
And I know you just kind of have to.
So you just sort of, you do your best, but, or you make the most of your situation or you don't.
You know, it's like everyone's got a different story and different situation.
but it is amazing to me how hard I hear that it is and how it's just sort of, you just kind of, you go to the hospital, have the baby and then you go home.
It's like, all right, good luck course.
It's almost like everyone expects you to know what you're doing.
Yeah. It's wild. I did want to ask you, it's kind of hard to really answer this question I guess but you are the person you are now because of your experiences like we all are.
But have you thought much about like what's your, I guess, like relationship with regret?
I'm grateful for absolutely every negative experience that I've ever had in my life and that can be hard for some people to hear and I'm not saying that I would want to go out and do it again but I can't even sit here and regret what happened with things like my suicide attempt and things like that because that catapulted me into a place to learn about myself, the brain, which then led me into the parenting space, which then leads me into becoming a better dad to rebuild some of the best relationships that I could ever build.
I failed every subject at school, but one, I can't regret even those days at school when I wasn't listening, because now I've written my own autobiography, I've contributed to loads of different other books, I'm now doing a PhD.
Everything happens the way it's supposed to happen on the day that it's supposed to happen and you get to exactly the point where you're at right now because of those experiences you do you have a memory of the months and days and hours leading up to what you mentioned before with your suicide attempt and how dark a place was that for you in that i can 100 % say that people and this is and this is to the thousands and thousands i've spoken to around around the world that have been fortunate enough to be able to come through situations like that, is that in those moments we didn't want to die, we
just didn't know how else to end the pain.
We're in so much consumable pain that we don't know what else to do, right?
And it is so dark, it is so painful, and the noise between your ears is just screaming at you that that you are so worthless, that you don't deserve to live, and that everyone, this is the important thing, is that everyone believes that you'd be better off not here.
That is the most challenging thing about all of it, is that depression convinces you, it robs you of reality and convinces you that you don't matter.
In those moments, it convinces you.
I'm a fairly mentally strong person.
right and i've been to some some some really tough places physically and emotionally prior to that and then physically and emotionally after that but in those moments it convinces you and beats you with a stick to genuinely believe that the world is better off without you okay uh i mean thanks for sharing that you must get asked to speak to a lot of of people who are in that dark place.
I'm interested to know what you say to people who are, for anyone listening right now who feels themselves in what you just said, what do you say to those people?
Is there anything you can say to those people?
Yeah, I say to those people, I promise you, I promise you, and I'll look you dead in the eye here, Hugh, and say, I promise you things can and do get better.
Not will, do. They do get better with time, persistence, and some effort to just start to learn about yourself.
Because what we also know and understand is that every response that we have in our head, every response that we have with our body, how we feel, what we are triggered by, all of these things is a very natural and normal response to other experiences that we've had in our life.
So with time, persistence, and starting to dive in to understand it a little bit, when When you start to dive in and understand it a little bit, you can start to unpick where it's at. How does someone do that?
How does someone, yep, I need to understand myself better.
Where's a good place?
I mean, is it, are we talking therapy here or is it?
Yeah, I think, I think therapy, if you're not, if you're not a therapy person, I've never been a therapy person.
I'll, I'll, I'll openly admit that I've had a crack at it.
It just hasn't worked for me.
Maybe it was because I was too guarded and wouldn't, wouldn't, you know, and other, other times it's because I just didn't connect with the therapist. For me, culture, getting out in the bush and sitting with cultural people and understanding that there's different lessons and values that we learn through different means.
So it's therapy, really.
That is therapy, but it's just not in the Western sense of what therapy is.
The other thing is to understand that everything that we go through now, every thought, every feeling, every response that we have is a very natural and normal response to a very unnatural environment right so that book what happened to you i don't know if there's anyone here anyone that read that book that is an absolute game changer yeah an absolute game changer it changes because when people are like this we always go what's wrong with me yeah what's wrong with me or what's wrong with that person why do they keep doing that right why do they why do they continuously turn their back on their
family me and go down and get on the drink every weekend.
Why do they do that?
What's wrong with them?
And we all say it, what's wrong with me?
And that book changes the conversation of what's not what's wrong with you, but what happened to you.
It doesn't have to be the big capital T trauma, traumatic incidents that we know are super damaging.
