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Melody, thanks for joining us today.
I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, it's our pleasure.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
I am a executive coach, a licensed social worker, and I am the author of a new book called Trust Yourself.
Stop Overthinking and Channel Your Emotions for Success at Work.
Fantastic.
So let's get into the book.
Where should we begin?
I think we can begin with how this book came about.
That may be a good place to get started.
Perfect.
So let's start with that origin story then.
Yeah.
So, you know, as I mentioned, my background is as a social worker.
So I began my career in psychology.
And really I, from a very young age, was your consummate, A plus gold star student who lived to exceed expectations in every way.
And I followed that path of success that was laid out for me got good grades in school, went to a good college, got a good job out of school.
And came to a point early on in my career where I found myself completely and utterly burned out.
And it wasn't, for lack of being good at my job or not being able to manage my time.
But it was because I had let my own tendencies, my own people pleasing, lack of boundaries perfectionism, self doubt.
I had let all of that become such a heavy weight to bear that I literally couldn't go on anymore.
So I came to a point in my career where I had to use my training in human behavior and psychology.
I had to use all of those tools on myself.
And now, as an executive coach, I work with people who are just like me, who are also highly sensitive, but also high achieving, and have that same combination of traits that can at once be our superpowers that help us excel and and strive in our careers, but can, at the same time, be a detriment and really hold us back if we don't have the right tools to be aware of these qualities and know how to manage them.
That is fantastic.
And I'm excited to know that I'm speaking to somebody else who has a psychology undergrad degree too.
So this is great.
So we'll go heavy into the psychology there.
So let's think about this, because right now you're at a point where you've written this book, you're kind of able to understand the barriers that you faced, maybe where they came from and then how to overcome them.
And so maybe we could use you as a case study.
So what led you to have these types of barriers in your life?
And then we can transition into what you did to overcome them.
Absolutely.
So in the book, I talk about this personality type, which I've defined called a sensitive striver.
So again, Pretty self-explanatory, but it's that combination of being a deep feeler and a deep thinker, combined with that ambition and drive to be the best version of yourself.
And those two sides, when they come together, again, can be a strength but can hold you back.
And so in the book, I define six core qualities that make up being a sensitive striver.
And when these qualities are unbalanced, that's when we have the downsides.
So I can give you a couple examples of that which one of the strive qualities.
The first one is sensory sensitivity.
So that's having a more intense nervous system response, since we, as sensitive strivers, have a more finely attuned central nervous system.
This is about 20 of the population, about one in five people that has a set of different genetic differences and actually brain differences that leads them to being more responsive to everything that's happening both within and around them.
So I was someone especially earlier on in my career when I didn't realize it would get overwhelmed very easily.
And even now today, if I'm put under pressure or I feel like I'm being rushed or there's urgency around something, I very easily can become frazzled and I completely shut down.
So that's one example of how that manifests.
The second would be thoughtfulness.
So we sensitive shrivers, and this is certainly the case for me, we're reflective, intuitive.
We think through decisions before we act on them.
But again, if that's unbalanced, that can look like worrying indecision, overthinking things, self-doubt.
So as you can see, all of these traits have an upside, but they have a flip side along with them.
Yeah, this is really interesting.
And what's interesting to me too, is taking a step back and understanding where you can put yourself to be successful.
Because, based on my understanding of the highly sensitive people, I'm thinking back to Susan Cain's book Quiet.
She talked about a lot of the research in that too.
It's something that you can see in young children.
Some people are more sensitive to stimulation.
And then other children, they need a lot more in order to be stimulated.
So the people who need more to be stimulated, they're jumping out of planes and going to rock concerts.
And the other people need like quiet in order to be able to function.
And so it makes me think that you need to be very mindful of what type of atmosphere you put yourself in.
So, for example, if you're in a really, really fast moving startup.
And you have to do a lot of things, a lot of different ways, a lot of times, and every day is different.
That could be easily overwhelming.
100 you.
You put it perfectly that the the whole point of describing this and being aware of this personality is so that you can manage yourself better and you can create conditions for your own success.
Or if you know someone like this, you can understand their tendencies, so you know how to communicate, work with them better to achieve better outcomes.
Because if you're having a difficult conversation or negotiating with a sensitive striver and you come at them very aggressively, you dump a ton of information on them all at once.
Well, they're going to shut down or they're going to be very easily overwhelmed.
So, even just being aware, because you either are this personality type or you're dealing with them, having the awareness gives you power to get the most out of these qualities and traits.
Right, okay.
So for the person who identifies in this way, it's important for them to be mindful of what situations they put themselves in and even what occupations they find themselves in, because that can be a key driver for success.
And then for the people who are working with them.
It's really important to adjust the way that you have these conversations with them, because you could be in a situation where, for example, you might be very direct and you might have a lot of information And, at the same time, you need to make a quick decision.
And you're talking to the person who's a sensitive striver, and then they're taking a lot of time to process.
And maybe even they shut down completely because they're overwhelmed in general.
And now you just piled something else on to them.
And so you think to yourself either they are ghosting me, ignoring me, they don't care, or they're utterly indifferent to the success of the company.
And so if you don't understand that personality type, then you might find yourself in a position where you are misreading the situation and interpreting malicious intent, maybe where it doesn't exist.
That's exactly correct.
And the flip side of all of this too, is it's important for folks who are sensitive strivers to realize that not everyone is like you.
There are going to be people who want more direct information, who want just the bottom line and no context, who want to know well, what's your point of view?
They don't want to have a whole discussion about process and how did you arrive at this?
And so it's important for the sensitive strivers out there to also realize that Yes, you need to know yourself, but you also need to be flexible to the fact that the other 80 of people aren't like us and don't necessarily have the same tendencies as we do.
And so to be persuasive, to get the outcomes, to get your needs met, you need to be flexible and be able to adapt to other people's preferences as well.
Gotcha.
And Melody, here's something that would be interesting to discuss.
And I'm not sure if there's any way to really do a study on this, but I kind of want to get your perception.
So I want to get an idea of how different things could be perceived based on whether or not you are a sensitive striver or not.
So, for instance, if you have a boss who's very direct and really wants to make things like decisions really quickly in a, in an atmosphere like a startup, where things are happening all the time and it's chaos all the time,
Right.
Is it possible that the person who's a sensitive striver might perceive the direct communication and consistent direct communication from a boss as controlling or aggressive, because of the differences in how they're made up?
Yes.
