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So when you think about the Chris Duffy greatest hits, what would that soundtrack look like?
Oh, wow.
Honestly, I am not sure that I'm a band that has the greatest hits.
I might be like a two-hit wonder.
You know what I mean?
My band is like, people are like, oh, I've heard of them.
A greatest hits album.
That's a little ambitious.
I don't think that they put out a greatest hits album.
I think that honestly, what I do if I do anything that is particularly special is I think I have figured out how to talk about topics that aren't necessarily funny or entertaining in a way that gets people to find them entertaining and funny and interesting.
And I think a lot of my career is about using humor and comedy as a tool and how you can use that to open up conversations and build connections in ways that are surprising and meaningful.
And so that's kind of like.
Why I wrote the book in the first place was trying to figure out how could you use humor in a way that I think people often don't think of humor as being used.
People often think it's like you should be the center of attention and you're going to get all this praise and everyone's going to think you're the funniest person in the room, as opposed to hey.
It's going to help you to see ideas that you wouldn't have seen before.
It's going to help you to notice things in your everyday life.
It's going to help you to connect with people more deeply.
That that's what I really have found is like the beauty of laughter and humor.
And so I think I think that's kind of my greatest tip is trying to trying to get people to that.
Well, damn, that's a pretty good hit, Chris.
Thank you.
That's a pretty good hit.
And for you, how much do you think for you with this skill is nature versus nurture?
I think that a lot of it is nurture.
I think that, like you know, we're probably born with some level of how much we feel comfortable in social situations and with how much we naturally are playful or not.
But I just really believe that um, Being funny and laughing and experiencing the world in ways where you see its delight, those are skills that you can build.
And I think that...
I think you see this with kids.
Like I think the vast majority of kids are so good at playing and laughing and having fun.
And a lot of adults, we learn that like, well, that's kid stuff.
That's not adult stuff.
So I think a lot of it is actually just like stripping away the lessons that you've learned about what you're supposed to be like.
That's fascinating.
It's funny because when we mature, as we get older, there's a lot of learning that happens.
That's necessary and helpful.
But then there's also a lot of unlearning that happens unintentionally, where we unlearn how to be spontaneous, how to have fun, how to embrace humor.
And what I love about your content is that you use it in such a sophisticated way where the things that you say and do it's genuinely funny, but also genuinely insightful.
And I think that's one element of humor that is truly not fully appreciated, where you think about humor as a tool to convey messages and to convey meaning.
So, yeah.
Tell us more about that.
Well yeah, I think, I think actually you know, and especially it's interesting to me to talk to you because you come from like a negotiation and a business background.
I think like.
This is one of the big misconceptions that people have.
Right is that?
I think people often think that like
If I look perfect, if I am flawless and I am impressive and I'm serious, people will like me more and they will respect me more and I will be more successful.
And I think that people who are actually really successful and actually really innovative and actually really smart will all tell you that that's actually not the case.
That, the more that you can admit that you kind of are confused or are a bit of a mess or don't have it all figured out that those are the moments that let you unlock the connection with the other person, the ability to make some sort of innovative discovery or the ability to go deeper in a relationship that could pay off professionally or personally.
So, um, I think we just have this like confused idea about how we, how we will succeed.
And that confused idea involves like seriousness, when in fact it's like um.
I'll give you a concrete example, which is the thing when I was doing research for the book.
The study that I came across that I have thought about the most was a study that these psychologists did about job applicants.
And they had research assistants pretend to be applying for this job.
And then they had regular people evaluate them and say who they thought was the most capable and who they thought would be the best candidate for the job.
And They had people who were very not qualified come in, pretend to come in and be qualified.
Everyone said, yeah, those people aren't good for the job.
And then they had people who were extremely qualified come in.
Of course, people said those people are better than the unqualified people.
But the thing that really stuck with me is the people who were rated the highest were really competent, really capable and had just spilled a cup of coffee on their shirt.
So they were like, oh, I'm such a mess.
I can't believe I just spilled coffee all over myself.
People loved those people.
They liked them more than the person who was capable, confident and had not poured coffee on themselves.
They actually rated them as higher in skills and competence and likability.
And so to me, like, this is the thing.
It's not like you should deliberately pour hot coffee all over your body before you go into a job interview, but it's that That is not a disaster.
That the part where that makes you like human and fallible actually is a strength, not a weakness.
I agree 100%.
And I think it's just the recognition that humans like humans.
But at the same time, those same humans are afraid of appearing human to other humans, which is strange.
Yes.
Right?
And it's so funny because when you think about the people that you like, you actually like their humanity, not just their accomplishments and achievements.
But then when we think about projecting what it is about us that other people would like, we say well, it has to be the accomplishments and achievements, especially in the business world.
And so I think there's a lot of.
There's a an interesting blend of confidence and humility that's required to show your humanity.
So for the people who are listening, who are saying okay Chris, all right, I'm starting to vibe with you.
But how do I become more comfortable showing my humanity, especially in serious circumstances?
You know, OK, I'm going to steal an idea here that's actually not mine.
It is not from like my book or my research.
I'm stealing an idea from my wife, which is she is like in our relationship.
She's the the professional one.
She's the one who has a job that is a serious job.
I'm like a professional buffoon who plays make believe on stage.
So, yeah.
The thing that she's talking about is this idea of selective vulnerability, which is the idea that you, especially as a leader, you want to be vulnerable, but you have to be selective about where you do that.
So here's an example.