It doesn't have to be that.
it can be the little nuances in behaviors and the experiences that we have that shape who we become as adults that is very powerful beautifully said um how hard is it to go from a place of and i'm guessing you're there but you could tell me if you're not um of looking at yourself when you've when you look at yourself in that way when you're in the depths of depression, there's a severe lack of compassion and self -compassion.
How hard is it to go and how does one go from that to being able to, it seems like you have a level of compassion now for yourself and for the younger you that you were doing the best you could given what you had.
I think what I'll say to that is that I judge myself every single day but I also rate myself every single day.
One to ten, even if things aren't great.
if i'm at one all i gotta do is get to two right what what what can i do that can get me to two right we know that 26 minutes of rigorous exercise equals enough endorphins to produce naturally in the brain for 12 hours of better moods and 70 percent thereabouts of what we eat acts as a direct food source to our brain so if we're feeling like shit there's every chance we're not moving our body and we're eating rubbish now there are many layers to that and And what that is, I understand that.
But what I'm saying in that moment is that I put the priority of how I'm feeling as priority.
First thing I need to do is move my body and start to eat better because when we're depressed, what you want to do is lay in bed, seclude and isolate from everyone, and you want to eat rubbish.
And this probably speaks to everyone, get out in the bush.
right for me getting out around a fire aboriginal people did that for a hundred thousand years right we had 10 therapists sitting around the fire we just didn't have a piece of paper on the water tell us that's what we were yeah yeah you know it was it's about natural being in in the in the world's natural environments um we have we could learn so much i mean like the dreaming path which is paul calhoun's book this is a perfect book i think to read i mean it it's It's got so much Aboriginal wisdom, knowledge that we just do not access enough.
And like that book is such a good entry point for anyone who wants to learn more about that.
The role that intergenerational trauma plays on the mental health of, you know, your community, is that something you must think a lot about that?
No, I sit down and have conversations with the older people, you know, auntie's uncles, great auntie's uncles and my nan.
and talking about how the whitefellas used to come and the way that they used to speak to my dad and his brothers and sisters when they were just babies and stuff.
Like having conversations like that.
And then that little thing inside you boils and then you go, they're all like that.
But then the reality goes, they're not all like that, Joe.
Like that's what intergenerational trauma is.
It's just a natural response that comes there because of the experiences and the things that we observe throughout our life.
It's super challenging to work through.
And you've got to understand as well, I'm someone who is probably a wee bit further on down the road of processing and understanding and identifying what that is and how it plays out in my life in comparison to others.
so i have the same challenges that brothers and sisters have when they crack off and want to blow the joint up when we get violent i have the same response it's just that i can slow it down a little bit and go no no no no no because of all the different experiences i've had the different lessons that i've had throughout my life from the likes of uncle paul gordon uncle paul calligan again.
But also people like my mum and my dad, they go you don't have to do that Joe.
That's right. You're not in danger here.
So once you start to breathe deep and you start to slow everything down and start to talk to yourself, talk to the little version of you.
We've all got that little version inside of us.
Start to talk to the little version of you and go it's alright here Joe.
You're not in danger mate.
It's okay. Just in the research I read about you, it said somewhere you had been diagnosed knows with bipolar is that right yeah yeah we haven't talked about bipolar on this podcast ever before and i would love to ask you questions about it is that is that all right i said that go for it yeah i was gonna crack a joke then but go for it yeah of course yeah so it used to be it was um labeled as manic manic depression um so so bipolar is by right so two two things and i'm not the world's best at explaining things but how i explain it is huge highs huge lows so we all all go through highs and lows
except the mania is when you're up on this and you've got these grandiose ideas of wanting to go out and spend my biggest one's spending um so one of my one of my symptoms um of when i'm manic i spend heaps i'll spend every last dollar that i've got and then go and then courtney will go what are you doing you just walked home with 10 suits what you're not going anywhere why do you need tensors i'm like I'm like, shit, I have. How did I do that?
Because you're in this moment and you're just going, wow, everything.
The world's – you feel amazing.
You feel unstoppable.
You're just so grandiose with how high you are with different things that you're just constantly spending.
And, you know, with that can come some behaviors that aren't fantastic either.
