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Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts.
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And thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for having me Kwamy, absolutely delighted to be here.
Yes, we are delighted to have you my friend so how would you get it started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Thanks Kwamy, well first of all again thanks for having me on.
As I will send you just a minute or two ago you know I've been using your podcast to tell a lot of my students to go listen to this podcast if you want to hear some of the most influential people in our field so just to say you know.
So thank you man. Myself, my name is Enda Young and I have been involved in conflict resolution, negotiation, mediation, one shape or form of for about 20 years.
I'm currently the managing director of mediation Northern Ireland and I've kind of joke with people I'm a recovery mechanical engineer, that was my original degree but I got involved in this work, I already as a teenager.
And maybe I can tell you a little bit about that as well of why I do what I do, I guess, you know?
So that's me. This is great and, you know, I've been excited to have you on the show for months now.
Thank you for your patience when it came to scheduling.
And you have such an interesting background because you have the negotiation background, you have the mediation background, but then also where you're from, Northern Ireland, Ireland.
I feel like people don't fully appreciate the conflict that was happening in that area of the world and so can you start off by telling us a little bit about that story and how that impacted your journey.
Yeah absolutely Kwame.
I suppose my own journey started when I was a teenager, I was about 16 or 17 years old and I got involved in what we would call cross -community work then you know, largely I mean bluntly speaking between you know, people who would identify as Catholic and people identify from a Protestant background.
For myself, in the context, we had a good Friday Belfast peace agreement in 1998, but before that we'd lost about three and a half thousand people.
And with injuries of over 50 ,000 people who had been injured during our conflict or troubles.
This month in particular is the 35th anniversary of one particular bomb but IRA and Enniskillen and that particular bomb I guess my connection with it was in that bomb at the time two particular individuals were caught up on it one called Gordon Wilson and his daughter Marie and when the bomb went off, they buried both of those individuals in the rubble and Marie was buried in the rubble with her father Gordon and her last words that he had heard her say at the time where daddy I love you very much, before she passed.
And what was famous at the time was Gordon was in film by the BBC and, you know, how horrific a circumstance that was.
He said at the time I bare no ill will.
I bare no grudge. Dirty sort of talk is not going to bring her back to life.
You know, and at that time, you know, you know, that temporary, you know, of his 25 years of violence.
It had a huge impact, particularly emotionally, and it became known that, you know, by what Gordon said at the time, you know, really did stop retaliations at that moment in time, you know, for that particular bombing.
From his, I guess that act of reconciliation or act of, you know, I don't know, not forgiveness, but what he said and how he said it, then an organization grew out of that and he set up called the Spirit of End of Skill.
And that organization, basically every year, 50 young people went away, each group had 10 people, five girls, five boys, five Catholics, five Protestants.
And you went on an eight month program and I was one of those people who went away on that program.
We ended up being in Maine, Penobscot, in a job corps for a few weeks.
Ended up learning the basics of facilitation, conflict resolution, conflict analysis and things like that.
And during that program, when we came home, one day, two people came into the organization and did a one -day training session of mediation, and I remember, I must've been 17 at the time and I remember just going, wow, what is that, and how do I do that for the rest of my life?
So I did my engineering, got my degree and kind of went back and switched from mechanical engineering to my master's in theory, culture and identity, really focused on conflict transformation.
So, so there was a bit of a shock to the system.
But but again, as what I said, a lot of people when I'm coaching them as well, I mean, it's like regardless of what I think difficult it was, you gotta fight all follow that bit of fire in your belly.
Right? You know, why do you do you do and I can reflect now down the line.
I'm glad I made that choice because it defined me, right, you know, and it is that thing that gives me passion, you know, and it's, you know, the whole salmon cynic of the Hawaii, you know, that's my kind of purpose, I think, you know?
So because of that then, I've been lucky to have done an awful lot of work nationally, internationally, lecturing, training, working with everyone, some of the worst major companies in Dubai, Malaysia, working a lot with the World Health Organisation, lecturing at Queen's University Belfast, and I know currently, the Managing Directors, is at a mediation Northern Ireland.
