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Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone.
And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
Laura, thanks for joining us today.
Oh my goodness, thank you for having me.
What a delight that I get to have another conversation with you.
Yes, I think we're actually just using these podcasts as excuses to chat at this point.
I mean, honestly, I'm okay with that.
I have no shame in just calling out that I have built something purely on my desire to have interesting conversations.
And so probably have you in some ways.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So how about we start off by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Awesome.
Well, I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
I've been in private practice for...
I always say 10 years, but I forget that every year I should say an additional year.
So it's about 12 years at this point, but I've been working for 15.
And I've really, in so many ways, built my practice off of the idea of curiosity.
And I've worked significantly with individuals who have eating disorders and then athletes.
Some of those athletes have eating disorders.
Some of them don't.
But that has really been the bulk of the work that I've done.
And then I've also in my practice, specifically as I entered into the world of eating disorders, I worked significantly with parents because, as many could probably imagine, much of my clients were adolescents.
So I would run parent workshops, parent groups, to really help them understand what are maybe some better ways of navigating parenting just from a foundational perspective, not even when you necessarily have a child with a mental illness.
So That's been the bulk of my work in private practice.
And then I've joined with an organization called Spartan Race and done some consulting with them and then some consulting with some other organizations, like the Unbeatable Mind with Mark Devine, really working on fleshing out some of the mindset performance issues that individuals might have in wanting to increase their athletic performance or their athletic endurance.
So it's That's been really exciting and new for me and has sort of thrown me into a whole new arena which I've loved.
That's fantastic.
And congratulations and kudos for everything you've accomplished.
And thank you for the good work you're doing because it's really, really important.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, it's amazing.
And it's an incredible time to be in the mental health space, specifically because I think that we're becoming much more curious about what works and what doesn't.
And allowing ourselves to really kind of flex muscles outside of the standard on the couch therapy, which I think is really, really important.
I think, for example, podcasts can be an incredible resource for individuals who are struggling with mental health issues.
The truth is that standard talk therapy doesn't work for everybody.
And so I love the mental health space in really flexing different muscles and getting curious about what could work and maybe what's not.
This is fantastic.
Well, great.
Well, let's jump into our topics for today.
Speaking of curiosity.
So the three things that we're going to talk about are first, why is it important to be internally curious?
Second, how does internal curiosity help us to be better negotiators?
And then lastly, how can we maximize curiosity during the conversation?
So let's start off with number one.
When we say internal curiosity, what do we mean by that?
So when I talk about curiosity, and specifically internal curiosity, I'm talking about us being an inquiry around how we think, how we feel and how we behave.
And so when I, for example, am becoming internally curious, it's about you know what am I thinking at any given moment.
What are the thought patterns that I'm, what are the thought patterns that I use that work and what are the ones that I use that don't?
When I'm getting curious about my internal feelings, I'm wondering, what am I feeling right now?
So often, for example, we have standard ways of answering that.
Fine and okay, by the way, are not emotions, but people, like, how are you feeling?
I'm okay.
I have no idea what that means.
You know okay, could mean I'm angry and furious, or it could mean I'm sad, or it could mean I'm feeling shame.
So internal curiosity for me around emotions is really being able to accurately identify and get curious about what emotion it is that we're feeling, or emotions, because we could also, of course, have more than one.
And then around how I'm behaving, right?
So when I'm curious about behaviors that I'm engaging in, I'm wondering are they in alignment with my values?
Is this the way that I want to behave?
Is my choice right now being informed by something that happened in my past or something that's going on for me in the present?
So for me, it's really about being in inquiry.
And I believe that when we are in inquiry with ourselves, we are investing in ourselves.
We are creating a vehicle that allows for a greater return on investment.
Because when we get curious, we actually make better choices and we are more productive and we allow ourselves greater creativity.
So I believe that internal curiosity really fuels a better way of living in so many words.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And one of the things I like to do is play devil's advocate here.
So I'll play the role of the skeptic.
I love that.
You're like my oldest child.
Exactly.
So what about those people out there who say well, all of this psychological woo woo is a waste of time?
You know what the right thing to do is just do the thing and then get it done.
I love that you've said that, because first I've gotten that question not only from you, but from clients who say well, why does it matter?
Why does it matter if what I'm thinking right now is grounded in something that happened when I was 5, 15 or 25?
I'm 45 years old right now.
The choice in front of me is A or B or C. What do I need right now in order to make that?
And I guess my response would be Listen, we're complex human beings and we are complicated and it's not always easy and people don't always know.
And in fact there's so much that goes on at a psychological level that we are not conscious of that.
If we can pause for a minute and get curious, maybe we can become a little bit more conscious of which can actually allow us to make maybe just an incrementally better choice than what we might have made if we weren't as curious or conscious.
For me, I guess you know I always like to think of you know, do I want to be like two times tougher, or do I want to be 10 to 20 to 30 to 40 to 50 times tougher?
Right.
And I am always looking to elevate and level up.
And so I want to go more beyond, you know, what's just adequate right now or what's good enough.
I want to excel and really make the very best choices for myself that I can in any given moment.
And, for me, having that self-awareness and self-understanding and introspection aids me in order to do that.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And it reminds me, I just bought a new car and it requires a different gasoline, so it's premium.
But just over the course of my entire life, I've been putting in, you know, the regular gas.
And so I accidentally started putting in regular gas in the car.
So half of the tank was full of regular.
And then I said, oh, no, I need to put in the right gasoline.
And Laura, I could tell.
I could tell very clearly that there was something not right here.
Right.
That's that's amazing.
That's a great metaphor.
Exactly.
Because what's inside will have an impact on what's outside.
And so somebody might look at the car and just say, hey, it's a nice car.
Just drive it further.
Drive it faster.
And I say, well, there's a problem on the side here.
We have to address it.
And that's essentially what we're talking about here.
But we won't know about what's going on in the inside if we don't take the time to go through this process of internal curiosity.
That's right.
And our internal journey shapes our external experience.
And so to understand how we are operating in our external experience and how we are contributing to our external experience, we have to, from my perspective, get curious about our internal journey and know more about that.
Absolutely.
And what's interesting, too, let's go back to the person who might be skeptical of all of this.
Yeah, just do what you need to do.
All right.
Let's say you are able to push through and then do what you need to do.
And then you're able to do it actually at a decently high level.
But did you enjoy that?
How was that experience?
Right.
Because I can't just focus on the outcome.
We have to think about the process and how we felt about it too, because if you present somebody with the option hey, you could be successful and miserable versus hey, you can be successful and feel good about yourself,
The the obvious answer is feel good about yourself.
Right.
But a lot of times we're not willing to do the internal work in order to get there.
That's right.
And I think what's really important to me sometimes too, is we're always talking about well, what's your next step?
What are you going to do next?
What's your next best choice going to be?
And I like to weave in the idea of how do you want to feel next?
You know, like in your next step, how do you want to feel?
Because it's not just about the doing part of that.
I mean, we like to believe that we are doing and thinking beings.
And we like to kind of think of this feeling being as something that like yeah, maybe we experience, because it's nostalgic when we hold up the idea of having a loved one, or maybe if we lose a parent and we experience grief.
But like all these other feelings, I'll keep them at bay for now until I'm ready to address them.
But the truth is that we are walking around feeling beings all the time.
And so if we can have a greater understanding of where those feelings are coming from and integrate them with our thoughts and our behaviors, that integration to me means more integrity.
It means more thoughtful and meaningful choices that allow us to move forward with our values intact.
Absolutely.
And when your values and what you believe in and when those things are in line with what you're actually doing, then you can navigate the world with a lot less cognitive dissonance.
Exactly.
There's not that resistance there.
So that makes a lot of sense.
And now let's transition into the next part here, because everybody says okay Kwame, thank you for the self-help.
All right.
Well, what's the point of this?
This is a negotiation podcast.
So let's actually talk about internal curiosity and how it can help us to be better negotiators.
Yeah.
So I think that this part is really important because from my perspective, you know, I like to think of everything that we've gone through up until this point, everything that we thought, felt behaved related, all of our relationships kind of find themselves in a metaphorical backpack on our back.
And when we move into any experience, any next challenge, any next job interview, any next difficult conversation with somebody that's in front of us, we bring with us that backpack.
And if we understand what's in the backpack, then we can actually utilize things that are in the backpack to make us better negotiators or to allow us to be more present in conversation.
And I'll give you an example of that.
So let's say, for example, in my previous job I had a boss that never gave me positive feedback ever.
And was not only like devoid, of you know, positive feedback, but also layered on criticism and layered it on pretty heavily.
That job's over.
I'm in a new job.
I have a new boss.
And I come into her office and our first performance review and she starts in.
But the language that she uses to transition some of her sentences is the exact same language that my previous boss used.
Now my brain, just because of neuroscience, is going to naturally associate uh-oh, like there's that word.
What's coming next is criticism.
Uh-oh, there's that word, what's coming next is criticism.
