Hi, my name is James L. Brooks.
And I feel quizzical about being Conan O'Brien's friend.
You and your $9 words.
Fall is here, hear the yell.
Back to school, ring the bell.
Brand new shoes, walking blues.
Climb the fence, books and pens.
I can tell that we are going to be friends.
Hey there and welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend.
I came in a little hot.
Yeah, right out of the gate.
I know.
I was like an auctioneer.
Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend.
Oh, I've been watching a lot of auction videos online.
Is that a thing?
Sotheby's has an account and you can watch them.
And they're all these really like professional people, and a lot of them are on the phone and they just raise a finger and he's like OK, and we have three million there to do.
I have three, three, one, three, one.
And then they just and I want to be one of those people who was on the phone raising my hand.
I'm here's my terror.
As you know, I have a lot of ticks and bodily movements.
And I think you meant like the insect.
As you know, I'm covered in ticks.
What if I just took off my shirt and it was solid tic?
Just a solid black t-shirt of undulating tics all going... Sucking away.
And I'm like, yeah, I've got some tics.
No, I've thought about that.
I've never gone to a real auction.
And the idea that I'd be in an auction where...
It's like 9.1 million going once, going twice.
I know that it would, you know what I mean?
They'd be like, and Conor O'Brien over there with 9.2.
It's on you now, buddy.
I grew up, my neighbor was an auctioneer, but for like cattle and stuff like that.
And he had this really crazy way of doing it, where he'd be like And he would walk up and down the street.
Was he tiny?
He was tiny.
Hey, he sounds tiny.
Oh, I'm carried away by a bird.
I was just a kid and he'd offer me Pabst blue ribbons and things like that.
That's a different thing.
He always wanted to play bocce.
In Whittier?
This is in Whittier.
Wow.
Is there a lot of cattle?
No, there's none.
Where is it going?
He's from Missouri.
So that's what you're watching is auctioneer videos.
I didn't know that was a thing.
I am addicted to, I mean, I watch a lot of guitar lick, little Instagram videos and stuff.
But one thing I've noticed that I'm totally transfixed by is little carpentry hacks.
Hmm.
I can't make anything out of wood, but they'll show you how they join two pieces of wood by making these little cuts.
Yeah.
Like, oh my God, I just orgasmed watching that.
It's fantastic.
And then I watch the videos where they explain how an orgasm works.
And I could watch those forever.
And those are hacks as well.
Those are hacks as well.
And you cut them here and you cut there.
And then you put a little glue and... That's my auctioneer voice.
I'm also imagining, this is my YouTube video, is I watch Conan having an orgasm covered in ticks.
Yeah, I'm covered in ticks.
I'm watching...
Orgasming while watching a carpentry hack.
One view.
And the ticks are all watching too.
One view and it's me.
One view.
Yeah, that was, well, I don't know how that all came together, but it did.
What do you watch?
What's your guilty pleasure?
Gosh, I'll watch a lot of like 10 things you didn't know about, Godfather 3 or something, or like restoration of old toys, where they sandblast it and like repaint it, and things like that.
It's kind of like an ASMR.
I'd like to come back as someone who knows how to make things.
Yeah.
You know, it's so endlessly fascinating.
And I don't know what it is, but it's so satisfying to see people.
Yeah.
You know, especially if they do something like liquefy aluminum and pour it into a mold and then make something where they polish it.
I will cancel everything.
No, no, no.
They found your replacement liver.
They can surgically put it in right now before it dies.
I need to finish watching this.
I'll take my chances on another emergency liver.
That you might like?
What?
Marble Olympics?
I don't know what that is.
It's like someone makes these huge race tracks and they race marbles against marbles and they all have like names and there's all kinds of different races and marbles in the bleachers watching.
It's amazing.
This is sports for nerds, I know, but isn't it possible that we've reached?
Oh, it's okay, This is the extinction level we've reached.
Is that?
You know?
We gamed over time.
We figured out how to gain humans.
If you do this and you do that, a human will want to buy that product.
So it's all been figured out by algorithms and you know.
And now we're at a point where we know what we have to figure out.
They figured out what humans love to watch.
And we're all watching it.
And I was in an airport like three days ago.
Everyone I passed was on their phone, all watching the thing that's been wired directly to their brain to please them.
And we might stop feeding ourselves.
I know.
It's bleak.
It's really bad.
It's bleak.
Although I heard.
I don't know if this is true, but a lot of kids are into dumb phones, which are basically like very basic.
I got one for the Oscars last year.
I turned my phone, my app off completely.
Does that work?
I'm interested in that.
I love it.
I love it.
It's a thing called a brick and it's a solid like, it's a physical object that you have to have with you so you can leave it at home.
And if you brick your phone, you can set what apps you can use.
And so I can go out and just have nothing but maps and Spotify or something like that, you know.
I don't understand.
Is this an ad for this device?
Are you secretly getting money?
I'm not getting any money.
Is your phone like that now?
No, not like that now because I need it.
And you just touch it to the brick and it bricks your phone.
And you just tap it on there and you preset what apps it will let you use.
And if you leave that thing at home, you can't.
I've talked to you about this, Adam.
Sometimes I'll text Adam going.
If there's an emergency at work, text Amanda because my phone's bricked.
And I don't want to be on social media or anything like that.
I need to do that.
It's great.
Yeah.
It's just I got a real dumb phone when things were really heating up with the Oscars.
And it's people think they're getting a call from a drug dealer.
Yeah.
You know, it's just hilarious.
So they're disappointed when it's you.
But then I try to make up for it by actually selling them drugs, drugs.
I have no way of knowing how to get.
I'm like I've got some really good heroin that can be, you know and then I have to go out and find it.
And how much you don't know how much you're going to charge for that much.
No.
Imagine him dealing drugs.
