Welcome to another episode of Goldman Sachs exchanges, great investors.
I'm Tony Pascarello, global head of hedge fund coverage in Goldman Sachs's global banking and markets business.
I recently had the great pleasure of sitting down with Steve Cohen, founder CEO and president of Point72.
Steve is one of the world's greatest hedge fund managers and he'd be on anyone's list of the most formidable traders of all time.
We sat down in early June at Goldman Sachs's APEX symposium where Steve discussed his path to investing, the traits that led to his investing success and his broader views on the markets and the hedge fund landscape.
He also shared some insight on what it's been like since he became the majority owner of the New York Mets and his approach to leading the iconic franchise over the past five years.
We hope you enjoy this conversation.
and Steve, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today.
Happy to be here. Let's go back to the very beginning.
Why don't we remember it?
Hah! So what was it that led you to a career in the markets?
Yeah, I mean, that's my interest in the markets, started really young.
I had grandparents that used to talk about stocks they owned and when I was 12, 13, I'd read the sports page and then right at the next page was the stock exchange listings.
and so, I was sort of math oriented and just started looking at the prices and then I started hanging out in a brokerage firm in my hometown.
I actually found a job right next to the brokerage firm so I can go in there and I used to sit there with the old traders and we just, I was 14 years old.
Where was this? This was in my hometown, Great Neck.
And it used to be like a show that before CNBC, I used to want to stay home from school and watch the tape.
And so this was when I was 14, 15, 16.
You know, maybe the grade suffered a little bit, but I learned to watch the tape.
Now, the world's different today and you can't do that type of stuff.
Essentially what it really was was pattern recognition.
And I notice things that I could actually start predicting what prices would be 10 minutes, an hour, two hours ahead of time based on the patterns on the tape.
and at least higher probability of getting it right.
And so, I was lucky enough to be hired by a local brokerage firm when I was 21 years old to do option arbitrage, but then I decided why hedge if you're getting the pricing right.
I was able to buy stocks, and I said, why am I hedging?
Because I could sell it higher the next day, so at 21, 22, they actually, the firm allowed me to take risk without hedging.
I would never ever allow anybody my firm at that age to do that.
Okay. I mean, it's almost remarkable they allowed me to do this but it gave me a great opportunity to demonstrate and develop my style and it was new and different in the markets and No one was really doing it that way when I entered the hedge fund industry It was more of a macro world with Soros and Steinhardt and Julian Robertson all these great names And I was doing it different.
And after a while, people go, what is that guy doing?
So kind of developed a new way of making money that maybe Wall Street hadn't seen before or hadn't seen much of.
It just went from there.
And in the time since then, you've seen a lot of traders come and go.
You've seen a lot of money managers come and go.
I've seen a lot of traders come.
So what do you think are the traits that kind of correlate with those who've been successful?
Well first you got to love it.
I used to say, I couldn't wait.
I hated my weekends.
I couldn't wait to get into work Monday.
I mean, because I just found the markets so dynamic and so exciting.
And you got to listen, you got to have a process that you believe in.
You know, whatever it is, you got to have a core competency.
And as long as you have that, a core competency, something that you do well, keep doing it.
And then you have to be adaptable, the markets change.
I mean, most of the people I was in either hired or competing against in the 90s are not in business today because they didn't adapt.
They had one way of doing things.
And so you've got to be in a constant state of learning, evolving, you have to be highly adaptable.
And if I wasn't flexible in adaptable, I'd be out of business today.
So let's jump off that point.
The hedge fund industry has evolved hugely since 1992 when you founded your firm.
What's different about your approach today versus the early years?
Well, I mean, the early years, there was so much more alpha 30 years ago.
And I actually started the hedge fund right at the beginning of a big bull market.
So it literally was an eight year bull market, which was, you know, phenomenal.
And so you had the winds behind you and there was just tons of alpha available.
Now it's much more competitive.
And we used to take so much risk, okay?
I mean, almost remarkable when I looked back at how much risk we took.
but there were so much alpha out there.
Even if you were wrong, you were able to make it up in other ways and today, we run completely differently.
We're much more conservative.
We run long, short, very tight and the business is much more scalable to us.
So I wanna stick with the hedge fund industry for a moment.
The multi -strap model has achieved a huge amount of prominence today.
Why do you think that is?
Well, I mean, God, we have scale.
We can provide credible resources to our people.
I mean, if you're a single manager, you've got to market.
You've got to hire people.
You're the one interviewing all these people.
You probably have a very narrow specialty that if it's for some reason not a moment where that strategy is working, what do you have to fall back on?
We're very well diversified.
We're diversified sector -wise, geographically -wise, strategy -wise.
It's just ultimately just a much better model as far as, so my people, my investing side, can just focus on what they do best, which is finding great ideas.
And I have to focus, and I do the marketing, or obviously managing the firm, right?
So, 100 % of their time is focused on creating alpha.
Within your space, within the multi -manager neighborhood, it's super competitive, what does it take to win?
Yeah, listen, I made my competitors of fierce, and getting constant state of wanting to grow, and so the acquisition of talent has gotten really expensive, which means you know you got to find other ways to develop talent.
We have many significant developmental programs starting at the beginning when we hire people right out of school for what we call our Academy.
We get like 30, 40 thousand applicants with 40 jobs.
It's remarkable. So we're able to hire the best and brightest and then once you're in the firm, education continues and evolves you know.
