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Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio.
Hey and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff You Should Know.
Gee, man, addition.
Oh, yeah.
Gee, man.
That's right.
That's exactly what I meant.
Gee, man.
What a...
From a person, Jay, or Hoover was.
Yeah, I got a couple of things to say at the beginning if I may.
About Jay Edgar Hoover.
Yeah, let's hear it.
Firstly, if you want to feel old, just realize that you were alive when Jay Edgar Hoover
was still running the FBI, like I am.
Okay.
I was like, oh my God.
1972.
Is that real?
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.
Well, but also a testament to his staying power.
No, I think it's more just you being old.
Okay.
Number two, just quickly want to point out that Jay Edgar is not related to Herbert Hoover.
Okay.
Heading across my mind.
What about the Hoover vacuum client?
I don't know about that, but it crossed a lot of people's minds about Herbert because
he was...
Each of them were constantly having to sort of deflect that answer or whatever.
Say that answer.
Not hurt.
Yeah.
And third, just like...
It's fascinating to study this guy that I knew, I feel like a little bit about just from
all the various things over the years, but like what a enigma this guy was.
Yeah.
I think because he operated in such secrecy, it's kind of impossible to know a lot of
stuff about him privately because he held such power and sway over people as far as like
fear of blackmail and stuff like that.
Yeah.
That it's really interesting to like, you know, you read five different historians and
they may have five different takes on aspects of who he was in his private life and stuff
like that.
Right.
It's really interesting.
Right.
Um, those of us who were born into a world where Jay or Groover wasn't running the FBI,
lucky you.
We came along at a really different period in how people looked at him.
Like essentially from his death onward, he's been looked at as like an American villain.
Before that, basically all the way up to his death from essentially the day he started
at the FBI, America looked at him as basically as a hero essentially.
Yeah.
As a competent nonpartisan above the boards, not in any way, shape or form corrupt head
of the FBI, a technocrat who believed in applying science and detection over things
like hitting a guy with a rubber hose to get answers out of him.
He was a sea change and helped America fight off the red menace more than once.
And like you said, he was like, it was really difficult to kind of discern like who he was
even at the time when he was in the news all the time.
He served eight presidents, four Democrats, four Republicans, three green party.
And he was the head of the FBI for like 48 straight years.
I also saw him described as the most powerful civil servant America has ever seen.
Oh, easily.
I think by a long shot.
And the reason he was able to serve those eight presidents without getting fired, we'll
talk a little bit about the fact that part of that has to do with people who were legit
sort of afraid of what this guy had on them as an everybody, including presidents.
But a lot of it was because of that popularity.
I mean, I've seen most people say, oh, it was because he had dirt on all the presidents.
And that's part of it for sure.
But I also saw that a lot of it was because he was so popular that firing J. Edgar Hoover
would have been very bad for you politically because people loved him so much.
That was part of it.
He also seemed to prove to be too great a temptation for presidents to not use and ultimately
get into cooots with him.
Yeah.
Even left leaning progressives.
Yeah.
Even FDR.
That's the guy I was talking about.
And LBJ.
Even JFK.
Yeah.
So, yeah, there's a lot to talk about with this guy.
And a lot of it, like you said, is unsubstantiated because he did the smart thing and had all of his
personal records destroyed upon his death.
He had a very dedicated secretary.
And so we'll just never know a lot of it.
But there is stuff that's so close to being confirmed that it's like you can essentially
say this is true.
And there's other stuff.
It's like, what?
Where are you coming up with that?
Yeah.
That seems totally false.
And then in the middle, there's this stuff where it's like, really is it?
It's entirely possible.
It's true.
But we just don't know.
And it's great for speculation.
Either way, the stuff we do know about turned him into a reviled figure for sure.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And as you'll see during a lot of this, the guy was also sort of a walking conundrum in
a lot of ways by doing things on one hand that would seemingly find the face of things
he's doing on the other hand.
And that'll all kind of come out as we go.
But big shout out to Olivia, who did a bang up job on this one.
Yeah, great.
And also to a writer in this, Olivia got some information from this, this great book,
a historian named Beverly Gage from Yale University wrote a book in 2022 called G-Man,
Roland, J. Edgar Hoover and the making of an American century.
Yeah, pretty great stuff.
Yeah.
So yeah, Beverly Gage is essentially like the definitive source of J. Edgar Hoover information
right now.