You would be a terrible drug dealer.
Why?
Because, A, you don't do drugs.
Right.
Okay.
All right.
So what?
That's like a big reason.
A lot of people don't use the product they sell.
You don't know how much a little baggie of Coke would normally cost.
Let's role play this, okay?
It's a dark alley.
There's one broken street light.
Sure.
Sona and I, we're looking for a fix.
Yeah, I need it.
It's 1944 in your scenario.
I'm looking for a fix.
Hey-o.
Yeah.
You need a fix?
Yeah, I'm your drug dealer.
What's going on?
You can't say.
You already can't say.
What if I'm a cop?
All right.
Hey, how about this?
You have to have an alias.
Yeah.
You got to be like a little more covert about it.
My name's Jasbo.
Oh, my God.
You're so bad.
What's wrong with Jasbo?
Relax.
I'm sorry.
I got this.
I got this.
I just don't want the cops to get us.
Okay.
Hey, Jasbo.
What did you hear about me?
We're looking for some stripes.
What did you hear about me?
I heard about you back in the wars.
Okay.
What do you want?
Some stripes.
Stripes?
Yeah.
I got stripes.
I got black bennies, jojos, flip flops.
Pink ladies.
Pink ladies.
All right.
Squantos.
Half prontos.
How much?
What do you got?
A dollar.
Done.
See, I told you.
Do you have anything stronger?
Do you have any blow?
You want to blow?
Yeah.
I'll blow you.
How much?
I'll pay you whatever you want.
Okay, that's what I'm talking about.
I've just got to blow you right now.
All I've got is $2,000.
I sold a bunch of stripes earlier today.
Here you go.
Now let's get to me blowing you.
I'm Jasbo, the blower.
I'm a top blower in this town.
Jasbo's the name.
Blowing's my game.
I'll give you whatever you want.
This is just a deposit.
You know how they say if you're a cop, you have to tell me?
Yeah.
Take off your shirt.
I got to know if you're covered in ticks.
I don't remember if this is even the same record.
I didn't either, but I think it is.
And she was like, it was a long time ago.
Is this the same one?
Okay.
Anyway.
I have no idea, was it?
It is, right?
Auction videos.
Yes.
Is it the same one?
I don't know.
Is that the one we started with?
It started with auction videos.
I don't know.
I took notes.
All I know is that I'm paying you top dollar to blow you in this scenario and my name's Jasbo.
I got drugs for a dollar and I'm being paid. to be filleted by a jazz bow covered in ticks.
I also love the first time you're like, hey, I'm your drug dealer.
I'm your drug dealer.
Drug dealer here.
Ding dong.
Jazz bow's the name.
Drug dealing's the game.
Hear ye, hear ye.
Any cops around?
Dinga, dinga, dinga.
Anyone watch illegal drugs?
Jazz bow's the name.
Drug dealing's the game.
And I'll blow you.
Well...
I have to say, this is going to be an excellent show.
All right, you knuckleheads, pipe down.
My guest today is an Academy Award-winning director and screenwriter behind such films and TV shows as Terms of Endearment, The Mary Tyler Moore Show and Broadcast News.
His latest movie, Ella McKay, is in theaters now.
I'm thrilled he's here today.
James L. Brooks, welcome.
Welcome.
You're not going to remember this, but I'm going to thank you up front because you did me a huge When you were selling those flowers.
I was selling flowers.
I was blind.
You bought one and then paid for my operation.
Oh, wait, that's a Charlie Chaplin movie.
Now, you did a great thing for me, and you won't remember this, in addition to other many great things that you've done for me.
When I was a writer on The Simpsons and out of nowhere they announced this complete unknown was going to be taking over for David Letterman.
His name is Conan O'Brien.
No one knew how to react.
This is insane.
And somehow they were just looking for any quote and they got to you somehow.
And they said, well, Simpsons, James L. Brooks, what do you think of this?
And you said.
The moment I met Conan O'Brien, I knew that he would one day replace David Letterman as the host of Late Night.
Now, that's a really funny joke, but thank God the media had no sense of irony.
So I read a lot of things that I hope are jokes.
I read so many articles that were like of course.
James L Brooks came to his defense and said from the moment I met him, he was the only one.
And I think I survived off that quote for a couple of months.
I think what I actually said was he can't.
We have him under contract.
Yeah.
You know, someone did, actually.
It wasn't you.
Actually, I remember somebody coming to me, because you were under contract.
I was under contract at The Simpsons when this insane thing happened and out of the blue, I mean, I got the word that yeah Kid, you're it.
When I was at a rewrite session in the basement of the record room at Warner Brothers, a phone call came through.
Someone said, it's for you, Conan.
I took the phone and it was my agent, Gavin Pallone.
And he said, you got 1230.
And I said in a deflated tone because I knew what I was in for.
I said, I knew it.
And because I was scared.
And then the drama unfolded, which was I was under contract at the Simpsons for another couple of years.
And I remembered someone at Fox said, now, hold on a second.
You know, he's got to buy his way out of his contract.
I was driving a Ford Taurus at the time, which I still own proudly.
Oh, man.
Yeah.
And they said, you got to buy your way out.
And it wasn't you.
It wasn't Richard Sakai.
It was some guy at Fox was like, hey, wait a minute.
But did they come to you ever and say, what do you think of this?
No, I remember hearing that somebody told me you know, because you know you were, you were quickly a star of the staff.
I mean, you I mean, that was that nobody was it was insane how quickly that happened.
And and and then somebody said he's wanted exactly this since he was 14.
But I remember I left SNL and I'm in New York and I get a call from Mike Reese and Al Jean and they say we hear you're available.
Would you want to join us at the Simpsons?
And this is 1991, I think.
They said, Jim Brooks is coming in to hear all the pitches for the new season.