And then there's the other one, the depressive moments.
So it's stopping those from going huge highs and huge lows.
and how I do that is exercise when I'm low and meditate when I'm high, right?
And that presence of being out in the bush I touched on earlier, for me, like Courtney said to me multiple times, it's time to get in your swag and piss off for a couple of days because you're not right and it's impacting all of us.
Go out there, I know you're safe and she'll say, are you safe?
is it and and and i think i know what you mean by are you safe but what do you actually when she asks are you safe what is she actually asking there's been multiple times too many times to count where i've driven off out of my driveway looking in my revision mirror not knowing whether i'll come home or not okay because i've been so at war with what goes on between my in in my head.
Do you have techniques or things that you do to try and pull yourself out of that?
Yeah, I ring the right people.
I ring the right people if I'm at that point.
Is that a hard thing to do though?
So when you're at that point to call someone?
It was, and it has been over the years.
Actually, a really good friend of mine, Dr. Nyree Brown, I remember at the first time.
She's an incredible woman.
And if anyone knows as Doctor Nye, look at the work that she does with young people and trauma and understanding.
She was actually my doctor at a lot of my fights when I was boxing and she's stitched me up a few times and things like that after getting knocked around.
But yeah, it was confronting one time.
I remember the conversation I had with her and she said, darling, pull over.
Are you safe? Is everything all right?
And I was like, yeah, Doc, I'm okay.
And like I was crying.
I was crying and then she just talked to me and wove her magic and then I'm like, I'm all right now.
Yeah, I'm good. Because they're fleeting.
For me, they've always been fleeting thoughts, right?
And then whilst they dive deeper and get deeper and deeper and harder and louder, it also what seems like it can be an hour of thinking, it's about 15 seconds.
So it's always fleeting.
I just know that I have to get back to presence and I know that it will pass.
it's it sounds like you and courtney have a beautiful relationship and you guys and you are so i have such an open dialogue about your what's going on in your head but talking about suicidal ideation with someone who loves you and cares about you so much that must be a very difficult conversation or how do you go about that you know those type of conversations caught like she's very different she doesn't communicate like i communicate it's it's because she's a very she's a super reserved person and i guess i can reflect on it by by by this right is that there was there was one time and you know
if you can scroll through my social media pages and stuff like there's probably three pictures of her out of the thousands that are there because she just doesn't like to be she's not a person that likes to be in the forefront right but so she doesn't like a great deal of public events and things like that she's just a super reserved person um i remember that i was really i was at a i was in a really bad way really bad way and i hadn't come out of the room for a number of days and as much as she hates people public all of that sort of stuff trying to paint a picture here she come she come in to
me and she said she knows that i'm i'm a music lover and i'm a massive troy cassidaly man like i love love troy troy every time he comes to dubbo um he reaches out and says brother i'm in town you know do you want some tickets and stuff like that um and i was in a real hole and and court come in and said get up and have a shower oh, we're going to watch Troy – we're going to watch Troy Cassidaly tonight.
And, like, I knew that she hates that, you know, but I knew that that was her way of reaching out her hand to go, Joe, you're not right here.
And she put herself – she put herself in her most challenging space base around people to get me out of it if that makes sense selfless super selfless in that moment um and i go and i like and i just go in that moment like i i must be not i mustn't be well here because she's putting herself and and and it mightn't seem like a huge thing to you but anyone who knows her anyone who knows courtney knows that's a big thing and this is not a slight on Troy Casadaglia, it was just the crowd.
She just don't like people.
A close brother of mine put it so perfectly when he said, she's that old woman who sits at the fire in our community or our cultural ways.
And she will make sure everything else around her is going good.
Everyone's fed, the kids are warm, everything's safe.
She's that old woman that makes sure everyone's right like that.
And that moment that night, I have that post on my social media actually because it's a picture of me and her and she hates getting a picture taken.
It was just a picture of me and her at Troy's show.
And I remember instantly it was like people who are going through depression say it's like a dark cloud.