I've come back to that, it was that organisation which trained me 20 years ago.
And I'm now, I guess, trying to see what they do over the next 25 years, right?
Wow, that is incredible.
Just kudos to you. It's an incredible story, and your perseverance and focus in this is really inspiring.
And then also for me, it's cool to see that there's so many people around the world having the same kind of How you went through that program and you said mediation what is that?
I want all of that.
I want that in my life, right?
And so for me it was negotiation and conflict resolution.
It's like how do I make that happen?
So it's really cool to see you matriculating and like growing in this and then helping spread this message throughout the world.
So kudos to you on that.
Thanks Kwame. And listen to your podcast and you see, it was the world of mediation that got me into negotiation, right?
And I love that idea of the fundamental basics underneath it.
Because for me, regardless of where you are in the world, people are people.
Hurt is hurt, harm is harm.
The cultural nuance changes, the lens changes, right?
The monomony might change, but the fundamental belief, and that's what I've seen wherever I've worked, is the fundamental thing that makes us us remains the same.
And it's the unpacking of that that becomes really interesting.
Yes. Well, let's start unpacking it.
Let's begin this interesting journey.
This is great, let's start.
So one of the things that you talked about was the intersection between negotiation and mediation.
Tell us more about that.
Again, it goes back to the idea of, and I would have maybe even coached him sometimes into that as well a little bit, right?
But maybe I'll come back to that.
I think that idea of how do we strive for alternative dispute resolution mechanisms?
What are the other ways of dealing with conflict outside of of violence right outside of the more destructive elements and for me the relationships and skill sets between negotiation and mediation are the same right I mean the stuff that a lot of your your your speakers and a lot of your listeners would be very ill -fed with how do we listen how do we power for you as hard as we summarize how do we focus on dialogue and not just debate and all of those elements?
So I think there's a fundamental connection there.
I think when you look at the similarity between for example mediation and coaching which for me a lot of these sit within that same spectrum the belief that the person in front of you has the answer right you know, and as a mediator that we're here to tease out, to find.
And the belief is I'm not there to fix it, I'm there to help them find their way to their solution.
And the same with coaching, executive coaching Right?
And ironically, you know, the people who have seen struggle sometimes the most when I'm training professional mediators, for example, are sometimes professional negotiators.
Right. And part of that for me is quite often I see really highly skilled professional negotiators who are brilliant at what they do.
Super experienced. But they're fixers, right?
They're people who are good at fixing and I've been trained to fix, maybe naturally inclined that way.
And then when I'm training in mediation, normally gets you know day two day three in a five -day program.
And sometimes they're really struggling and they're struggling to take that step back because they're still in fixing mode.
And actually the idea that you know it's not your conflict therefore it shouldn't be your solution can be quite challenging to people who just want to fix.
I hear so much to dig into here so let's go deeper.
When somebody wants to fix, let's say it might be somebody who has negotiation, background, whatever it happens to be, they want to fix.
What is it within themselves that they need to change in order to adopt a better mindset to be a better media?
I love that question.
And I think it comes down to being able to let go.
Right. That I mean, it's that maximum it's not your conflict there for us, not your solution.
And sometimes, you know, it's one of those moments in training where you're just waiting for something to click, you know, when I see they say, you know, training professional coaches as well.
And I think for me, it comes down to the intention behind the action.
Are you doing it for you or are you doing it for them?
Also, this idea that if, I mean, I mean, let's take it from a practical standpoint, if you are the negotiator who's now working in a mediation capacity and you see the solution, you feel a solution, and then you give the solution.
Again, it might make you feel good.
Don't mean hitting all of that stuff, and it might work.
It might work in the short term.
But I guarantee you this, if you go back in the long term, you've removed ownership over that solution, right?
And it's not your solution, which might work on paper, but how much real emotional investment do those individuals have who've been in that room with you?
And particularly then if you're dealing with different partner constructs.