And I started pitching you ideas and you were laughing.
You have that amazing, iconic laugh.
And I was overjoyed.
And then I had you said yes to two of them.
And then Al Jean said, tell about the monorail.
Oh, wow.
And I pitched it then.
Wow.
And I said, this is my first time in the room.
And that's one of the classic Simpson shows.
Oh, man.
And hearing that famous laugh.
A laugh that, unbeknownst to me, I had heard on television growing up.
That famous laugh of you that you can Do.
You hear it yourself when you watch Mary Tyler Moore's show or Taxi.
Do you hear it yourself?
I do.
Yeah, I do.
There's a sort of an echo quality that's attached to it recently, but...
No, yeah, I do.
I mean, and terrible.
You know I've had people turn around during watching a comedy movie and my laugh bothered them so much they turned around giving me dirty looks for laughing at a comedy.
Yeah, it is.
We remember De Niro, that famous scene in the movie theater.
Oh, Cape Fear?
Cape Fear, where he's being incredibly obnoxious and laughing.
I mean, you have had an insane career.
You've been so spectacularly successful.
And I thought I'd start at the beginning which is, you've done all these iconic shows, revolutionary shows movies, and you start out working on shows like My Three Sons or Andy Griffith's show.
And I was wondering- My Mother the Car.
My Mother the Car, a famous- My Mother the Car.
A famous Bond.
If you recall, it's about a man whose mother dies and comes back as a talking car.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It wasn't my idea.
I wish it was.
Was Jerry Van Dyke the star?
Who was the star?
I think it was Jerry Van Dyke, maybe, was the star of it.
And it was a famous bomb.
I don't know if they ever told you, but it's a famous bomb.
I never knew it was famous.
I never knew that.
When I was growing up.
I think of it as a sort of moderate bomb.
I'm here to tell you, sir.
It was a famous bomb.
It was a famous.
Yeah, there you go.
Iconic bomb.
Everything you do is iconic.
But this was, and I was looking at these early shows and thinking okay, you go on to do, of course, Mary Tyler Moore and Taxi and Rhoda.
You are, I think, the best of, the very best of 1970s and 80s television.
Simpsons.
And then you do Terms of Endearment, which to this day is a movie my wife and I watch hundreds of times and beg anyone to watch with us again because it's so amazing, and broadcast news.
And it's just, it's ridiculous.
Your resume is madness and feels like a fraud.
Like you've made this up.
This is an invention of AI.
What were you learning on the Andy Griffith show?
What were you learning on those early shows?
What did they teach you?
That I might survive is the big lesson.
I think I got out of it because I came out of here to.
I came out to California from a job I really liked as a news writer in New York for one of the networks.
Things had been.
You know I had been messing up pretty continually and then think I got this job without being a college graduate, that you're supposed to be a college graduate, which was an usher at CBS.
You're supposed to be a college graduate for that job.
Because it was a- Like an internship.
A step on the ladder.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And because my sister knew the person who assisted the person who hired the ushers, I got the job.
And it's so nuts when you look back, because nothing would have happened unless that happened.
Yeah.
Yeah. the way it worked out, because then, I mean, it's always nuts to think how luck plays a part.
And then the usher staff filled in for sort of minor jobs, when the person who had the better job the minor job though, in the scheme of things went on vacation.
And I filled in for somebody who was a copy boy desk assistant at CBS News.
And he didn't come back from vacation.
And it was just, that was the break.
Was he lost at sea?
It sounds so ominous.
Well, he died.
What did you do to him?
It's clear what you did.
That's where your deal with the devil starts.
This unprecedented career.
So you started that kind of writing.
And then at some point you have to say, all right, television writing is a possibility.
I never saw it.
I never saw it as a possibility.
I never saw it as a possibility.
Somebody I work with when I had a job at a radio station ended up in a independent documentary house here.
And he offered me a job and I took it, which was leaving the first secure thing I had in my life, which was a job at CBS in the news division.
And then I came out and I was laid off six months after I got here.
It's not like I always wanted to write.
I always wrote with no notion that I could do it as a profession.
Honestly, it never occurred to me.
I mean, my ambition was primarily to survive.
I mean, that was it.
And we were a grubby lot as documentary makers, and I went to a party on New Year's Eve and we were there being grubby in a and a tall, handsome man walks in in a tuxedo and it's Alan Byrne.
And he had five shows that he had created, comedy shows on the air at that time.
And he asked me, he said, what do you do?
And I said, well, I want to write.
And he got me a job.
That's what he knew.
He didn't read anything or anything else.
He was just that sweet a guy.
And so he got me an assignment, and then things started to work.
You know it's interesting that some of these shows, these early shows, like Andy Griffith's show, the best episodes are still magical to me.
And it's because it's character comedy.
And I'm thinking at some point you must have learned it's not rapid fire jokes.
One of the hallmarks of your career has been writing that way within characters.
Uh, I guess.
Wait a minute, I'm basing this off of... Hey, you live and learn, you know what I'm saying.
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
Somebody write down what that guy said.
Wait a minute, I just came to Yoda and said, Yoda, I heard there is no try, there's just do.
What mean you?
Who say?
Who you talk to?
No, no.
Whatever, I guess.
That's what it feels like right now.
Okay, forget that.
I'm going back to just jokes.
Know it's funny because huge turning point in your life mary tyler moore show, a show that you create, and you did the pitch with alan burns, with alan burns.
But did you, who'd you pitch it to?
And was mary tyler moore in the room when you pitched it?
I had, i had uh done a show um room 222 yeah, which was um love that show.
Uh, And Alan and I met on that show.
And Grant Tinker, who was the vice president at Fox and was married to Mary Tyler Moore and was every time you mention his name, was the best boss that ever happened.