It was like the cloud went away after that night.
might we should say it's Troy's music or we can say it was Courtney's she'll cringe at me even speaking about this I wrote I wrote it about it in um in my book actually what's your book called sorry for people who want it defying the enemy within and goes right through you know in depth the story of things but also the probably the most important part about the book is the last the last third of it where which talks about everything that I do to get well i wrote about it in my book that you know she lost her mom to leukemia and she had leukemia at the same time as her mom going through you know
the chemotherapy and you know so she's a super guarded person and i think you know there's many reasons as to why we are the way we are and why she is the way she is but super guarded person and a person who's just been so selfless super fortunate to you know wasn't supposed to have kids because of the you know the chemo and everything that she went through as a young person as well so um you know really really grateful that i can have those conversations and it wasn't one not too long ago actually it wasn't a really dark deep conversation about i just went i'm not doing too good and she's like
what do we need to do what can we do what do we need to do right response you are a fascinating man you're so generous with your storytelling I've only given you a little bit today okay it is such a privilege to chat with you we we think you're amazing thank you for joining us mate it's been an absolute pleasure it's been good sometimes I can have conversations that that people find difficult to hear.
But please, from me, know and hear it that I'm only trying to help the world understand that we can be in a better place.
Thank you, mate. Thanks, lads.
So nice to meet you.
Thanks very much. That was awesome.
Thanks, Joe. What a fascinating guy.
An unbelievable life.
And a directness and kind of determination towards honesty and improvement.
Yeah. Like bettering oneself throughout their life.
Pretty remarkable person.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why.
I mean, it's sort of obvious why this came up for me, but I found myself thinking a lot about my own adolescence while listening to Joe and talking to Joe.
and there was some things he talked about then that really distressing things about that he'd gone through.
But he was talking a bit about getting concussions as a young person playing sport and I was thinking of this sort of like hyper -masculine, like rugby and footy.
I played like junior footy rather than rugby.
Such a hyper kind of - Aussie rules.
Aussie rules, I should say, yeah.
Certainly when I was playing it as a kid in the late 90s, early 2000s um and i assume it's still the same today but there's such a um a premium on kind of toughness and it makes and thinking about his story makes me reflect on my own story and also how much i've changed as a person um but also like i carry a lot of shame about the kind of sportsman footballer i was back then like i completely understand why you're thinking this because he did talk about quite a similar journey of reflecting on who he was as a footballer and who he is now and he's just a totally different person like that's who he
was he talks about that's who he was it's not who he is anymore yeah and it's complete contrast the man he's now to what he was and I this is obviously the same with you well yeah and I think I ironically I think a lot of people wouldn't guess this about me or even a lot of people wouldn't have known at at the time but as a like sort of i guess as a year eight or nine kid i started playing footy in about year seven year eight i was a lot bigger than the average kid i grew a bit earlier i was quite strong and off the field i was i think as i've spoken about on this podcast before i was trying to
be kind of perfect in all ways i was very polite very friendly i think probably a the teenage version of the person you're seeing now.
Play songs at assembly?
Yeah, play guitar. Yeah, played music at assembly.
The Holy Grail? Yeah.
Really? Got up at assembly and sung.
And I think I had a sort of an image for a lot of people as kind of, and I'm using the term that I felt at the time, but a kind of very, in inverted commas, soft person.
And so I started playing footy and I wasn't very good.
Like I was not very skillful.
When playing, I was very good at hurting people physically and hitting people.
You mean like you wanted to, like you meant to?
Well, yeah. I think in about year eight or nine, I got...
You weren't like punching people.
No, but it was dirty.
Like I used to call it a shirt front, which has now been outlawed. A hip and shoulder, yeah.
Hip and shoulder in the sort of chest and chin, which is quite dangerous.
It's now illegal. But I was quite, like I remember there was this kid who was at an opposing school, and at that age you're such different sizes.
He was tiny. Like I was in year nine.
I was probably the size I am now.
He would have been basically a kid.
And I tackled him so hard that I'm pretty sure he ended up in hospital.
And I remember it was like really celebrated.
Like it was celebrated amongst, not amongst the players, amongst the coaches.
Like you put a kid in hospital.
Yeah. And the story going around of like, well, that's cool.
That makes you tough.
I can imagine. I can just imagine that.
Like obviously now knowing how horrible it is to go to hospital and like to be sent to hospital, but yeah, as a kid, I can so imagine how that would have been, particularly within a footy environment, so celebrated.