And so I might literally shut down.
Like I might begin to turn the volume down on her and put up my walls, because I have had this experience before.
And so I believe this is what's coming.
But she might be sitting there giving me nothing but praise and or constructive criticism.
That's really useful for me and important for me to hear.
But if I don't understand that my response to what she's saying is based on a previous experience that I had with a previous boss, then I'm not going to be open to receiving that.
And I'm not going to even necessarily hear what she has to say.
For me, understanding and getting internally curious about the way that I'm thinking, feeling and behaving at any given moment allows me to show up and be present and to understand If the things in my backpack right now are maybe preventing me from being a good negotiator in that moment, or if they are helping me be a good negotiator in that moment.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And what I like about this is that we can look at it from the lens of our own experience and our own perspective goals in these negotiations, but also from the experience of somebody else on the other side, because we've probably had situations where we said something that was benign and then somebody took it the completely wrong way.
And you're saying, what in the world just happened?
That's right.
I was trying to be nice.
What is wrong with you?
And so we can recognize how relationships start to break down because of the baggage that you described.
Right.
That's an excellent point, because I think the truth is, is that curiosity is contagious.
And so the more curious that we can also be internally with ourselves.
That provides sort of a vehicle for us to be curious, just like you said, about how our engagement with somebody else might be impacting them.
And we might even be able to get curious about them too.
Like I wonder if one of the reasons why they're shutting down right now is because maybe they had a previous boss who was XYZ or whatever it is.
You know, so I think that sort of dual relationship is really important.
And the way that the arrow can kind of go both ways is critical to think about.
Absolutely.
And that's something that I found very helpful in as a mediator and in my negotiations, too.
I remember in the book called The Charisma Myth, one of the things that she said you could do is essentially psychologically, give somebody a pass for bad behavior.
Not in that you're not holding people accountable in the real world, but in your head, just so you don't get all caught up in it.
You can make up an excuse for them.
And I thought it was really interesting.
So I tried it one time.
And so, let's say, somebody is blowing up in a mediation, acting improperly, accusing me of things, accusing the other side of things.
And then I say to myself, I'm getting I'm recognizing I'm starting to get upset.
Then I say, you know what?
The dog might have died this morning.
You know, they might have lost their job, something like that.
They might have broken up with a loved one.
And so I don't know if that's true, but it helps me to depersonalize a personal attack.
And so I can say, no, that wasn't about me.
And so now I can get to the point where I don't need to make up that excuse.
I can just say, yeah, that probably wasn't about me.
And it helps me to keep my head in the game during a difficult conversation.
Yeah, I think that's essential.
You know, when you talk about that, it really makes me think of in so many ways, some of the work that I do with my clients.
A lot of it is really about discovery.
It's about kind of understanding where and when is my client most willing to get curious with me?
And where and when are they going to shut down real quick?
And it was really interesting, for example, in sessions with adolescents, because when I brought parents in for some kind of parent education, I would begin to understand maybe why an adolescent might have a difficult time with me when I'm talking a certain way, because oh, mom does the same thing.
And so her experience of me in that moment is more like a mom than maybe it is like a therapist.
So I think it's so important, this curiosity piece, for us to just consider how it might serve the conversation.
And I think sometimes we worry that curiosity again is sort of this like psychobabble nonsense that doesn't really get us very far.
But in fact I think the toughest individuals and the ones that really hone in their skill set are the most curious individuals.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And now during the conversation, because when we're talking about this, a lot of it sounds like pre-work.
Before the conversation
Is it possible to be curious internally during a conversation?
I think so, very much so.
I mean for me, for example, one of the things that I like to talk about is really understanding what's showing us for us by tuning into our own body, right.
And so by considering our own body language.
So, for example, if somebody says something and you immediately back up, I'm backing up now, but if you immediately back up in your chair, what is that about in that moment?
And can you quickly check in with yourself and say I just literally created six more inches of distance from this person in this moment?
What does that say?
Am I uncomfortable with something they said and I want to create space?
Am I feeling like maybe attacked and I'm trying to get away?
What is it that's happening right now for me that is showing up physically in this manifestation?
So I always think, I always love this idea of body language and understanding where our body language is.
Or, for example, if you are with somebody in conversation and they scratch their nose and then you scratch your nose, are you then maybe in a greater opportunity for empathy in that moment?
Because you are literally mimicking their behavior, not consciously, but you notice that you're actually doing it.
You know.
So I think if we can tune in and become curious and just ask ourselves short little bits of question listen, it doesn't need to be a 20 minute internal therapy session here, but just inquire sometimes about what's going on, I think can really serve the conversation.
Absolutely.
It's incredibly powerful.
And I do the same thing.
A lot of times, usually it's blocking behavior.
So it's blocking and then leading back a little bit.
And I say, the simple question I ask myself is, what was that?
Like, hey Kwame, I saw you do that.
What was that?
Or maybe it was a response that came just a little bit too.
It was a little bit too short, just too sharp.
And I'm like, oh, you might've caused some damage.
What was that?
I'm like, okay, well, yeah, that was something.
And I think that's one of the big, big things we have to recognize.
It's something.
And it's really funny because it's almost like our subconscious is signaling to ourselves constantly that there's something either amiss, or maybe something that we like, or whatever it is.
But there are signals.
But since we're not very curious a lot of times, at least not naturally curious about our internal states, we often miss it.
So it's important for us to start to generate and cultivate this new cognitive habit.
Yeah.
And I think and I'm going to go back to also what you brought up in the first question, which is, you know, does is it both ways too?
And I think too, we can get really curious about how somebody else is responding physically.
I mean I, when I'm in sessions with clients, will observe it out loud, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend in a conversation with someone.
But, For example, if the client grabs a blanket and covers themselves after we've had a difficult conversation, I'll point out to them you know, I noticed you covered yourself with that blanket.
Do you feel like you need some kind of like hug right now?
Right.
Because they're sort of metaphorically getting it from the blanket.
But I think that we can also do that when we are in conversation and in negotiation with another individual.
If they, for example, begin to back off, they cross their arms, they maybe even turn their shoulder a little bit, as if they're turning away from you.
How can you begin to weave that into your own knowledge and understanding of maybe, what it is that they need right then, in order to be more in the arena with you, because they're getting out of the arena, right?
So what is it that you might be able to do?
Do you soften your tone?
Do you pause for a minute?
What are the things that you can do to maybe allow them to come back into the conversation?
You use something that I love so much, which is how do you call people in rather than call people out?
And I think that we can begin to call people in more to conversation when we are in tune and curious about when are they shutting down?
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Absolutely.
And this is great.
I think I need to have an episode just fully on body language at some point.
It's kind of ridiculous.
We're at 215 plus episodes.
I haven't done it yet.
But for anybody out there who wants to learn more about body language, check out the book What Every Body Is Thinking About by Joe Navarro, FBI agent.
Whenever counterintelligence people read books about persuasion or reading people, read that book.
Yeah, exactly.
It's very good.
So with the time we have left, let's cover the last part, when we're talking about curiosity during the conversation, more specifically externally, because we've been focusing a lot on the internal curiosity of What are some unique ways that we can mobilize curiosity externally.
Well, I think language is key.
I think language is really, really important.
For example, right now, it feels like people are really hot.
It's an election year and there's a lot going on in our country.
And so oftentimes people are starting out conversations with things like how could you?
Which immediately puts the other individual in a defensive position because it's accusatory.
Right.
And so even just a tweak in language of I'm wondering what makes you right.
Or I'm wondering why.
And why is even a word that sometimes I hesitate to use?
Because why also sometimes in in initially like, makes you feel like a child.
You know, when someone says like, well, why'd you do that?
That's what teachers and parents say to us all the time, right?
So I think, just tweaking our language a little bit and understanding that too, you know.
Another thing that I think is really important right now is that there's this idea of well, I just don't understand.
Well, okay, then let's get curious about it.
You know, how come, gosh, I'm so curious about that.
Right.
Like that's even to me like the tone that we use.
And I think even using that word curiosity in conversation can really create more of a collaboration than a debate.
Right.
Because you're calling again, to use your language, calling somebody in rather than calling somebody out, which I think is so essential, because you know, we know that the defensiveness also increases our experience of shame, because it feels like we've done something wrong.
So the language around how could you vote for that person, right?
Immediately is, oh my gosh, am I doing something wrong?
Let me defend my choice rather than let me get curious about it.
Absolutely.
I think those are great examples.
And going back to the point that you made where sometimes people say, I just don't get it.
Right.
Well, then just say, help me to understand.
Exactly.
A really easy way to do it.
And I honestly think, Laura, that curiosity is almost like a magic word.
Because it doesn't offend people too much.
I can't think of one time in a difficult conversation I've been in or somebody else who's been talking about negotiation for a while, when they use the term curious, people don't say you're curious.
I am offended.
I've never heard that.