And I will say that, for the most part, a characterization of sensitive strivers is that they do tend to be more reserved thoughtful, deliberate communicators.
But I do have sensitive strivers that are my clients or in my programs, who are more direct and dominant and want it done ASAP.
They just also happen to be more aware of other people's emotions, empathetic to what's going on.
So I just want to say it's definitely a tendency in the way they skew, but it's not sort of the end all be all.
But yes, I would say that, more times than not, sensitive strivers tend to perceive other people as being dominant and aggressive.
But what tends to happen is that they internalize those responses in thinking, I'm not good enough.
I'm not a good decision maker.
I don't have good judgment.
I'm an imposter.
They start to turn somebody else's style to mean something negative about them.
So it isn't always sort of blaming or judging or berating other people for being the way they are, but it becomes more self-criticism and self-recrimination.
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I'll catch you later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, this is this is fascinating.
This is really fascinating.
So it seems like thus far in this interview, which has been incredibly enlightening, there are two main things that we can come to just as quick summary.
And you correct me if I'm wrong on any of these two.
So, number one, understanding this this unique personality type, for lack of a better term.
It's important for that person to be mindful about what types of scenarios they put themselves in and what type of work experiences they put themselves in.
Because, regardless of what it is that you do to get better or change the way that you are, to a certain extent you are who you are at your core and certain job scenarios don't match up.
And then the other thing is when it comes to the people who are the sensitive strivers, or people working with sensitive strivers.
Being more mindful of these personality distinctions helps us to engage with each other in a more effective and respectful way.
100%.
Perfectly well put.
Perfect.
Well, great.
Okay.
Now, when it comes to this work that you've done, especially in the book, what have you found to be one of the most interesting and surprising counterintuitive points that you've discovered?
Oh, that is such a great question.
And I think, as I've talked about this work more the big light bulb that has gone on for many sensitive Shrivers and the people I've talked to is the idea that you treat people how to treat you.
And if you don't have respect for yourself, if you are the first one to walk all over your own boundaries to go back on commitments uh, you said then everybody else is going to feel like they can do the same.
So that idea of you treat people how to treat you.
Um, and that goes for setting boundaries around teaching people to respect your time, how to communicate with you.
Um, but also in terms of assertiveness.
So we were talking about sort of dominant personalities and sensitive strivers.
But sensitive strivers tend to be people pleasers and uh pushovers, for the most part because they are so aware and vigilant to other people's needs, so perceptive of those things, that they put themselves second and they tend to have low self-confidence.
So they tend to think that, well, my needs don't matter.
I would just be causing a fuss if I talked about them.
But by doing that, you're actually contributing to and creating a dynamic where other people don't respect your needs, which then becomes this whole vicious cycle that leads to more resentment and burnout.
And so it's really essential to realize that sensitive strikers themselves hold the key many times to stopping that, that if you make the decision to respect yourself, to trust yourself, other people are going to follow suit and start responding more positively.
The new year always reminds me of the moment that changed my life.
Growing up as a first generation Caribbean American in small town Ohio, I learned early what it felt like to be left out.
That fear of rejection pushed me to become a people pleaser, someone who avoided conflict and said yes when I should have said no.
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It's a skill that you build.
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Thank you.
Yeah, and so two things to address.
First of all, I really appreciate you staying on brand and saying trust yourself, which is the title of the book.
Everybody, link in the description.
Make sure to buy it.
Second thing is this.
It seems as though especially and correct me if I'm wrong here when I'm thinking about the big five personality traits openness to experience conscientiousness extroversion, agreeableness and neuroticism.
Tell me if I'm at all in the ballpark here.
I'm assuming, if we're trying to create a personality makeup using the big five personality traits, we're assuming that the person who is a sensitive striver is high in agreeableness, higher than normal in neuroticism.
Is that fair?
That would be mostly fair.
Yes, I would say high agreeableness, high conscientiousness.
Yes, absolutely.
Yes, for sure.
That makes a lot of sense.
And many times, yes, personally, I am fairly high in neuroticism, so that should tell you a lot.
But yes, it tends to be those three.
And then if we're talking a DISC assessment, the DISC communication style preferences, I tend to see sensitive strivers be high on steadiness and again, conscientiousness.
Although I said I do have a few dominant types thrown in there.
And then in terms of Myers-Briggs, they tend to be INFJ, INTJ, ENFJ, ENTJ.
So about...
70% of sensitive strivers are also introverted.
You mentioned Susan Cain.
She very graciously provided a blurb for my book.
And so there is a big overlap between introversion and sensitivity, but about 30 of sensitive strivers are extroverted, meaning they gain energy by being around people which, of course, can be a tricky line to walk.
But those are some of the parallels to the other common personality assessments.
Yeah, that is fantastic, because one of the things that I've found very interesting, especially when you explore people who are high in agreeableness, it's like you said, it's the people pleasers, the people who might describe themselves as doormats, those type of things.
When you're high in agreeableness, you're really good at making other people feel good about the position that they're in.
And so, even if it seems as though you are going along with what the person is saying you, as a sensitive striver, you in yourself, might feel a little bit of resentment, a little bit of hurt and a little bit of displeasure and discomfort with the direction that things are going.
While at the same time making the person with whom you are speaking feel as though you are 100 on board.
And so the other person has no opportunity to course correct, because they think that you are down for the cause.
Absolutely.
And you said a very important keyword in there, which is resentment.
And that is something I teach in the book.
It's something I teach to all of my clients is to use those emotional signals for good, to realize that that emotion of resentment is trying to send you a message that you aren't expressing your needs fully, that maybe you need to set a stronger boundary.
So I would be encouraging everyone to just do a quick assessment of where are situations where I am feeling resentful.
Perhaps I... agreed to something and I gave more than I felt I wanted to.
Or I said I would help a colleague out on a project.
I thought it would be a month.
Now it's been six months.
And every time I see that invitation hit my inbox I just have that seething sense of resentment come up.
So it's a very strong emotional signal that can point you towards what's a more constructive action you can take that would be to your benefit, but also the other person.
Because if you're coming into something resentful, other people can sense your energy.
They can sense your disengagement, your overwhelm, or just your frustration towards something.
So it's very important to be aware of that and be honest with yourself, but then also the other person.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And it reminds me of a term called emotional leakage, where it's like yeah, your resentment in this example will manifest itself in ways that you cannot really fully control.
You're trying to keep it together, and then it sneaks out.
And it's almost like your true emotions are undermining the people pleaser inside of you.
So you're trying to go with the flow, but you don't want to go with the flow, but you've made everybody think you're going with the flow.