He saved our rear ends.
I mean, he was amazing in his support of writers.
Just crazy great.
I mean, we all loved him.
He was a magic man.
We pitched to CBS for the Maritime Ocean.
We pitched a bad idea.
I mean, our first idea was a bad idea.
My father the car.
So you pitch a bad idea.
And it was an amazing pitch session because there were like a semicircle like you do it for like a bad science fiction movie a semicircle of chairs with all these people in it.
And the head of programming.
This is a true story the head of programming in the middle of it And we.
Our first idea was that she'd be divorced and coming off a divorce.
And the guy actually said, there are three things people don't like.
Stories about divorce.
I swear to God he said this because we had a Rhoda character in it, you know, Rhoda Morgenstern.
Stories about divorce, Jews, and mustaches.
I'm not making, you couldn't make this up, right?
He's looking at me, a Jew with a mustache.
Yeah.
As he says it.
That really happened in time and space.
That actually happened.
Yes.
The guy was looking at my face saying that.
So Grant went in and we never knew it.
He just said, wait for me.
He came out.
He looked a little angry.
And he had just used the weight that he had to save our asses.
Unbelievable.
So you do this show and it's interesting.
In retrospect, people say Mary Tyler Moore show was revolutionary.
She's single.
It's a show based about this woman.
She has a career.
She doesn't have no steering wheel.
She has no steering wheel.
She has a wisecracking... There's no wisecracking kid.
There's no, you know... She has a mustache.
She has a mustache.
She's secretly Jewish.
Morenstein.
But people talk about it now being revolutionary, and you never saw it that way while you were making it.
You were just making a show, correct?
And at a certain point we knew that we were making the right show at the right time, because it was just sort of what was happening to to women in general.
Then
So it was the timing, you know, the thing that you can't create yourself just was right.
And coincidentally, it was a time when, the only time in the history of television, when a new president of television came over and the first thing he did was cancel a bunch of top 20 shows because they were all those bucolic petticoat junction, you know, Beverly Hillbilly shows.
And he canceled them when they were enormously successful shows.
It's never happened before.
No, it wouldn't.
Imagine today.
I think at the time CBS had maybe nine of the top you know 20 shows, or they were just killing it with Westerns.
And the president of the company said I've always heard this rumor that it was wife who was embarrassed by this bucolic comedy and thought that it was lame.
I don't know if that's true, but he came in and he said let's get rid of all of these.
Which can you imagine?
Enormously successful, highest rated shows.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And got rid of all of them and put a new, complete new stamp on what CBS was all about.
But I've always been.
And a half year earlier.
Mm-hmm.
He had one of the first shows to come out of that was All in the Family as he built a new CBS.
And then at the last minute, we were in a death time period with the Mary Tyler Moore show.
And he changed us and put us behind All in the Family or else I don't think we would have happened.
Right.
I think we would have been lost.
I think you said no one.
And again, you'll tell me I never said that.
Anyone who sets out to make a revolutionary TV show isn't going to.
No.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think, with Room 222, because it was, I think, the second show to have a black lead, the first show to have two main black characters, you know.
So that was.
You know, that felt good.
You knew you were doing it.
You knew it was happening.
But this, you know, certainly didn't see it coming.
I remember room 222, seeing that and noticing the difference that these did seem.
As you know, usually when high school students were served up to us, it was, you know, guys in Letterman sweaters.
And it was, it felt very much like Ozzie Nelson, Ricky Nelson kind of stuff.
And this felt like people I knew.
I wasn't in high school.
I think it's 1969.
So I was about six years old when that show started.
But I remembered thinking, these feel like people I see in my life and they feel authentic.
I didn't even probably, I didn't know the word authentic, but it felt real to me.
The director-producer of the show, Gene Reynolds, who was...
You know, when we were working for him, and he kept on sending.
He kept on sending me back to the high school, kept on sending me back.
I finished research.
I'd go to him.
I said, yeah, I got it.
No, you don't go back.
And I sat in classes for a while and there was a teacher showed up, you know, and I and I was hanging at this high school at his insistence.
And, you know, do that now and you're in trouble, you know.
I'm working on a TV show.
I don't think you are, sir.
Come with us.
I thought it was raining.
That's why I'm wearing this coat.
Why do you have all that candy?
Now that's a different story.
I have low blood sugar.
I think a huge, you know, it's interesting too.
This was an era when I feel like there was real leadership in television real, you know, people like Grant Tinker who had taste and would go out on a limb and they weren't just trying to follow the latest trend.
When I was in college and working on the humor magazine, The Lampoon, I was there all the time.
I practically lived in that building because I was obsessed with comedy.
And one night there was a knock at the door and I opened the door and there, in a double-breasted suit, is Grant Tinker and he was standing with Brandon Tartikoff.
Wow.
And they were doing some event at Harvard and they saw this building and they knew oh, you know, some funny writers are coming out of that place.
And they just wanted to see it.
So they knocked on the door and I opened the door and they asked for a tour.
I was 19, I think.
And I just led them around the building and showed them everything and answered all their questions and everything, worked up the nerve to make a couple of quips along the way.
And then, as they walked out the door, you know I remembered Brandon Grant Tinker looked like someone out of Guys and Dolls.
He had like a pinstripe suit, you know?
But I led them around and then I, you know, took them to the front door and I remember Brandon Tartikoff just saying like well Conan, you're a funny guy.
I think I lived off that for a decade.
Did you ever tell them that after you had arrived in television?
I don't think so.
I mean, I did a pilot with Robert Smiley when I did a pilot with Brennan Tartikoff.
I don't know that I took the chance in our one or two meetings with him.
He was a terrific guy.
Amazing.
And these were people with real talent and taste and sensibility.
And I think that's in short supply these days.
So many people are running scared in not just television, but film.
