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as black experiences, you'll hear.
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You're listening to LifeKit.
From NPR.
Hey everybody, it's MaryL.
At LifeKit, you know that we love to get vulnerable with you.
I mean, so much of our show is about navigating tricky emotional situations, right?
Learning how to be single, dealing with anxiety, repairing family relationships,
basically just being a human.
And that's one reason I'm excited about Wildcard.
It's a new show from NPR hosted by Rachel Martin.
And in the show, Rachel plays a card game with her guests.
That creates the space for them to get really vulnerable.
To talk about their deepest joys and fears and experiences.
Today on LifeKit, we're going to hear one of those episodes.
Rachel's conversation with the actress, writer, and producer Issa Rae.
But first, Rachel and I sat down to talk a little about the game.
Because it's actually something you can play at home.
Or with anyone that you want to get to know on a deeper level.
Hey Rachel.
Hey MaryL.
Okay, so describe the concept of the show for me.
Okay, so sometimes talking about the things that are most precious to you
and most intimate can be a little bit intimidating.
And unless you're sitting around with like your nearest and dearest,
it may be not a thing you feel comfortable doing.
So we made a game out of it.
To make it a little more accessible.
To make it so that there's a little bit of whimsy, a little bit of play, right?
And to also create a way for other people to play along at home.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, for our audience at LifeKit, I'm thinking about how they can use questions like these
or games like these to get to know each other better.
Yeah.
And I think there's something that really works about the game to create intimacy.
And I wonder how you thought about that when you all designed it.
I mean, that must be intentional, right?
Definitely.
And at first, I have to admit that when my producer, Lee Hale,
came up with this idea, I was like, isn't this, isn't this going to,
like, I don't know, make light of these things?
Like the stuff that I wanted to talk about, like grief and aspirations and fear and failure.
Like, isn't a game going to dilute the power of those topics?
And what's been crazy is how it doesn't at all.
It creates, as you said, this intimacy.
And I'm also in it.
Like, one of the rules in the game is that you can flip a question on me.
And I think when the interviewer and interviewer are on more of a level playing ground,
then that also helps cultivate that intimacy.
Yeah.
Because that turns it more from an interview into a conversation, which is help me.
So we want our interviews to feel like anyway.
Always say that we want them to be conversations, not interviews, especially with people.
We're talking with a lot of successful people in a lot of different industries, right?
And these are people who are professional speakers.
You know, they know how to tell a good story.
They know how to tell their own story.
They've told it a million times in a million different interviews.
And I wanted a way to break them out of that so that they could reflect in a new way
and giving them this randomness to the game.
This surprise element allows them to be more thoughtful, allows them to think more deeply.
And I think everybody gets more out of a conversation like that.
Okay. Well, in the spirit of the game, is there any question you want to ask me?
Ooh! I mean, all the questions.
Okay. So let's see. I actually didn't.
Where are my cards?
Hold on, I'm going to grab one.
Okay. So I'm actually doing something random instead of just picking one for you. Hold on.
These are three of the, like, warm-up kind of questions.
Okay.
So I'll let you pick, right? Like, here's one, two, or three.
Two.
Two!
Where would you go to feel safe as a kid?
Oh, my Titi's house. We would go visit and I just felt so at ease with her.
She would, me would like, she would babysit me while my parents went out and did stuff
and she would, like, paint my nails and we would watch Telet Novelas and she would cook
and my cousin Nancy would do my hair because she's a hairdresser.
Like, I was always, like, hysterically crying when we would leave her house
because I was like, I miss her already. I don't want to leave.
And probably one of the, you didn't think this was a deep question,
but probably one of the deep wounds of my life is that she died when I was about seven or eight.
Oh, sorry.
So I'll probably be missing her forever.
Yeah.
That was the first person, that was the first time you had suffered that kind of loss.
You're so young.
Two losses right around the same time, my uncle, Jimmy and my Titi Margot.
And sometimes when I want to feel safe now, I think of them.
I have my uncle's picture hanging right above my computer here and my Titi's picture in the other room near my bed.
And that's the beauty of the game, right?
I don't know where the questions are going to go. You don't know what it's going to bring up.
And now I'm thinking about those two people.
And the lovely gifts they gave you of just like that joy and safety.
