Hi, welcome back to Eat Your Cress Podcast.
I'm Jisu and I'm Crystal.
So today we have a pretty interesting topic which is job limbo.
But before we dive into that, Crystal, what is our Gen Z word of the day?
All right, today's word, Sash phrase, is one that I like, I have no explanation why, but I just I love this phrase.
It's catching strays. It just makes so much sense when you see it in context and I think it just adds another layer of funniness to whatever's happening.
So basically what catching strays means is you're like getting unintentionally insulted when you weren't even the main topic.
An example could be like you and I are talking and I'm like, oh, don't worry, Jisu, like you're great at this game, unlike so and so.
You know, that third person is just catching strays.
Dude, I love this one as well.
And I could like, it's a really easy one to use because this happens a lot actually in real life.
Yeah. And I also like to think of this as like collateral damage.
It's like the damage is intended for one person, but someone else who sometimes isn't even in the room is just taking the damage as well.
It's like AOE damage. Oh my okay, I'm trying to find some examples on Know Your Meme.
And here's a funny one. It's basketball related, but I think you can still kind of get the gist.
This one basketball media guy, he tweets, Blakers acquire second round pick, take Michigan State's max Christy who shot only 32% from three last season.
Perfect. He'll fit right in with LeBron and Westbrick.
Oh my god, that one is like a triple Wombo combo right there.
Yeah. I see this a lot on like reality TV subreddit too.
Someone will be like, oh my god, this guy is so horrible, but at least he's not as bad as this guy.
And it's just like a random add-on person.
Yeah. And I think it's also really funny when it's more subtle too.
And then someone's like, wait, hold up, like this person just fucking catching strays.
There's another funny example on Know Your Meme.
I don't even know who this guy is, but the original tweet is, again, I ask, when are we going to start slushaming common?
And then there's a bunch of pictures of this common dude with like a bunch of different women.
And then on the bottom right, there's a picture of him with Elmo.
And then the reply is like, how did Elmo catch a stray?
Wait, I'm dead. You know, honestly, maybe this term is birthed out of people wanting to be inclusive.
We're just trying to include everyone.
And this one works really well in person too.
Say you're having a conversation and you're like roasting your friend, but your other friend is nearby and you want to loop them into the conversation.
You just toss them a stray.
And now they're all insulted together.
Probably the funniest is when like someone doesn't even realize that they accidentally insulted someone else in the midst of, you know, the whole conversation.
And then people are just like, wait, what the fuck?
Why are these people just catching strays?
Oh man. Yeah, this is a good one.
And I feel like this one will live for a very long time.
Because I remember this came out a couple of years ago.
So it's not like the newest link phrase or anything.
So it speaks to its longevity a little bit.
Oh my god. I thought of a good one.
Yeah. If I were to say something like, oh yeah, Gisoo, you're not that short.
Like, you're not a short as our other friend who's only five two.
They're like, wait, what the fuck?
I didn't even say anything.
That would be for sure catching strays.
Well, catching strays aside, let's talk about the topic at hand, which is as you mentioned, feeling job limbo.
So start this off. Let's try to define what exactly job limbo is to us or how we perceive it.
So I think you can kind of get a sense of what this phrase means just by looking at the word limbo.
I have felt job limbo at times where I might feel stuck in my position, maybe stuck at the company or just in general.
I feel like there's no progress even forwards or backwards.
And I don't think this is always just an external thing.
So I don't think it's always about the company or the team.
Sometimes I found that I experienced this on an internal level as well.
But just in general, feeling stuck somehow some way.
Yeah, I think I would agree with that, especially if you just feel like you are stagnant in growth or learning even, like it almost feels like you have plateaued.
And there hasn't been as many new experiences or worthwhile experiences, I guess.
Not to say that like every day has to be, you know, some crazy new thing happening.
But I think once you start to feel really like, oh, I can just autopilot at work.
That's probably a sign.
Yeah, I can definitely resonate with that.
The other times that I found that I felt job limbo is if maybe I'm feeling insecurity in some way.
So sometimes you might still feel like you're growing or learning.
But if there's changes going on at the company or on your team or even recently, there's been a lot of layoffs at a lot of tech companies as well.