People are running for cover that it's, I don't know if we'll see their like again.
Data.
Data.
What's that?
It was data.
This is before data.
Yes, yes.
I mean, they had their thing, but it was very rudimentary.
No, now we have actual computers that tell us we don't like Jews, mustaches, or divorce.
Turns out they were right.
I don't know why we fought it so hard.
I'm very curious about Mary Tyler Moore because she played a big part in my life, because when I first got my late night show for reasons I still don't understand and I was under fire for this kid doesn't have it.
Who is he?
He seems awkward.
Yeah.
Mary Tyler Moore was my second guest.
She was the first guest on the second show and then came back routinely and was an incredible talk show guest.
And of course I couldn't believe that I was sitting here talking to someone who was coming through my television Dick Van Dyke Show on a black and white TV in my kitchen in Brookline Mass.
And I'm eating bologna strips my mother put in a bowl.
And I'm watching this person.
Yeah, I was being punished.
Yeah.
I was on war rations, but that was a big meal back then.
But I mean, it was a big, it was a, it was a big.
I had this feeling of she is making eye contact with me and using my first name and it still seems unreal to me.
What was working with her like on that show?
I'm trying to phrase this so that I can really there was an extraordinary thing she did the great star of the show and she used all the power she had not to have the power and to make it a company and to make everybody you know feel like that.
An ensemble, yeah.
Yeah, so it was never like, you know, we had to worry what would Mary think.
I mean, you know, we'd have a run through, we'd try and fix whatever, you know, needed fixing.
And she never came to the office.
And at seven years we got.
I remember the best thing I did in my life is they were saying let's go out while we're ahead.
Let's call it a go.
Let's call it a go at six.
And I said, seven.
So that was the, that was the, I just bought a boat.
That's the great motivator.
Buy a boat and you'll do three more seasons.
Also, I'd never bought, I never believed get out while you're ahead.
No, my, if I buy a boat, it's going to be called the SS ride it to the bottom.
But so you wanted seven and I know she did have a note, or I believe she had a note on the final episode.
Yes.
One of the few times that she... Never.
The first time.
The only time.
Seven years.
Never did it.
Never came to our office to say something.
It was nuts.
It was nuts.
The nation stopped for our final show.
Yes.
It was like crazy.
You can't... I...
You know, it was crazy, the extent of it.
Do you remember the share or the number that it got?
Because that's an era that has passed.
You know, the Super Bowl wouldn't get the share or the number.
I'm not a last... The number is 52%, I think.
I always heard it was 51.
It's 52.
You're forgetting Iowa.
Okay, okay.
Um...
Incredible.
But she had a note on the last episode, which was?
That everybody had said their farewell, and we hadn't done it for her.
Oh, wow.
And I can't imagine, I can't explain it, but then we did it and it's one of the best moments I've ever been part of.
Is it the shuffling out together?
No, oh, that was on the set.
That was great.
We were running it, and they get into a group hug at...
They're all saying goodbye and it's over.
They're in a group hug.
They're all hugging each other.
Six, I think, six people hugging each other.
And they're crying.
And they said there was something where who had Kleenex in the hug.
And in dress, we said, no, no, the Kleenex is on the table.
So the group hugged.
Hugging each other.
Has to shuffle over.
Move to the table.
Oh, it's such a... I mean, I remember... And it was the way to go out.
It was just... It was just the way to go out.
And there was a famous episode where the lights... Mary's going to have a party.
Her parties always go badly.
She says that Johnny Carson's coming to the party.
Of course, Johnny Carson's the biggest star in television.
We are excited that he's going to show up.
And all we knew was that he would do the show.
And then we made that show because we heard that he'd do it.
Yeah.
So...
So you made the show because Johnny Carson said he'd do it, which was an impossibility.
He didn't do things.
It's not like today where everybody's everywhere.
It just was.
You couldn't believe that the most famous man in America is going to, and who doesn't do anything other than the Tonight Show, is going to show up and the lights go out.
Mary's apartment loses its lights and then Johnny Carson enters in the dark and you hear him.
And it was, you never saw him.
And it was.
You got Johnny Carson and had the balls to say you're never going to.
And you heard him and you couldn't believe that this show would get Johnny Carson and then not show him and just could hear his voice.
Yeah.
And it was just magical.
I think about you have this run in television and then you say, okay, I'm going to do movies.
And that's the leap that I always think is fascinating when someone says, I think I could do this.
I could make a movie.
I would, of course, I've never had that impulse.
I've never thought I could direct, but clearly this is just something that was in you.
You knew this is something I could do.
I can't explain it.
I had no ambition to be a director.
I just simply didn't.
So your first feature film is Terms of Endearment.
Yeah.
Okay.
A movie you can go back to, and back to, and back to again, and it's become more relevant because of the way we experience news now.
It is prophetic.
You know talking about emotion and drama being inserted into the news and people being a newsman being relatable.
You're talking about...
I'm sorry about Broadcast News.
I'm sorry.
Thank you so much.
I was trying to think.
I was just trying to think how to save him.
I just want you to know there was nothing.
I didn't recoil.
I actually wanted to come to his aid.
Let me explain something to you.
That's the kind of guy I am.
Let me explain something to you.
Maybe you haven't watched it in a while.
I'm doubling down.
Terms of Endearment begins in a news... You've got to make this podcast less.
I just bought a boat, okay?
Okay.
Keep it going.
Okay.
I apologize.
And you will fix this.
I know you will.
No, you have to leave it.
No, but all.
And if you say it Listen, I'm going to make it very clear to you that I was right the first time.
And I find that if I never apologize, and I'm seeing this play out in public life, in politics.
Here we go.
There we go.
But yeah, the original Terms of Endearment was a version of broadcast news.