Right is if you are, your company is going through a hard time and you're not growing anymore.
It's possible there will be layoffs.
What people do not want from the leader is for you to get up there and to start crying and go.
I have no idea what's going to happen.
Oh no, this is really bad.
And I just have no clue.
And I did not expect this, right?
Like that is vulnerable but that is not going to inspire confidence or or any sort of calm or sense of of security in the people below you.
Now, What is instead a more selective way to be vulnerable might be to talk to the talk to everyone and say hey, i acknowledge things have been going really well and i believe in us, and we have hit a roadblock and, i'll be honest, i don't know exactly how we are going to overcome this roadblock, but i know that we are going to and i just want you to know that we are in this together right, like that is a much.
That's still being vulnerable, still acknowledging it, but it's a much different way of presenting it and um, i think that kind of the same thing is true with humor right, it's like i, You don't want a neurosurgeon who comes in and goes boy, my hands are shaky these days.
Oops.
Hey, good luck today.
Like you'd be like, I want a new doctor.
You also don't want a doctor who like, comes in and pretends like you are just a piece of meat, right?
Like you, want someone who acknowledges your humanity and who can maybe like joke around with you in a way that makes you feel at ease.
So I think it's really context dependent.
It's moment dependent.
It's relationship dependent.
But it is like put yourself out there in a way that brings the community together rather than makes it about you.
I think that's brilliant.
And you're spot on.
And I agree with you 100%.
And at the same time I recognize that the balance is very difficult because it's like a blend of art and science, right?
So the art would be the context dependent element of it.
Who's in the audience?
What are their personality types?
What's your personality type?
What brand of humor works for you?
Yeah.
But then also the science of psychological safety and whatnot.
And for me what it's sounding like is that the only way to figure out what the perfect blend of art and science and timing is for your brand of humor in your context, is by experimentation and actually trying it out.
Because so many professionals can turn this into such an unnecessarily difficult academic intellectual exercise where they're saying OK, so I'm going to analyze when I should do it.
And then they just never do it.
But you got to try.
Well, call me.
I would also say, like I think that there is, it's easy to fall into this trap where you think that the only way to apply humor is for you to be the one saying the funny thing or telling the joke.
And I would actually say, if you're not that confident, if you are a little unsure of like, how to apply it or whether you can apply it and read the room properly in terms of like what level of vulnerability you should be at, or psychological safety,
You can have a great sense of humor by laughing at other people's jokes, by following up and playing along with another person.
So maybe find the person who is naturally really funny and who makes you laugh genuinely, not in a fake way.
And then.
A great way to experiment with humor that is a very safe is to do a little callback.
Right.
Like if the person who you you go in your office and Jill is the woman who always makes you laugh.
And Jill says something hilarious where you're at the water cooler and she goes oh, this is ice cold today.
Where did this come from?
Antarctica.
OK, I'm making a very obvious like that's a terrible joke.
But maybe in this context, you think that's really funny.
Then the next time you see Jill at the water cooler, you could be like Jill.
I'm getting that straight.
Antarctica water is good stuff.
Thank you so much.
Like very safe, very low risk, but playful.
And you're bringing back the thing that you two have laughed at before.
Now, hopefully it's an actual funny joke and it's not some sort of weird Antarctica water reverence.
But the idea being that, like it doesn't have to be you supporting other people, laughing at them, genuinely allowing for the connection to be made between people.
That is such an important part of humor.
And that's so often underrated because people make it about themselves being the one to generate it rather than to receive it.
This is that's very helpful.
That's very helpful, because I think that takes a lot of pressure off of people when it comes to utilization of humor in the moment too.
So you don't need to say, OK, I actually need to become a comedian with like lines ready.
There are different types of humor.
But there have been a number of times in this conversation where you have presented like layers of stratification of humor that I haven't really considered.
So I think a lot of times when people think of humor, they say a joke.
A joke is funny, right?
But just in that last response, you talked about how it could be a callback.
And then it was like a meta joke, because you made fun of yourself in the joke that you told, which was done in a funny way.
And I don't even really know how to pose this question, but...
How many types of ways are there to make people laugh?
As a comedian, do you see different types of jokes, identified types of jokes?
Yeah, that's such a fun question.
I would almost say that there are... an endless type of of ways of of making people laugh but certainly there are some like broad categories that you can think about right like there is a self-deprecating joke there is um like an uh a group in joke um there is a callback there is a physical comedy right of like the being dressed in a funny way or falling down or like making a funny sound.
There's there's potty humor.
There is like puns.
There's wordplay.
So I do think there is kind of like an endless array.
And I think one of the things that kind of interesting about comedy intellectually to me is that if someone wants to say to you like, do you like music?
You would probably get a little more specific.
You wouldn't just be like, love music.
Can't get enough of the stuff.
Right.
But like with comedy, we don't really have genres as much.
We don't have these like named genres.
So it's.
It's sometimes.
People sometimes have the experience where like, if you listen to heavy metal music and you said I don't like that, you wouldn't necessarily say, but I also, that must mean I also hate Beethoven.
And in comedy, I, We sometimes don't have the like names for that.
So you might experience like a really like aggressive, rude type of comedy and say that's not for me.
And then you would think like I should just stay away from jokes, and you would miss out on the part that would really speak to you.
Right.
No, that makes sense.
It's funny because I love to explore experts' perspectives on their expertise, because the way that you see it is completely different.
And even just in passing, you mentioned group in joke.
Was that something?
