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I would often be sitting in what we call these editorial meetings where we're talking about what's going on in the news that day.
And I found myself struggling to share my ideas, speak up, and even be able to articulate my thoughts.
And I knew it was beyond just being more introverted because we all know the difference of introverted and extroverts, and of course that's a personality style.
But, you know, I noticed that when I was around my friends and family, I had no problems communicating.
But for some reason, because I was now in the workplace, I had all these thoughts in my brain, saying, are you sure, Jessica?
Do you really want to say that?
Is your idea good? And after a lot of introspection and a lot of talking with folks, I realized a lot of it actually had to do with the way I was raised, the beliefs and the principles and the values I was taught.
Which, of course, these are amazing values, and we can talk about them.
But I also discovered it didn't necessarily set me up for the workplace success, which is the valuing of being able to communicate, present your ideas, and advocate for yourself.
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Jessica, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks so much for having me.
It is our pleasure.
So how did you get it started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yes. So I'm a former Emmy Award -winning TV journalist.
I was a journalist for about 10 years all across here in the U .S.
So at the ABC, NBC stations, I was working in New York for a few years.
I was in the industry for about 10 years before transitioning out and starting my own communications training company.
So now we focus a lot on teaching things like cross -cultural communications, developing executive presence, advocating for yourself, and just your basic presentation skills.
So anything under the world of communications, we do now.
Incredible. And one thing I'm curious about, what was it in your calling or your passion that led you to do this work?
To transition out of use and start my own company.
Mm -hmm. Yeah. So the reason why I decided to leave and start Soulcast Media was because communications was not something I was good at personally.
When I first started working as a journalist, I struggled terribly.
If you can imagine starting off on TV, you are surrounded by a ton of very charismatic, extroverted, loud -spoken people.
And we would often be sitting in what we call these editorial meetings, what we're talking about, what's going on in the news that day.
And I found myself struggling to share my ideas, speak up, and even be able to articulate my thoughts.
And I knew it was beyond just being more introverted because we all know the difference of introverted, extroverts.
And of course that's a personality style.
But I noticed that when I was around my friends and family, I had no problems communicating.
But for some reason, because I was now in the workplace, I had all these thoughts in my brain saying, are you sure, Jessica?
Do you really want to say that?
Is your idea good? And after a lot of introspection and a lot of talking with folks, I realized a lot of it actually had to do with the way I was raised, the beliefs and the principles and the values I was taught, which of course these are amazing values and we can talk about them.
But I also discovered it didn't necessarily set me up for the workplace success, which is the valuing of being able to communicate, present your ideas and advocate for yourself.
Incredible. Yeah. And I think a lot of people can relate to that.
And I wanted to start off there because, first of all, I'm a child of immigrants as well, so I can empathize to a certain extent.
But also I think it gives us an additional layer of introspective analysis where we can say, all right, what else could be leading to this performance gap in whatever the circumstance is?
And so I think this is incredibly helpful from that perspective.
And this offers us a really smooth segue into your book that just came out.
Congratulations, by the way.
Thank you. I'm very excited.
It's now out. Yes. So tell us a bit about that.
Yeah. So the reason why I wrote this book was because I wanted to help those who don't consider themselves that assertive type, that outspoken type.
You know, and there's folks like that we see in the workplace where chiming in during meetings, public speaking, right, sharing their ideas.
That is no problem for them, right?
But I know there's a group of us who might struggle with that.
And that was me. And so I remember when I was trying to level up my own communication skills, I would always read these communications books because there's tons out there.
But I always felt like a lot of it was about how can you change yourself to be more loud, more outspoken?
But I felt like a lot of the things that I wanted to keep within me, and a lot of these are the things that I was raised with.
So for example, things like being more humble, being more modest, right?
I remember being top of my parents who are also immigrants.
They immigrated here to the U .S.
with the mentality of, you just work hard, you're diligent, kind of keep your head down, don't seek the spotlight.
And I think there is value in traits like that, right?
But it's kind of like, how do you find that balance?
How do you still hold on to these very powerful traits, which I actually call quiet culture traits in the book, but still succeed and get noticed at work for the right reasons in a loud culture workplace?
Because in my book, I make the argument how in many westernized, corporate, global workplaces, there is that emphasis in rewarding and even expecting people to embody loud culture traits.
So loud culture traits are things like the ability to speak up, the ability to talk about yourself, not shying away from conflict and being able to talk about your wins, right?
So it's like, how do you find that balance?