And then these emotions leak out and everybody's like, well, what is their problem?
I thought they were okay with this.
And I always say what you resist persists.
And if you are not noticing and addressing those emotions for yourself, you're exactly right.
They're going to come out somewhere else.
I often say it's like trying to hold a beach ball underwater.
You can only do that so long until you lift your arm up and the ball comes and splashes you in the face.
So it's really important to attune to those things, process them and really take stock of what are these emotions trying to tell me and point me towards.
Yes and Melody.
I really love that example because I know there's somebody out here listening and saying a beach ball underwater.
Yeah, it'd be annoying, but I could do it.
Cool, all right.
How long can you do it?
Let's say you're an NFL player, a bodybuilder, whatever.
Yeah, you're strong enough to handle it.
How long can you do it?
Right.
You're going to have to get out of the pool sometime, you know.
So, OK, congrats.
You lasted three days and it was horrible.
And you still ultimately failed.
The emotion came out.
Right.
I think that's such a brilliant example, because it seems like such a simple task, because you say to yourself
This is what I think I should do.
And I don't want people to feel as though I'm a stick in the mud, or they feel as though they don't like me, or they don't care that I don't care about them, or whatever it happens to be.
I don't want them to perceive that negativity about me.
So I'm just going to eat it.
I'm going to eat this emotion for the sake of everybody around me.
So I'm going to take care of their emotions, cater to their sensitivities and leave mine alone.
And you say, but I can do that.
Then every day, day after day, and eventually it's going to break.
And that's, I'm assuming, what helps to contribute to burnout, to where you're at a point where, no matter what the simple task happens to be, you cannot even bring yourself to do it, because you've been holding on to so much resentment, heartache and challenge for this entire time and not really have an opportunity to do anything constructive about it.
Absolutely.
Or for many sensitive Shrivers, it's what contributes to, in difficult conversations, having sort of an outsized emotional reaction.
And then people saying, well, why are you being so sensitive about this?
Right.
It becomes this it becomes this vicious cycle that happens.
Yep.
Man, this is good.
Have you ever thought about writing a book about this?
I have, you know.
People asked me for a long time, how do I get over this stuff?
And so I took 10 years of coaching methods and practices and put it into a book called Trust Yourself.
Fantastic.
Melody, we really, really appreciate it.
Everybody, make sure to check out that book.
Link in the description below.
Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge with us.
Really appreciate it.
It was so much fun.
Thank you for having me.
That was the first part of today's masterclass.
Up.
Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.
Let's keep it rolling.
David, thanks for joining us today.
It is absolutely my pleasure to be here.
Yes, it is our pleasure to have you, my friend.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
So I am the president of Let's Grow Leaders.
We're a human-centered leadership development firm.
We work with leaders and managers around the world with very practical, human-centered leadership management skills.
And we also do team collaboration, helping teams be their absolute best within an organization, organizational culture, and So that's a number of new things related to that recently.
So that's the quick and dirty of what we do.
But I'm an author.
I've written six different books, some of those in combination with my partner in life and work and writing, Karen Hurt.
And then some of those are solo efforts as well.
So I love writing and helping people to be their best self incredible.
I'm excited for this interview david, and we talked about this before, so listeners will let you in on a little bit of behind the scenes.
I spoke with uh karen, a high bar, David that you need to reach today.
So I hope you're bringing your A game.
Always bring the A game, but Karen's got a different game.
So they're complimentary games.
Absolutely.
Well, let's start now talking about the book itself.
Let's start off with just the general thesis of the book, and then we'll get into the nitty gritty.
Yeah, absolutely.
So the book's powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict.
And if there's a straightforward thesis, it's have the conversation.
That's going to be my first statement.
That's going to be my last statement is and I'm going to say that from my own career, my own life experience, because I started out my career very much somebody who didn't have the conversation
I was either shy, worried about the consequences, told all these stories in my head about what people in power or colleagues or everything else would do or say or anything else, until I'd get super frustrated and then finally pop my cork and say something.
And sometimes that went well and sometimes it didn't.
But inevitably, I learned the value of saying something.
And so how to do that?
Well, it's a journey I think we're all on.
And so that's what this book is all about, is how to have that conversation.
Because conflict at work, it's inevitable.
We're not going to avoid it.
The question is is it going to be destructive or is it going to be collaborative and productive and help us to get to a better place?
I love the fact that we started with this as the thesis have the conversation, because it's really empowering for the listeners to hear and for me too, because I'm a recovering people pleaser and this is part of my journey here.
And to hear somebody of your caliber with your level of success talking about how you struggled with this in the past, I think that's really empowering because it shows that we can grow in this and we're still growing in this.
And I think when people listen to this, they'll say, okay, have the conversation.
Yes, I agree.
But I think it might be helpful to go a little bit deeper here and outline some of the most frequent reasons for not having the conversation that you've heard in your research.
Yeah.
Again, I'm going to start with my own life experience.
So I remember very early on in my career maybe a year and a half and 18 months in our CEO was having this marketing event and I was leading a small team two or three people and he needed our team's participation in this thing.
But I didn't like it.
I felt like the way he was going about it, what he was presenting to the people attending the event, potential partners and funders, all this kind of thing I felt like it lacked integrity.
I didn't like it.
And I didn't have any of these phrases and i didn't say anything.
Because you know, ceo right, all the stories in my head about what would happen, and i didn't sleep three days, three nights.
I was so frustrated, just stewing and stirring, like how could he be though, doesn't he understand?
And all that kind of stuff, like how could he be this way?
And finally, after three days of that, i just was so frustrated that i did.
I popped my cork.
I was like i can't be a part of this.
I think this lacks integrity.
I don't like this.
I didn't tell him he needed to change it, but i tried to withdraw.
And what do you think he said next?
So many options.
I think the the fear monster in your head and in my head might have been like oh, you're fired, get out of here.
But i think oftentimes the reality is so much more innocuous like.
I appreciate this feedback.
I wasn't feeling good about this either.
The fear monster, as you call it for sure, was in my head going well okay, I was ready to pack my things, but that's not what happened.
What he actually said was, David, I disagree.
I don't see it that way at all.
My integrity is fine, and I don't want you to violate yours.
This was a great learning moment for me because I had not thought about this.
He said, How can we do this in a way that you can feel good about?
Wow.
Like, what a question.
And there was an easy answer.
As soon as I took two seconds to think about it instead of being mad and angry right, there was a very easy thing that I could have come to the table with to begin with.