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of Hoover bios.
And they all, some of them flying the face of each other with what they claim.
It's pretty interesting.
For sure.
So let's start at the beginning.
Let's start when he was born back in 1895.
That's right.
That's a long time ago.
And one thing to know about J. Edgar Hoover is he was a DC boy born and bred his entire life.
He was born in that city and he died in that city.
Yeah, he was born Capitol Hill and Seward Square and comes from a, came from a long line
of family that worked for the government.
His dad in particular, one Dickerson, Nailer Hoover.
Great name.
Worked for something called the United States Coast and Geo-Detics Survey, which was a
scientific organization.
And he had siblings.
He had a sister that died when he was three.
It seems like his father suffered from some mental illness and depression, which would
ultimately be the cause of his death in 1921.
And we can get into some sort of armchair speculation on Hoover's mental condition,
maybe at the end.
Sure.
I can't wait.
But when he was a kid, he was pretty shy. He was known as a mama's boy.
Had a very sort of overbearing, doting mother.
He had a stutter.
Apparently the stutter was so bad that he went about correcting it by just talking really
fast.
And that kind of ran through his life.
I think there were court stenographers period that couldn't keep up with him on the
job.
He was so fast.
Yeah.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
He was so fast.
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All right.
So we promised talk of the FBI initially and we've said this on other episodes.
It was called the Bureau Investigations at first.
It was formed in 1908, basically to say, hey, US Attorney General, you need some teeth.
Here's your own law enforcement organization.
It became the FBI in 1935.
And early on was kind of an interested in corporate criminals, radicalism, and a real, kind
of from the beginning, a real crackdown and obsession with sex work.
Yeah, the Man Act.
Right.
Yeah.
Big deal.
And it was also very corrupt and didn't have the best reputation until a Coolidge came along in 1924 and hired a guy named
Dylan Fisk Stone to reform the DOJ and kind of just clean house and get the FBI in good standing.
Yeah, which is amazing that they're like Hoover.
Why don't you take over?
But that's exactly what they did.
They made him acting director of the Bureau of Investigations starting in, I think the same
year, Harlan Stone came in 1924, right?
Yeah.
And they got rid of that GID, by the way.
And they did, but it just went away essentially in name, not spirit by any, any measure.
Yeah.
And again, just like at the GID, J. Eger Hoover said about applying the principles of bureaucracy, of organization, and of science too.
He was a true believer in science to this, this nascent Bureau of investigation.
And one of the stunning statistics I ran across that really gets across his, just how much of an impact he had on the FBI when he took it over,
over the course of 10 years, I think, up to 1936, they amassed a huge collection of fingerprints.
So they're like 100,000 fingerprints.
And they had people whose entire job it was to go look up the fingerprints and bring them for analysis, right?
10 years later, in 1946, they had 100 million sets of fingerprints.
And there was only 140 million people who lived in America at the time.
That's crazy, man.
Yeah.
Wow.
He also created like a forensic lab.
He created the FBI Academy.
Like he really, not only kind of brought their reputation back, but like you said, he organized them in a way that where they operated like a,
like a, like a humming machine.
Right.
And people, people respected that they admired it.
Like it was, you know, it really fit in with FDR's New Deal thing of like, hey, your government is big and for a reason,
like we can do all sorts of amazing, competent, capable stuff to make the life of the average person greater.
Look at all these fingerprints.
Exactly.
I don't know if it necessarily fit in with the New Deal, but one of the other things that J. Grueger did was he instituted this,
these policies that when you put them all together basically made, it required every FBI agent to be net flanders essentially.
And he did that because he wanted, he wanted his people to seem above reproach.
Because at the time, the idea of like law enforcement was that if they weren't incompetent, then they were crooked or maybe they were both.
Like there was not like a lot of public regard for law enforcement.
So he wanted to make sure that his particular agency was separated itself from that, like put itself head and shoulders.
You know, like the way that any move that FBI agents come in just completely take control of like the investigation or the crime scene or whatever.
Yeah, that was essentially that came from Hoover, like like he created this image of the FBI agents is so uber competent that no one would would challenge them if they did walk into a crime scene and take over.
Yeah.
And if you remember seeing a lot of movies that had FBI agents portrayed as like tall handsome white guys is because FBI agents were largely almost roundly tall handsome white guys.