Because for me, I honestly felt like a huge culture shock when I first started working.
So this book, Smart Not Loud, is really teaching folks how they can do that, get into the right mindset and take a more proactive approach to their career.
This is so necessary because I'm with you.
When you think about a lot of the books that are out there on communication, really what a lot of authors are inadvertently doing is that they are codifying their own personality.
So they're not saying, this is what works for me in my experience.
They're saying, this is the way to do it and you all need to be more like me.
And so it's not that we don't know what it is to do.
It's that it feels as though we are betraying ourselves and being incredibly inauthentic.
It doesn't feel good even when we do it effectively.
So it's really inspiring to see that there is a path forward to assertiveness and communication that is authentic to you, that can be successful or lead to success in our Westernized workplaces.
The thesis of the book is really how can you still hold on to these amazing quiet culture traits but still succeed in a loud culture world, which you have to in order to be able to unlock the best opportunities, get the promotions, get the new clients, right?
So it's, yeah, how do you find that balance?
Oh, this is great because now we can succeed on our own terms.
And I think about the struggle that so many people have with imposter syndrome, where there is a mismatch between our self -perception and our concerns about how other people might end up perceiving us.
And I feel like that would be just amplified exponentially when we are actually truly operating as an imposter, betraying who we truly are in order to get to where we want to be to.
Exactly. So yeah, the book, it really starts out with getting into the right mindset, because even though I teach communications and that's what I do, a lot of times I realize if we're not in the right headspace, you can learn all the theories, all the tactical tips, all the frameworks.
But if you don't have that inner self -confidence to know what you say matters, to know that your work matters, then all those tips are just going to feel very theoretical in many ways, right?
So I think getting into the right headspace of knowing that your work matters, your thoughts are absolutely valued, it's just you got to reframe it a little bit.
And that's kind of what I talk about.
It's like, how can you think about your work a little bit differently?
And ultimately, it does come down to always remembering who are you communicating with?
What do they care about?
And how can you tailor your message to them?
Because that is the mark of a great communicator.
It's always remembering those things.
This is incredibly helpful.
And I love the fact that we're starting off with mindset too, because a lot of times we are, in certain circumstances, giving recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen.
That's something I recognized with me too, because I was afraid of having tough conversations for a long time, and it wasn't until I changed the way that I thought about it that it allowed me to actually put the skills into action.
And I love the fact that we're starting there too.
And when you're thinking about essentially that internal negotiation that has to occur, what are some of the challenges that people can experience when they are doing this hard work to shift their mindset in this way?
I found that a lot of times it's easy.
And I think it's human nature for us to often think in black and white, right?
Either you are quiet or loud, loud or quiet.
You speak or you don't speak or you listen and don't speak, right?
It's always this like, or, you do or, right?
And I think the biggest mindset shift, and this is including for me too, is there's a lot of gray in between.
So in the reframes that I teach, it's not being quiet or loud, right?
That's not necessarily the focus here.
It's thinking about what are the key things to focus on so you can approach work more strategically.
So I kind of touched on and I teased this already a little bit.
But, you know, from a communication standpoint, for example, it's not thinking about, should I listen or should I speak?
It's more about when I speak, when I speak, right?
It's how do I tailor it to my audience?
So it's not like, yes or no, black and white.
It's when I do, how do I tailor it, right?
Or thinking about the work that you do.
Many of us are working at a company or maybe we are entrepreneurs and we got things that we got to do, right?
It's like projects people assigned to us or things that we have to get done.
But instead of just seeing the work as I got to just do the work, which for me was what I was taught growing up in a very traditional and conservative family.
It was like, wait, how can you actually take this work that you have to do and leverage it for more opportunities?
I think that's a very strategic way to think about it.
And when I say leverage for more opportunities, it's like you did the work, you did a great job because you're smart, you're brilliant.
But how can you now take that completed project and use it as a bridge to engage in conversations with another group, another department, so you can build visibility for yourself, right?
It's not just thinking in the singular way, in the siloed way, but it's expanding and maximizing opportunity.
And one other one I'll give an example is, how do you handle compliments and talking about your wins?
Because let's be real, when people hear somebody talk about, oh, look at how amazing I am.
Nobody likes that either, right?
But the truth is, you got to get good at talking about your wins and celebrating the amazing work that you do, because that's how people are going to notice it.
But how do you do it in a way that isn't obnoxious, right?
And it does come down to communications.
And it's being able to articulate, how did it benefit the team?
How did it benefit the organization?