What a lovely thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, it just shows that even a question that's like not the deepest on your deck could give you a really deep answer.
You don't know?
Yeah.
You don't know.
Well, thank you, Rachel. This has been so great. I've loved talking to you.
I love talking to you too. Thank you so much.
All right. Here's that episode of Wildcard.
A conversation between Rachel Martin and Easter Ray.
I love you.
I love you.
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I love you.
This election season you can expect to hear a lot of news.
Some of it meaningful, much of it not.
Give the up first podcast 15 minutes, sometimes little less,
and we'll help you sort it out.
What's going on around the world and at home?
Three stories, 15 minutes, up first every day.
Listen every morning, wherever you get your podcasts.
When voters talk during an election season, we listen.
We ask questions, we follow up, and we bring you along to hear what we learn.
We get closer to the issues and the people and your vote at the NPR elections.
Visit npr.org slash elections.
Hey, it's Rachel.
Just a heads up.
This episode contains some expertly deployed swearing.
Do you have a belief system that helps you make sense of the world?
Yes, that everything happens for a reason.
That gets me through so much that gets me through those stupid mistakes and bad decisions.
Hey, I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation.
Each week, my guest chooses questions at random.
Three cards in my hand.
You pick a card, one through three.
Three.
Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped their lives.
This week, comedian writer, producer, and actor Issa Rae is playing the game.
Oh my god, if that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have had the happiness that I have today.
So I came away from a conversation with Issa Rae and it was clear to me that she's genuinely happy and secure in who she is at the stage of the game.
Which is notable considering her breakout hit was a show on HBO called Insecure.
The show was based a lot on her own experiences as a young single black woman making her way through life in LA.
And Issa Rae does have a lot to feel good about right now.
She was in three Oscar-nominated films in 2023, including American Fiction and Barbie, where she was cast as president of Barbie World.
But Issa's amazing career is about way more than just acting.
She's basically a one woman media empire promoting and investing in people of color.
And she's doing it not just in the movies, but also in music and business.
Issa Rae clearly has big plans.
She also has this vibe and the smile and this external confidence that makes me believe she's going to do it all.
Issa Rae, I am so happy that you're here.
Thank you for doing this.
I'm so happy to be here.
So your projects are infused with like this very positive energy.
Well, thank you.
So it seems like you're walking through the world in a pretty good light.
I've always been optimistic and I think there's a little bit of delusion behind that.
And I think I've kept that delusion.
Because you have to be a little bit delusional to like dream and think you can achieve dreams.
And I think the contrary would make me sad.
And I don't like to live in sad places.
And I always also see the best in people until I don't.
Yeah, yeah. So you got a lot going on besides acting.
I read that you're partnering with HBO again on your own project that you're writing and creating.
Yeah, I'm in a deal with them.
They're my favorite collaborators.
I'm really excited about.
I'm excited about so much.
It feels different than anything that I've done before while still tackling things that deeply scare me.
And I love to write from a place of fear.
Whoa, why?
Because pre-therapy me, that was the only way to acknowledge what I was scared of and work through it.
And add humor to it, which I want to do always just to help get through it in so many ways.
And also even in making something you get to invite other people into your fears.
And anytime someone else has involved in a scary situation with you, it becomes less scary.
It's just a great way to work through it.
Okay, I feel like there's a lot on top there.
Maybe the game will bring it up for us.
Yes, let's get it.
So here's the game in front of me.
This is the deck of cards.
It's real.
On each of these cards is a question that I would love for you to answer.
And you are going to randomly choose which ones that I ask.
Okay, there are two rules.
Okay, you get one skip.
If you use your skip, that I'll just replace it with another one in the deck and the same deck.
And you get one flip.
So this is when you can put me on the spot and I'll answer it before you do.
You still got to answer.
Oh, you said it.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
We are breaking it up into rounds.
Okay, so the first one is memories.
The next one is insights or lessons that you're learning right now.
And the last one is beliefs.
How you see the world.
Okay.
And since this is a game, I know you're going to be into the fact that there is a prize at the end.
Oh, yes.
Oh, there is.
Oh, there is.
Make the game worth playing.
I know that.
Yes.
I'm into it now.
Okay, good.