Hey, I'm not feeling comfortable about this.
What if we were to do this?
I think that would meet that.
I didn't approach it that way.
Now, years later, I'm like, that's the way to do it.
But what I learned from him was that how important it is to say something.
And so I didn't say it elegantly.
I didn't say it well, but I said it eventually out of frustration.
And in doing that, it gave him a chance to do something different, to say something different, to ask me and teach me.
And so if I had stayed silent in that moment my silence ultimately, was selfish, because I wasn't giving him a chance to do anything different
And so here I am mad at my story of him As opposed to the actual reality.
And so that, you know, when we talk about the answer, your direct question, why do we stay silent?
Why don't we speak up?
So often it's because we fear damaging a relationship.
We fear losing our status.
You know, people are status seeking creatures, so we don't want to lose our status.
And then there are the consequences that come with those things.
If I damage that relationship or lose enough status, I'm out and my livelihood might be at stake, or my ability to feed my children, or what have you.
And so, you know, we get all these stories that all combines and.
So it's this place of fear that paralyzes us and keeps us from having what could be really productive cool conversations if we have the tools.
This is brilliant.
I love that story because it shows us that conflict is an opportunity.
And when you think about it a lot of times, going into these situations, we think about it in terms of a binary type of situation.
It's your way versus my way.
But negotiation gives us a third way, which is our way, where we can collaborate, collaborate and work through it.
And those fears that you outlined.
I think most people can relate to them in so many ways damaging relationships.
I think that's one that people can articulate.
They can relate to that.
And they've actually explicitly felt to that fear.
And then the risks.
I think about cascading risks.
It's not just this one thing could happen, but it's all of these other things that can happen.
But there's one thing that you said that I really want to explore more.
And I wish we explored this more in negotiation and conflict resolution.
And it is the fear of loss of status, because when it comes to status and I'll take a shot at a definition and you correct me where I'm wrong, because I'm sure I'm off
It's the perception of rank relative to other people in a social environment.
And if we are in a situation where our status is in jeopardy.
That's one of the unspoken human needs that we have.
And losing status can feel almost like losing a part of yourself.
And so can you go deeper in not just how the fear of loss of status, but status in general plays into conflict.
That is a deep subject.
I think that the first thing you said is that we experience it as a real harm is true.
And a lot of that has to do with our upbringing, our biology, our evolutionarily I just make it up words now but like our status over the years, over time of human existence, our rank relative to others within a social group like you just said I love your definition determined how much food we're going to get, how much Economic well-being we're going to have, all of those kinds of things.
Or let's go back to middle school.
How much we're going to get harassed and berated by the other kids who you know?
Kids are horrible to one another.
It seems to be a universal thing.
So you look at all of that where that need for status in order to be safe and taken care of feels like a real thing.
And so you get in some like higher education has a reputation for being hyperpolitical.
It has that reputation.
It has it for a reason.
Why?
Because the bowl in which status exists, in which the politics are played.
It's such a small bowl that the perceived I'm better than you or you're better than me, or my value here, and all of that.
If you play that game, there's very little to work with.
And so everything gets this hyper amount of meaning that isn't real.
And so being able to divorce ourself, to distance ourself, to separate ourself from some of that, that just isn't real.
And then it's just.
It's just a game that you get to choose whether you play it or not.
That it's not your actual value, your actual worth.
Like the first sale is to yourself.
You know, every sales person you got, you know, has that conversation.
Like if you don't believe in the product, no one else can believe in the product.
And so that's true for all of us, too.
So the way to help address that is your confidence has to be in yourself and what you do know and that you are growing.
And if you don't know it today, you can learn it and you'll learn it and you'll do it tomorrow.
That allows us to separate from this whole status game and say, no, we're all in progress.
You said it earlier.
We're all growing.
Listen Kwame, I'm using some of the phrases in this book right now in my active life and I am trying to get better at That's how in process I am.
And I wrote the freaking book, right?
Like, so I'm trying to use those things too.
We're all in process.
We're all growing.
And if we think we're not, then we're going to be stuck.
All we have left is to compete on status.
This is so good, because there are the fears that are, let's say substantiated, and then there are the fears that are perceived right.
So that fear of a loss of status, who knows, maybe it could be real.
But the thing is, if we have the conversation, we can navigate the conversation in a way that mitigates that risk, right?
So we're still in control.
So yes, you can have the conversation exactly in a way that mitigates that risk, because when you do it well And if I had like, for instance, if I had that conversation with that CEO to do over when you do it well, using some of the phrases we're talking about, you're building connection to the person.
You're building connection to what's important to them.
You're coming across as a strategic partner.
You're asking questions to help solve for their needs as well as your own.
And who doesn't need more of that in life?
The only time you're going to have a and I'm going to put this in quotes a negative outcome from that conversation is when you have the conversation and you realize, fully realize, because the other person has been direct with you and told you these are my values.
This is what I believe in.
This is what I want.
And you're sitting there going.
Oh well, now I know, because those are not my values and that is not what I want.
I don't want to work for this kind of organization.
That's going to happen sometimes.
But I've had the conversation and now I know.
Now I'm not responding to the fear monster.
Now I'm not responding to the voices in my head.
Now I'm not responding to my stories about the other person or anything else.
Now I have data.
And so, even though that's in quotes and I put it in quotes negative, I put it in quotes because I still think that's a positive outcome.
Now I've got real data that I can make an honest decision from, as opposed to running scared and reacting to shadows.
Agreed.
And, when you think about it, negotiation is a problem solving tool and a negotiation is a part of the decision making process.
And as we go through these difficult conversations, we are going to connect.
We're going to be led with curiosity.
We're going to learn through this process.
And then, through that process, I might gather information that I need to recognize that this is not the right relationship or the right deal for me, which is ultimately a win, because otherwise you run into this situation where you You find yourself in a deal, in an organization or in a relationship that you never should have been in.
And you just keep on moving forward on this path of inevitability toward an ultimate fall, which is much harder of a fall because you will know at that time you know what.
I should have had that conversation months or years ago, and I would have saved myself so much time and heartache.
So much time and heartache.
And we stave those off sometimes because we worry about rejection.
We worry about the finding out that that story isn't what we would have hoped.
And as long as we don't have it, then we leave the possibility.
Well, maybe it is, but that's a fool's game.
It doesn't work.
Absolutely.
No, no, no.
This is this is great.
And now, David, I told you I was going to keep you on your toes.
All right.