Yeah, like an inside joke with a group.
I mean, like, I think that if... in my experience if you ask people when's the last time you laughed so hard that you cried like you you just like could not tears running down your face holding your sides it's it's very rare that that is like I was watching a comedy movie or I was watching a sitcom or it's it's especially rare that it's like I heard a knock-knock joke or something like that it's it's almost always like i was with a friend and they were doing this thing we were talking about this thing that is has been going on for years and we just got into this moment where it was ratcheting up and we were laughing and they said something else and then i just couldn't like couldn't contain it and i think that like To me, that's why I believe so deeply that this is important because it locks you in the moment with this other person.
You are so present and so connected in a way where a lot of times in our lives we're kind of like friends.
50% there.
You're half on your phone, you're half talking.
And when you're really laughing with someone else, you are absolutely locked in with that other person.
You are nowhere else.
And then the incredible part is it's not even just that moment, right?
It's like I can tell you from 15 years ago jokes that I have with friends that are still things that make us laugh today.
And it just ripples through time.
You have these inside jokes for the rest of your relationship.
So I just love that.
I think it's such a powerful and kind of magical thing.
I agree.
And I think about this as you were saying this there's such an important role that humor plays in group cohesion and relationships.
And so let's do a little bit of a hypothetical here.
Sure.
Hypothetically, would it be possible or what would the relationship look like if you had a best friend or a romantic partner, long-term romantic partner, and there was no humor, no laughter.
Sure.
Yeah.
What would that how would you describe that relationship?
Well, I mean, for me, that's not a good relationship.
That's not one that I would want to be in at all.
Humor is such an amazing way of connecting and connecting deeply.
I think that like, you know.
You might want to be in a relationship where the humor was dialed a little down.
You want something calmer and just always low-key.
I can imagine a person who would want that.
That now is not me.
I do think that if you had none, if you genuinely had none, I think you're just missing out on such an incredible tool for connection.
Because one is...
Any relationship, whether it's romantic or otherwise, you're going to experience friction.
You're going to experience conflict.
And humor is an incredible way of releasing tension.
It's an incredible way of taking the struggle between two people and releasing it, like cleaning that all out.
And then you laugh and you're back together.
It's also like I said, it's this incredible way of being really present with another person when you're laughing together.
But it also just creates these real bonds between you.
And You know something that I think again, putting this in a business context, this is fun for me because I actually haven't.
I don't often talk to like business world people and you're such an impressive example of that.
So it's, it's cool to put it in that context.
Like, I think if you were the leader of a company, you would think about corporate culture.
Yeah.
And actually culture exists in all of our relationships, in our friend groups, in our romantic relationships.
And I think that humor is a really powerful way to build that culture, to say like hey, even if it's just something really silly, like a lot of couples have like their own little words or language, where they're like, oh yeah, like squiggles in our relationship.
That's what we call humor. the mustard that you put on the hot dog.
Oh yeah.
Give me more squiggles, you know?
And it's like, oh yeah, that's not a thing that everyone else says, huh?
Yeah.
That's just our little, our little word.
And that it's not like everything has to be this giant laugh out loud joke, but like having your own little language, having your own little phrases.
That is a way of using humor to connect to me, like that playfulness and fun.
And I just think if you had none of that, you're, you're leaving a tool in the toolbox then.
And why would you do that?
Agreed.
I feel like it would be having a car without tires.
It's like, okay, I think it's a car.
It's not going anywhere.
As we started talking, I started to realize wait, a second.
Humor isn't just something that's nice to have.
I think it's And necessary, because it's like okay, perfect partner, perfect romantic partner, but you never laugh together.
I'm like, well, then that doesn't make sense.
It's like, it's your favorite food, but it tastes really bad.
It doesn't make sense.
Sense, you know.
Also, can i?
Can i be honest with you, though it's just really funny, which is like, as i'm answering this question, i really do feel like i was like kind of like being defensive in the like from the hypothetical person who sends me an angry email.
That's like, excuse me, me and my partner never laugh and we are very happy.
And I just like I guess if you're that person, you probably are extremely likely to send me an angry email and to have like a lot of statistics and data to back you up on how humor is actually not necessary.
So I'll just preemptively say, if you're listening and you're like, we never laugh and we've never been more in love.
Good for you.
I'm amazed and I love it.
You are a car without tires, but you figured out another way to make the car move.
You put the car on wheels.
You put the car on tracks.
It's a boat that's a car.
I don't know.
Right.
I guarantee you.
There's nobody who listens to this podcast who fits that mold.
You know, I bet you you'd be surprised, because I will tell you that over the course of my career, the angry emails that I get are almost always for things where I'm like I could never in a million years have imagined that that would be the thing that made someone upset.
Like one time I made a joke on public radio where I said the moon's like a million times bigger than your face.
And I got so many angry emails from people.
Being like the moon is far bigger than a million times bigger than your face.
That is comically small.
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Well, at least he found the humor in the joke.
Right.
That's so funny.
It's but it's true.
It's I think we often just trivialize humor and just say it's something that's nice to have.
And then we go like a day without laughing and we don't identify that as hey maybe, maybe there's something off.
Well, let me ask you this.
What role does humor play in your life right now?
I mean, it's consistent in all of my relationships.
I whether it's folks on my team, I think people are very surprised in business negotiations.
People are laughing.
One of the things one of the best pieces of feedback I got when I was mediating.
So I mediated hundreds of cases.