So round one, memories.
Here we go.
There are three cards in my hand.
You pick a card one through three.
One, two, three.
Three.
Three.
Three.
What's the moment when you felt proud of yourself as a kid?
A moment when I felt proud of myself was definitely making my older brothers laugh.
My entire family is funny, but my older brothers in particular are so funny to me.
And they are closer than age.
So they have a rapport.
And I was the third sibling, the middle child, ultimately, that came six years later.
So where I'm there two years apart, me and my older brother are six years apart.
So I was like, the girl, the young one, and so making them laugh was like, am I part of the club now?
Were you?
And I wasn't.
It was very short-lived.
Because then it was like I tried too hard to continue it.
You know?
Yeah.
Nobody likes to try hard.
No, which is really difficult when you're a kid who wants to be accepted by your older brothers.
Did you have a particular brand of comedy at that age?
Was it physical comedy?
Was it puns?
Knock knock.
Good question.
Well, thank you, Lisa.
It was.
It was probably.
There was a physical element.
Yeah, because it was it was rooted in imitation.
And then storytelling, I like to tell stories, you know, things that happened.
And I think inevitably that turned into then my commentary on things that happened.
And you still sort of do that?
I do.
Look at that.
Okay, so we are going to the next question here.
Pick a card.
One, two, three.
One.
One.
When was a time in your childhood when you realized the adults in your life didn't have all the answers?
Didn't have all the answers.
I mean, the first thing that comes to mind, which I'm like, ugh, it's probably when my parents got divorced.
And I was like, what?
Because I didn't see it coming.
And I was like, yeah, I can't figure this out.
What's going on?
What happened?
Because they also initially, which they blamed it on cultural differences.
My dad is Sonny Glees, my mom is American.
And I was like, that's dumb.
You guys know each other's culture through.
Is that what they told you?
Yes, that's what they told.
That's what they told.
That's what they told the last three of us.
The younger siblings.
But I was at high school.
So I was like, smart enough to know, clearly not.
But smart enough to know there was more to it.
But to me, I just remember thinking like, they, this is something that,
this is something that can and should be fixed.
And they just don't know what they're doing.
But did it, because you were older, did you have a pretty good sense of feeling secure in your own life?
Or did it unmore you to some degree?
No, it unmore me.
What do you mean?
Yes.
I think to this day, I mean, it colors relationships.
It colors the way that you, it colors your perception of so much.
Because I'm like, again, I didn't see this coming.
So I was like, what else don't I see coming?
What else don't I know?
And what else have I translated wrong in my worldview?
So yeah, that's stuff that I'm still deciphering.
Like we're all, everybody's fine now.
You know, we're on a big family group chat.
There's too many messages coming through.
Yes, with my dad.
He sent like eight videos back to back yesterday.
But it was, it was just kind of unnerving.
And I felt like I love to write about relationships.
And I'm obsessed with relationships.
And I think because of that.
We've got to take a quick break, but we'll be back with Round 2 with Esa Rae.
And I was talking to my friend about this, actually.
We were just just weekends.
I don't know why we were just casually talking about death on a waiter or a winery.
We're moving on.
That was round one.
Round two.
All right.
Insights, stuff you're working on.
I can do this.
Yeah, you can.
Okay, we got three more cards.
One, two, three. Pick a card.
Two.
Oh, how comfortable are you with silence?
Generally, I love silence.
Though, though my, yeah, I like to be alone.
A lot of places.
Do you need that?
Yes.
Like I need, I need, I like actually need to get away from people and not talk.
But you seem like an extroverted human being.
Are you insane?
Thank you for that.
I am not, I am extroverted around, around my own confines.
I have to curate the ability to be an extrovert.
But no, generally I love being alone.
I like traveling alone.
I like eating alone.
I love going to the movies alone sometimes.
And I still love the people I love.
But it's necessary.
Though I will say my friend talks about she's going on a silent retreat.
I was like, oh, what is that?
And she was like, you can't have your device.
You can't read.
Yeah.
And that is terrifying to me.
I'm just like, that's terrifyingly boring.
Because I like my silence doing things.
And, you know, it is about being alone with your thoughts and seeing what comes out of it.
But yeah, I don't know that I could do that.
I could because I can do anything competitively.