And I have found most of the time, if you're excited about something, your colleagues, your team members, your manager, if you go in with an excited, and like, you know, proud tone of voice, and you're saying how it has helped others, they're going to be excited for you too.
So these little mindset shifts, you know, they can truly transform how we feel and how confident we are in presenting our ideas in the workplace.
There is so much to explore here, Jessica.
This is great. So this might be a wee bit beyond the scope of the book.
But when it comes to the way that you just shared, we should, we could take some compliments, share our wins in a way that focuses on the benefit of the team.
It sounds like not only would this be effective in terms of making us more comfortable with sharing our wins.
It also sounds like if we were to layer this and analyze this through the lens of gender dynamics in the workplace, you're sharing your wins in a way that makes it less likely for you to incur social penalties if you're a woman sharing your successes.
Absolutely. And we know that there is this bias of like, you know, women being judged way more harshly when they present themselves a certain way.
But I've always found that when we are more, let's say, intentional and strategic with how and that's the thing, how we present that information, where we are leading with the value first, it is way harder to criticize a person, right?
Because at the end of the day, you're putting others at the center of your message of your communications.
So, and I think this is funny because when I'm saying this, it's like, of course it makes sense, right?
But I think by default, human nature, right?
We're thinking from our perspective all the time, right?
How do we feel? What do we think, right?
And this is our thoughts, right?
But I think, and this is what I learned as a journalist on TV, you know, you have to always put yourself in the shoes of the other person because that is how your message resonates.
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Yes, spot on. And it's something that takes a lot of practice if you want to be able to do it fluidly in the moment.
And so as you're starting to do this, you might recognize it's a little bit effortful.
Just take the time to prepare beforehand.
But then as you start to get more comfortable doing it, it'll flow a little bit more naturally, too.
Exactly. I remember early on I had an editor and he would always challenge me in the sense where I would present an idea and he would always follow up with this question.
But why should people care?
And I remember that question so clearly because it almost was like a practice.
He constantly would ask me that follow up question.
But Jessica, why would people care?
Why should people care?
And even though many of us might not have a manager asking us that question constantly like I did, but I do think reminding ourselves of that in whatever industry you're in is a very helpful mindset to adopt.
Brilliant. I agree 100%.
And one of the things that you've mentioned is the concept of assertiveness.
And I think a lot of times we can talk about assertiveness without fully appreciating the complexity of it.
And so I want to give you an opportunity to just talk about what it really means to be assertive in the workplace.
And then we can talk about how we can actually be assertive while still being authentic in these conversations too.
So the word assertiveness is such an interesting word to me because I remember early on and including a lot of folks who want to work with us, they're like the feedback that I get from my manager is that I got to be more assertive in meetings.
I hear that all the time, where this is during performance reviews where somebody will say their manager told them that they got to speak up, right?
And sometimes I feel like just that word in it of itself can cause a sense of defensiveness, right?
Because maybe that's just not our style.
So the way I like to think about it and the way I approach it, instead of thinking about being more assertive, how can you better advocate for yourself?
And I love that because when you think about it as how can you better advocate for yourself?
Now we're talking about like things we can do.
And so in the book, I actually have a framework because sometimes even just saying the words, you got to advocate for yourself.
It's like, okay, but what do I actually do?
So there's four things that I always want folks to keep in mind.
It actually is the acronym called ACT, A -C -C -T.
You got to act at work.
You got to embody act in the workplace.
So I'll just run through this really quickly so you can get a sense of advocating for yourself.
So advocating for yourself means A, asking, asking for what you want.
You can't assume people know what you want, even though you're terribly interested in it and you know it's a great idea.
You got to ask for it.
The second one is a C, which is you got to circle back.
Oftentimes the first time we present an idea, we ask for something, it's what I call the seeding of that idea.
People might not be ready to give you an answer.
People might need to think about it.
You got to circle back because that's how you can also show and keep it top of mind.
The third one is also a C, A -C -C -T, and that means celebrate your wins.
It's being able to talk about the amazing work that you're doing.
So you got to celebrate it because you cannot assume that people know about your brilliant work.
And then finally, the T is turn down request.
Basically knowing and learning how to say no, turning down requests, because at the end of the day, our time is precious.
We only have X amount of hours every day.
So when people are thinking about, oh, I got to be more assertive at work, why don't we think about how can I better advocate for myself in the workplace and how can I embody asking, circling back, celebrating and getting good at turning down requests?
Oh man, see Jessica, now I'm annoyed.