Right? People will say yes.
If they know that their boss needs them to say yes, for example, right?
Or in a community setting there may be other pressures there, for example.
So who are you doing it for and are you sure?
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode.
I want to ask you a question.
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Oh, man, again, listen, and I need you to stop giving answers that are so profound because because I have so many different angles that I want to go with my follow up questions.
Okay, so let's, this is so good.
Okay, so, I love the fact that you're asking that grounding question, are you doing it for you or doing it for them?
Because I know there have been times in my life where I realized, why am I pushing so hard?
What is this? Oh, this is about me.
Because I, as a negotiator, sometimes we have that deal -making bias and then we make it about ourselves by saying, listen, if I'm a good negotiator, I can get this done, and it becomes very problematic, especially in your personal life, because now you're removing somebody's autonomy and agency, and they feel like you're forcing them.
And it reminds me of one of the things, somebody brought up in one of the trainings, and I told her, I'm like, listen, I'm gonna put this in every training going forward.
Collaboration builds commitment.
Collaboration builds commitment.
If they feel as though they can look at the deal and see some of themselves in the deal, they can look back and remember the process and see that they contributed to it.
Now they're bought in, because it's not your deal, it's my deal.
And I want this to succeed.
And so we have to be able to remove ourselves, not just by recognizing, hey, my ego is now getting in the way.
But also we realized that even if I let my ego get in the way, and I do get a deal done, it's good for me.
But it's not good for them, because the deal, the what we want are lasting fields where people are bought in that's really, really important.
Absolutely. I mean and I think, you know, the ways that we can help negate that are, you know, having good professional supervision as a mediator, for example, can help that have not, you know, sounding board outside of the system and the process that you're currently working on and the same as you know, coaches having coaches as well, right, having someone to work through, you know, absolutely it's it's critical, it's critical, when when When you are seeing people going through this process, because you've trained a countless amount of mediators at this point, what would you say are the elements
that separate the good mediators from the great mediators?
I think a few things, one curiosity.
The ability to take that step back, emotional maturity sometimes.
And the ability to realize that you're not always right, and there's always more to learn, I think.
And, you know, when you do get those individuals on programs who are clearly, you know, coming from maybe a previous experience or may be naturally, you know, inclined towards this work.
The idea of going, actually, I do need to do some stuff on myself that somebody said to me years ago that really defined it really well, good friend of mine who works and you can in Canada you know it's about you knowing your stuff you know and your own stuff and I mean that in a non -patrickizing sense you know realising that you know you got to know your own conflict resolution skill you know style sorry you know you're more inclined to avoid are you again somebody said to me and not a mentor from years ago my stuff said to me you know some people who work in this field and I mean that as negotiation mediation conflict
resolution in general sometimes some of us tend to be naturally attracted the conflict.
Um, and, and we got to be careful with that, you know.
Oh, that's fascinating.
Go, go deeper on that last point.
Yeah, I mean, I think I've seen, you know, if you've ever tried to get a group of mediators to agree on something, for example, right, you know, or, or you're training people in the negotiation room, and particularly you're going to be experiencing negotiators, senior negotiators?
And you're trying to, you know decide what you're doing, you know, you know, for the evening and what restaurants are going to go out to.
Those small nuances, those even those small things become interesting, because again, you have people who, who are highly skilled and dependent on where they're on their own professional journey, you know, how you, you know their own level of self -awareness, their own levels of emotional resilience, you know, their own levels of stress, all of that mix that makes us who we are today, not six years ago when we did our last CPD training course, right?
This is great. It makes so much sense.
And I genuinely got a big old kick out of what you said, trying to get mediators and negotiators to agree because it's so true.
And I think a lot of times we can't turn it off.
It's like, hey, okay, we can't do it.
And then it's also these interactions turn into ego measuring competitions.
Let's call it ego measuring, right?
where it's like, oh, you're a good mediator.
Well, I'm a better one.
You're a good negotiator.
I'm a better one. Oh, we're making a decision on where to go.