I feel like anytime that happens, you start to feel a little bit unstable in a sense, feeling that kind of instability, whether it's in your motivation or your drive or your growth, I think always kind of leads you to the state of limbo.
Oh, that's true. When you're kind of like, oh, God, am I about to get laid off or am I safe?
And that's such a like terrible feeling.
I remember back in the earlier waves of layoffs when there were all those leaks.
And I remember the general sentiment of these people after hearing like, oh, this company might lay off X amount of people by, you know, next week or like two weeks from now.
And people are just like, oh my God, what do I do?
What if I'm one of those people who are going to get laid off?
What what did the next two weeks mean to me?
Right. And I guess that's the thing too.
It's like limbo is oftentimes something that we feel because we're maybe waiting for something and for something like waiting for a potential layoff announcement or maybe sending some sort of instability.
And these are things that don't have a true end date.
So then I feel like that can also really add to the limbo feeling of I'm waiting for something but like when and why am I still waiting around?
Yeah, it's almost like decision paralysis.
You're like, I don't know what to do now.
And then I think that definitely lowers motivation.
It definitely lowers morale, which is probably one of the bigger things that honestly keep us going at work.
Definitely. This is also something that I think about sometimes.
I'm like, I wonder how obvious it is to your manager or your teammates or even like cross functional partners.
How much someone is kind of feeling this job limbo because I have definitely seen signs of it in like co-worker sometimes.
And I'm sure when I was really going through it, my co-workers have seen it in me as well.
As much as it would be nice to like keep it contained.
I do feel like there is a little bit of an external aspect to this as well.
That's true. It's kind of like the people who have you know, already put in their two weeks notice and you can tell them the next two weeks they're just chilling.
And like you don't want to bother them either because you're like, oh well, they're going to be gone anyway.
So there's no point in you know, piling some work on them right before they leave.
Right. It's just like everyone knows that this person's like half checked out.
Oh, dude, yeah. But I do have a question for you because I feel like some of the things that we talked about like the factors that lead to job limbo or make us feel job limbo are similar to things that cause burnout.
So do you think there's like a difference between job limbo and burnout?
I think yes, but I think at the same time there's definitely an overlap because I think if you're constantly burnt out at work, you kind of enter some sort of job limbo.
And I don't know what you're waiting for.
Maybe you're waiting for like a break or like a vacation, but you know, maybe it's just like inconvenient timing or maybe you don't want to just take a random day off.
But I think there's definitely overlap there because burnout also eats at your motivation and morale.
And sometimes burnout can be caused by maybe like work that you are realizing you don't actually want to do.
Yeah, I feel like like you said, these two things are definitely linked.
And baby job limbo is kind of a form of long term burnout.
How long can you sustain burnout before it becomes something that you can't stand anymore?
And that kind of propels you into the limbo of it all.
So do you think there are any like notable signs that point towards burnout or job limbo?
I think one thing that I can think of is if there's no like forward moving progress, like I mentioned earlier, and I feel like that actually comes in multiple forms.
So one is if you're stuck at the same position for a long time and not getting promoted or you're not getting handed like a bigger scope of work, you are truly just stuck in a sense, right?
You're like stuck in your old R&Rs, rolls in responsibilities, and there's no like movement forward.
So I think that is definitely one big sign.
The other sign is not seeing forward progress in your work.
And I feel like the other thing too could be you just get frustrated from not seeing for removing progress in your work.
And one big sign is like say you've been working on setting up processes for something that you feel like is going to be a game changer for your team or your department.
And despite the new process, you still keep getting asked the same questions over and over.
You feel like you're just in like a infinite loop of answering the same question.
Yeah, exactly. I'm just like reliving the same day over and over.
Then I feel like that could also really make you start feeling stuck.
That just feels very repetitive.
And I'm sure, you know, at a certain point, it makes you start to question like, oh, why is this just like the same thing every day?
Do you have also a side note?
R&R, when I first got into the work, corp culture and all that, and you know, there's a lot of like corp slang and stuff.
I know R&R as rest and relaxation.
The first time someone was like, yeah, can we get like the R&Rs in order?
I was like, wait, what? Like are we not talking about work?
What are we talking about?
Rest and relaxation? You're like, oh, yeah, I have a vacation line.