I told you I was going to keep you on your toes now.
I would label you, even though you are a leadership expert, I would also label you as a conflict resolution expert.
And you are also co-authoring with your wife, who is a leadership expert, and I will label her as a conflict resolution expert.
You wrote a book together that have powerful phrases for conflict resolution.
When you two are in conflict, how does that go?
Sometimes well, and sometimes we are still in progress.
That's a great answer.
And I want to take you back to even before we were writing the book.
And we opened in the introduction talking about this.
So our publisher, HarperCollins Leadership, came to us, and we'd written previous books with them.
They came to us and said, hey, guys, we see this need in the market.
This is a really current topic.
Our catalog really could use this book and we would like to ask you to write it because you're super practical.
You're out there, you're with all your clients.
We know that it will be current, we know it'll be topical, and we know it'll be practical.
And we said, well, that is an honor.
Thank you so much.
It's always nice when your publisher says hey, they pitch you the book instead of the other way around.
And then we had to take a hard look at ourselves.
Because, if you're going to put it out there, we're writing a book on dealing with workplace conflict and we're a husband and wife team who own our company together.
And so you've got all of that.
We talk about conflict cocktails in the book, like these mixes of different circumstances that can create conflict.
That's certainly one.
And so how do you do all that?
And there are some things that we have done very well, I think, in our relationship.
And one of those that I would put out there is that we do handle things quickly.
We try not to let things set because you let it set.
It gets bigger.
Resentments build up, you know, all that kind of thing.
But we are very different people.
And so your listeners.
If they listen to Karen's interview, listen to mine.
You can tell just by our personalities that we're different.
We approach things differently.
Words mean different things to us, just like they do for you and your co-workers, or your spouse and partner or friends.
And so you got to navigate all that.
That's just part of life.
So there are times.
And when I say that I'm, I mentioned earlier, I'm in process.
Like.
One of the things that I am really trying to incorporate in my conflict game is the phrase from our curiosity section
You were mentioning the four dimensions earlier connection clarity, curiosity and commitment from curiosity.
I'm curious how this looks from your perspective.
That is an incredibly powerful question to ask.
It's one of our greatest of all time, GOAT, powerful phrases.
And it is for a reason because when you ask that it inherently moves you out of your amygdala, all the fired up, all the to the frontal part of your brain and furious, curious don't coexist, and so curiosity, like if i'm being curious, it's at least going to dampen down some of my upset for a minute.
And then i start learning what does it look like from the other person's perspective?
And guaranteed, it doesn't look anything like it does from my perspective.
How could it?
Different experience, different Point of view, different personality different, different everything.
So to learn that and then be able to start crafting a solution together and get that into the mix.
Like for me.
When I say and not as good as I'd like to, I'm thinking about a conversation we just had within the last 48 hours.
I'm like, I could have done better at using that phrase.
I want to next time.
So you know OK, that's part of the growth process process.
What can i do better next time?
And so listener, you're talking about your workplace conflict.
You got to start somewhere.
So pick one of the goats, pick one of the phrases, start there.
As i said, i'm going to lead with have the conversation.
So you have the conversation and then you're going to learn something from it and then you'll get better at next time.
And then you can go okay, what might i do next time?
Oh, i'm going to try to do this next time.
All right, and let me be ready to do that the next time i get into one of those situations.
And now we're growing.
I appreciate this.
I appreciate the transparency here too, because essentially what you've done here is you've given the listeners permission to try, and we're not going to learn and get better unless we're willing to take these opportunities to lean into difficult conversations.
And we would have been doing the listeners a disservice if we said, oh, it's easy all the time.
I just use the phrases that our marriage is perfect.
But he didn't say that because it wouldn't be true.
But the phrases put us in a position where you can actually progress and you can make things better.
And then, because of this knowledge that you have, you can reflect and look back and see how you can improve the next time.
Because even for me, after 1100 episodes, I learned something new in every single episode.
When it comes to difficult conversations and conflict resolution, there is no limit to how good you can get at this.
And if you start to adopt that learner's mentality and you say that this is an opportunity to solve problems, create connection and also learn through this process, then you start to realize why wouldn't I have the conversation?
There's so much opportunity.
On the other side there's so much opportunity and some of this, i think, is just, you know, we're all in process and when i think back over my life up to this point, i invested a lot of my early leadership and early relational capital in clarity, which is an important dimension, and having a shared agreement, a shared understanding of what success looks like and getting good commitment around what all those things are.
But that's only half of the game.
The other half of the game is this curiosity bit.
And so some listeners you might be listening going no, I've been seeking that curiosity for forever.
And it may be the clarity part that you need to make more investment in.
In our previous book, Courageous Cultures, we say regard to this clarity, curiosity dance.
We say start where you aren't.
So whichever one is your strength that you're already like, yeah, I wake up and I do that.
All right.
How can you start incorporating some of the other?
If you tend to like to leave things super loose and amorphous, that has served you.
It's like, OK, where can you start investing in some clarity?
And if you're like super clear, this is X, Y, Z, boom, boom, boom.
Where can you start investing in some curiosity?
And either way, it's going to help you.
I love this.
David, this has been exceptional.
I had high, high expectations and you have surpassed them, my friend.
This is great.
I really appreciate you coming on the show.
And before you go, please let listeners know about the book and also about your podcast and how they can work with you.
Oh, for sure.
So taking them in order.
So the book is Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict.
What to Say Next?
To De-Stress the Workday, Build Collaboration and Calm Difficult Customers.
300 plus powerful phrases, very practical, specific words you can use in those contexts.
You can find out more about Powerful Phrases at conflictphrases.com.
And we've got a 30 plus page free guide that you can take your team or and you don't have to be the team leader.
You can take somebody else.
You can do it together in a book group.
Take people through the conversations and explore this on your own and self-pace it and do it yourself.
So that's totally free.
It's all there for you.
My podcast is called Leadership Without Losing Your Soul.
And so very practical, human-centered leadership.
So if you're a manager, leader at any level, and you want some of those practical, human-centered leadership tools,
Don't have 1100 episodes, Kwame.
That's amazing.
I am just over two, I'm a quarter of a century.
So I'm a 250 something, 260 something, somewhere in there.
But so yeah, I'd love to listeners who that's of interest.
And you can find that at leadershipwithoutlosingyoursoul.com.
And then and how to work with us is let's grow leaders dot com.
And so there are multiple ways to work with us.
From the team collaboration work that we were talking about earlier with, we have this new product coming out called the Synergy Stack.