And it's a really weird turn when everyone decides to abandon the newsroom.
But did you feel comfortable the minute you were directing?
Did it feel to you like this was, oh, this is, I feel like a duck in water, you know?
I was working with, you know, with Jack Nicholson, the actor, the guy, the star.
He made it great because he'd come up to me.
You know, sort of like he said you want to know the worst direction.
You came today.
And then you say you want to know the best direction.
So he was tutoring you a little bit.
He was being great to me.
He was just sort of three-quarter kidding, but just in my corner.
And that made it work.
I would imagine you'd be intimidated a little by him.
He still is a massive star.
No, he was great.
Yeah.
Great actor.
I mean, you know, that was, there was a scene, I think it was in that movie, there was a scene.
I came to him and he said, this actually happened.
I said, too angry.
It's just too angry.
And then I said again, you know, it was just too angry.
And then he did the scene and sort of blew up that I kept on doing this.
He was just blowing up, not performance.
And I said, that's it.
And then we both, I mean, he broke up and I broke up.
But it was it.
It was just, it seemed too angry until suddenly it was like nobody had ever done it just like that.
I'd always heard, is it true that Burt Reynolds turned down that role and did Stroker Ace instead?
No, he did a picture.
He did a different picture.
He did a picture with like 12 women in it and him or something like that.
That's the movie we all want to make.
And he was the number one box office star in America.
But he did turn it down?
And he had said he'd do it.
And then he turned it down for this movie.
And, you know, and I had the number one star doing my movie.
And then I got a phone call from his press agent.
Bert's decided not to do the movie, but he wants you to know he loves you.
And he sent a little jacket, a little, that the jacket, I just looked at it and it was medium.
And I'm a large.
Yeah.
Oh, man.
Oh, Bert.
It was just the jacket he was wearing that day.
Yeah, it was just whatever he was... It had Bert written in it in ink.
It just said Gunsmoke on it.
Absolutely incredible.
I mean, I intend to embarrass you with this, but you've got three Oscars, 22 Emmys, a Golden Globe.
You need to immediately be in a Broadway show because we need to get you a Tony.
And I think you're set, right?
A Grammy?
A Grammy.
Damn it, you need a Grammy.
Well, Golden Globes could be the G in there.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, you got to get the E got.
There are very few that can claim that.
I'm sorry, I think these are good ideas I'm pitching you.
Oh, you used to like my ideas.
Check, please.
Sir, please.
We try again with a different pasta.
You took a hiatus from directing for how many years?
I don't know, man.
Hey, are you high?
I don't know, man.
I don't know, man.
Leave me alone.
You got nothing better to talk about?
This is the first movie.
Ella McKay, your new movie, is the first one you've directed in 15 years, I believe.
And did it feel, when you got on set, like you're just right back where you started?
There was, I was producing other films and I was, and I'm on set all the time when I do that.
And I was working.
I just, you know, I don't even, I have no explanation for it.
And then I went, I was going nuts because I think, you know, I'm not myself unless I'm writing.
And then and that's an element case, you know, happened that way.
Yeah.
And you have terrific cast.
Yeah.
I was very happy to see Julie Kavner in there.
Oh, man.
I mean she's.
I know she's been a long part of your history, but I got to know her at The Simpsons and she's just a force.
God, you look at the movie.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because you're going to feel great seeing her.
Oh, no, she starts the movie.
She's the narrator.
She's the narrator, and she starts by looking.
And I love the narrator saying, I'm the narrator, and this is what's happening.
I felt very taken care of by her, you know?
Oh, great.
Yeah, yeah, lovely.
Yeah, yeah.
And she's.
I mean.
That voice was first burned into my brain on Rhoda, I believe, is where I first heard it.
Yeah, when she was kid, that was her.
Yeah, that was yeah and um, and it's just, she just cuts through everything and i know oh, i know her.
Yeah, she's gonna hold my hand and and and take me through this journey.
I show me the person who doesn't love her.
I mean, it's just especially, you know, and that happens in the, in the movie and, and she's the one, she's literally the narrator taking you through it.
Did it feel to you when you were making it like?
This is the experience I've had before.
After taking a break for a while, did it feel like, yes, I'm putting on an old coat?
This fits, this process, you know?
You know, when you're going to direct, you leave the world, you know, you leave the world.
Even more intense than when you're writing, I think, when God knows you leave the world a bit.
And these days to have an idea and to say gee, that's sort of funny, and to be able to get a movie made out of it, you've got to appreciate the shit out of it, you know, because it's not those kind of days.
And- Specifically, I mean, how is it different?
Just that there's so much- I mean, what's the thing about data?
You know, this will work because you run the numbers and stuff like that.
And there are no numbers to run on, hey, I got an idea.
And, you know, so you're lucky.
You know, it's great.
You get to make it.
You probably won't remember this, but you came on my show early, early days, I think 1994, right?
I might have still been writing it, yeah.
I spent a long time on that script, yeah.
But you came on my talk show, The Late Night Show, and we got into this conversation about how well you write for women, which is in full force in Ella McKay.
And you talked then and I thought I'd revisit it now just briefly which is that you were raised by women.
And you think that had a profound effect on your ability to write for those characters.
Yeah, the conversations of women were, you know, my whole upbringing.
Yeah. there was hard stuff going on.
And I was a child and I always heard, my mother and her two sisters were enormously close.
And I just, you know, I had an older sister who helped raise me because you know circumstances were, you know, just tough for a while.
And I heard, and I did, I was, I grew up hearing them talk.
It's it's.
It's also interesting to me that in this movie, past trauma informs everything that's happening for the character of Ella.
It's like the things that she's gone through with her father and death of her mother.
It's all informed and her family and even her husband.
People are she's she's not catching a break from a lot of people in her life.