I am annoyed that I did not think of this.
This is so good. You've made it so clear, because I think about how many times people fail at each of these levels.
So we get all up in our head.
We assume that people know what we want, so we don't ask.
And then we get annoyed because they weren't reading our mind.
And then we say, okay, I'm going to muster up the strength to finally ask.
And then we ask and then we never follow back.
Right? And then we never talk about how the person's assistance has helped us to celebrate to win.
So we don't celebrate those wins and share how, hey, you helped me, you should keep on doing that because it helped us collectively.
And then turning down requests, setting boundaries is one of the hardest parts of self advocacy and assertiveness.
And you just put it together in this incredible acronym.
This is so helpful.
And like you said, it's instructive because it can be really theoretical when we talk just in general with these nebulous concepts.
Okay, be more assertive.
Okay. Well, what does that really mean?
Well, it means speak up for yourself.
What, how do I do that?
Do I just use random words?
This actually makes it really concrete.
This kudos to you. You should write a book.
That's a great idea.
So yeah, I hope I'm putting it into this acronym, people will now be able to know, okay, this is what I got to do.
Or this is what I have to keep in mind.
And we can dive into what each of these mean, but and what to do.
But at least from a high level, just knowing this can make a world of a difference.
I agree. And I think one of the challenges that people have when it comes to circling back, sometimes they might feel as though they're nagging, that might be a fear that holds them back, or they might feel like they're being too pushy, what advice do you have for somebody who might be, might hold themselves
back because of those fears?
Yeah, and let's be real.
Sometimes it's awkward, right?
It's like, oh my gosh, do I should I follow up?
They should already know like I already talked about it once, right.
But I have found the best opportunities are often because we follow up and we circle back with people.
But the key is it's not just about saying, hey, circling back here, right?
Because it's kind of like no one just likes that.
So in the book, I talk about if you really want to be strategic with how you circle back, what you want to do is loop in or share a new piece of information to make that follow up feel timely and fresh.
And it also drives the conversation forward.
So for example, new piece of information can be something you read a conversation you had a new piece of data or research that you stumbled upon that you can offer as a way to be like, hey, since our last conversation about this idea, I had I saw this article that talked about A, B and C.
Now, suddenly, that follow up doesn't feel pushy or even annoying, right?
It's more like, oh, that is interesting.
Okay. And now you're back top of mind with that other person.
That's so helpful. Yeah, because it it seems more organic in that way.
And it I think, and you tell me what you think about this, too.
I'm assuming if you're on the receiving end of a fresh follow up like this, you're less likely to be defensive in that conversation, too.
Exactly. Because when somebody was like, if somebody just says, Hey, circling back, do you have an answer?
Or can I get your thoughts on this?
It's like, obviously, I haven't gotten to it because I just haven't had the bandwidth, or I just don't have the time.
But when you're offering something new, suddenly, it's more interesting.
And now the person is more intrigued by it, right?
And so I think when we also talk about perception in the workplace, right, it's also constantly keeping in mind, like what new value are you offering?
And I feel like this is a great opportunity to show.
That you care about this, you're persistent about it.
And you're still thinking about it.
And you're letting them know by giving them all this new data or research or whatever information that you've collected.
I like it. Now that makes a lot of sense.
And I'm and now I've been married for 14 years.
And now I'm thinking to myself, man, this is great in relationships.
No, totally. Like, if you think about, you know, I don't know, when when I'm chatting with my husband about, I don't know, where do you want to want to eat for dinner?
Or where do you want to eat Saturday night?
Right? For example, and you're suggesting a restaurant, they're like, yeah, they're lukewarm about it.
And then maybe it's Thursday night.
And you're like, By the way, that restaurant I suggested, it just got an award.
And now suddenly it's like new fresh information, right?
So it's just kind of like how can you keep it top of mind and make it more interesting?
Absolutely. Oh, that's great.
That is really great.
And now let's talk about number four, because I think this is where people really struggle.
And just setting down, like setting boundaries, barriers, turning down requests.
Sometimes it's a we're afraid of offending the other side, hurting people's feelings.
We feel like we should do this as a team player.
Let's talk about this from the inside out.
How do you overcome those concerns first?
And then how do you actually set those boundaries?
This one was a really hard one for me personally to do because I think and I think some of you might relate to this.
But as a people pleaser, as somebody who wants to be perceived as a team player, can you even say no, right?
Is it more you just got to say yes to a lot of things?
So you are perceived as like, you know, you're a collaborator, right?