And this might not surprise you, but when people are mediating, it's not like the highlight of their day.
You're not like, oh, fantastic.
My litigation has gotten to the point of mediation.
I was looking forward to this.
I was hoping it would get here.
I didn't want an easy, smooth, I didn't want a resolution that was quick.
Right, exactly.
So people are just like not happy.
But my supervisor said, I don't know how you do it.
But you regularly have people laughing regularly.
And it's like the worst day of their year.
Like, how do you do it?
And I think for me, when it comes to persuasion, when it comes to tough conversations, the humor has played a massive role in it, because it makes people more relaxed.
It makes people trust you more.
And I think, especially if you're somebody like me as the mediator, if I have more power, it leads to psychological safety when somebody is willing to be a little bit self-deprecating under the circumstances too.
And then, first of all, stipulation for the audience.
My TEDx talk was not as funny as Chris's, OK?
It was not.
But I strategized with my talk where I had like three main points that I wanted to make.
And right before each of those main points.
I put a joke in right before it because I know that when people are and I might be off, you're the expert here because I was thinking psychologically OK, if I can get the person to have this limbic response, because we always think about the amygdala as something that generates negative emotions, but it also is positive emotions as well.
That leads to less critical thought.
So the person will be less resistant to this major point right after a laugh line, you know?
And so it's not just incorporated organically conversationally, through my relationships negotiations mediations conflicts, but also with intentionality.
If I have time to prepare right before I make a major point, I'm going to put that joke in because it endears you to the audience but also opens their minds.
Yeah, I think it's a really important point and a really like a functional piece of humor is that again, it's just attention right, like we've all listened to someone talk and kind of drifted off and been like, oh yeah uh-huh, and it's not like you're deliberately losing focus, but you just kind of do, and then when you laugh once again it like rockets you back into.
Okay, here we are, i'm having fun, but i'm paying paying really close attention so that if you want to get people to pay attention to the point, making them laugh right before, they're definitely going to listen to what you say right afterwards.
And I do think that laughter can open people up to the possibility of a new idea.
I mean George Carlin talked about how if you laugh, you can plant a tiny seed within that laugh in people's brains and that can then become the thought of something new.
So I think you've hit that.
And I also think that something I've noticed just in this conversation I mean, you and I hadn't met before, but one of the reasons I think humor is worth encouraging people who don't think of themselves as funny to practice and to bring more into their lives is because I just think it's a good people skill.
And something I've really noticed that you do is humor. you know, you're listening really closely, but then you're, you say something, you affirm, you're like, wow, I love that point.
Or, oh, I agree.
And here's something else.
And so that the listening closely to someone else, the affirming them and then building on what they say, that is kind of core to making something funny together, to having a laughter in a moment.
It's also core to having a good conversation.
So you do that as an interviewer, you do that in conversations, but that's also what's going to.
Let us laugh together if we're talking at a party that has nothing to do with being recorded.
Amazing.
Well, thank you.
First of all, I appreciate that.
And this is this is really powerful too, because it shows how the fundamental skills that we talk about on this podcast are really conducive to layering on humor on top of it.
If you're listening attentively, you're paying attention, you're being aware of your circumstances, the context and everything.
It's not just about finding opportunities to make great points, but also you can make humorous observations and get people to laugh and relax.
Here's something that I think people can experiment with, too.
I have found that often people think that the only way to get a laugh is to have some sort of clever quip right.
To have kind of like an Oscar Wilde witticism.
Here's something that I would encourage you to do.
Next time you are at a big event a concert is probably the easiest way to think about this, but you're at a big event.
There's a lot of people in a room and there's one person talking.
If someone in the audience sneezes and the person on stage says, bless you, you're going to find out that a lot of people in that room laugh.
There's nothing funny about that.
Right.
But like at a concert, someone sneezes.
The person on stage, the singer goes, bless you.
People laugh.
And I am always kind of amazed by this.
And the reason is because so much of what we actually think of as funny is just about acknowledging the reality in the room.
Right.
Like that just happened.
We're all on the same page.
That happened.
It doesn't have to be like.
Saying bless you when someone sneezes is in no way identifiable as a joke.
And yet it provokes laughter because it just affirms that we're all on the same page.
So a lot of what you can do is just say like, hey, you're in the room with me.
We're both seeing this.
It's very hot in here.
Oh, boy.
You and Kwame are agreeing a lot.
Wow.
You know, like it's just like I'm I've said the word radical six times.
People will laugh.
This is it's you're so right.
Every time, every time.
So I think if people are struggling to be funny, the best thing they could do is like host an event during allergy season and be the sneeze it.
Carry around pepper in your pocket and throw pepper into people's faces.
Exactly.
This guy's on fire.
Yeah.
I realized that there are like two ways of making humor.
Like when you write the humor and when you acknowledge something that is going on.
So when you're writing humor, as Kwame said, he writes jokes.
How can you write a joke, especially when you're in a storytelling or telling something that is really difficult to say?
How do you write a joke for for us?
Right.
For people who don't know how to write.
So I think there's a lot of this.
There's like kind of like some some formulaic things that make jokes work.
Right.
Jokes are very scientific in a way that like an actual joke.
And I'm talking about like a joke that is kind of like set up punchline.
Right.
And you know, a lot of times the context where someone is going to want to tell a joke is like they're giving a speech, or they're giving a toast at a wedding or they have a presentation.
They want to start with something funny or they want to say something funny in there.
So a couple of really basic things are one, keep it simple.