I would win.
Yeah.
I would treat so hard.
I would shut the fuck up so fucking hard.
Excuse my cursing, by the way.
I'm sorry.
I will be better.
It's my New Year's resolution all the time.
And then I tell my kids that swearing is lazy.
And I try to come up with different words.
And then I can't.
It's okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Let's move to the next set of cards.
Dun-dun-dun.
We're still in insights.
In case you're playing along at home.
Uh, one, two, three.
Three.
What's a failure you still think about?
A failure I still think about.
I'm going to do one of those annoying things.
And say, I don't believe in failure unless you stop.
But there are.
Can I.
No, I'm like, I don't believe that's a real thing.
Yeah.
I'm like, I don't fail anything unless I say I'm not going to do this anymore.
So I, oh, okay.
And in that case, a failure I think about is.
There's a failure of education.
And I will say that.
And I'm thinking about my dad.
But like, I didn't take being in college seriously.
And I was like, I'm not going to be in college.
I'm not going to be in college.
I'm not going to be in college.
I'm not going to be in college.
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Okay, this is round three.
This is like big picture, like belief stuff.
These are three cards.
I'm going to go in the middle of this time.
Middle.
Middle.
Two.
I feel like you like the two.
I do.
Do you have a belief system that helps you make sense of the world?
Yes, that everything happens for a reason.
That gets me through so much.
That gets me through those stupid mistakes and bad decisions.
I'm a big fork in the road person.
That is also something that haunts me.
That's a fear that I was past the infinity of it all.
The eternity of it all is just like going down the wrong path.
And so I assuage those concerns and fears by saying like this all happens for a reason.
The reason could be, could be could benefit me or it'll benefit someone else.
If this thing that I really wanted didn't come to me, it was because it was supposed to go to this person.
And they're having a great time.
I'm so happy for them.
Like it just wasn't for me.
Can you give me an example of the fork in the road?
Is there a really profound one that you still think about that the other life?
The Paris trip.
The studying abroad overseas.
I was supposed to study abroad.
I was supposed to go to Paris and there was also like a guy there that I was talking to really seriously.
But I had this opportunity to submit.
What was it?
Oh, it was like a Sundance thing for a script that I written with a friend.
But I had to be in town if we won.
And we were semi-finalists.
If I went to Paris, I just wouldn't be able to get the opportunity to do this Sundance thing.
It was going to be lit.
My friends were studying abroad in Paris.
This guy was there.
And he was one of my first real loves.
And that would have been to stay.
It would have just been a different life path.
And we weren't finalists.
We wasted this trip and the memories and the chance that whatever that would have been.
That relationship, yes.
And then it was just back at school.
But I always wonder like, what would my life have been?
How many children would I have prematurely if I had taken that trip?
But there are so many other moments where it's just, oh my God, if that hadn't happened,
I wouldn't have had the happiness that I have today.
There are a couple things like that that sometimes keep me up at night.
Yeah.
You don't need me to tell you, but you weren't supposed to be with that guy.
I definitely wasn't supposed to be with that guy at all.
But I still think about it.
Yeah.
I think that's natural.
You're thinking about it right now.
I didn't know it wasn't supposed to be.
That wasn't supposed to be seen.
I am happily married.
I'm happy.
Okay.
So we are.
Yeah, we're in belief still.
One, two, three.
Three new cards.
Three.
I felt like anybody's listening.
It was like, just choose three.
You don't even have a chosen three.
Let's see how this goes.
How do you stay connected to people you've lost?
Thinking about them constantly.
Because thinking about them keeps them alive forever.
Sometimes talking to them.
And with one particular person, a family member,
we have my mom and I, and now the entire family,
we have determined that like whenever we see a hummingbird,
there's that person is there thinking of it.
And it always aligns the perfect times, honestly.
Anytime where I feel like I need her or she's missing something
that I know that she would have just been ecstatic to see
or just needed to be there for that hummingbird will be there.
Either for me or for my mom or for my brother or whatever the case is.
So whatever that is, whatever, whether it's true or not,
it's a real test.
And I think that's also a way of just preserving their memory
because it's this hard.
It's hard to accept that these people that we love
and who we feel are supposed to be here with us aren't.