I'm sure Karen mentioned that and long term leadership development oriented towards changing the culture.
So if you're listening and you want to change your culture through your leadership development, we'd love to talk with you.
Amazing David, thank you so much for joining us, really appreciate it.
Oh, it's been my pleasure.
Kwame, I so appreciate the conversation, all that you are doing to create change in the world.
Thank you, appreciate it.
You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next, a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge.
So you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in, Stephen.
Thanks for joining us today.
Yeah, my pleasure to be here with you.
It is our pleasure to have you, my friend.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure.
So my name is Stephen Van Cohen, and I've been a leadership consultant.
And I guess you would consider me a thought leader even though I really dislike that term for the past decade.
And most recently, the work that I've been focused on is around eradicating loneliness in the workplace, which seems like a very strange thing to be focused on.
But two years ago my partner and I wrote a bestselling book on the topic of the significance of loneliness at work and why it's on the rise and why it's important and what we can do to combat it.
And I've been focused a lot recently with working with my clients to better understand and solve this very real problem.
So that's a quick background and bio on me.
I love this.
And listeners, we will put a link to Stephen's book and his website and everything in the comments.
So make sure you check that out.
And now I want to dig into this too, because I don't want to gloss over the fact that loneliness is a significant crisis, because some people might not be aware.
And so when they hear the term loneliness, they might think about it as something trivial.
But I want to give you a chance to get into why this is such a passion for you.
It is a very misunderstood thing. emotional state that is impacting lots and lots of people.
So pre-pandemic.
There was some statistics from Cigna that found that 61 of Americans feel regularly alone.
Our research during the pandemic, where we interviewed and surveyed more than 3000 people from around the world, we saw that 72 of people said that they feel lonely on a monthly basis, with 55 saying they feel lonely every single week.
And what happens is when we feel lonely, when we feel excluded from a group.
The part of the brain that registers that experience is the same part of the brain that registers physical pain.
That means that when we feel excluded lonely disconnected, etc.
Our body actually goes through a fight or flight response.
And that fight or flight response releases stress hormones that are really bad for us.
And the US Surgeon General has come out recently to declare a state of emergency around this epidemic, around loneliness.
And the most compelling statistic on why this matters to all of us is because loneliness is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
Because that's how harmful these stress hormones are that we're being released when we're feeling this way on a chronic basis.
So all that to say people are very lonely, according to the statistics.
It's very bad for us.
And it's not something many of us are really wrapping our heads around or combating proactively.
With this, it's killing us.
And it's killing us in an unenjoyable type of way.
It is a slow and painful death.
This is incredible because again, it seems so trivial, but it's so fundamental to our human existence.
And again, we can get so distracted by these things that are happening in the media and things like that.
And we lose focus, that there are some things that are central to our humanity that we are missing out on.
Yeah, it's really the only reason why our species is at the top of the food chain, right?
Because when you think about how fragile we are like we can't out-muscle a bear, we can't out-swim a shark, we can't fly, we don't have protective armor.
We're really not that remarkable from a physical standpoint.
And yet here we are, right?
The main species who's dominating the world, and it's because we learned very early on that it was collaborations.
It was coming together and building homes and foraging for food and protecting children and working in tribes to be able to take down the saber-toothed tigers and the woolly mammoths of the day.
And our brains have evolved to be able to still have this very important requirement of that level of social connectedness.
Because many years ago, if we became removed from our tribe, our survival rate plummeted.
And our brain still goes off when we are feeling this way, even today, so many years later.
So yes, it is a very important biological requirement that we aren't taking as seriously as we should.
Bingo.
Yeah.
And to your point of that physical pain aspect, because they've tied this to the pain of rejection as well and I'm assuming it's very similar.
They found that the pain is so real that if you give the person an analgesic like Tylenol, it actually reduces the pain.
It's a very real pain, even though, from the outside looking in, there's no physical manifestation of that pain.
Well, I'm sold on the legitimacy of this mission.
So this is great.
So now how do we go about combating that?
Yeah, that's such a big question, Kwame.
We're not going to be able to get through all of the strategies per se today, but we'll maybe start with a couple of high level ones.
One of the most important things that we have to be really mindful of is there's a very big difference between between communication and connection.
We're communicating all day long, right?
And we are exchanging information, especially at work when things tend to be very tactical in nature, but the part of our brain that responds to communication and the data and that information is our frontal lobe, that feeling of connectedness, like when me and you are having a moment and I feel seen and understood and interested in and empathize with, and all of these behaviors that are called pro-social behaviors.
When those things take place, I feel connected.
So what we need to start is with separating these two phenomenons of communication and connection, because they're not the same.
And there are very specific things we have to do if we're going to feel a certain way in other people's presence.
And it's really interesting, because the definition of loneliness is is not one that's defined by the absence of people.
It's defined by the absence of connection, because I could be surrounded by people and I can feel totally alone.
And I could be living by myself in a studio apartment and feel incredibly connected.
It's all about the quality of my interactions throughout my day and how those interactions make me feel about my level of social connectedness.
So that's a big topic that we can start to unpack, but we need to start there.
This is incredible, because I'm realizing we just really don't know what loneliness is at all, because it's not just saying hey, you feel lonely.
Great.
Here, Jeff, go hang out with Jeff.
That's not it.
It's so much deeper.
I really wanted to dig into this because this was really important for us to understand, just as friends, family members leaders, colleagues.
How can we really create that connection?
And I think a great way to do this would be giving an example of an interaction communication that we might think is creates connection but doesn't really check that box, and then give an example of how we could tweak it to make a true connection.
Yeah.
So the idea of loneliness is this idea where loneliness is when you're being seen through.
Belonging is when you're being seen as.
It's me and you.
Right now I see you like I can physically, and I can tell that you really care about what we're talking about.
And throughout the day when I'm able to really focus on making that person feel seen by going above and beyond and just asking this stereotypical question of hey, how are you?
Or like, how was your weekend?
Or what are you up to?
That oftentimes is not enough for me to get a little bit deeper and to prove to like I really care.
There's a difference between me saying, call me like, how are you doing?
And you say, oh, I'm good.
And then me saying, no, man, like, how are you doing?
Tell me, I really want to know.
When I can do the second phrasing of that question and you can really start to tell me what's up.
Now I've proven to you I really care.
I really want to know.
And it's those little, tiny moments that we have in exchanges with others that make the difference between me, all of a sudden feeling seen and feeling cared for, and feeling hey, this person wants to understand where I'm at.