The cleaner that the joke is, the funnier it's going to be.
Right.
So like very clear premise.
I was walking down the street and you're never going to believe what I saw.
Everyone gets it.
You don't need a whole story. that.
And then, whatever the thing that you're going to say is funny, you want to end with the funniest word, right?
So it's like a man was playing a kazoo.
Ending on kazoo is a funny word.
It's less funny if you say there was a guy playing a kazoo walking down the street.
And then The other piece that people often forget is like you have to just pause a little bit so that the laughter can fill the space.
A lot of laughter is like the social lubricant that fills silence.
So that's kind of the most basic part.
As far as the actually what your joke should be, I think that the two kind of safest things you can do are make a joke that is about yourself, or make a joke that is about some sort of shared reality.
And and so this is where like, because really good humor is specific, it's not general and it's also like context dependent.
I can't really say to you like, in any context, the best thing to make a joke about is if you say like did you know blue whales have teeth, people will be like okay, why are you talking about whales?
Um, but what i can say is like acknowledging the reality of the room right, so like Hey, I people who are just listening won't be able to understand this, but Simone is has a beautiful video set up right now.
But he also is his background is pitch black.
So if Simone wanted to make a joke, an easy thing that he could make a joke about would be like well,
Got to leave and go back into the void that I live in.
Or I'm sorry, I got to leave.
Outer space called.
You know, it's like acknowledging that we're all seeing that he has absolute darkness behind him.
And then he's going to make some joke about the shared reality.
That's a safe joke.
It's not going to offend anyone else.
And it's also like we all see it, but we haven't commented on it.
That's the kind of thing that you can say.
So you know if you're, if you're making a joke at a wedding, right like anyone who knows my family knows blank.
That's a safe way for to start a joke.
It's a shared thing that people understand.
This is so powerful.
And what's funny is, as you're saying, going through this, I'm starting to understand why some of the jokes that I've had in the past have landed.
I couldn't understand why.
You know, because I built my keynote out of kind of like a comedian building stand up.
So before I got to where I am now, I was doing versions of this keynote for free or very cheap, but just getting as many reps in.
And I would kind of play around with the punchlines and timing and things like that.
And I kind of just built it through force, but without actually intelligently understanding the mechanics of humor.
So, since you're here, if we were thinking, because you talked about like set up punchline, these little things that I think for you are, like feel obvious.
To me, they're mind blowing.
Like the funniest word, like I never would have thought that.
But a major part of my keynote, I never understood why this worked, was I would tell this story.
And again, it's a business context.
So I don't think people, the expectations are lower for me.
They're not expecting me to be funny.
But I would tell a story and I told the story.
The story was always good.
But then I remember one time just as a throwaway line it was a parenting story where I did something that worked.
And then I paused for a little bit and said I was a little bit pissed, even though it worked.
And I was and people just died laughing.
I was like, why was that funny?
Like, why did that make it funny?
But again, it's the pause and then waiting for the punchline.
So what are some of the simplest things that every comedian knows, that most of us normal civilians don't?
That could elevate our humor.
Well, I think that one of them is exactly what you just said, which is that um, You actually, if you really want to tell something funny, you probably have to experiment with it a few times and test it out and find out what the version that is the funniest is.
I mean, this is true for like every comedian workshops jokes and they try.
They tweak the way they word it.
They tweak the intonation.
They tweak how they stand when they say it.
But.
You know, that's something that kind of sounds like, OK, sure.
Yeah.
If you're a professional comedian, you're going to do that.
I think that actually people do this in their regular lives, too.
Like everyone has kind of their like go to story, or at least has like an uncle who has a go to story.
And you've heard it a bunch of times.
And it really is funny when like a new person hears it.
But maybe you've heard it 400 times.
I mean, there's something that's not so bad about that of having told a thing, a great story over and over, and then figured out what makes it really work.
So I think, paying attention in those moments to you saying hey, when I added this line, people really responded.
In some ways you just can only figure that out through experimenting and through telling it to other people.
But some of the things if you're trying it for the first time and you want to just Get as close to a success as you can.
I would say like clarity.
What people often want in a stand up joke which is also true of what people want in a story or a conversation is you want for you to understand it.
You want for it to be interesting and you want for the person's opinion on it to be clear.
So it's like, I have this story.
Here's how I felt about it.
Here's what happened.
And if you add those three things together, you at least get something interesting, right?
If it's you telling me a story about like I went to my kid's school and they had brought a live sheep into the school.
That is unusual.
So, OK, cool.
There's something there.
It's not just a regular thing.
But what makes it funny or special is then your opinion on it.
I was so excited that there was a live sheep at the school.
I was furious.
They brought a live sheep into the school.
I was terrified.
They brought a live sheep into the school.
Like those are three really different options.
And one of them may be funnier and one of them may be more interesting.
One of them may be sadder or weirder.
So that's something you can kind of experiment with.
This is.
This is it's so funny?
Because it's unlocking my understanding for why I laugh at certain things.
You know, for me humor is always kind of it's like magical, because sometimes you just find yourself responding in this way and you can't help it and you don't fully understand why.
So this is just this is really interesting seeing why it's funny.
Yeah.
And I sort of want to take away the magic of it.
Right.
Like I think, like I don't want humor to be like taken down fully, to like the nuts and bolts where you can just assemble it in the lab and it's just going to work.
I think like there is something really magical about being connected to another person and laughing and finding something together.
So I think that's a thing.
But I also just give another example, which is since we have Simone here.