Oh my god. Also, have you seen that TikTok?
That was like, if you say R&R, it sounds like an australian person trying to say, oh, no.
Oh my god. Yes. I've seen that.
Arnard. Arnard. But back to the repetition and burnout of it all, I think another aspect slash sign is if you're trying to get out of that repetition by maybe like taking on new projects or sending new goals for yourself, but none of these goals and projects are exciting or enticing to you.
Yeah, at the end of the day, it is work, but I feel like it should also spark some sort of joy, otherwise we're just robots at work waiting for free time post work and like on the weekends, which I feel like it's just unsustainable.
You would lose motivation twice as fast, right?
Then I think you're totally right.
Sometimes at a gut level, it's really like, am I feeling excited or am I feeling hopeful or any of these positive emotions or do I just feel dread, tired, stressed, that kind of negative emotion?
And I feel like some people are really good at taking on these more like repetitive tasks and you know, they thrive in that.
So all the more kudos to them, but I feel like me personally, too much repetition sometimes can get very old, very fast.
So I feel like to me, there needs to be a certain level of yeah, as you said, like excitement or just like something interesting that keeps you going like, okay, I know I have to do this one boring project, but it's okay because I know I have this other more exciting project on the horizon, something of that sort, like you know, having that balance.
Totally. I'm definitely someone who thrives on like structure and routine.
So I actually don't mind repetitive stuff as much, but I feel like you can do a recurring task without it feeling repetitive.
So say your recurring task is like a weekly email or like a weekly report or something like that.
You get really great feedback every time you send it out.
Then I feel like each week is still new.
It's rewarding. Like you know, people are reading your stuff and benefiting from your labor of love.
But on the flip side, if it's always met with no response or there doesn't seem to be a lot of gain from the work you're doing, I feel like that can start to feel really why am I doing this?
Yeah. And I've been reflecting on this a little bit, but I feel like just because you hit this certain point of is my work actually benefiting people and the company or do I really feel excitement and joy about what I'm doing, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're like doomed to be in job limbo.
I feel like it doesn't mean that you have to do something drastic, but it is like that first warning sign.
So it's like once you start to feel this, what do you feel comfortable doing?
Like are you comfortable enough to go to your boss and see if you can kind of switch things up?
Are you comfortable creating new processes and trying to like push the improvement of what you're doing from your scope of work?
And at the end of the day, this could be a starting point to discover what you want to do and what kind of work makes you feel really fulfilled.
Yes, I completely agree.
I think starting to realize you might be headed towards job limbo or just having that feeling of job limbo is when you need to start re-evaluating things.
Just like you said, you know, whether that means you need to look at your job holistically and be like, is this what I want to do?
Or if you need to like look at the more minute details and be like, Oh, you know what?
Maybe these are small things I can change.
Or maybe sometimes it's even just to take step back and take a look and be like, Oh my god, I haven't taken a vacation in two years.
And I need to give myself like a week off at least and just reset and see if that helps with the burnout feeling.
It's like that moment that we've spoken of before where you go to the bathroom, you know, at a party and you look at yourself and you're like, Okay, what is happening right now?
I need to like figure out what I'm going through.
Dude, that is like the perfect analogy.
Yeah. And I feel like you do need to have that like moment of clarity with yourself.
And and like we've been talking about, there's just so many factors that contribute to something like job limbo.
I feel like what has helped me a lot in the past is taking a look at like every step of the ladder.
So first, I'm like, do I like my work?
And then I'm like, how am I feeling?
Like, is there step outside of work that's causing me to feel like this at work?
Is there something that I can do to improve my daily routine?
Maybe like build up more stamina, work out more, go out more, hang out with friends and just like make myself generally happier.
And then you can start to evaluate every step of the chain within your work, right?
So it's like your boss, your team, your department, your company, and honestly, even your job and your career path.
And I think sitting down and being really honest with yourself about a lot of these things, especially when you're younger and kind of earlier in your career is so crucial and key to kind of diagnose what is wrong.
I think what also kind of helps is when this moment comes upon me, I kind of look back at my work and I think of what I'm grateful for in it.
It's like nice to remind yourself sometimes too.
Like, oh, actually, you know, I am really grateful for these aspects of my job.