And me feeling like hey, that was just a very transactional exchange between me and this person where he was nice, but he didn't give me any kind of reassurance that he was really interested in me in the moment.
This is great.
And I think, when we think about ourselves in, let's bring this to the business world in a transactional type of sense for a moment.
But then I want to get back to the core of this too, because this made me think about rapport, because rapport again has become a buzzword that has been utilized to the point of meaningless.
Right.
So, hey, establish rapport.
Great.
All right.
The book said establish rapport.
Hey, Stephen, how are you?
Good.
Now negotiate.
That's not rapport.
Right.
And so this is really fascinating, because if we look at this through a business lens and we're trying to create a connection but we also look at it through a human, interpersonal lens, as a family member, a friend of whatever it happens to be, we're recognizing that it requires a little bit of vulnerability in order to create that connection.
And sometimes it's like we want to get that connection with somebody without having to open ourselves up and truly care.
Yeah, I don't think it's possible.
I don't think you can establish a very real, genuine connection with somebody if you are just in it because there is something that you need within this exchange.
If it is purely transactional, it's going to be almost impossible for you to build a moment with that person.
And it might seem counterintuitive, but I really believe that taking the time up front to do some of these rapport building I guess you can call them rapport building exercises it really does make a difference, because it's very, very hard, if not impossible, to influence someone If they don't respect you, if they're not interested in you, if they don't feel like you're genuine in whatever you're talking about.
And all of that requires a little bit of time and energy and effort, and to not just happen right away.
Unless we're building that in and we're intentional about how to do that.
Sometimes it's when negotiations get off on the wrong foot and we're really not in lockstep, right?
We're fighting each other versus working in tandem.
You're so right.
And now this is a question I've never asked because it's never been so obvious that it needed to be asked.
It's going to sound very strange.
So let's say we're talking to a business person who's listening to this podcast and saying, all right, cool.
So I need to.
The way that I thought about rapport and connection was off because they were.
I was thinking about it through a transactional type of way.
That's what they might be saying to themselves.
So then it begs the question if we have somebody who is transactional and wants to create this connection, how do they care?
Call me.
I wish I knew exactly what to tell that person out there, because if it's not genuine, it's going to come off in a really unauthentic way.
And most of us are pretty good at picking up when people are being disingenuine and inauthentic.
The only thing that I can say is, if we find a way just to be genuinely more curious, like really curious, it tends to be really magical.
So I'll give you an example.
I was working with a client yesterday and it was a large team that has been having real issues with regards to their performance and their retention and their engagement.
And there was 15 people who were a part of this experience yesterday and they I've never met any of these individuals before.
It was my first interaction.
And after an hour of just exploring and asking people, like, tell me what's going on.
I really want to know where you're having hard times.
And they would share something.
I said, oh, give me some more information.
Or I'd say, oh, man, that sounds really tough.
Like, how are you navigating this?
It was just me just probing a little bit and really listening with an empathetic ear because I wanted to understand.
And after about two hours, one of the guys stood up and said, I've never been listened to like this.
This feels really, really good.
And I really appreciate that we're all here together talking about what we're talking about.
And it wasn't like a crazy, magical, out of this world process I was using.
It was just some subtle questions with some subtle follow-ups, with real intentional, active listening, that made a huge difference in how they felt about me being in their space.
So I think if you have someone who is mostly transactional, if you can just get a little bit better at asking a few more follow-up questions and just leaning in and being more of like a conversational minor where it's not just the first response, you want to dig a Love that example because you simplify it.
Because I think a lot of people might have said, oh, man, I need to care.
Do I need to get all mushy-gushy?
But I like this.
And this is freestyling here.
So, Stephen, I want to get your perspective on this.
Have you ever watched a show where you did not care about the show?
You just happened to watch the show.
And then you watch like 15 minutes.
It's like, man, I don't even like this show.
But now I'm invested.
Now I need to know how this ends.
So I'm wondering if this is like, it's almost like a sunk cost fallacy to a certain extent.
As you get more curious, you gather more information.
It's almost like you can't help but care, because you've invested so much in the person and learning about what they need and why they need it.
And now that could almost organically start to generate that caring feeling that we need for connection, even if we didn't start with it.
Yeah, I think there's something to that Kwame, but you sparked something in my brain that is worth sharing because for me personally and I can only speak to how this makes me feel but one of the things that makes me feel really good is when I know I'm listening and I can tell that the person appreciates it.
And as soon as I get that validation from the person, I am more fueled to want to continue that, because I know I'm making this person feel good and feel heard, feel appreciated or understood or whatever.
And that to me is like really motivating, because to make somebody else feel like they really are the center of attention and in the spotlight, that's a pretty powerful sensation.
Most of us, don't get activated on a regular basis.
So I feel like it's a gift when I can do that to someone, and that tends to fuel my desire to want to do it more and more.
Yeah, this is great because I think we're onto something here, because we have to, even if what brings us together is business oriented right.
Yeah. we still have to create a connection in order to be effective.
It's almost like if we were to bifurcate the conversation and say, all right, the business side of the conversation, I have to earn my way there.
So I need to start off with that connection.
Because if we focus exclusively on the transactional aspect, it could drive us apart.
But if I say no before we even start, my goal is to talk to Steven until he feels that connection, until I can sense that and until I can make him feel heard and appreciated.
Then we move on.
I don't know.
I think there could be some benefit in mentally saying exclusively in this fraction of the conversation my only goal is connection, before we move on.
Yeah.
And it doesn't take that long And oftentimes when you're intentional about it, it's pretty powerful.
So like, for example, I do a lot of executive coaching.
And one of the very first things that I'll do when I meet somebody for the first time is I'll say hey Kwame, this is going to be really strange.
But the first thing we're going to do is we're going to do an exercise called fishbowl.
And the way that it works is you pick a number from one to 30.
I'm going to read you a random question from this list that you chose.
We're each going to answer it.
And that's how we're going to begin this exchange.
And the questions tend to be who would you have dinner with?
If you could have dinner with anybody, dead or alive,
Or like, who's three people that make you laugh the most?
And what do they do to make you laugh?
It's these kinds of questions.
And what happens is when I can cue to the person that this is how we're going to start.
Trust me in this process.
They engage and what happens is right away, we find some commonalities.
Right away, we smile.
Right away, we're able to feel like we're not in a professional executive coaching role.
We're on the coach and this is the coachee.
And it just creates I don't know like a bit of a breaking down of these oftentimes kind of uncomfortable silos.