And so we find ways to make sure that they are.
And I think I'm good about that and intentional about that.
I do that too.
Seagulls, isn't that weird?
My mom is like, they're like garbage eaters, but she loves them.
And it's so random.
But they come up to me saying like one will be where it's not so,
like there's no ocean around here.
What are you doing?
Yes.
You're last little Seagull.
That's why you need to be so easy.
Why are you making garbage like that?
Right.
Okay.
Last one.
Last one.
One, two, three.
Let's go through again.
I love this one and I'm so glad it came up.
Has your idea of what it means to be a good person changed?
Wow.
Yes, I know.
Yeah, over time it's just been about, I think, empathy and consideration.
That's what it's evolved into before it was like, just be kind.
That's the younger version of me.
Treat it like you want to be treated be kind.
But I think there's just, there's more to it than that.
And that's what's evolved.
It's also showing up in a real way.
But I think the core, I still think nothing makes me feel better than an active kindness from somebody random.
That just warms my spirit.
And it could be something as small as someone holding an elevator open.
And you saying thank you them being like, you're so welcome.
Have a great day.
Like something like that.
I don't think about that for hours.
I just be like, they did not even have to do that.
And they meant that.
And that's those moments of just connection and people just seeing you and considering you that that makes me feel special.
And I think it goes a long way.
It's like your reminder that people want to be good.
And we need those reminders so much.
Yeah.
I do to, I like, I get weepy sometimes.
Yeah, what are you talking about person held the door for you?
No, I know.
They did it.
It was the way they did it.
You had to be there.
Or like the parking you did it was just really like when the asked how I was doing today.
Yeah, you can tell that he really meant it.
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, thank you so much.
I needed you to ask me that you have no idea.
Yep.
Yes, we have pets.
That's literally it.
It's seeing each other.
You won.
Yes, because I didn't skip, right?
That's why I won.
Boom.
Oh my god, you're hilarious.
You get a prize.
It's a trip in our memory time machine.
Delulu, delulu.
You're like, I thought I was done right till I gave you all my special moments.
No, no, he's the right.
No, you're not.
We're taking a trip in the memory time machine to one moment in your life where you wouldn't
change anything about it.
Not one thing, but you would just like to hang out there a little bit longer.
Thanksgiving after the food is done.
You're hanging around the kitchen.
All five of us.
Five siblings, mom, memories, laughs, playing this game, the Don't laugh and smile game.
My mom invented this game to keep us at the dinner table and not watch TV.
And it was called the Don't laugh and smile game.
And it was basically, we all spent the dinner trying to make each other laugh.
Whoever laughs first is out.
So it was all of us trying to hold our laughter in.
And so it just involves literally that trying to make each other laugh, bringing up old memories,
things that were embarrassing for someone else is just in some cases a roasting.
But it's just that I could hang out at that table forever because it's just bonding.
And the love we have for each other.
And I just took back to your fear knowing that this will end.
Like my grandmother just passed and her brother now, my great uncle is the last one out of all his siblings.
And to see him, you know, sob at the funeral.
And he's like the funny guy.
But to see him, he's the youngest.
And I started thinking about, oh my god, this is going to happen.
I tell my brother and sister, I was like, this is going to be a swan day.
Well, I've never thought about like losing you guys.
And so, take me to that table.
I could stay there for a long time.
I can be reincarnated to that table.
Forever feels okay at that table.
Mm-hmm.
That was a nice prize.
Thank you for that.
Good.
Thank you for that.
He's right.
It's been such a pleasure.
Thank you so much, lady.
Likewise, thank you.
You're the game master now.
Next week on Wild Card, we hear from actor and first time director Chris Pine.
He tells me why making his new movie helped him give up on seeking perfection.
I had joy, experience joy, it still gives me joy.
That's it.
That's enough.
There is no perfect.
That is perfect.
Today's episode was produced by Cher Vincent and Lee Hale,
and edited by Dave Blanchard, with help from Lauren Gonzalez.
It was fact-checked by Mary Glendinning and mastered by Gilly Moon.
Wild Card's executive producer is Beth Donovan.
Our theme music is by Romteen or Bluey.
In case you want to reach out to us, our email is wildcard at npr.org.
We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week.
See you then.
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