I still remember, I feel so bad because I still remember the kid's face face like when I was when I heard him he was terrified uh and it yeah I feel a lot of shame about that and about and this was like tackling and bumping and I wasn't throwing punches I wasn't like it was I had this weird thing in my mind of like well it's it's on the field it's all it's fine it's like part of the game it's almost like what can you get away with within the rules yeah yeah exactly right if we parted against each other I would have stayed so far away from you Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I did that in year nine and I won this.
And funnily enough, my kids found a - mum and dad had a box of trophies at their house and my kids were going through them.
And the oldest boy, Charlie, found this award that they called at the school the Die Hard Award, which is for like the toughest player.
And I won it in year nine.
And he was asking me what it was for.
And I felt really - I didn't know how to - I didn't want to explain what it was for.
I kind of changed the subject and didn't tell him because he can't read yet so he couldn't read the words so I sort of I love the movie Die Hard the most But truth is like for the rest of my playing footy days so like year 9, 10, 11 for the rest of time playing that was all I was sort of known to do and was my job on every team was to hurt people people and I'm not over -exaggerating when I say I think I probably concussed at least five or six people.
Really? Wow. And at the time it was always like, everyone celebrated it after the game.
It was like, look what you did.
That's awesome. It sort of becomes like notches on the belt or something.
Yeah. Yeah. And I hated it every, like the more I played, the more I hated it.
the more i hated i was doing it i think one of the reasons i was doing it was because as i said before people kind of joked about me being soft and being a bit weak and being this is very much the language of 14 year old boys in the late 90s but they assumed because i was singing at assembly and and inverted comma soft i was everyone said you like there was a lot of jokes about me being gay and stuff like that um and so i think being physically tough on the field to me felt like oh this is me being proving them wrong to change the narrative changing the narrative and proving that i'm very much
inverted commas like manly and tough and a real bloke and one of the and kind of one of the boys like one of the team i mean in in in your defense for the time it's like not only were you a kid but also the unfortunately footy role models of like the 80s and 90s it was about toughness it was that yeah yeah and not and toughness was defined by hurting other people yeah yeah and like the i remember watching the electrifying 80s video and the nervous 90s video oh yeah i had biff's bumps and brawlers bumps and brawlers it was it was and they really there was a full montages of like it was the whole
dvd yeah the whole vhs yeah just like Like guys like running into and hurting each other and the commentators being like, oh God, can you believe he's absolutely left him?
It's not like now it's really serious and not encouraged, but back then it was definitely encouraged even by professionals.
Well, yeah. And certainly celebrated by the adult males who ran the footy teams, like the coaches, the role models at the various teams I played in.
and then by like by the time I was 19 I was still playing footy and I got hit in amazingly really wet day extremely heavy hard ball I got hit in the face from like a guy kicked it from about a foot away and I had a weird twinge in my neck and an ambulance was called and I was taken off the ground and in an ambulance because they're like you might have done something to your neck and I was so happy I don't think I was that injured at all to be honest but I kind kind of faked it because like i just don't want to play footy anymore i hate the person i am on the field i don't want to hurt people anymore
i can't do it in any other way so i can't contribute and be part of footy oh god there's that that is so josh isn't it like that's so you to feel like to even at that age to realize how horrible that is like like i can't do this anymore yeah i think a lot of kids myself included would be if i was in that position i'd feel like oh this is great great, I've got some currency here.
Like people are, you know, but it's so you to acknowledge within yourself.
You're like, this is really, really bad.
I've got to stop this.
Yeah, mate. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I guess thank you.
Classic Josh. But then, so I guess I just want to bring it up.
I don't know, just to admit that I feel really bad about that time in my life.
But also to say how confused I was as a kid and a teenager about what it is to be like tough.
what toughness is i and then now as a parent i've got two two boys and my youngest boy is very a really strong little he's only two and a half but he's a very strong little boy who's very good at advocating for himself and he's very physical as a little kid will wrestle will and i found myself the moment he was when he would like fall over and get up and not cry eye, I found myself being proud of him for being tough and this ingrained thing of like, oh, look, he's a little tough guy and he stands up for himself.