Let me try to influence that decision just kind of to show off how good I am at this.
And then when you bring it to the um, the actual conflicts itself, like the ones that matter, right?
So the negotiations, the difficult conversations where we're having with somebody else or as as mediators, where we are trying to essentially facilitate an agreement between two parties, a lot of times we start to inject ourselves into the process inappropriately in a way that doesn't serve us but just serves our ego, right, and it holds us back.
Absolutely, and I think that ego, you know, I was working with some really fantastic facilitators in Germany recently, and I just loved how they operated.
They were, you know, there's three of us facilitating this, you know, five -day sort of conflict resolution negotiation training, and the two of them kept, it's been working each other for years, kept checking in.
I'm really sorry I said that, you know, that was my ego that meant that, I just love that level of professionalism with which you can use other people to check your own ego and be completely honest.
When I'm training negotiating teams as well, it's that idea of going, have you given the other members of your team permission to pull you on your ego?
Particularly if you're the boss, particularly if you're the lead negotiator.
Because quite often, it's that idea, it's the age old manager.
my door's always open and then you do the 360 assessment.
Not necessarily what the feedback said, right?
Yep. No, you're so right.
And I think it takes a lot of humility and self -awareness to recognize that.
And I think one of the things that's really helpful is when you realize that these just flaws and mistakes, those type of things, they are not an indication of a lack of worth for you as a professional or a human.
green. It's just an indication of your humanity and we're just all at the end of the day trying to become better people and so the faster I can acknowledge that and take the feedback on the chin and say you know what and you're right.
That was a bad call on my part and when I look at myself, I think that was purely ego, my bad.
Yeah, everybody elevates because of it.
Completely, completely.
And it is then high in what we do, it gives people permission around us to do the same.
Big time. And again, it's the mirroring behaviors, it's all the stuff that we know about and sometimes the stuff that we forget about when we're busy.
When we're in the flow of the negotiation, when we're in the flow of the mediation, when we're focused on the process around us.
But sometimes we forget about the emotional legacy with which we leave those conversations sometimes as well.
Right? Yeah, absolutely.
And one of the things that you mentioned earlier, when you talked about the skills of great negotiators was the ability to step back.
And, you know, step back, you could think about it physically, it seems pretty easy, okay, and I took a step back, right?
But when you say step back, there are several layers to it.
So what does that mean to you?
I love that. What's something that I've become really interested in over the last few years, particularly when I'm coaching people doing conflict coaching, and you know, helping people become on stock, I was coaching someone recently, and were really struggling.
I was working with this individual senior -level manager for a year.
And took him about three quarters of the way through the year of coaching.
I got it now, I was able to take that step back.
But we did a deep dive.
And I loved the work of Yuri Fisher and we're all familiar with going to the balcony.
I love that term. Then we unpack that term.
What does the term mean?
So for some people, it's about seeing each word that's said at that moment in time.
And I kind of parallel it with first aid, right?
You know, if you're trained as a first responder, you're, you know, yeah, you can walk in and help if there's a crash in their motorway system or the road.
But if you don't take a step back, guess what happens?
You get hit by the next car, and you become part of the problem.
And for me, it's exactly the same thing as you going to the balcony.
So, you know, so we analyze that when I'm coaching people.
So, what do you do?
You know, how do you talk to yourself?
You know, and if you're, you know, really, really fast.
Well then slow how you talk to yourself down.
If you're shouting at yourself, guess what?
Go softer. If you know, for some people putting the tongue to the roof of their mouth acts as a physical anchor, and you know, switch off those parts of the brain responsible for speech.
Other people as I said, see each individual word.
Other people focus on their breathing.
Other people twiddle their toes, right?
To anchor themselves, or anchor points on their thumb and their finger.
But fundamentally, I guarantee you this, you're listening, or whoever's, He already did this, right?
We already go to the balcony.
And yet often there are times we do it better than others.
And it's that deconstruction of the times we do it better that interests me.
So when's the last time you did it really well?