And so it really softens the approach, because if you just say out of curiosity, or I'm curious, usually people receive that really well.
And I think if, especially if you're having trouble empathizing with somebody in the moment, just using those softeners can do wonders when it comes to getting people to engage more wholeheartedly in the conversation.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And in my experience as a psychologist it's interesting because for the first few years in my work you know I really wanted, I wanted to do therapy really well.
You know, I wanted to make sure that I was pulling out all of the psychological constructs and the verbiage and all the vernacular that made me sound really smart and, you know, made me present all these ideas to the client who, oh my gosh, had maybe never thought about that before.
And I realized, quite frankly, that it was horrible.
It went nowhere.
It was awful.
And it wasn't until I began to and I remember actually the minute that I was in a supervision, like a supervisory role, and I was sitting with another clinician in a therapy room.
They were doing therapy with the parents, and I was observing.
And I remember she said, I would like us to all get curious.
And I like it was like mind blowing to me because I'd never heard a therapist use that word before.
And I was like, I'm going to start doing that.
And the minute I started doing it and changing my language with my clients and allowing myself to be more in collaboration with them, rather than teach them, it just shifted the work substantially, substantially.
And I've never turned back because it's just worked so well.
And clients are so much more responsive to it.
And similarly when I've done consulting work and gone in to C-suites and had conversations.
It never goes well when I try and teach them something.
You know, they all have egos too.
And so it's really about, I want to get curious what's working, what's not.
You know, I want to be in collaboration with you.
Can we get curious together about the this.
So I agree.
I think that word is a magic word.
Yeah.
And that's a really interesting approach too.
And I'm thinking about some of the conversations that I've had.
And I think actually saying that explicitly, let's both collaboratively get curious.
Because the thing about curiosity is you can't say, yeah, that guy, he's so arrogant.
He's always curious.
Arrogant people aren't curious.
Exactly, that's right yeah, and so you're assuming a, a stance of humility, that's endearing, that's inviting, and so you're not just saying hey, i'm asking questions, you're answering it um, so you're the only person getting vulnerable.
But when you're saying i'm, let's get curious together, you're saying hey, i'm going to be curious too, i'm going to be humble and vulnerable, and i'm inviting you to do the same thing, And it'll just lower the barriers in the conversation too.
Yeah.
And I think the other thing that it does too is it gives us permission to not have an answer.
You know it gives us permission to not end the conversation with either I've changed our mind or you've changed mine.
You know, it just gives us an opportunity to sort of like explore the uncertain, even if we're relatively certain in our ideas.
It's sort of like we can hang up that jacket for a little bit and just enjoy the party.
So I think that part is really important too, because I think sometimes people And I'm sure you know this better than anybody that we enter into conversation with a specific goal in mind, of that ending a certain way.
And how do we allow ourselves and give ourselves permission, both externally and internally, to not always end it that way?
Yes.
And Laura, this is perfect timing because-
Yesterday I was in a Q&A session on how to have difficult conversations about race.
So that's something that I've started to do this year, because with the American Negotiation Institute, you know, our motto is the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations.
And so right now the difficult conversations are in race politics, not just business and law, where I feel very comfortable talking.
And so I started off the QA session and I said hey listen, I want everybody to feel comfortable here.
This is a safe space.
And I'll be honest, I don't know all the answers here.
You're probably going to ask something at some point where I don't know.
And that's okay, too.
So don't feel bad.
You can't hurt my feelings.
And let's just assume the best of intentions.
And then, Of course, as the conversation went on, a person asked a fantastic question and I answered it for a little bit.
But then I said, you know what?
I think I've reached the extent of my knowledge on this question.
And I know it's insufficient as as it relates to an answer for you.
So I'm curious, too.
I need to go and I need to learn a little bit more, and then maybe I can come back and we can continue the conversation.
But it is so liberating in a difficult conversation and to be able to say, I don't know.
That's a good question.
I'm curious about that, too.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and I think, you know, it shows our humanity.
And I think in my work with clients, when I've said to clients because they'll look at me desperate, wanting me to fix them, wanting me to give them that magic golden ticket out of their depression anxiety addiction, bad relationship,
And when I say, I don't know, but maybe we could get curious about it.
It's like, okay, we don't always have to know.
So I think it allows us to really take take that turn of stepping into maybe each other's shoes, the shoes of common humanity, of uncertainty and unknowing.
Exactly.
Well, this has been great.
A lot of fun.
And I wish we could just keep on going.
So that means we're definitely going to have you back on the show.
But before you go, two things.
Can you give a challenge for the listeners?
And can you also tell the listeners a little bit more about what you do and where they can reach you?
Yeah, absolutely.
So the first one is actually the easiest one, which is a challenge for the listeners.
And what I challenge each listener to do today is to pick one thing to get curious about.
What are you thinking?
How are you feeling?
Or how are you behaving?
And just get curious about it.
Just get curious about, you know, what am I thinking today?
What are the thoughts that are popping up for me right now?
What did I think about this podcast episode?
Did I like it?
Did I not like it, right?
Or how are you feeling?
And try and use a word that you're not used to using.
And by the way, okay and fine are not feelings, right?
And then also how in terms of your behavior, like what are you curious about there?
Are you curious about why you're picking certain choices, or are your behaviors in alignment with your value system, right?
So that's my challenge.
Just get curious today about one of those things either the way you're thinking, how you're feeling or how you're behaving.
And where you can find me.
It's always the more difficult one, because sometimes I forget where people can find me.
So I am certainly on Instagram, at Dr. Laura Pence.
You can also go to my website, drlarapence.com.
You can sign up for my newsletter, where I unravel something each week that to me, doesn't really make a lot of sense.
And so let's get curious about it together.
I've also recently come out with a product called Lifebox.
It's spelled L-I-G-H-F-B-O-X, which is a box of 180 questions and prompts that spark curiosity.
So you can go to lifebox.com and check that out as well.
Very cool.
That's awesome.
Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
We really appreciate it.
That was the first part of today's masterclass.
Up.
Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.
Let's keep it rolling.
Daniel, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
Glad to be here.
Yeah, it's my pleasure to have you.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, so I'm Daniel, the founder of The Courage Collective.
The Courage Collective is a DE&I consultancy.
Really quick context on my background.
So I come from a pretty untraditional path.
I got my start in nonprofits.
Then I went up to Gonzaga and went to grad school, studied organizational leadership and then moved to Nashville where I took a job in venture capital, which is hilarious, because I had never even heard of venture capital before I got there.
And so they hired me.
I was head of people and talent, had a quick stint in tech and then went on to start the Curse Collective.
I think largely because you know I wasn't seeing the kinds of conversations I wanted to have around equity and inclusion and felt like there was a meaningful opportunity for us to create opportunities.
A new angle.
So took the leap and been doing that.
And then I also have a company called Boundless, which is focused on creating access for black and brown folk.
It's a really important work.
And I think what's interesting about hearing your background is that you came from the business world like a general business role and then you transitioned here.
You're using negotiation and conflict resolution in both of those capacities, but now you're still using it in DEI.
And so, when you think about that type of work as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion, What do those types of negotiations look for you day to day?
Yeah, I mean, I think, first and foremost, it's when we're identifying clients that we want to work with.
That's where we start.
And I think about negotiation as relates to are we aligned at a values level?
Are we looking for the same thing out of this work?
Right.
I think one of the things that we saw in the wake of the murder of George Floyd is a lot of companies sprung into more of a reactionary mode and they were looking for a quick fix or a check the box type of action item.
And for me personally, that's just not the type of work that I'm interested in.
It comes to negotiation.
I'm having a conversation with the prospective client.
And very quickly, I'm like, are we aligned on why we're doing this first and foremost?
Because if you're looking for a check the box, we're probably not the best vendor for you.
We are interested in meaningful impact and change.
And so that's probably the first negotiation we have.
And then you go into the negotiation of the scope of work.
What are we trying to achieve?
Are we aligned on kind of the outcomes?
And then go from there.
So that's where I would say we start.
Oh, this is good.
This is great.
All right.
Check this out.
So essentially what I'm hearing is that when you approach a negotiation with a client to become a vendor, you're trying to find fit. first and so you're not just looking at the the deal terms you're saying all right partner wise are we a fit and i think that's a bit of a different perspective because i think a lot of times people get into that um feeling of need this deal escalation oh there's a prospective deal right here so my deal my job is to close the deal that's how i determine a win but it seems like you're evaluating the quality of the deal differently so What are you looking for?
Yeah, to me, maybe I would reframe instead of fit and say alignment.
Right.
So like it's alignment at a values level.
And I think what that means for me is like I want to make sure that our why is connected.
And part of the reason that's important is because if we are trying to pursue specific goals, like the essence of DEI, work is usually alignment.
It's involved, it's human-centered, it takes a lot of work, takes resources, etc.
For example, if the starting point is the business case for DEI, which is like if you do this, it'll improve your business results.
I'm like, I don't know that that's the starting that's not the starting point for me personally.