He hired a lot of his again with the corny as a lot of his alums from GW a lot of KAs.
He kept the FBI from bringing a class of civil service.
So he didn't have, you know, he could basically flout any rules that would have forced him to have like a to look at any kind of diverse applicant.
So he wanted white men that were good looking again as a PR move it was it was a popular thing at the time.
Ironically in the 40s Ebony magazine did a feature on like black employees of the FBI and Hoover even helped them with this because it was a PR thing.
But they they were all valets none of them were agents because there were no black agents.
Right. Yeah. And the like you said the way it got around that was to accept the FBI from civil service.
And I was like how did you do that and how did you get away with that.
And there's something called accepted service.
And it's where you don't you're not that agency is not subject to the same laws and requirements as a civil service agency is.
But the reason he was doing is he was saying like some of these laws are letting people in government who are just really slack keep their jobs and I can't have that in the FBI have to have top notch crack people who I'm able to fire if they don't meet our standards.
I think that's how he was able to get the FBI out of civil service classification.
Yeah. And you mentioned Ned Flanders. He wanted them to be like you said sort of beyond reproach and morally upright. So he insisted that they not drink alcohol at least sort of on the job like you know have the martinis at lunch kind of thing.
Apparently he was a big martini guy.
But as the story goes only after work only two martinis and then later in life when he was in you know sort of older and not in the best of health.
His doctor said he can't drink martinis anymore and he was like well that's not going to happen.
And he said all right cut down to one martini then and he said sure and as legend has it he had his staff by larger martini glasses and then dropped it down to one.
Yeah that was something I saw the there was a frontline episode from years and years ago called the file on Jay Eger Hoover.
And a lot of it seems totally off the rails and unbelievable for good reason.
But some of the stuff that he had the FBI staff do for him was so above and beyond what any agency staff should be doing for the director.
Like they replaced his grass once because he didn't like the color green.
Just all just stuff like that so I totally believe that he had his FBI like FBI staff by bigger martini glasses for his home.
That was totally in line with what how he treated the bureau.
It was his own kingdom and little by little he made it so it's not like he came into it and somebody handed him the keys and said good luck.
Go make this agency that so powerful it is essentially a fourth branch of government.
He built it little by little bit by bit dirt by dirt favor by favor and it became the it got to the point fairly quickly where he could do stuff like that and no one would say anything about it.
Yeah absolutely.
All right so let's go to the 1930s this was as Libya call that we love our golden ages and this this may have been the golden age of the FBI.
This is when through PR and as we'll see through movies and television and through sort of the him helping to control the news machine.
The FBI were where he rose they had fans like people love these G men and we'll get to that well you might as well say I think G men was supposedly coin by machine gun Kelly.
The good one who in the 19th is either one of them good alright in 1933 you don't shoot G men like government men but he he sort of formed in the 1930s this image.
That actually like you know there were little little boys and maybe some girls but definitely little boys running around the school yard like playing G men they want to be G men.
They were they were sort of superstars because they would bus high profile bank robbers and he just you know he jumped in on the Lindbergh maybe kidnapping which you know horrified a nation he apparently didn't have any legal jurisdiction but like you said.
J. Edgar Hoover walks under the scene is like we're taking over now and no one's going to stand in his way.
No not at all but in in doing those kind of things he just built the reputation for the FBI by leaps and bounds one of the things that he did that was so masterful in taking on the gangsters was to not try to.
Disweight the public from glorifying them yeah so the gangsters were just amazing folk heroes but the FBI was even greater is there the ones taking down these amazing folk here like that the gangsters are here but man.
The average FBI agent is head and shoulders above them because he's going to get him sooner later and probably kill him in a shootout in front of a house or a theater or something like that yeah and so he was able to play off of the public's fascination with gangsters and use that kind of parlay.
FBI FBI the FBI's reputation above it yeah he this is kind of called the public enemy era as well because he would use that term for people like John Dillinger I mean this guy.
Dillinger was robbing banks he was a bank robber but to call someone a public enemy like it almost elevated them in his own way to folk hero status but also like.