This is a really amazing opportunity, right?
Because here is a person who is like an accomplished, talented podcaster in Spanish, in another language.
And and also you're you're now an accomplished, talented podcaster in English, too.
And I think anyone who is trying to learn a new language has experienced this, which is amazing.
There is no way to become good at another language without making mistakes and sounding foolish.
Everyone would prefer if they just went from I don't know Spanish to I'm fluent in Spanish.
That's impossible.
The only way is to talk to a native Spanish speaker and to say things that are bad and make you sound incompetent.
But through that, you get better at it.
And a lot of humor also relies on just being willing to say something that makes you sound bad or incompetent, and not trying to be perfect all the time.
And I think like.
If you acknowledge that and you acknowledge that you're going to be inconfident, you're going to make mistakes and you're going to have your foot in your mouth, people will like you more, but they'll also laugh at the jokes.
And so, like a classic example in Spanish Simone, you can back me up on this is in a native English speakers trying to learn Spanish and they'll say something and they'll realize that they said it wrong.
And then they'll go, oh, soy embarazada or soy embarazado.
And then the Spanish speaker will go, you're pregnant.
Because embarazada does not mean embarrassed.
It means you're pregnant.
And so there's something very funny about being like, oh, I made a horrible mistake.
I'm so pregnant.
You know, like that.
That's very funny.
And that's also a step in learning how to actually say what you want to say in Spanish.
You're so right.
So I don't talk about it very much, but I had a minor in Spanish.
So I studied abroad in Ecuador.
Every single one of my friends made that mistake.
And what was funny is when I was learning Spanish, We were and I was studying abroad.
We were living with a Spanish, an Ecuadorian family, and I was struggling to communicate.
And one of the things that was constantly coming to mind was man.
I just want these people to know that I'm smart, because I don't feel smart right now.
And I remember I started obviously getting better toward the end of the time there.
But the time where I realized oh, my Spanish is really good was when, off the cuff, I made a joke in Spanish and it landed.
I will never forget this joke.
It's not that great, but they laughed and it meant everything to me.
Right.
And and I think about it in terms of how many kind of going back to what we said about how we always want to project as so serious and we want to be seen as serious and accomplished and whatnot
Right.
And what's interesting is that oftentimes, the harder we try to seem serious, accomplished and intelligent, the less serious and accomplished and intelligent we seem.
But one of the easiest ways to show somebody that you're intelligent without actually proving your accolades is by telling a joke.
And I think that's what that lands.
And I think that's one element of intelligence that I don't think is fully appreciated.
If you can get somebody to laugh, especially in a business context, and they know nothing else about you, from the halo effect and just understanding how human cognition works, they'll realize this person has a level of understanding that is somewhat profound.
And I think that's like a business case for humor, too.
Well, okay, I want to ask Simone a question, but I also want to answer this first, which is...
So exactly what you just said.
One of the evolutionary theories for why we developed humor as a species is called encryption theory.
And the idea behind encryption theory is an observation that, across cultures, whether you live in an industrialized Western society or you live in a hunter-gatherer society they looked at this across all continents with a much higher percentage accuracy than random people were able to identify instantly whether a joke was a, whether a laugh was in response to a real laugh or was a fake laugh.
Right,
So if you go like, ha ha ha ha ha, people could hear that and go, that's not real.
Or a genuine laugh, they go, that's a genuine laugh.
And now, so these scientists were interested in that and they said, well, why would that be?
Why would we across all of these cultures?
Why would we, as a species, have such a finely tuned ability to tell when someone is fake laughing?
Why would that be important?
And the theory that they came up with was that humor served this purpose of being able for us to tell right away why, whether someone understood what we were saying, whether they could, we gave them a puzzle.
And if they had the key to unlock that puzzle, then they would laugh.
And if they didn't have the key, they pretend to laugh.
And we know they don't actually get it.
They're not part of our group.
They don't have the requisite background knowledge.
And at certain times in human history, that would be really important.
That could be life or death to know whether someone actually gets it or not.
And so when you're saying, like one of the ways to show that you are intelligent and that you get it, I would say that like there's a, there's a strong scientific argument to say that like that is kind of why humor evolved, is for us to know like oh, this person actually gets it, versus they don't.
And they're pretending and I should be cautious around them.
Wow.
You're so right.
You're so right.
So interesting story.
So my family is originally from the Caribbean.
And then I grew up in Tiffin, Ohio, which is a bastion of diversity, as you could imagine.
Uh-huh.
He said sarcastically.
And one of the things that was interesting was that you know, culturally I was raised with the Caribbean culture in, you know, Midwestern white America.
So when I came to my college big school, that was the first time I was consistently introduced to African-Americans.
And so my wife is African-American.
And so I make that cultural distinction versus racial distinction.
And so I had to learn the culture of African-Americans too.
So it was funny when I was hanging out in those groups, obviously I am black.
So I look like I fit in.
I learned how to code switch.
So this is my business American accent.
Obviously when I'm with my family, I code switch Caribbean.
And so I had to learn how to code switch African-American.
And so they would have these cultural jokes and And I would laugh.
And one of Whitney's just would warm her heart to be like, hey, everybody, stop, stop, stop.
Kwame doesn't get it.
He does not know what we're talking about.
I get it.
She's like, OK, tell me what Friday is.
Tell me about this movie.
Uh-huh.
So it's funny, too, because you're absolutely right.
If somebody doesn't get it, it is an instant cue that they are different.