Right.
And so if that is their primary why for getting into the work and they start to do, you know, like their training, and they do a survey but they're not seeing results in the near term, then they're going to say I'm not going to invest in this any longer because it's not successful.
Whereas for me, I'm looking at transformation and broader impact.
And I'm like OK, if we're actually looking at transformation, that's going to take a little bit more time.
It's going to take reframing the way that we approach some of these things.
One unconscious bias training isn't going to get us there.
We have to really be invested for the long game.
So that's where I start.
And fundamentally, when people come in, they just want to tick the box.
We're not going to have the same measures of success, which is why starting at values alignment is most important to me.
From there it's like okay, we can expand, we can explore different perspectives and points of view.
But if we're not looking at success in the same way as determined by our alignment at a values level, it's a lose-lose for both of us.
That makes a lot of sense.
I think that's really important, right?
Because again, we have to start at that values alignment.
And, of course, we can see how that manifest itself in a meaningful way with the work that you all do.
But I think all of us when we think about the deals that we're trying to make day to day in our personal lives and our professional lives too, there needs to be values alignment.
Because even if you get the numbers right, if the values are not aligned, then the deal is just going to crumble.
And it's just a question of now or later happens.
So we need to get that in line.
And so for you?
Let's say, you run into a situation where you have a prospective client and you recognize that they are approaching this in a more transactional type of way business case, nothing else.
And there's clear misalignment.
Do you try to persuade them to approach it differently?
Or are you just trying to get that information to recognize probably not a fit?
I'm going to go a different way.
I think it depends on the context, right?
And it depends on who we're relating to.
I would say sometimes there are people who are maybe at the highest level of the organization.
Maybe you're talking to the chief people officer or the CEO, who actually have a little bit more, let's say, authority to implement change within the culture.
So when I'm interacting with someone at that level, Part of my MO is like how can I introduce a new way of thinking about this work, whether or not they hire us as a vendor?
I want to introduce, hey, the old way didn't get us to what we wanted.
And so, if you think about it this way, this could actually drive more meaningful human centered results.
So that is kind of the angle that I approach, depending on the level.
Now, if I'm talking to someone who you know maybe is, let's say, a middle level manager, and they don't have as much deciding power,
I want them to feel heard and seen and empowered.
But ultimately they're not necessarily going to be the ones who make the final decision and can shift the culture.
So I think it's usually I want to assess and understand who has decision making power.
What then becomes my responsibility in this interaction?
So that's usually how I think about it.
I don't like to persuade like I don't want to tell you why. equity is important.
Like that's not the business that I'm in.
I'm not trying to convince you as to why you should foster an environment of belonging.
If that's the conversation we're having, we just aren't starting at the same point, right?
So that's a whole other thing.
And I know that some consultants and clients and whatever, like they like that.
They like coming in and being like, no, you need to prioritize this.
And I'm like, If we can't agree fundamentally that it's a priority, probably not the best person, because I'm interested in impact and transformation, not like the very basic.
We can't we don't know where to start.
And so help us.
I want to think about a big picture and think about the impact that we want to have.
So that's usually how I approach it.
And hopefully I'm talking to someone who can help us drive that.
Absolutely.
And that makes a lot of sense.
And it's really helpful for you and your team to have that clarity as well, because I could see, for instance, let's say you bring somebody else on and then they say they like to use their persuasion skills.
Oh, these people aren't approaching it the way that we do it.
So I'm going to persuade them.
Right.
But I think it's really important for you to have that clarity for yourself and other people.
So everybody knows how and when to use those persuasive skills.
Because I've done the same thing with my team.
If there's not values alignment, then for the sake of my team and their mental health and their well-being, then there are certain people we don't work with.
And I give them the ability to say no.
And so it's important to remember negotiations, the art of deal discovery, not deal making.
We just shouldn't feel forced to make deals that should have never gone through.
Yeah, I love that point.
I think about the idea that who you have to be, or who you have to be to get the deal, is often who you have to be to keep it.
So if you show up inauthentically to get the deal, then you're having to sustain this level of inauthenticity to keep the customer happy.
And you're the one who's suffering on the inside.
Right.
And so for me, I'm like, no, I'm going to show up authentically off jump.
And if we work, we work.
And if we don't, that's OK, too.
There's probably someone out there who can support you better.
So that's just one of the I guess values that I have personally.
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All right, let's talk about something that's actually a negotiation skill.
Taking care of yourself before you show up to negotiate with anybody else.
Because if you're tired, stressed, and running on fumes, you're going to make worse decisions.
Period.
And that's why I'm a huge fan of Cozy Earth.
Cozy Earth's whole mission is to elevate the everyday with obsessive detail and better materials.
So you can feel it immediately.
Their bamboo pajama set that's made from viscose from bamboo is unbelievably soft.
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That thing is dangerous because once you wrap up in it, you're not getting anything done.
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And here's the best part.
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Cozy Earth gives you a 100 night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty, so they really stand behind the quality.
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Go to CozyEarth.com and use my code, Kwame, for up to 20% off.
And if you get a post-purchase survey, make sure to let them know that you heard about Cozy Earth right here.
Oh, this is good.
So Daniel, this gives me an opportunity to bring back something I haven't done in years.
You just reminded me.
A five-star point.
And so every once in a while, somebody says something on a podcast.
I'm like, that's the one.
That's the point.
So listeners, if you like that point, make sure to give us a five-star review, because I don't ask for them enough.
So please.
If you like this episode, give us a five-star review.
So Daniel, that's my five-star point.
That's really, really important.
And I think this is something that we need to consider not just in the business world, but also in our personal lives.
I've never heard it articulated in that way, but it makes a lot of sense.
I think back to some of the episodes we had on people pleasing.
Sometimes you have that people pleaser inside of you and you keep on making these concessions.
Nobody knows you're making those concessions.
And then you have to in order to maintain the relationship at the same quality.
You keep on making those concessions and you're killing a part of yourself, sacrificing yourself in order to make somebody else happy.
They don't realize that you're sacrificing your authenticity for their benefit.
It leads to you kind of like snapping later on because you're just so mad all the time.
And people are like, I didn't even know you were upset.
Why didn't you just tell me?
Right.
And you're so right, because we have to be authentic in our approach and recognize that we want that authenticity to exist and be at the forefront of our interactions with the other side throughout the duration of the relationship.
And if we're making those types of sacrifices, especially in our personal lives, to maintain friends relationships, those type of things just recognize there is a price to pay.
At some point, it will break down.
Yeah, I think you lose your authenticity.
And then I think the path forward becomes like either you end up resenting the thing that you compromise to get, or you feel trapped in it, right.
And so for me, I'm like I would rather show up authentically from the very beginning, and And again, if it works and it evolves amazing.
And if it doesn't, that's OK, too.
Right.
Like I don't have to like what we have and what we do and even who we are.
Maybe there's a level to which it's available to everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's for everyone.
And that's OK.
So I think, transcending scarcity, not feeling like oh, this is the only deal we're ever going to get.
Like I would rather do, you know, 10 deals that I really really feel aligned with and excited about than do 100 that require some level of compromise to maintain because ultimately that's going to erode something internally.
And that's not for me.
It's not worth it.
Right.
I think yeah, there's no dollar amount that is worth your level of authenticity and inner peace and alignment.
So that's kind of the point of view I come at this with.
Absolutely.
I think that's great.
And one of the things that you talked about is your human-centered approach.
And this goes back to what we were talking about before, when we were kind of game planning for this episode.
You talked about the need to humanize interactions versus thinking about it in terms of transactions.
Can you go a bit deeper in what you mean there?
Yeah, for sure.
I think about just how so many of our interactions these days are pretty transactional, right?
It's focused on an exchange.
What are you doing for me versus what am I getting to you? are getting from you.
And we've missed the art of connecting with the human experience, right?
So even just meeting you today, I'm like there's a unique collection of experiences you've had that no one else in the world has had.
That inherently is beautiful, right?
It's worth creating space for.
It's worth creating space to see and engage.
But if I'm only coming to this for what I can get from you, I totally miss the opportunity for meaningful connection that could be profound and transformational.
So when we look at this through the context of DEI work, there's a quote.
I love that Dr Crystal Jones says
She says there's a big difference between the ideas.
All are welcome here and this was created with you in mind.
The latter of which is a much more human-centered approach.
Who is coming to our organizations?
And how can we uniquely design our culture with their experience in mind as opposed to you?
Know, this is just transactional.
You get a check.
Here are the things that I need you to do.
Inherently, there is a level that work is transactional.
But what would happen if we infuse attention for the human experience into that equation?
I think it would be much more meaningful.
Right.
And so yeah, I think for me practically like I want to create space for people to be people and engage them at that human level.
And my hunch is it will create much more meaningful and substantive things than if I approach relationships only transactionally right.
So that's kind of the approach that I apply both to my personal life and to work.
This is great.