And then maybe you can make like a pros and cons list and then kind of reevaluate, oh, but are these pros worth the cons?
Or it's like, oh, actually, dude, it's only like two cons.
I'm like forgetting about how grateful I should be for all these other things.
And I feel like that sometimes helps spark up some positive feelings again.
It's like a gratitude journaling for your work for your job.
Dude, I love that. I think I've done something similar, but in a little bit more of like a five-year plan kind of a way, at times where my job limbo felt pretty high, I actually forced myself to like sit down and chart out like 13-week sprints essentially.
So really, it's like quarterly goals, right?
And I would see what kind of things excite me at work, also write down things that I don't like love doing.
And then journal it all out on paper first.
And then that could be something that I maybe take to my boss and like my one-on-ones, right?
Like, hey, things like this really excite me, and I feel like would be super stimulating.
I don't love doing these tasks, but I'm happy to do them.
And then at least even if you still have to keep doing those things that you don't like to do, you're at least planting the seed and being vocal about it, which I think really is something that helps birth change.
Like your manager might still need you to do this right now, but let's say they get a new head count in like half a year or something.
They might remember like, oh, you know, Jesus said that she doesn't like doing this.
Maybe with this new person, they can help take this offer plate, something like that.
So true. I feel like I used to always fall in the trap of internalizing.
I guess every like perceived problem at work.
And then I got advice that was, well, you can just tell your manager that you like these projects more than the other projects.
And I was like, what the fuck you can do that?
But I was like, wait, that makes so much sense.
Because yeah, as you said, maybe you still have to do some of the more boring projects, but at least you know your manager, if they're a good one, is looking out for these other certain projects that they know would bring you more joy at work.
Because if you're a happy worker, you're going to produce better work too.
So yeah. And I feel like a slightly more cynical way of looking at it too is like just because you're the type of person to not be vocal about these things, it doesn't mean that other people on your team aren't being vocal about it.
So your coworker, who is on the same team, we're putting this say manager, they might be able to kind of over the years fine tune their projects to mostly what they want to do because they are being active and transparent about their likes and dislikes.
But you might have a worse split than them because you didn't vocalize your opinions.
In some ways, you are kind of missing out a little bit.
And I feel like if you think about it, this is for the better of yourself and actually ultimately, probably for the team too.
If you're in a better state and doing work that you like and producing good work, that's ultimately better for the team too and like the people around you.
So I think that's like something I had to learn too.
You don't have to just put your head down and like do the work and just take everything.
It's definitely okay to voice some of your opinions and hopefully have your voice heard.
And I guess if things don't get better for you, then that's a sign of you know, like further action that you might have to take, whether that's re-evaluating and finding a new job or thinking about what roles do bring you happiness and that kind of stuff.
Yeah, completely resonate with that.
And it reminds me of something that one of my bosses has told me in the past.
I think this goes both ways in terms of if you're a manager giving feedback to your team or if you're a team member giving feedback to your manager.
A lot of companies do annual performance reviews and that's when you kind of go through your roles and responsibilities as well as evaluating like the feedback of your work in the past year, right?
And what my manager told me was that anything you ever discuss in your annual performance reviews, it should never be a surprise.
These are things that you have brought up to each other during your weekly TVs, concerns that you might have had one way or another and there should always kind of be like that open line of communication even throughout the year, which also then means that you should be thinking about these things throughout the year too.
So I think not waiting for that formal once in a year time to be like, yeah, I actually don't like this project.
You're like, actually, I've been hating my job for the past year.
Like, yeah, you're like, this is like my grade as a compliment by fucking hate.
Wait, oh my god, you call your one-on-ones T-Bs?
Yeah, touch base. Whoa.
Mine's just one colon one.
Oh. But really at the end of the day, I think it goes to show, you are totally valid in feeling the things that you feel about your work and it doesn't always have to be like a temper tantrum during a T-BF.
I don't like this work. It can be something very normal and casual like, yeah, I'll do it, but I think I generally prefer projects like this.
So you can totally keep it professional while still not being silenced about your thoughts.
For sure. And even better is when your manager is like, oh, what kind of projects do you like?
And you're like, oh, yes, I didn't even have to bring it up myself.
You're like, any project that's not like this.