And even though I came to a point in my life where I've, that's not me and that's not the person I want to be, I still, I was impressed by a two -year -old being in quote tough in the same way that I was trying to take on that the only idea of toughness is physical strength.
so i think it's a really confusing area about what it is to be a male there's so much that's confusing about being a man and there are infinite ways to be one but i think it's really confusing when it comes to the idea of toughness and what that is and the way it's role modeled um i i but then i look at some of the people that we've interviewed on the show who I would consider that are definitely role models to young men like Pat Cummins, like Billy Slater, like Harry Garside who's a boxer, literally trains for boxing but shows such a different projection of what it is to be tough, those kind
of men. And I just hope that the situation for young boys today is very different to what it was for someone like myself 20 years ago.
That there are so many, there are infinite ways to be a man that is not aggressive to other people or that shows a version of toughness and masculinity that is, there's multiple ways.
it's duplicitous there's um you can there's many ways to be and it doesn't involve um pushing that toughness on other people i think um i don't know if i'm making any sense here yeah absolutely it's a really complicated area but yeah it's such a it's such a good thing to to ask like yeah what is what is toughness for for a man now because like the yeah without wanting to like i haven't thought about this but yeah it feels like all those people you mentioned before and I guess like what we're what we're always trying to do is the vulnerability part of it which is sort of part of that can be like
um I guess like almost like listening and admitting you're wrong at times I to me I think someone who is like really vulnerable that to me is tough now I think That was in school.
Yeah, yeah. But now I think, gosh, when we have someone come on the podcast and they speak really openly about it, I just think they're really tough.
But we could probably change that word, yeah.
Just so impressive.
Impressive. Yeah, resilient, open.
For so many men, for most men, it's much harder to talk openly and be honest and speak vulnerably, not even publicly, but just like to one person than it is to go out onto a footy field and like line someone up and run through them.
Being vulnerable, that's much harder and like much more impressive.
Yeah, it's a great reflection.
I think there are a lot of men listening to this episode.
I think reflecting on who you truly are, the journey you've been on, the versions of yourself, the ways you've tried to project your, the ways you've tried to hide.
Like we're all insecure, but the ways, what have you done to try and hide your insecurities and I think it's really interesting.
Yeah, and if I think of Joe's life, I respect his willingness to confront his own life and his experiences and the person he wants to be and the father he wants to be now.
That's the part that I admire and respect about him rather than the fact that he was probably a pretty tough rugby player.
Or boxer, yeah. oh box sorry Boxer as well um that's the yeah it's uh those are the qualities i think i would like to have in myself yeah i agree i agree yeah i mean i could box if i wanted but i choosing not to yeah me too yeah you and me boxing against each other would be quite funny throwing hands you serious no thank you it'd be interesting battle though i don't think any of us would connect at any point we'd be hugging pretty quickly.
I'm so sorry, mate.
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
I think I actually connected on your chin before.
I'm really, really sorry.
That was horrible. It was not necessary.
You didn't deserve it.
You are a good guy.
We are good mates. I love you.
I actually love you.
What are we doing? Ding, ding, ding, ding.
Anyway, very grateful for Joe's time and Josh, that's a really beautiful reflection.
Thank you. Thank you, Joe.
Thanks, Joe. Hugh, it's Ryan did I ever tell you that I was a championship boxer and that I won two Australian titles like about eight years ago maybe I hope not because I think when we met I was going through a really big lying phase and yeah, when we were doing this episode with Joe it just reminded me of that I might have said that to you um I wasn't a boxer uh surprise surprise I know that's probably a bit shocking but um yeah not not me uh and I just also thought while I was coming clean on that I just I've got a bit of a list of things that I also might have said to you and I just wanted
to clarify so yeah just just bear with me um okay I wasn't raised by wolves um I didn't meet William Shakespeare When I was really little, I don't grow a legal fruit for the mafia.
I can't eat a thousand French fries without blinking.
I am a real boy, but I was never a puppet.
I can't spell Gerard Depardieu.
And I know this one might hurt a little bit, but I'm not ticklish.
I was just faking it that night.
So, yeah, I'm really sorry.
if I misled you on any of that, particularly on that last one.
I know that was a really fun night.
Anyway, it's Ryan Shelton from the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, there's a very good chance you'll love the Vulnerability Mail, our weekly newsletter to help you remain imperfect.
Each week, we'll send you one vulnerable question Thank you.
in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