And I think about quotables.
You quoted somebody, but I was saying Daniel, like the quote you said before, that's the one I want to focus on.
That's a unique collection of experiences that only you have.
And I think that's a beautiful way of looking at it because you're right.
It's like every single interaction, every single person that you have is unique.
They have a combination of life experiences that make them different from everybody else else in the world.
And that's a fascinating type of thing to cherish the opportunity to interact with this person, because you're never going to see this combination again.
But then they're ever evolving.
Right.
So I think that's really fascinating.
Now, we can understand just semantically the words that you said.
OK, I'm going to have a human centered approach.
I'm going to humanize this interaction.
I'm going to focus on this person.
Now, people can understand that.
But how do we operationalize that during a conversation?
Yeah, for me, it's curiosity and empathy.
I know you spoke about curiosity in your TED Talk.
That's a core value of mine, right?
So I think about how can I show up with curiosity and invite the person to engage holistically, show me who they are right.
So I think curiosity and empathy are two fundamental things.
Part of how that looks for me when we think about operationalizing I'm very curious.
So I ask a lot of questions.
Who are you?
What are you bringing to this moment?
How are you feeling?
Like, how do you see the world?
Those types of things.
And not to determine whether I agree or disagree, right?
Like that's where it gets into transactional and binary.
I'm just asking because I'm curious to know about your unique collection of experiences, right?
So that's where I start.
I think empathy.
For me it's the idea of creating capacity to understand and hold space for someone's unique experience as well, which is a pretty profound and meaningful thing once you experience it, and not rushing to judgment right.
Like I think about how each person has the capacity for both great and terrible things, right?
And so I want to create space for empathy, to understand the human experiences and what were the moments that brought you to where you are, how you behave, et cetera.
So that's how I operationalize it leading with curiosity, creating space for whatever they share, to just understand and to know people better.
This is great.
And I'm thinking about what you said about curiosity, where you said you're going to invite them to engage.
You're not forcing them to engage or pressuring them or extracting information.
No, you're inviting them to engage because you genuinely care.
You genuinely want to understand it.
That's important because a lot of times people can be curious about But that curiosity can really be more a tool to either set somebody up or to really just further our own objectives.
And so it's really important to not only be curious, but frame your curiosity in a way that makes the person feel psychologically safe.
That's right.
I'm sure you've probably run into some people who are skeptical where you ask a question.
They're like, why does Daniel want to know how I'm doing?
Why does he want to know how I see the world?
There's probably a wrong answer here, right?
So, at the beginning of those interactions, when you're getting somebody to trust you and buy into your process of the way that you communicate with this human-centered approach, what are some things you do to help them to feel more comfortable engaging?
Yeah, it's a good question.
I mean, I think that we...
One of the things I go back to often is this idea that people know where they feel seen valued heard accepted, free.
Like people know where they can be their authentic self, right?
And so I think, first of all, people aren't used to just being asked questions with curiosity about themselves.
It's like a lost art.
Even for me, like someone who's super curious, it's interesting how sometimes people just don't even know how to reciprocate asking you a question about you.
So I think that in and of itself is a lost art and kind of a revelation for people when you just invite them to share about who you are or who they are.
So I think that's point number one.
And I think, as far as getting over skepticism, I think it's listening intently, so actively, and not listening to respond necessarily, but listening to understand.
So I'm listening to engage and understand.
And usually that's evidenced by potentially asking a follow-up question.
Oh, this is what I heard you say.
Tell me more about this.
Oh, that's really cool.
I had that experience as well.
I'd love to hear how that impacted you, right?
Not a kind of coldest sack question where we just come to the end.
Oh, that's it.
Like, thank you for sharing.
Turn around and go back, right?
Like, how do we invite something more expansive, right?
That's the thing that I'm curious about.
And again, I think not everyone which is okay feels inclined to share parts or aspects of who they are.
But I do love the idea of creating the opportunity to invite people to engage and even meet themselves right.
I think there's something about meeting and connecting at a human level.
Me meeting you introduces me to myself even more.
And so there's something really powerful about that.
I think about how I've heard it said you can only meet other people at the level at which you met yourself.
Right.
And so I think about, I want to continue to create those spaces where I can meet myself and meet others in a meaningful way.
This is good.
There are so many quotables here.
You're so right.
It's a really fascinating way of thinking about it.
One of the things that I've started to do when I'm asking people questions is that I'm trying to essentially not act as Kwame the negotiator, but try to be Kwame their internal voice.
Because a lot of times what ends up happening is I can recognize that maybe, especially in the context that you're working in sometimes people simply haven't explored some of these concepts.
And so I'll ask questions that they might have been better served asking themselves, doing a little bit of introspection, but I'm going to be compassionate and empathetic and ask them, in order mainly, to get them to go to a place that they've never been.
So they can learn a bit more about themselves and the way they think about it, as they're sharing it with me.
Yeah, super powerful, because then you get to operate as a bit of a mirror, right?
You're holding up a mirror for them to see themselves and inviting them to see themselves and maybe process something that either they didn't have the invitation to the capacity for, no one had invited them into.
So I think it's really powerful.
I like that approach.
Absolutely.
Man, this is good.
This is good.
So we're coming up on time and I want to make sure we keep this tight.
But at the same time I also want to make sure I give you an opportunity to talk about your two companies, The Courage Collective and Boundless.
So can you let listeners know about how to get in touch with you and how they could work with you?
Yeah, for sure.
So The Courage Collective, we do diversity, equity and inclusion consulting and training.
And so We've been fortunate enough to work with Fortune 500s all the way down to 10 person startups and anything in between.
Like I said, it's most important that we're aligned on the why and the values level.
But our work, we like to take what we would call a strategic, holistic and human centered approach to diversity, equity and inclusion work.
What that means for us is when I look at the state of the industry, So many people are taking either very reactive approaches or very acute approaches.
Right.
So you can't solve systemic problems with acute interventions.
You have to think about it holistically.
Right.
And so, for us, what that means is looking at the entirety of the organization, looking at the full employee journey and thinking about how does DEI show up before someone starts at your company, while they're at your company and once they leave your company?
And what is the role of leaders and managers in making sure that people feel a sense of belonging and operate in an equitable environment?
Right,
So those are just the high-level themes that we look at.
We usually start with listening and discovery, then we dive into strategy, et cetera.
And then we do learning and development as well, and not the off-the-shelf, unconscious bias trainings, just because I want to do things that I think are meaningful and that actually work.
So for me, that's how I think about it.
I have a brilliant team that I get to work with, and they're also some of my really good friends.
And so I feel grateful for that.
Really fantastic folks.
And so how I can get in touch with us, go to our website, thecouragecollective.co.
You can find us on LinkedIn.
So those are probably the two primary places.
As far as Boundless goes, yeah, Boundless is a newer project that I've been working on.
And I think the impetus for that one.
I have been one of the few, or one of the only, in most spaces in my professional career.
And so the way I got into venture capital at the beginning I felt motivated and inspired by another black man who was the co-founder of Jumpstart Foundry at the time where I was working.
And I was like, OK, if he can find his way into that space, maybe I can as well.
And so I know there's a level to which representation really matters, and seeing people who share the same identities in certain ways as you, it's just empowering and impactful.
And so, with Boundless, I'm trying to create points of access for black and brown folks in industries that they haven't historically been represented.
So marketing advertising, PR et cetera, consulting and then tech, all very homogenous, trying to think about ways that we can help bridge people who are well-deserving of opportunities with those opportunities.
So those are my two companies.
Boundless, you can find it at boundlessfellows.co.
This is awesome.
Yes, I appreciate having you on.
And it is clear, my friend, that you are a fellow child of immigrants.
So many things on your plate.
But I can't expect it.
This is great.
Well, thanks for the important work that you do.
And thanks for joining us today.
This was really awesome.
Kwame, thanks for having me.
Appreciate it.
You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next, a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge, so you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in.
Joe, thanks for joining us today.
It's my pleasure.
I've waited because I know you stalk me online, so I've waited a long time for this.
And this is going to be fun.
Agreed.
Agreed.
So let's start off by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Yeah.
Thank you.
So for 25 years, I worked for the FBI, mostly working counterintelligence.
So I was a spy catcher.
And then 15 of those years I spent in this very small unit, this elite unit within the FBI, called the Behavioral Program.
And...
And that was created to take a look at spies and see how we can get into their heads and recruit them and, you know, negotiate with them.
And and and.
After I retired from the FBI, I started writing books, and never intended for that to happen.
And and now 14 books later, I'm here with you, buddy.
I'm here with you.
I love it.
And everybody, I have to say, my favorite book from Joe is the What Everybody Is Thinking.
And I know the listeners who have been listening for a while.
They say yes Kwame, we know you talk about it.
All the time.
And I was just talking to Joe and saying I was reviewing my notes and it's 24 pages of notes, size 11, font and single space.
So I highly recommend checking out anything that is published by this man.