And it's interesting to me that it's not unlike your story, where you had some traumatic experiences when you were younger.
That's the same, but she's a remarkable kid.
Yeah.
She's a remarkable kid who, as a remarkable kid, has to handle things no kid should have to handle.
And the thing that held it up for a long time was finding out who could play the part.
Because, you know, the thing that was in my mind was I always loved those Katharine Hepburn, Audrey Hepburn movies, those 1950s movies.
I mean, I was nuts about them.
And this was really, you know, me trying to copy them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was fascinating.
Homage.
I think homage is the better word.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everything's an homage.
Yes.
No, it is a tribute.
Writer's Guild, it's an homage.
In tribute, too.
In tribute, too.
But it's interesting because my experience with you on The Simpsons was you would always remind us make sure you're writing for Lisa, make sure you're writing for Marge because, left to my own devices, I would only write about Mr Burns.
I mean, I only wanted... Because he had unlimited wealth and was in evil...
That's a fantasy for me that I can.
You can have a character who has a hyperbaric chamber, golden robots, you can release hounds.
Anything can happen.
And if I was just left alone in a room, every single episode I wrote would have been Mr Burns goes to college, Mr Burns gets his period, you know.
Which is one I wrote, projected, because they said science doesn't back this.
But anyway, that was your voice was often heard in the room saying we need to make sure that this family exists and that all of these characters are utilized and that they're real.
Even if amazing weird, strange things are happening in a cartoon, it has to have this inner integrity, which I still think is bullshit.
Yeah.
I just wanted to get you here to tell you that.
Yeah.
I mean, funny is always the object.
But yeah, I think that was always true about the show.
I think it is true about the show.
It's unbelievable that it's still going.
I mean to me it's been.
I left that show in 1993 and said well, you know I'm out of here and this thing's got another year to go.
It's going to fold without me.
Yeah.
There's no way this continues without me, which I say whenever I leave a room.
I say that at parties.
I say that when I leave a restaurant.
Yeah.
This Denny's will surely perish without my.
So I'm shocked when I see them still functioning.
But I yeah.
And then I've had the experience of going back 30 years later and and they're some of the same people are there.
It's absolutely incredible.
They're chained to the wall.
They're skeletons.
I mean, it's incredible.
But it's one of the great success stories in TV history.
Absolutely amazing.
It's amazing to me.
It's amazing to everybody on the show.
You know, it's just, it is, it is.
It's, yeah.
Yeah, I remember when, I remember that, and we went on when the Fox Network was on life support.
Yes.
And then we got the cover of a magazine, sort of like Antenna News or something like that.
It was, it was, it was, You never heard of the magazine, but we were on the cover.
And I put it on my office wall.
And then all of a sudden, that wall was covered with covers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was like crazy.
It was a phenomenon.
And it was the biggest thing.
Michael Jackson.
I mean, talk about Johnny Carson doing the... doing mary tyler moore as a guest star you think well you can't top that but michael jackson in i think 1988 or 89 appearing as a guest star and you had carson too right didn't yeah carson was there i was there the day carson came in to do his voice because he's uh i think he's helping out crusty at one point and it was just after johnny had retired and wasn't doing anything and then he said he'd do the simpsons and i i burned into my brain that day because he came in coolest looking guy ever he had a file of facts and two packs of cigarettes he sat down he did his voices he did his records and then we of course had a million things we wanted him to sign and so he sat there signing and started talking to us and we were asking questions I think he liked being around a room of writers and he missed it.
And he chatted with us.
And then I went out, I had to do something.
And when I came back, he was just walking to his white Corvette.
Every year.
I think he got a brand new white Corvette and he got in it and he had his cool sunglasses on.
And he said, I don't do a Johnny Carson, but excuse me, how do I?
And I say, you go down there and you take a right.
And he said, thank you.
And he took off.
He took off and he took a right-hand turn.
And just as he took the right-hand turn, I remembered it's a left.
And I'm dying and I'm watching, watching.
And what here he's going is to a cul-de-sac that takes you pretty much to like Olympic Boulevard, but there's you can't access it because it's a lot.
Oh, you suck.
And I waited, and then after about a minute and a half, the car came back the other way.
And so I know that Johnny Carson was thinking, fucking asshole.
Fucking creep.
You should have said, I said left, moron.
I said left, you white haired fuck.
Oh my God.
Man, opportunities missed.
I wish you had been there.
But yeah, absolutely amazing.
This has been a joy.
Thank you so much for taking the time.
Congrats on your new movie, Ella McKay.
And just getting to any chance I ever have to connect with you is magical for me.
Thanks, man.
You've made a huge difference in my life, and I can't thank you enough.
Mumble, mumble, yeah.
Mumble, mumble, mumble.
Mumble, mumble, mumble.
Yeah, no, thank you, thank you.
We're going to put in using AI, we're going to put you in the end saying please Conan, you're the most talented person I've ever met.
And you're going to hear it later, and there's going to be a lawsuit.
And we're going to insert a lot of things.
Conan, you look fantastic.
But we'll keep this part in as well.
Yes, yes, you keep this in, exposing my terrible crime.
I'll admit I'm a little terrified because Aaron Blair, aka Blay, says he has an idea for a segment.
And, you know, I guess- We don't know what it is.
We don't know what it is.
Yeah.
So here we go.
Blay, I tremble, but you have the floor.
So I don't normally do this, as you know.
And I like to think of myself generally as a unifier, bringing people together.
I don't want to be divisive.
I don't want to tear us apart as a group.
What is this?
But, you know, sometimes this preamble is going on forever.
You know, sometimes a man comes to a time in life.
Well, it's not it's not a very there's not a lot to a lot, not a lot to meet on this bone.
So I'm trying to draw your mind.
You threw Eduardo under the bus for watching.