It's like, do you even have the option to say no.
So the way I like to think about it is in two ways.
So the first is, how do you say no?
And the second one is maybe you don't say no.
But how do you follow up in a conversation about it?
So let me talk about the strategy.
So if you do want to say no, because somebody just keeps throwing you projects that don't necessarily accelerate your career or help you, and you know, your time is very limited.
You're busy with other things.
You want to think about three things.
It's called TEF. Tef.
The first is your tone.
When you are essentially turning down a request or saying no, you got to be mindful of your tone of voice and establishing that this is actually what you mean, like in a neutral matter of fact way.
The E is just quickly explaining why you're not the best person for this.
Give one high level reason.
And then F is follow up with options.
So essentially, here's an example.
And this is how I would say it, you know, somebody is like, hey, can you help me with this like small Excel project?
And you're like, oh my God, I have a huge deadline that I got to get to.
And there's no way I can get to it, right?
So in saying no, you want to say, hey, you know, I can't get to this right now, because I do have a large project.
And my deadline is this Friday.
So that's your explanation.
High level, right? But I do want to help you.
So maybe circle back with me Monday, and I can see if I can help you with this Excel project then.
Now, the follow up is the most important in saying no, because you're still showing the other person that you want to help them and that you care.
And that's part of building credibility, showing the right person that you're a team player.
It's just that you're not the right person for this right now, because of other reasons.
So that's how you can, I think judiciously, graciously turn down something that you just can't get to for whatever reason, or it can just be like, I'm not the right person for this, maybe talk to Jennifer, she might be a great resource for you, right?
So again, giving them options.
So you're not leaving them hanging.
Now, the reality is sometimes in the workplace, we cannot say no, because there's a fire we got to put out.
It's truly a project our manager told us to do.
So we just got to do it.
And you have to make that calculation of whether you can say no, or you can't say no.
So if you cannot say no, and you just got to do it, then I say do it and do it well.
Do a great job with that assignment.
But now that you're done, and the fire has been put out, or that project is completed, try to schedule a one on one meeting with that person to let them know like, Hey, I'm happy to have helped you with this project.
And hopefully it helped you do that.
I do want to do A, B, and C, but I do want to try to focus my time a little bit more on these kinds of projects.
And just having that conversation, it is a great way to let them know that you're still a team player, you helped them, but your priorities, you want to focus on something else.
But you're not doing it in the time of need, you're doing it once you've already helped them.
What I love about this besides everything is the fact that you have really painted a picture of how we can say no to the specific request while still saying yes to the person.
And I think that's really powerful because just the approach helps us to overcome that fear because we're saying I'm afraid of how they'll respond.
I don't want to hurt their feelings.
I don't want them to think I'm not a team player.
But now you're saying yes, I am a team player and sometimes I cannot assist you and I will still try to feed into the relationship and find other ways to assist you.
And then the last part too, I think this is brilliant because you're right.
There are going to be sometimes where you simply cannot say no.
And when we have these conversations about difficult conversations in the workplace, one thing that's overlooked is our true source of leverage, which is the value that we bring.
And so we often overlook the fact that we need to do the job and we need to be exceptional because if you're not, then why would people want to be flexible with you in the future?
So you're saying, hey, yes, I did this.
It was tough going forward.
Let's discuss what we can do to create a future that is a little bit better for both of us going forward.
So this is I think this is one of the most holistic approaches to setting boundaries while still reaffirming the relationship that I've heard on the podcast.
So kudos. This is really, really helpful.
And I think you put it so eloquently.
It's like you're saying no to the project because it's not good for the kind of work that you want to focus on.
But you are still saying yes to the person and trying to help them in other ways.
And that's the key.
Yes, absolutely. Jessica, this has been exceptional.
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
And before you go, please remind the listeners about the new book and how they can work with you and your team.
Yes. So my new book is called Smart Not Loud how to get noticed at work for all the right reasons.
And I hope you all will check it out.
At the end of the day, it is a tactical communications book.
It's teaching folks how they can better advocate for themselves in the workplace, put themselves out there, all of it anchored in communications.
And if we're not connected, do connect with me on LinkedIn.
That's where I am most active.
And I'm constantly posting communication tips there.
So yes, just type in my name, Jessica Chen, and you can find me and let me know that you met me.
on this podcast. Amazing.
Jessica, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you. Hey, everyone, it's Kwame Christian, host of Negotiate Anything, asking you to please do not skip forward because this is not a commercial.
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