I feel like maybe one of the best opportunities to bring it up is when you're near the conclusion or have finished a project because then you can be like, oh, let's debrief about this project.
Yeah. I think we accomplished all this blah, blah, blah and then at the end you could be like, honestly, it was a good project, but it's not like my favorite type.
So hopefully in the future, we can look for projects like this.
Or you could be like, oh my god, I loved this project.
I would love to have more projects like this.
Dude, yeah, that's such a good point.
Because in the post-mortem, you're coming into it already having done the task that was asked of you.
So you have a little bit more leverage because you could be like, yeah, well, I did finish this project even though I now realize it wasn't my favorite.
Dude, can we talk about the word post-mortem?
Like, why do we use that as like the debrief word for projects?
It's so like morbid. I totally is.
I always think of like a corpse every time I hear about it.
Wait, same. I literally am thinking of like the basement where all the dead bodies are.
Oh god. I'm like, why do we need to call this a post-mortem?
True, actually. Do we need a funeral for the project too?
Honestly, corpse laying, there's a lot of weird shit out there.
There really is. I mean, just in this one episode alone, we've talked about like at least four or five like corpse-peak words.
True. You know which one I really like?
Which one? Reinvent the wheel.
Oh my god. I'm like, that's a banger.
You're right. No one needs to reinvent that.
We use that one so much, especially because I'm like graphic design, right?
So we're like, oh, we don't need to reinvent the wheel.
Like, we don't need to create a brand new design for like every single thing.
And I'm like, yeah, you're right.
But also there's some other funny ones like no one's saving lives here.
That's like the privilege of working for corporate America and not in healthcare or something.
Yeah, very true. But back on our topic, I do have this thought about drop limbo.
It's not always a bad thing, I think.
I think sometimes it is really a good thing, because as we mentioned, sometimes, you know, it's a signifier like, oh, I need to reevaluate where I am right now and like how I'm feeling about things.
I actually strongly believe that it's really nice to like start a new job and have like a clean slate every, I don't know, X amount of years.
I mean, I know some people take it to the extreme and they like to switch jobs every one to two years.
But I just feel like the concept of starting fresh at a new company is like very liberating and very nice.
Yeah, I think that's a good point.
When you stay out of company for a long time, I feel like there's just so many trailing responsibilities, even if you move departments or move roles.
It's nobody's fault that you're still probably like the historian for that old thing.
And you're the only one who knows this thing or another.
So I can totally imagine how having a clean slate could be refreshing.
And plus, it's just accelerated growth, right?
Ideally in a company, even if you stay there for a long time, you would still be growing at a pretty good pace.
But when you are put onto a new team, new company, sometimes even new industry, there's just such a bigger pool of things to learn and absorb.
So you're like a dry sponge and tossed into the ocean.
Yeah. And I feel like it's fun, you know, to be the newbie once in a while.
And I was kind of thinking about this.
And it's almost like you're creating your own life stages.
So, you know, when we're younger, things are set.
We go to elementary school for, you know, five or six years, like high school is like four years, college is like, you know, four to five, whatever years.
But jobs, we are definitely more in control of this because there's no set schedule.
It's not like, oh, I need to be at this job for like five years to like graduate or something, you know, it's like, hey, I think I've had as much fun as I could at this job.
And now I'm ready to try something new, you know, go to a different industry or like try a different role or just like go to a different company that I like.
And I feel like that kind of lets you create your own life stages in a sense.
It's like, oh, those years were my whatever era.
And these years are my this new company era.
New era, I'm law. Yeah. Yeah.
That is a really good point, though.
Because there's no existing structure or even though people might preach about like, oh, you should leave your company every X number of years, like at the end of the day, it's your choice.
And I feel like that's also what makes it so hard to leave sometimes.
Even if you know, you've been in job limbo for a while or feeling a little bit stagnant at your company, it could be a scary leap to try to a job hunt or look elsewhere because it's breaking your status quo, right?
Strew knowingly making a big change in your routine and what you know.
Yeah. And I think it also really depends on your personality, too.
I think I'm the type of person who would really enjoy trying something new, you know, experiencing new things and learning new things.
But you know, sometimes people are just like, I don't care that much to have that kind of excitement in like this portion of my life.