OK, but also I will say shots were taken at me.
So I feel like, you know, you know, turnabout is fair play.
I still don't know what you're talking about.
And we're 40 minutes.
I'm going to get to it now.
So Chalemi and I, after every podcast, we clean up.
You know we want to.
We want to leave a good studio for a nice, clean studio for the next people coming in.
Sure.
And the other day I found this in Matt Gorley's chair.
Oh no, a used kleenex.
Oh well, obviously squirreled away, i didn't know that.
In the chair uh, which i cleaned up and i just i have to say that's disgusting, matt came at me.
Matt came at me with my multiple drinks in a previous segment.
I was just curious about it, and so i saw this and i was like oh, i got him, i got him.
I obviously would not have left that there if i knew.
Yeah, first of all.
First of all, Matt is an extremely cleanly person.
I am?
Cleanly?
What?
That's not... I can't speak anymore.
You could just say clean person.
No, he is one who cleanly clings to.
Matt is a man of cleanness.
You are... I barely shower.
He's trying to help you.
No, no, that is uncharacteristic of Matt, and I'm sure he just forgot it.
I find it interesting that you think he came at you for your different drinks, because I thought it was just him saying hey, what's that all about?
But it's a deep wound for you.
I didn't realize you were now a ringless golem in your cave.
He clearly came at me just like the drinks backfired on you.
I knew this was going to happen.
It was hostile.
I'm just saying.
The way you went at him was a little hostile.
I like to bring people together.
You keep saying that, but I don't think you do.
I think it's indicative of a bigger issue, which is...
We don't really clean up after ourselves that well.
You especially.
I do.
I just miss that.
You have a thousand drinking vessels and none of them get picked up afterwards.
Okay.
Let's look at the whole picture.
When you guys say we've got to clear out of this room and make way for the next taping, I'm thinking to myself this is my building.
The only reason this exists is for Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend.
This is my studio.
And then suddenly it turned out to be this Airbnb that I get to hang out in for like 20 minutes, and then I better get my ass out of here and you better clean up.
No!
Not at all!
That's insane!
This is outrageous.
This is my, I'm Hearst, and this is Hearst Castle.
One, I've got three mugs here.
Two mugs.
Two are filled with coffee, because I drink a lot of coffee.
I've also got a tea.
And your water.
I've also got these Kleenex, which, by the way, I'm more than happy to throw all over the place.
La la la!
There's just tissues everywhere.
Listen to me.
I didn't claw my way to the top of this business so that I could better get out of here quickly to make way for the other podcast that's coming in Hanging with Joe Billabai.
But first, I better clean up after myself.
Let's see now.
I've got all these little cups.
Better take them in.
Uh-oh, EB's coming.
I better wash everything thoroughly.
No!
No!
No!
EB does run a tight ship.
She does.
She does.
And you are a little scared of her.
And we all are.
I am terrified of EB.
And...
Erica Brown.
I will say Erica Brown.
And this is her place.
She runs it.
She's the queen.
And when she even looks at me if I'm using one of those metal straws, I know my only thought in my head is not to enjoy my Hailey Bieber smoothie.
No. since no longer named the Haley Bieber smoothie by the way I don't know if there was some yeah I think she got into a fight with I don't think maybe her the contract expired it's no longer called a Haley Bieber smoothie and that means you could get in there I want to get in there it could be your smoothie I want to get that smoothie I think I probably have to add something so I'll just say like throw some I don't know put a Snickers bar in there and call it the Conan O'Brien um Put a little creme de menthe in there.
So, yeah, my point was, where were we?
I'm saying you're talking a big game about making a mess.
But if Erica Brown walks in here, you will clean up after yourself, because you're scared a little bit, as we all are.
Erica Brown out by the kitchen.
If I even see her, I start scrubbing surfaces.
You were talking such a big game.
No, no, that's true.
But in here, oh no, I might risk the disapproval of Blaze.
Fuck that.
Fuck that.
I hired you when you were a fetus.
I was the one that removed your umbilical cord.
You still had it attached.
This is crazy because normally I would be defending you.
I'm your biggest defender.
And now since, you know, you teed me up, I say you go.
And so no, if you have to do a little cleaning afterwards Blay, I mean, I've kept you in your faux goofy watches.
That's right.
You live in an apartment that's filled with little action figures and posters.
Life-size predator statue.
Yeah.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Well, one day.
Yeah.
Saving up for it.
Saving up.
Yeah.
It was either that or a wife.
Or much needed.
Let's see.
Life or life-size predator statue.
Anyway, Blay, I respect where you're coming from.
It's just that you're completely wrong.
I apologize to you and Chills.
I'm very conscientious about that thing.
It's not like I ever walked in on cashew peeing or anything like that.
It was all in good fun.
Again, it was all in jest.
I really don't care.
I just was seeing it as a good opportunity to get you back for the drinks.
And I also got burned by Conan like you got burned with the drinks.
So now we're even.
Listen, the important thing is that if people are hating each other and trying to get each other...
We've recreated my childhood.
I'm very happy.
I hate how you have like pulled the strings to make us all go at each other when we should be going after you.
Why are we divided?
We should be united.
You're right.
The devil's greatest trick is making you believe he doesn't exist.
Well, anyway, Conan O'Brien needs a friend.
The Happy Friendly Show by a guy with no inner demons.
And just like that, he was gone.
All right, everybody.
Clean up after yourselves.
Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonam Ovsessian, and Matt Gourley.
Produced by me, Matt Gourley.
Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Liao.
Theme song by The White Stripes.
Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.
Take it away, Jimmy.
Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair.
And our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.
Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns.
Additional production support by Mars Melnick.
Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brit Kahn.
You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode.
Got a question for Conan?
Call the Team Coco hotline at And if you haven't already, please subscribe to.
Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.