And you have a new book coming out, too.
So can you tell us about that, too?
Yeah, thanks.
So you know, over the years people kept asking me you know, you write about human behavior, you write about body language and nonverbal communications.
Why don't you write something that brings it all together?
And and so I did.
So I took a year and a half off to write the book.
Be Exceptional is the encapsulation of about 35 years of study of what really sets individuals apart.
And obviously that is their behavior, how they do things.
And so it's a good way to take a look at the science that's out there and the artistry of how we can differentiate ourselves, how we can take control of ourselves and use the strategies but, in particular, the behaviors that truly exceptional people all share.
And that's something that I've been studying for a long time.
So I'm excited for the book to come out.
Absolutely.
Me too.
And, I think, something that you'll see for the listeners.
I'm going to constantly pull this back to negotiation.
But what's going to happen is that you're going to see the commonalities of what it takes to be exceptional in whatever realm you happen to be in.
And I think that's what's so exciting about this approach.
Yeah, I think you're exactly right, because I think someone said that if you're human, you're negotiating all the time.
And I think you're right.
I think no day goes by that we are not parsing something in some way, trying to gain or not necessarily an advantage, but to to to work something out.
And so much of that has to do with communication.
So much of that has to do.
You know, we forget good manners is a nonverbal.
That talking to someone with kindness is a nonverbal.
It's you know, it's not the words, it's it's the the manner.
And so I think a lot of negotiation that we do day in, day out.
And, you know, shall I tell them that story?
Yes, please do.
So I can't say the country, but people ask me all the time.
Well, you're teaching.
You come out and you teach negotiations and so forth, and your approach is a little different.
I say, it's no different than what you do every day.
Only the stakes are a little different.
So one of the things that I was tasked to do when I was in the FBI watch, which was to target individuals who were intelligence officers for other countries, who were operating here what the public calls spies and to try and recruit them so that they would come and work for us.
And so a lot of times I would run into these individuals here and there and sort of make myself known and so forth, but never really approached them directly, because sometimes they were being followed or they themselves might take some action against me.
So sometimes we would try and pick out where would be a great place to run into these individuals, And sometimes it was in what we call denied areas of the world.
And those were areas where you knew that if the minute you land, you may be under surveillance, and so forth.
So we would find places to, you know, run into these individuals.
Now, you know, you and I have talked about negotiations and planning and everything that, the preparation and so forth.
But sometimes, you know, in one case, I only had seven minutes.
I had seven minutes between the minute, you know, the moment that this, this individual's plane, landed in a country I won't say, and his connecting flight.
And so I had to figure out, you know, through observation, which is what really a lot of the book is about, is what are his tendencies?
How does he walk, you know?
Would it be best to just confront him directly, you know, by approaching him from the front or, as I finally did, by walking up beside him and sort of looking over at him and smiling.
And, you know, he had this look of surprise, but it's like, I can't even believe you're here, dude.
You know, it's like, just keep walking.
Don't say any words.
And meanwhile, I'm just walking like I'm another passenger.
And therein begins the negotiations.
You know, it was one of these things where I didn't have to say who I was.
He knew at that moment, finally, who I was.
And, you know, convince him, negotiate that I want to meet with you if you will but tell me.
You know, where that might be possible.
And the fact that he walked alongside of me, the fact that we never changed the pace, that he didn't confront me or anything.
And and sure enough, the next time he he we had that opportunity, he did it in a rather clear way.
He knew I was nearby.
And rather than take the gum that he was chewing and throwing it in the garbage can, he took the gum and he wrapped it around a piece of paper and he laid it on the edge of the garbage bin.
And and that set the the meeting for the eventual cooperation with me.
And you know, I look at back at that and I think of you know, the companies that I've helped with in negotiations and the planning, the articulation, the craftsmanship of well, who's going to approach?
Who will enter the room first?
Who will be speaking?
When the lead negotiator is speaking, what is everybody else doing?
Because, you know, are you just sitting there?
You know, are you going to use your hands to gesture?
Are you going to nod in agreement or are you going to sit directly in front of the other person in a stair contest, which I don't recommend?
And so a lot of, a lot of similarities.
Obviously, you know we're dealing with nation state actors, but the craftsmanship that you use is the same.
This is fantastic.
And again, what you've done is you've taken what we know about psychology, human interaction and persuasion and you've taken it to the next level by understanding human behavior and in a way that puts you in a position where you can accomplish your goal, whatever the goal happens to be in that situation.
And that's why it's so transferable, because you're using these skills in the highest of stakes interactions counterintelligence spies, double agents and those type of things.
But the same psychology applies at the boardroom as well in these business negotiations.
Yeah, the same psychology.
You know, keep in mind, a lot of times in negotiations you're dealing with corporations and they have their own sort of mentality or history.
But then you have the history or what I call the luggage of individuals.
You know I was in negotiations down in Broward County where these folks the county and another entity Every three years they're in negotiations and they have so much luggage.
And this is where unpacking that and understanding that we have to deal with that emotional luggage and we have to park it.
The concept of put the ego aside.
Well, that's all said and good, but it's not that easy that you have to understand the, the personalities, and then how to best approach each other, and sometimes having the right person make the right presentation, um is is going to be the surest winner rather than uh, you know, having somebody else doing it.
So there's a lot that goes into it.
Obviously, the the more important the negotiation, the higher the stakes, the more effort that you can put into it.
Absolutely.
And Joe, in your opinion, what are some of the biggest psychological mistakes that people make during negotiation?
Oh, I love that question.
Thank you.
I think the biggest mistake is thinking that little things don't matter.
If I could say hello, McFly.
These, every little thing is important, from the moment you walk in, how you set up the meeting, how you greet the staff.
You know saying hello to the security guards, the receptionist, everything else.
Being attentive to to to others in the smallest of ways, being polite, shaking hands, being mindful not to elevate emotions.
Something so simple.
You know, you and I were talking recently about that.
We can increase face time with each other, if we but would just angle each other a little bit.
Because to look at each other straight on is, in effect, very antagonizing.
And the minute that we can just sort of, even if it's just rotating a little in the chair, we can just soften the mood, turn yielding, making it an art form that you know, I'm going to let you speak, and I'm going to let you speak fully and completely.
And then I hopefully you will yield and then it'll be my turn.
And these little things that, you know, I mean, I can tell you all the horror stories of people in negotiation and somebody is, you know, working the phone or somebody is picking their ear and you say, no, I can't believe I'm I'm seeing this.
And and that's because nobody has told them that everything in the theater of negotiations matters everything.
And from facial reactions, right?
So we often talk about facial reactions and somebody will throw out a number and immediately you'll see the wrinkled nose and the shaking head.
And right away.
Now you've got a deal not just with a possibility of a no, but you're dealing with someone who is demonstrating this, which makes it even more difficult because now you have to overcome this display and so forth.
So it's I would say it's that recognition that the the small things don't matter.
I think most people in negotiations work the facts and work the.
But, you know, I know in the FBI we would literally rehearse.
You know how we would walk in, who would walk in first, where we would sit, who looks at whom?
How are things transacted?
Who will say what words?
All because you know, in the theater of the interview or the theater of negotiations, it's the small things that really matter.
Yeah.
You're absolutely right.
And I think that's one of the most interesting things about what you bring to the table with your expertise, to really hammering home that reality.
And I think about the one of the classic sayings from chess is every move has a purpose.
You don't just make moves for the sake of moving the pieces.
There's always a reason behind it.
Absolutely.
For instance, when do we call recess?
When do we ask for a break?
When do we stop sitting down?
I remember I was giving a lecture up north at a really prestigious university and they were shocked when I said well, why don't we just get up from the chair?
And it's like, what?
Yeah.
Why are we why do we have to remain sitting?
Just get up from the chair, put the chair in front of you.
You still got the conference room there and decide that you want to stand and and and talk about what you're passionate about.
Why are you talking passionately about something sitting down, you know?
And it's how we orchestrate that you know the use of the hands to explain, to envelop To, to demark that we're talking about one thing and that we have studied it carefully and dynamically and that we have made a decision of how we're going to proceed.
Just those gestures potentiate the message.
Can you imagine if I had just said that with my hands on my lap?
It would lose its meaning.
And yet we know that when you use gestures and you combine it with, for instance, a certain cadence of speech, that people just can't, can't stop.
But, but listening to you and, and that's a great way to reveal your commitment to, to what you're saying
So everybody, now you have a reason to follow our YouTube page so you can see Joe explaining with these gestures, because it this is going to.
Maybe it doesn't sound silly.
Maybe this is the point, but it was almost hypnotic.
Right.
I was so in I was so almost invested in what it is that you were saying.
It certainly did have a much greater impact when you started to focus on the way that you were gesticulating.
Yeah, exactly.
And one of the things that I found with exceptional speakers was their use of their hands.
I look at Colin Powell, who is really one of the great speakers out there.