Vogue villain status I guess is a better way to say it sure yeah for sure like is a bank robber really a public enemy I mean it's not a great thing to do well supposedly in 1933 34 there was a massive crime wave and there were a lot of murders going on people were like gangster were shooting each other in the streets over turf like it was yeah shots yeah so yeah there I mean yeah just a straight up bank robber probably not but these guys were doing any and all crime they were like.
criminals of all trades from what I could tell okay public enemies in other words so yeah but at the same time yes it was a huge publicity thing to this public enemy number one you know yeah number one was Dillinger right but there are other public enemies number one but he was the first public enemy number one I think.
Oh so those number two he just kept moving the number one mantle around well he just kill off the number one. I knew everyone was below them would come up and become number one I guess I guess that makes sense.
So one of the ways that he shaped public opinion to was directly by working with journalists by working with film and TV producers and writers and he actually created a branch in the FBI called the crime records division which sounds very innocuous but it turns out that they were the ones who were in charge of the crime.
We were in charge of generating pro FBI propaganda and making sure it got out there in the media yeah I mean this this is where it gets truly sort of nut so he had at one point sort of de facto final cut on movies that were being produced.
He had approval or denial of casting choices like literally he approved Jimmy Stewart you know as a can't remember what movie it was even in a movie as like the lead in the movie after like interviewing him he interviewed Jimmy Stewart gave him the job or you know gave him the stamp of approval.
Apparently didn't like that Jimmy Cagney was portraying gangsters so he said you can do it as long as you quote get killed in the end right and make sure that you're dead because no gangsters were supposed to live in any of the movies or TV shows and he even has three writer credits and one no one acting credit I think the writing credits were generally stuff based on cases that he was involved in so they gave him he may have insisted on a credit.
I don't know but he does have one actor credit he was a narrator on a film called the next of kin well so he was he was deep in yeah he was deep into everything in anything that was going on in American life above or below the boards from what I can tell yeah or the line so the gangster air kind of went away in the mid to late 30s.
I mean there are plenty of gangster still but there was a there was a change over it went from like bankrupting cow murdering bandits like John Dillinger and started to become organized crime the mafia the mob and at that point is it started to kind of branch out and become well as legitimate as legitimized as the mafia can be an organized.
Jager Hoover stopped paying attention to the gangsters and instead turned his attention to political surveillance again instead yeah I think his whole deal I did a little more research into the mafia thing the mafia was a problem but he didn't see the mafia as a threat to the American way of life as he defined it.
Communism for sure. Rable rousing civil rights leaders for sure as we'll see gay and lesbian community for sure all of that threatened this sort of idyllic old fashioned way of American life as he saw it the mafia didn't necessarily so he was never as concerned with them as he probably should have been he was like let the cops handle that.
So okay that totally makes sense and because it's the simplest explanation it's probably correct but there is such a thread of thought that the that Jager Hoover was either compromised and the mafia had him in a compromising position and or he was friends with if not actual mobsters friends of mobsters he was in their world.
Him personally publicly he was the head of the FBI and he carried out all of the crime fighting and leftist rousing and all that stuff but privately if these even half of these stories are to be believed he was a crook a total crook with a gambling problem and who was in the pocket of the mafia because they had dirt on him.
So another explanation that said yes he actually purposely ignored the mafia not because they had like compromising pictures of him but because they were in cahoots with a lot of elected officials and he didn't want to lose his position going after the mafia and having them get all of their elected official friends turning on him because he didn't know if he could survive that kind of thing.
That was another explanation I saw but whatever whatever the interpretation is historically speaking he ignored the mafia and actually denied for a decade after it was clear there was such a thing as a national syndicate of Mafioso.
Mafioso, Mafioso, yeah Mafioso, yeah he kept denying it like actively denying it and apparently moved to kind of thwart some of the federal and congressional investigations into the existence of the mafia like he personally was trying to not at least not help if not actively disrupt that so there's something weird going on exactly what was behind it though we'll probably never know.
Yeah what's interesting is that when I was reading through interviews with different biographers and you would see two that were just so diametrically opposed and what they thought like oh and they're all very convinced that they're right but it almost seems like some of these biographies are either written by literal fans of his still right or then or people that hated him.
Yeah like if you start looking into like some of the more salacious charges about him and like why the mafia like was allowed to just operate you mostly have to take the word of old mafia guys who were like there for sure like this guy really was the right hand man to Meyer Lansky but can you believe him when he sits for an interview talking about how Meyer Lansky had pictures that he used to show his friends for fun of J. Aguijuver you know.