What was the difference between that time and the time where you were tired or you were grumpy.
You're whatever that might be.
And if you can deconstruct that, then you can repeat that.
Oh, this is good. Because what I'm realizing, as you describe it, is that essentially everybody's balcony is different.
Yeah. And and so when we describe, I love that fisher and yurie would get into Yes, they described it so well.
And then I know that there are some people who read their work and said, Ah, it doesn't really resonate.
Well, then maybe you need to go to a different place, right?
So for them, it might be described as balcony for me as somebody who loves chess it might be walked to the other side of the table you know it's because I naturally if I'm playing in person I can naturally see feel myself like okay I need to stand up I'm not seeing I'm gonna look from a different angle right and so whatever works for you you have to figure that out and there will be times where you're better and so like i'll disclose some examples so I know for me I'm better in general at work than I am at home So, like, if it's a business negotiation, imagine like with a client, that's super easy
because it's easy to detach.
It becomes harder when it's colleagues at work, but still a little bit easier than it is at home with family and friends because those relationships are more lasting.
Right. And so then I realized what is the mentality that helps me to do well in those?
It's going to the balcony, looks different.
So for me in a mediation, I think to myself, listen, this is not my conflict.
Right. And so I'm here to be the level head of nobody.
if I'm not level -headed, then who will be?
So it's my responsibility.
So I can go, I can pull myself back because it's not mine.
But then at home, what I have to do is I have to say, I always say to myself, what would I tell somebody else to do?
Because that puts me back into that, like the role of a professional.
So I'm going to be more compassionate and empathetic with my tone, but I'm going to remember, stick to the fundamentals, listen, use empathy, use the compassionate curiosity framework, whatever it is.
And so I stick to that form, but I have to have like a little Kwame coach in my head.
So it's really cool to see that you can get to that same destination using different methodologies.
And I think it changes as well, right?
Because it changes with our own emotional resilience, our own levels of caffeine intake or sleep, nutritional arrangements, exercise, all of those things affect that moment in time.
So, that idea of preparation before we go in as, and I know you've got a really good preparation sheet on your website, all of that.
All of that comes into your ability to go to the balcony today, before your next negotiation, before your next mediation.
Even those 30 seconds can, and we know what effects are from a neurological and biological perspective.
positive. You know for me, I focus on my tone.
Obviously Chris Voss talks about the cool late night DJ voice or my wife calls it my UN voice.
There's that. So tonality is a big thing for me.
And I think that helps me focus on where I need to be at that moment in time as well as breathing.
And the last thing, and it comes from the work of Susan Davies as well.
There are emotional intelligence and stuff like that from Harvard is that idea of your mantra, right?
You know, very quick one, you know, all problems want to be solved.
All problems want to be solved, right?
It's something like that.
It works for me, right?
And everyone, as you said, is different.
You know? And I love exploring that with individuals and going, well, what's yours right now?
And what is it on your best days?
This is good. Oh, man, there is so much.
And you know, So, I think at this point, it's very clear, we need to have you back on.
We need to have you back on, man.
This is too good. And listen, little Easter egg for the listeners too, I am promising everybody I will be in Europe unless there's another pandemic, okay, hopefully not.
I will be in Europe in the summer of 2023.
So hopefully we can make that happen and maybe next time we do it, we can do it in person.
That'd be pretty cool.
like, load, that will find yourself officially invited to Belfast, Kwame!
Hey, I appreciate it, brother!
Well, listen, before you go, remind the listeners about your incredible work and how they can get in touch with you!
Thank you, thanks for having me on, and you can find me on LinkedIn at endeyoung and on our website for mediation, Northern Ireland, at mediationni .org.
Reach out, folks, I am always, always happy to chat, that's my job!
this is great and thank you so much for joining us really appreciate it thank you Krami thanks so much for having me on buddy thank you congratulations you've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode you're now officially on the negotiate anything team so welcome aboard what most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show the best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better.
Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations.
Again thank you for joining the team.
We are excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode.
I'll catch you later.