They are the other.
And there is less of a connection there.
Yeah.
It's also the flip side.
Right is like, if they do get it and they are genuinely laughing, you're like OK, we are on the same page.
You and I, we understand each other.
So I think, you know, it can cut both ways there.
Where in the Caribbean is your family from?
My dad is from a small island called Dominica, and then mom's from Guyana.
Did you find that the same thing happens in reverse, where sometimes you will be having a joke that is specific to your family and then your wife is laughing and trying to get it and she doesn't actually do it?
Whitney will just be like, I don't get this.
Oh, I love people like that.
I wish I was a person like that, who could just say, I'm just telling you I don't understand.
Instead, I'm like...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
And I know as a guy who has been to Guyana never, I totally get it.
How important is the context, right?
I live now in Canada.
So I came from Venezuela and everything changes, right?
Yeah.
So I tried to translate my jokes and everybody was like, Yeah, yeah.
Silent.
And to me, it was so funny.
But it's very difficult to explain not only the words but the context and the way of humor, you know, because at least in Venezuela, we have another concept of bullying which is not aggressive, not aggressive at all.
So here, bullying in North America is more aggressive.
So when we bully, we do it in a different way.
But here it's like a yellow alarm or red alarm.
It's not good.
So we see it in different ways.
So I have to say, okay, I have to stop joking, learn, and then try to do it again.
Is there a way to find like a universal formula for jokes so that I stay safe?
You know, I got to say the answer is no.
I don't think there is a universal formula.
I think like, you know, the closest thing to a universal formula for jokes is it does.
I think pretty much every culture has some version of laughing at physical comedy.
Right.
So like the burping, farting, tickling.
Right.
Like.
That's kind of universal, but that doesn't mean that it's always right for you to do.
Right.
Like I wouldn't be like.
I moved to Canada and I used to tell these, like witty quips in Spanish, that all my Venezuelan friends got.
And now all I do is go, hey, listen to this like that.
I think people will not not like you that much if that's your new version.
So but I think there, you know, humor is extremely culturally and context dependent.
And again, I think it's kind of the magic of it is that like it's really like you and I are in this moment and we're seeing this and having this shared experience.
But, like Kwame said, like even with him and his wife, it's there are moments where there there's a crossed wires or it's not exactly the same thing.
And you know I've on the podcast that I host I once interviewed the marriage experts, the Gottmans, and the Gottmans say that every relationship is a cross-cultural relationship, that even if you come from exactly the same ethnic and social background, that every two people have a different cultural understanding of how things are supposed to work.
And so you always are going to have to navigate those those lines.
It's never going to be the same.
OK, first of all.
First of all, when Simone was saying is there a joke that works across all cultures?
Did you see my childish joke?
You really loved that it was farts at first.
Man, I was like, man, it took seventeen hundred episodes and almost a decade.
But we're going to say fart on the podcast.
Oh, you never even said the word fart.
Oh, my gosh.
I made a fart noise with my mouth.
That's incredible.
I know.
This is great.
And for me, struggling with lactose intolerance my whole life, this is like, I feel so seen.
Yeah.
Now I'm like, we got to say, I got to find out other words you've never said.
Fart, flatulence, butt blaster, butt trumpet, rear noise machine, sonic explosion.
I'm like, what else can I say?
I'm so excited to send this to my friends.
They'll be like, this is the most Kwame episode ever.
Why was that man on the show again?
Literally, who was that man?
And then second of all, don't just say the podcast that I host.
Like, it's not a big deal.
So can you just like take 30 seconds again, be selfish and promote the podcast.
Then we'll go back to this podcast episode.
But I need you to give yourself a pat on the back here because it's big.
Yeah, so I host a show called How to Be a Better Human for TED.
And we are about to go into our sixth year of doing the show.
And basically the premise of the show is there are these people who've given these TED Talks and have these really brilliant ideas.
But what would a regular person do to put those ideas into place in their life?
And the reason TED hired me as a comedian is because...
I think, using the tools that we've talked about here, I'm able to be like okay, you're so smart, but like, how would I actually do that?
Like I don't actually know how it's so cool that you have figured out a way to like be really successful in business and that it always works.
But like, I, I'm struggling to get a callback for my, from my job interviews.
So like, how do you actually do that?
And I think basically like the, the main thing, The show.
If you listen to How to Be a Better Human, it's not cut for laughs.
It's not like going for comedy.
But I think the tool of comedy that I use in it is being willing to ask a question that might make me look silly or foolish, and being willing to be laughed at because it can bring us to a deeper understanding or a more interesting place of connection.
So and that's one that I think, again, like.
I wish more people did in their regular lives.
Yeah.
And actually to that point Chris, that's one of the brilliant skills of great negotiators too, because they are willing to ask the stupid question using air quotes aggressively here.
Stupid question.
But a lot of times that's the thing that unleashes and unlocks the information that everybody needs but is afraid to ask for.
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm curious about that, right?
Like How much of negotiation is about trying to get the other person to look good versus trying to get you to look good?
It's a big part of it.
Big part of it, you know, because especially it's I think it's a cool pattern breaker too, because people go into these negotiations like armored up, very defensive, a lot of times.
And if you are more relaxed or willing to have self-deprecating jokes when appropriate, get people to introduce some levity to the conversation.
Their armor goes down.
But also I recognize that at the end of the day, they have people that they have to go back to and talk about this.