And then we get into the coaching phase.
They're a bit more relaxed and they've got to know me a little bit more.
And hopefully we've shared a laugh and all of those little things add up in a really big way.
And we don't do that because we're just so focused on getting down to whatever we need to do.
But it can take as little as three minutes, right.
Just with a couple of strategic questions and it just sets a tone.
And I think if the listeners of your podcast were a bit more intentional by doing some of that, they'd be surprised at just how quickly they can build some of that connectedness with the person they're exchanging.
Before we started, you mentioned that human interaction is a lot easier than we make it out to be.
And this is really encouraging because the things that you've described, they're very human and they're not hard to do in terms of difficulty of understanding.
They're just hard to do because of maybe our mentality and maybe our fear of vulnerability, or maybe the lie that we tell ourselves that we're too busy to create a connection.
That's the big one, right?
That's it.
There was this really awesome study by a guy named Nick Epley.
He's a behavioral scientist out of the University of Chicago.
And He lived in the suburbs of Chicago, so he'd take the train.
It's like a 45-minute train ride.
And he got so perplexed why every single morning he was on this train with a couple hundred people and nobody was talking to anyone.
And he's like, this is so weird.
You have all of these like Chicagoans who tend to be very friendly people.
I myself, I'm a Chicago and so I could vouch for Nick.
And he said these people have amazing stories and wisdom and knowledge and ideas and things to share.
And yet it's completely silent.
So being the behavioral scientist that he is, he ran some experiments.
And he created these three controls.
The first control was the solitary control.
And he had groups of people who were omitted from having any interaction with anybody.
They were sitting next to
There was the normal control and people could either communicate or not.
They do what they normally do.
And most people, what do they do?
They keep to themselves.
They're not talking to strangers, especially on a train.
And then there was the third controls called the connection control.
And people were forced to talk to somebody sitting next to them.
And he did this in buses, in trains, in waiting rooms, in taxi cabs and all of these different in human to human interaction opportunities.
And what happened is people overwhelmingly said that they had the most enjoyable and the most restorative time when they were in the connection condition.
And it didn't matter if they were introverted or extroverted.
And what was most important is when the people before they were in the connection condition were asked which of these three conditions do you think you'd be happiest in?
Almost all of them said the solitude.
Don't talk to me.
I'm going to go on my phone or I'm going to look out the window or I'm going to read a book.
They thought that's what they needed.
And yet, when they had the forced reasoning to actually communicate with somebody around them, they overwhelmingly said this was awesome.
And this study has been replicated with thousands of people.
And it's pretty powerful to say that our brain gives us a head fake.
Our brain says, don't do this.
It's going to be awkward.
This person doesn't want to talk to you.
What are you going to talk about?
This might be very strange.
And yet most people are pretty cool.
And if you lean in a little bit, oftentimes they want to lean back.
And I can't tell you Kwame, how many really awesome conversations I've had with people on airplanes and on trains and waiting in line at the grocery store.
And I take advantage of these opportunities because I know it's good for me.
And I almost always leave that exchange on a bit of a hike.
I love this.
I love this.
It's so counterintuitive, but so important for us to recognize this too.
So I want to break down a little bit how we can do this, because a lot of leaders listen to the podcast and then they have questions about culture connection, trust issues within teams and things like that.
So let's say, a leader is listening to this podcast and they want to know how they can start to fight this epidemic of loneliness and create connection in their team.
What advice would you have?
Yeah, there's two big things.
The first piece of advice is to spotlight others' significance.
One of the fastest way to build a connection with somebody is to make that person feel like they matter.
If I'm a leader of a team, I'm going to go out of my way to make people on my team feel incredibly valuable to whatever we're doing at work.
That value could come in the form of asking for somebody to do something, But prefacing that task with call me.
Like you're so good at A, B and C, I need you you specifically to do this for me, because I can count on you to do this work right.
That's a very small shift in how we tend to ask people to do things that can make that person feel a bit more valued.
I could also go to you and say, call me like, I have a problem.
I need advice.
I need your advice.
I really respect your opinion.
Tell me what you think I should do, right?
There's all of these little things to make the people around us feel like they matter, and to feel desired and appreciated.
That's a huge indicator and a key strategy in making people feel more connected to you.
In line, oftentimes I start conversations by saying, I love your sneakers, man.
Where'd you get those, right?
Or that is a really cool bracelet.
Tell me where you found that and how can I get one?
And by starting with some kind of a subtle compliment and people love to be complimented.
That breaks the ice and it makes them smile.
And then it causes them to feel a little bit more comfortable leaning into the conversation.
The second thing that leaders and all of us have to be mindful of is this concept of interruptibility.
We need to be more interruptible.
It's very hard to lean into the moments for social connection If we're behind a screen, if we're tuned in with our AirPods, if we're reading something.
All of these little subtle cues are essentially like rejecting all of these opportunities for people to lean in and ask you questions.
And at work, this is so prevalent, especially with leaders.
They're so busy.
They close their door.
They turn off the notifications on their phone.
And when people come in and try to interrupt them, oftentimes that response can be negative.
And while we need some time for single tasking and to do deep, meaningful work and we got to plan our days so we aren't interrupted 24 seven the more opportunities we can lean into our interruptions and let the person know who interrupted us that they matter, that they're more important than the task at hand, that you swivel towards them and right away say oh, I'm so glad you came to me.
What can I do for you?
That validates to those individuals that you care.
And as a leader, that's a pretty important requirement.
So, being interruptible, spotlighting people's significance, these are two things that I would encourage your listeners to do.
This is great.
So spotlighting people, being more interruptible.
I would add a third one, inviting Stephen Van Cohen to your company for consulting and training.
This is a masterclass, my friend.
Masterclass.
Before you go, I just want to give you another opportunity to shout out the book and how people can get in touch with you.
Yeah, you got it.
So the book is called Connectable, How Leaders Can Move Teams from Isolated to All In.
It's all over Amazon and on Audible and Barnes & Noble and wherever you get your books, you can get it.
And then this is going to sound strange Kwame, but if people want to get in touch with me, they can go to lesslonelycom.
And I swear it's not a dating site.
I know it sounds questionable.
It's not a dating site.
Lesslonely.com, it's our hub of resources for how to create more connected workplaces.
And there's assessments, and there's tools and there's all kinds of stuff we've built to help leaders and employees find more belonging wherever they work.
And you can get in touch with me at that website as well.
Love it.
Steven, thank you so much.
My pleasure, my friend.