Having sex with his partner you know like it's you really kind of have to stop and say where's this where's this source coming from and what all what actually have to grind so here's what I say this is this is going so good and it's going long so why don't we take another break come back and do a little more but let's let's make this a two partner.
What you should should we do just totally sprung this on me out of the blue let me think about it.
Okay we'll think about it over the break and we'll be right back.
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Okay Chuck I've decided there is a fine idea.
So should we chat a little bit I think you sort of teased and then I got us off topic about the mafia you tease a little bit about going into sort of the beginnings of the surveillance and working tightly with presidents right.
Yeah I think I think I said something like that but like there was at the end of the gangster era he kind of swapped over to from like continuing on with gangsters which would make total sense for the FBI to do this to instead turning his attention back to political stuff yeah to disrupting any kind of political thought that goes against the American way as envisioned by J. Groover.
Yeah and one of the ways he did this was by.
Allying himself closely with different presidents you know you said beginning work for a different presidents and I think as it's generally thought that he was.
Super tight and kind of close to two of them two of them didn't like him and and for just sort of played ball because they felt like they had to.
So I can I can guess Kennedy definitely didn't like him and that was reciprocal who is the other one you didn't like him i think it was.
Kennedy and Johnson.
I thought Johnson love the guy.
Well I know Nixon did yeah he was personally friends with with Nixon and I know that they were actual friends FDR I don't know how much he liked him but.
The fact that they ended up you know working closely with one another is maybe one of the bigger surprises of the episode because.
They were pretty diametrically opposed as as humans go.
Yeah but this is kind of like touching on what I was saying before that there were presidents who saw him and what he could do as too useful to resist exactly and and FDR was.
Like he had this vision for America to and it was much more inclusive and it cared much more about the average person who didn't necessarily think exactly the same way as everybody else.
But he also didn't want it disrupted by communists or at the time not see either yeah so he saw it as a useful thing to do like to to kind of keep tabs on it and I guess from from you know this idea of.
J. Gover and presidents working in coo it seems like FDR is the first one that this really begins with yeah I think in 1936 in August that year they met together at the White House and they they gendered a plan for surveillance kind of the first big surveillance launch.
Of like you said people who they thought might be communist people who they thought might be fascists a few years later Roosevelt was like hey turns out you're pretty good at this surveillance thing and keeping secret files so why don't you why don't we resurrect that general intelligence intelligence division that was scuttled and who were probably laughed and was like we've still been doing it this whole time we just didn't have a formal name.
Oh I don't know if I'll be able to get the gang back but they they secretly reformalized at least the the G. I. D. and Hoover said alright I appreciate that and you know what I'm going to do for you.
I'll just not even at your direction I'll just keep an eye on your political enemies and just if I need to let you know anything I'll let you know.
Yeah so supposedly that is one of the ways that he kept power he never blackmailed anybody but if one of his agents came across some juicy tidbit he would he would send them to you know say the senator's office and be like senator we were investigating the
thing and this tidbit about you came up and we really thought it was the kind of thing you'd want to know we're keeping a lid on it don't worry about it but we thought you'd want to know and now the senator's like oh my God this guy knows these the FBI knows that I have this I'm on this committee that funds them I
should probably give them whatever they want whatever they ask for that's apparently how we operate is very passive aggressive strong arming right yeah he did have a we should mention those
in the FBI he had a very famously had a file on Eleanor Roosevelt which thick one supposedly had nude pictures of Eleanor Roosevelt that were given to J Edgar Hoover by WC
fields what that's he had a tremendous collection of pornography right was well known for it and to J Edgar Hoover he would say well I've got
to know what's out there in order to fight this stuff everyone else like okay sure whatever yeah but he supposedly had a very large connection of of
Nudes of famous people Maryland Monroe is among them but apparently Eleanor Roosevelt was one what an old WC fields gave it to him wow I don't know how he got it I don't either so
okay Chuck do you want to do you want to put part two here and come back and pick up at the beginning of the Cold War because now J Edgar Hoover's fighting you
know communist but more often Nazis America's entering World War two and America's really cool with the idea of the FBI rooting out Nazis
but World War two came to an end believe it or not Nazis went away now they needed a new enemy to investigate that's right the
Nazis and that that seems like a great place to stop yes so yeah we'll see you guys in part two and if you want to send us an email in the
meantime send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio.com stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio for more podcasts my
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