So for me, I always want to be able to frame my offers and frame the situation in a way that is tailor-made for tooting their own horn when they go back to their people, where they can say this was a win for me.
I went up against Kwame Christian and I got this for us, right?
And so I need to be acutely aware of what it is that they want and why, but not just what it is that they want, how they frame it and the words that they use.
So then I tailor my offer based on this.
So it's framed from their perspective, not mine.
So they could go back and say, this is a win.
And I'm like, yeah, it's a win for me too.
Yeah.
So this is the thing that I think has actually been the biggest surprise for me in my own career is, you know, I was a fifth grade teacher.
And so I very rarely had to negotiate things, right?
Like there was like a set contract, and then you got a set raise every year.
And then, when I became a comedian, I would have never said that my skill set would lend itself to running a small business.
And I also would never have said I want to run a small business.
But so much of the day-to-day job is like...
You get a contract.
You have to negotiate the rate.
You have to negotiate the terms of the contract.
And a lot of the business of being a comedian, of being an independent producer of media is like the same as if I was selling sneakers.
You know, it's just like instead of sneakers, it's like my services.
And so I've really had to learn how to have these conversations where someone says to you like well, what does it cost for you to come to Wichita and give an hour long performance?
Because there isn't like for them or for me, there's not like a thing I can look up.
I can't like go online and go like price list, Chris's comedy, Wichita, Kansas.
And I found that over the years I've really had to like develop some of these strategies for negotiation that I never would have thought would be in my toolkit but that have now become part of it.
Excellent.
See, everybody's a negotiator.
They just don't know it.
And let me say this too, because I let me push you on this, because when you think about the traditional ways of negotiation, it's very transactional.
But for me, when I think about negotiation, I define it as anytime you're in a conversation and somebody wants something.
And for you, when you were teaching some of the toughest negotiations, they weren't about money, because that you know, the collective bargaining, whatever that's, that's locked.
Right.
But then, when it comes to interactions with parents others, other colleagues, you were having some of the toughest negotiations imaginable.
Yeah.
Well, as soon as you said that, as soon as you said it's a conversation where somebody wants something, I was like, oh yeah well, we did a lot of negotiating of like, how can you get tissues when you have a runny nose and you want to get up from your seat?
Right.
Like there was a lot of negotiating of all the details of how a classroom ran, where a kid would be like.
Well, I want to sharpen my pencil right now.
And I'd be like well, it's actually quiet reading time and we're not using our pencils, so we don't need to sharpen your pencil.
So that's not the time that we do that.
They'd be like well this, and then you'd have to come to terms on like, so what is the pencil policy?
What is the tissue policy?
What is the policy for when we read quietly versus when we're allowed to talk to our friends?
There was a lot of negotiation.
I never had thought about it as negotiating.
And I'll tell you what.
Those are the hardest people to negotiate against, because when you are negotiating with a child who is in your class, they got nothing to lose.
They are willing to go.
They're willing to go hard on the negotiating map.
No doubt.
I'll tell you man, when I've done trainings of the past the educators they've been the hardest ones, because the scenarios that they come up with are so challenging.
It's like, okay, so I got an angry parent and they're mad.
And the reason that they're mad is because their kid lied about what happened.
And I've got five minutes to do this before the bell rings.
How do I deflate, like diffuse that situation?
I'm like, I don't know, with extreme difficulty.
Yeah, I just had like a post-traumatic flashback to like that exact same thing where it's like I'm calling a parent and I'm going like yes, your son had his fists in his shirt mimicking a woman's breasts and was saying I'm walking and they're bouncing up and down.
And she's saying, well, that's not what he's saying happened.
I'm like, well, I was there and it was pretty clear and he was saying it very loudly.
So that is why we had the conversation.
And I do have to go.
But let's talk more about what is in is not an appropriate way to use your fist inside of your shirt.
OK, got to go.
It's hilarious.
It's hilarious because it's not me.
Right.
And isn't that one of the humor calculations?
Pain plus distance equals humor.
Yeah.
One of the famous kind of phrases in comedy is tragedy plus time equals comedy.
So that like something happens.
And in the moment, it is sad and intense and overpowering.
But that, as you get some distance from it with time, that you can look back and see the ridiculousness or absurdity or comedy within it.
And that often that's actually like the most powerful comedy can come from looking back.
Amazing.
Well, this is great.
And let me end with this.
I know we've been having a lot of fun, but I think there's just a really important question to ask.
So, hypothetically, if you had... a hexagon, what would you name it?
Oh, great question.
You know, I think I'm going to name it Kwame, based on this.
You've earned the hexagon.
This is great.
See, listen.
So you see what I did here?
This was a group in joke.
If you know this joke, everybody check out his Ted talk.
And then also a callback.
You see, you taught me.
This is a short period of time.
I'm learning.
I'm honored.
You are my star pupil.
The pupil has become the master.
So there you go.
This is great.
Okay.
Now it is promotion time.
I want you to land this.
So humor me.
Hypothetically, if there was a book that somebody should be reading, what should that book be?
That's a great question.
It should be literally called humor me.
As you said at the beginning of this question, I wrote a book called humor me.
It comes out January 6th, 2026.
So it is a available for pre-order if you are listening before january 6th and it is available for regular order if it's after january 6th and it's a book full of ways that you can have more laughter in your day-to-day life and all the practical ways that you can apply that and build those muscles amazing chris thank you so much for joining us really thank you so much for having me this was such a pleasure uh kwame simone i really just appreciate you having me on the show boom