Like I'm perfectly happy with staying at this company for, you know, 10 plus years.
And there's totally nothing wrong with that.
Right. But I think for me personally, it's definitely like an exciting idea.
Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, this is something that is so personal to you where you feel like you're at your relationship with people at your company, etc.
on how you want to move forward from the job limbo.
I feel like in my career, I have felt this kind of on and off.
Sometimes the solution is something so simple.
There was this one time I was feeling job limbo and I just felt so stuck and a little bit like understimulated with what I was doing.
And then I binged succession and I like felt this insane motivation.
Like the surge of work is life.
Like I'm going to devote my all to this company.
I see. And that honestly was like what fueled me for a specific duration of time.
Oh, that's insane. So sometimes you just have to watch a show that puts you in the mood to work, you know.
Yes. Okay. I know I sound crazy by sword.
It actually works. No, I think I think I can feel that because depending on like what show I'm watching, sometimes I literally like become the main character.
So if the show is like about work, I could, you know, I could get into that.
It's like four play. Get you in the right way.
I think for me, one of the simpler ones was taking on vacation.
I think it was a year or two ago.
Well, one, it was like very chill during December when other people were taking vacations.
And we came back for the new year.
And I was literally like so invigorated.
I was like, I'm so ready to work.
I was on top of everything.
Like above and beyond low key.
I was ahead of everything.
For like, for like a week.
And then I took like a real vacation because I didn't take a vacation in December.
I took a real vacation in like February or something.
And then when I came back, I was still just like so invigorated.
And I was like, wow, I need to like get back on that feeling.
I need a vacation, I guess.
Dude, so true. Sometimes it really is all this simple stuff.
Like there was definitely one time where I felt so unmotivated.
And it was just turning into general like negative feelings about work.
And then I made a really close friend at the company.
And then I like loved work again.
And I guess the way it is is maybe you feel these very specific feelings about work, right?
Like, oh, I'm burnt out and I need a day off or I feel lonely at work.
But if you're really busy in your day to day, it can just come to you in the form of like one big negative cloud of emotion.
Like you're just generally like, oh, I dislike work or I don't want to go into work or something.
Yeah. So then I feel like sometimes it's your responsibility to be your own like doctor, like emotions doctor.
Be like, why am I feeling like this?
That's true. Actually, I did receive advice to like figure out first.
Are you experiencing burnout?
Like, do you need to take a moment, you know, take a couple days off and feel better?
And then from there, you know, you just keep figuring it out.
If it wasn't burnout, then it could it be this.
If it was burnout, great.
Like you solved your problem.
You can like, you know what the next steps probably should be, right?
Right. And I was like, yeah, I guess I never really thought about actually figuring out if it's burnout or not.
I just like slap on a phrase and assume it's true.
But like, you know, maybe it was actually something else.
Maybe I'm burnt out in a different aspect of life.
And then that's affecting, you know, other parts of my life.
Okay. This is when something like journaling comes in so handy because for me, if I don't sit down and talk to someone or write about what I'm feeling, it's just like a general negative.
I'm like, boo. That's just what my thoughts sound like until I like sit down and kind of like weed through them a little bit.
Yeah. So I think you're right.
It's about identifying the root cause and trying to attack it from there so that you have a more specific game plan.
Yeah. Otherwise, you're just like, I feel like shit.
Like, why do I feel like shit?
I don't know. I just do. It's actually been very motivational in a sense to kind of sit down and talk through job limbo with you because I think with the term, this is something that maybe a lot of people have felt before.
But I had never felt like there was a true solution or a plan out from feeling job limbo.
Now that we've sat down and talk through it, I feel like there is a pretty big array of things that you could do.
Some of them being as silly as binge watching succession and others being a little bit more thoughtful and intuitive, like sitting down and having that honest, like mirror conversation.
Oh my God. Thank you, Crystal, for kind of decoding the phrase job limbo with me today.
And for any of our listeners out there, if you have felt job limbo before or you have any personal tips and tricks to kind of weed through the feeling of job limbo, definitely feel free to hit us up.
We have Instagram at EatYourCrustPod and we also have email at EatYourCrustPod at gmail.com.
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We upload new episodes every Wednesday morning.
Thanks for listening and don't forget to eat your cust.