He's a great thinker, a thought leader, and obviously a great general and secretary of state.
And you look at how he used gestures to to really powerfully message.
And throughout history, we have seen great examples of that.
And I find too many executives know the numbers but don't know how to communicate that information powerfully.
The fact that I can tell you that, look, this This is our best offer.
Right.
So now you're up against a wall and my my thumbs are in a gravity defying position.
This is it.
There's there's no more movement here.
I am not vacillating.
I, you know, I'm not in any way going to change my mind.
That's it.
That puts an end to the back and forth.
You've reached that point where say, guys, ladies and gentlemen, this is it.
This is it.
And that message of visual as well as vocal becomes much more powerful.
And they have to react to it.
And it makes so much sense because when you think about it, Everything as communication.
We have our voice as communication, our demeanor as communication, our tone, our intonation, our body language, what we're wearing.
All of those things are communicating a message.
Absolutely.
The clothing that we wear.
Like you said, the gestures, something so simple.
As you know how I reach for something right.
So the person that's jittery versus the person that reaches for it smoothly.
The higher we are, the more competent and confident we are in an organization, the smoother our gestures are.
The lower we are, the more tentative we are, the more jittery the gesture.
So we would literally rehearse.
All right.
So now we've been at this for two and a half hours.
I'm going to reach for that glass of water and it's going to be smooth and I'm going to drink it.
Think of how many people have been criticized because they've been seen on the media where they go to grab water and it's shaking.
And, you know, I'm not going to name names, but I mean, I've seen Silicon Valley people.
I've seen, you know, heads of state doing this, not realizing that that tell that behavior is is unsettling.
And as I said in the theater of negotiation, everything matters.
Everything matters.
You know what I started thinking, Joe, is I'm thinking about humans as animals.
And I think it becomes more interesting, even more interesting if you think about us like animals.
So we would watch Animal Planet, National Geographic, those type of things.
And we're looking at the mannerisms of the animals.
And this means that this means this.
This is a dominance display.
And then if you think about us as we are animals, biologically speaking.
And so we're going to be responding to the same cues that the animals out in the jungle would be as well.
On point. on point.
We are just another species.
We are primates, right?
And we respond to the alphas.
We respond to the hierarchy displays.
You know, this is why we dress up.
This is why, instead of having a big pen in our pockets, we have the Mont Blanc or whatever, because we're sensitive to these things, but we're also sensitive to the gestures that come with higher status, So the higher status individual can engage in more eye contact.
I have seen negotiators walk into a room and they're so daunted by it all that all they do is look straight ahead and never looking around, not realizing that they're limiting their ability to project confidence because they don't take the moment to look around and look at everybody present.
And in essence, as we learned in law enforcement, you know, I'm not scared of this room.
I am confident in myself.
And so just eye gaze behavior.
You know the turn yielding that I spoke of even.
For instance, instead of saying no Kwame, go ahead saying Kwame.
Go ahead.
Let's hear what you have to say.
Whoa, I am now taking charge without you knowing that I'm taking charge by doing these gestures that are consistent with turn yielding.
And yet, all of a sudden, I'm the invited guest and now I am capitalizing on those powerful behaviors.
We are, as you said, we are just another species, and we are sensitive to the smallest of things.
Yeah.
This is brilliant.
And so one of the questions that I've gotten before, when I was doing trainings, a young woman said well, I'm a lawyer and I'm in these difficult conversations, these negotiations, all the time.
And I'm usually the youngest in the room, one of the few women in the room, and I am five feet tall.
And so I'm significantly smaller, physically smaller than the other people in the room.
And like you said, Joe, everything has an impact.
And so people are going to perceive that size difference.
So what can somebody who is smaller do to make it so that the discrepancy in size doesn't create some kind of power dynamic that doesn't work for them?
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that question.
This is one that I'm often asked.
And, you know, one of the greatest example that I have is Mary Erdos, which is who is with J.P.
Morgan.
You know, when you listen to Mary Erdos, you know, you think she's six five.
Well, you know, she's probably only about five, three, five, four. but it's how she carries herself.
And so what I tell people is yes, there is a height dividend, just as there's a beauty dividend, but we can compensate.
And the first thing we can do is compensate by walking in with that presence where nothing and no one is off limits for you to look at, that you talk with confidence, but with a Lord voice.
Right.
So this is, you know, in the military, they I know the Marines do this.
They send you out into the field and they say find your military.
You know your, your Marine voice and you know your that gravelly sort of voice.
And we had in law enforcement.
I had to learn that, that lower voice, because when we're nervous, you know I don't want people to hear me say stop, you're under arrest.
Right.
That that's not going to turn out well for anybody.
But you learn.
You learn to when you are under stress, that you're going to lower the voice and you say stop right there.
Do not move.
And this is one of the things that that I coach often is working on that voice that you know.
Obviously you're not going to.
You know sound, you know as deep as maybe a man's.
But lowering the voice, people will listen, speaking, especially for women, speaking in cadence.
In other words, saying, I have a proposal.
And that proposal is that we take into account everything that we've talked about thus far today, but also take into account everything from yesterday.
The fact that you can talk in cadence means you're owning it.
This is temporal.
This is temporal dominance.
It's like, I'm not going to hurry for you.
I'm not going to go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just for you.
There's going to be temporal dominance, and I'm going to own this minute.
How you sit.
You know, a lot of women tend to steeple and do hand gestures very low, elevating those and then making sure that nothing is said without there being some gestures involved.
And what will happen is you will be perceived.
If we then and we've done this if we then went throughout the room and said how tall do you think she is?
They're going to put five inches on you because it's a matter of perceptions.
It's a matter of how you are perceived.
And one last thing.
And that is increase the vocabulary.
Make sure that you have a more, not a dominant vocabulary, but a more robust vocabulary.
Because one of the things that happens, our species, we humans, respond to whoever has that better vocabulary.
And we will always be that way.
And whether we're listening to a beautiful poet, whether we're listening to Churchill, the eloquence, the sheer beauty of Martin Luther King, it's that command of words immediately elevates you.
And uh, you know as, as wittgenstein said, the the limits of my language are the limits of my world, and so you are self-limiting if you have a limited vocabulary.
So i'm increasing the vocabulary so that um uh, you project that that that's, that would that's.
You know, that's pretty much what, what i teach, Then we can change.
We can we can change the perceptions.
And, you know, as you know, Kwame, a lot of this stuff.
It's not about spending money on doing anything.
It's about changing the behaviors.
It's about changing what we do in that theater of the of the interview.
You know, you're up against somebody that's just being hard headed and so forth.
Why are we still sitting here if this ball is not moving in any direction?
Stand up, move around the room, change the dynamic. to see if that helps to move the ball along.
I love this.
And Joe, I have to let you know you are the first person to quote Ludwig Wittgenstein on the podcast.
So I appreciate that.
My favorite quote from Wittgenstein is, if a lion could speak, you couldn't understand him.
And it makes me think about some of the cultural differences that people can have in these difficult conversations and then what we could possibly do to overcome that and create connection in spite of those differences.
Oh, very different when it comes to culture.
You know, and in America, we have cultures within cultures within cultures.
You can.
You can go from Manhattan to Brooklyn and have They're using different words, different concepts.
You go to the Midwest and the West and so forth.
I think this is and I appreciate this, because this is one of the things that's covered in the book is that we have to listen to the words that are used, that we have to understand those words.
That if I you know Joe Navarro, who's now almost 70, you know, for me I grew up using the word.
You know it's a problem.
You know, now people say, well, it's an issue.
No, it's a problem.
And the fact that you are not receptive to my concept of of of this.
We have to take each other into account and say where's this?
You know, I mean I have negotiated with people in France, in Romania, in the Middle East, in Latin America and so forth.
And we have to have that understanding.
And the best thing I have found is, you know, Can you explain to me what you mean by this?
Because I really want to understand where you're coming from.
And just, I love to front my ignorance.
I won't hesitate to let you know just, you know, how clever I can be.
But I don't mind fronting my ignorance and saying, gosh, you know, I've never heard of that.
What do you mean?
Oh, I see.
So...
And then you, and what happens is when we, when we get others to explain to us things, they're becoming our cooperators.
You're in essence getting them to cooperate with you.
It's kind of like, as you know, like Benjamin Franklin asking his enemies to do him a favor.
And then they became best friends.
And there's something about the psychology of it where I don't mind saying you know, when you talk about equities, what do you mean?
What do you mean by equities?
Is it just what you own or the family, you know, get them to explain things.
And I think I think, yeah, we do.
Well, I think we have two responsibilities.
One is to really understand what the other person is saying.
You know, when they say I hate this.
Let's unpack that.
And the second one is that we have to come across at times as very neutral, so that we are perceived as someone who is at least reasonable and not obdurate and not contentious.
So that's one of our responsibilities also.
This is great.
This is really great.
And One of the things I want to take this all the way back to the beginning.
This was something that you said about the book would be exceptional.
And you're trying to figure out what sets people apart.
And you settled on of all of the things under the sun, you settled on behaviors, powerful behaviors.
Powerful behaviors, that in studying individuals over you know four decades because I was in this behavioral program in the FBI, that that it all happened.
It all came down to behaviors.
You know, these individuals had mastery over their own behaviors.
They weren't allowing things to get to them.
They weren't blowing up. and throwing a fit and so forth.
Their behaviors were within that realm that others could respect.
That doesn't mean they don't have a bad day, but that means that overwhelmingly, they had mastery over themselves, that they were able to create an apprenticeship program, no matter how much adversity they faced.
They created their own apprenticeship program, whether it was going to the library and reading books or calling people up and talking to them.
People talk about, oh, find your bliss.
Well, when Joseph Campbell, the great mythologist, talked in The Power of Myth, when he talked about finding your bliss,
He wasn't saying like sit in a chair and it's going to come to you.
He was talking about creating an apprenticeship. where you could achieve that.
And that takes all the behaviors, focus, dedication, you know, the will and so forth.
And then the other behaviors had to do with this other area which is, you know, in negotiations.
You're doing this the whole time, which is observing.
Observing what are the needs, wants, and desires, but also observing What are their preferences?
Right.
You have a negotiations and you know, all of a sudden you show up.
You know, with donuts and coffee and you know they only drink diet.
You know diet foods and tea.
I've seen people just roll their eyes like, you know, I'm on a diet, buddy.
You know, I don't want I don't want to eat this.
I mean, they literally look at you like, is this it?
You know, so and can we observe concerns and fears?
You know, I was just interviewed yesterday for a magazine article and they said you know, now that we're coming back to to, a lot of us are coming back to work.
I said, watch out this concept of being able to perceive our preferences.
You're going to have people that are going to be uncomfortable standing too close.
You're going to have people that are going to be uncomfortable shaking hands too soon.
You're going to have people uncomfortable walking.
Because, you know, somebody's wearing a mask and somebody isn't.
And we have to take responsibility for that and say look, if success is measured by our ability to communicate with each other, we've got to create an environment where we have an appreciation for preferences.
Because frankly, you know, I don't want somebody standing too close to me.
Not right now.
And we have to be able to perceive that.
And that requires observations.
And then the one thing that no negotiator will tell you is what they fear.
And yet that's In counterintelligence, that's always what we were looking for.
What does this person fear?
And when you can identify what that fear is, then you can appreciate somebody's final price point.
You can appreciate somebody's decision schema and and so forth.
And you know, the other part of of of of what exceptional people had was this ability to to communicate.
And it, you know, they didn't have to be Churchill and they didn't have to be Lincoln.
It was just you know.
Do they have the ability to comfort and and put an arm around you and show you love?
There's a, there's a, a crossing guard, not three blocks from here.
And every day those kids go by and give this lady a hug.
Yeah.
You're telling me that that isn't more powerful than words?
Those kids live for that.
And so we have to realize that words can only do so much, that we as a species, for at least 300 or 400000 years, communicated non-verbally.
We had to communicate silently because we were surrounded by predators.
And so we had to move through the savannas, through the jungles quietly, But we had to do it effectively.
And that's why nonverbals still dominate.
That's why they are so important even in this day and age.
And then, of course, exceptional people, they act immediately, but also pro-socially.
And you don't realize the effect of that is.
But imagine you go to a business and you got to go through security.
Then you got to go through receptionist.
Then you go through the personal assistant.
And finally, you get into the individual's office.
You want to see.
You want to change things around.
Meet the person that's important to you at at at at the curbside.
If you're a negotiator and you're waiting for them to arrive, right?
What message are you setting?
I meet them at the curbside and now we're putting coins in that bank. that says, you know what?
We have an opposite take.
We have responsibilities that may not come together, but I value you.
And that's why I'm waiting out here, waiting for you.
And that changes the negotiations.
What are they going to talk about the break?
God, that Joe Navarro, he was waiting for us down here.
That's really nice.
Nobody else does that.
These small things, you know.
Believe me in counterintelligence.
We use these techniques all the time because you've got no other leverage than to use these little powerful things that your grandmother or maybe a grandfather you know threw a ball at you or gave you a piece of candy.
And that created this, this next area, which is the final area of the book, which is the power of creating psychological comfort.
Now, when you have psychological comfort, you can achieve anything, because humans gravitate towards psychological comfort.
And whoever provides that is going to win.
They're going to win because our species dislikes the noise, dislikes the animosity, dislikes the tension.
And so we gravitate towards that person that provides it, whether or not we realize it or not.
We like that in others and those that provided.
And that's what exceptional people taught me that it's not about how much you earn or anything like that.
It's about how you treat others.
Joe, this is fantastic.
Like I told you before, I've already pre-ordered the book.
I'm so excited for this.
And so, before you go, when we think about the people in the audience, they're having these difficult conversations with their friends, their colleagues, their family members.
They're negotiating high stakes deals.
What is one thing that you would suggest that they do to start becoming exceptional at their craft?
Obviously, there's thousands of things that I could say, but if there's one powerful thing, and it's a simple nonverbal, is just simply sit next to them.
Tilt your head, can't your head slightly, which communicates?
I may have an agenda, but I'm being receptive to you and query do a benign query.
Tell me about what you're thinking.
What drove you to this?
What is behind this?
Try to understand without imposing what you have to say.
One of the things that I learned in dealing with other nation state actors is that they had reason to hate us.
They had reason to not cooperate with us.
But when I gave them the opportunity to vent or to let me understand their position and not immediately interpose myself, but to give it time, I found that that was a powerful elixir.
And of all the things that I could talk about, I think this is one where you know we talk about active listening.
Active listening that yeah, that's fine.
I'm talking about benign curiosity.
That benign curiosity is infinitely more powerful and it and it's and its effects are so dramatically more um more um demonstrable, because benign curiosity is something that we rarely get and we treasure that.
Wow.
I've never heard it described as benign curiosity.
I think it's brilliant in its simplicity.
And for you, when you think about the term benign curiosity, how are you conceptualizing that?
Well, something so simple as I get into a foreign city and, you know, I get in a cab or whatever.
And and, you know, I may ask the person, you know, what what is that on the.
Oh, that's that's really cool.
I may ask them, I was born overseas.
So to me, nobody in Florida was born, it comes from Florida.
Everybody in Florida is from somewhere else.
So I'm always asking folks, where's your family from?
And I always get a positive response.
Oh, really?
Lebanese.
I love Lebanese food.
Best candy in the world.
Best candy in the world.
And, you know, and they just, you know, and open up.
But in negotiations, benign curiosity is a demonstrable attempt on my part to understand their position, to understand this is how we value it.
Where most people make the mistake is they immediately begin to challenge.
No, I don't want to challenge.
That will come.
I want them to voice how they got to this place, And in doing so they may also reveal the weaknesses in their argument.
Well, we consulted experts and we think that this is where it's the value point, where there's a lot to impact, there.
It's like, well, I mean, that's fantastic.
So you've been looking at this for years, right?
And you've been doing...
The more interested you are in their process, what you're building.
In psychology we call this transference and counter transference.
We're at a deeper level.
We're establishing a connection because I'm not challenging anything they say.
I just want to understand everything. as best I can, where they're coming from.
Now, obviously, some people are going to be stoic and they're not going to reveal very much.
And sometimes you know some negotiations, you know they're transactional and it's like okay, you know the car dealer, he's going to hit me up for 1200, because that's what this model car is on average.
They're going to hit you up for.
And that doesn't mean I'm not going to try and negotiate.
But I, you know, I want to try to explore as much as I can about them.
I want to explore the words that they use.
You know, you said that you were troubled by this What do you what did you mean by troubled by it?
Is it is it like an external?
Is it internal?
Is it, you know, is it something else?
So I use that information to to dig deeper.
And the more they talk.
The greater the connection that there is, as long as and this is critical you remain neutral in its benign curiosity.
And that's different than active listening.
Benign curiosity is taxing.
Well, you'll appreciate this because I know you read a lot of my stuff.
I had a spy case one time where I had been interviewing this guy for hours.
And when we got up at the break, my partner looks at my back and she says, did you spill a drink?
And I go, why?
She says, you have sweat from your belt line all the way to your shoulders.
And I said, that's sweat that that I earned my money that day.
But that's where benign curiosity came in, because the worst thing I could have done was challenge a suspect.
But by being benignly curious, I got him to talk in ever more details and never interrupted him once.
I would just well.
What do you mean by that?
And I think it's a very effective tool to use.
This is great.
Joe, I love this.
I appreciate this.
Thank you for the contributions that you've made to the field over the years.
And I am excited to promote this book and hopefully we can chat again soon in the future.
I hope so.
I think the work that you do is so great because I know you love knowledge and you share it.
And I think that's the most magnificent thing that we can do.
So thank you.
Thank you for having me.