We're people new things we have PM and analysts programs, development of the programs, so basically an analyst can become a PM one day.
I equated to sports, I have a farm system, versus you can go out and get free agents, well listen I got one free agent last year, it wasn't cheap, and okay.
And so it's you know, if I could've developed that guy it would've been a lot cheaper.
So our goal is that you know, and I think we do a lot better at developing talent, we have a higher hit rate as far as, because we know the people coming through our system, we know who they are, we know what they're capable of.
When you're hiring somebody on the outside and it's usually competitive and it happens pretty quickly, you can make a mistake.
Let's talk about market dynamics today.
What do you make of the cycle and how do you feel about the opportunity set?
Yeah, we're in those, we're all somewhat headline -driven right now, which is a hard way to run money, but actually I think, I'm talking about tariffs right now, I actually think it's kind of consolidating around a number most people think, and I agree with this, the average tariff will be in the 13, 15, 16 % range.
And what we do now is take those numbers and roll it into our economic forecast and we expect slowing growth.
And my economist thinks 45 % chance of recession.
I'm not sure if it's that high.
But I, to me, recession, not recession, not really relevant.
And we're talking about decelerating growth over the next year.
And even in 26, we only expect growth in, say, the one and a half percent range.
So in a world where multiples are high, I'm somewhat concerned on a short -term basis.
Now, it doesn't mean we have to go down a lot.
I mean, we could be in a trading range.
And when I look at it a little bit, I think the offset is what's happening in AI.
And you can already start hearing about the margin benefits that companies are gonna accrue from implementing these tools.
So I think that's what holds the markets together is the thought that margins will improve down the road for companies.
Now, what it does for employment, what it does for white collar employment will be interesting and that may be a topic for another day as this develops.
But from a company specific, if you're not implementing these tools now, you're falling behind.
So my guess is that there's real benefits.
this is a technology cycle that's probably going to be long lasting at duration and going to have a massive effect on how we live our lives today.
Let's stick with AI for a moment.
I'd be curious, how do you think about AI in the context of we're going to deploy capital?
And then how do you think about it in terms of evolving your business?
I mean, obviously there's lots of private companies that are being developed today.
I mean, it's amazing.
You hear about these companies that are ramping up revenues incredibly quickly.
Maybe a company would start and have five, 10 million revenues in a year or two.
Now, you're talking about hundreds of millions.
Clearly, these companies are attacking problems that companies want to be involved with them as far as creating solutions to their problems. You can express these bets in all the big names, all the obvious names.
They're not expensive.
they're going to be really major beneficiaries of their investments that they're making now.
And probably the winners.
Which, if you play it out, is probably why the indexes are going to hold together.
And have you seen any productivity enhancement within the operation of the firm in terms of the operating?
I mean you know we're, I would call still nascent.
As far as in our investment side, we're embedding AI people with within our units to watch, should see how our people work and then try to develop tools that can help them become more efficient.
That should be like the base case.
Can we make our people more efficient?
Can they do more higher -valued judgment type thinking as opposed to manual work?
And so, lots of projects going on now and real participation.
All our investment professionals they understand this is going to really help them.
So I think that's the base case.
And then all the data that we produce in the firm what can we do with it?
And how do we use these tools to enhance our ability to create alpha.
I mean, that's really the gravy, the Holy Grail, and that's sort of where we're highly focused also.
So given everything we discussed so far, you have a bunch of businesses within the firm.
You have a fundamental long -short business, a quant business, you have a macro business.
How much does the calibration of your risk kind of change over time?
And given what you just said about pushing chips firmly in kind of one of those businesses versus the other, not necessarily.
Yeah, I think it's really hard to predict the future.
So if you have three good businesses and call them three pillars of the firm you kind of want to support them all and they they tend to kick in at different times.
When macro is kicking in maybe equities is having a tougher time so there's a real nice balance there and now I'm thinking about private credit as maybe a fourth pillar.
I think there's a real opportunity there, a huge TAM and opportunities to attract great talent that do a strategy that I think we can embed in the firm.
I'm really excited about that possibility too.
So let's spend a minute on that.
It's a pretty different business in a way than a public business.
So what drew you to it and how do you think about the risk management of it as distinct from your other businesses?
Yeah, listen, I think the way you gotta manage risk is you gotta diversify over many types of strategies within the space, not different than what we do in our traditional fund.
And everyone's talking about data center investing.
Okay, well, if you put all your chips into that and for some reason there's overbuilding, and you're in trouble, right?
But if you can spread bets over whether it's the consumer, corporate sector, maybe real estate, so you get the diversification.
And then what I'm looking for are strategies that create extra alpha.
So about a year ago I sat next to you at Citi Field and Al took a quick story, and he said, I'm thinking about not trading a book.
And I said, I bet you a beer, you'll keep trading a book.
And you said, you're gonna lose that beer.
And about a week later I lost that beer.
You haven't paid the beer.
I haven't. I owe you a beer.
You owe me a beer. So you're no longer trading that book?
I'm not trading, no. What are you doing with the time that you got back?
Well, actually, I mean, it's actually remarkable.
I mean, my life is so much better.
I mean, I basically had three jobs.
I was trading, I was running point 72 and obviously heavily involved with the Mets.
And so, now freed up, obviously still the CEO of point 72 and obviously we're trying to grow the firm and that takes up a lot of time.
Then the Mets take up more time than I woulda thought.
But it's interesting, being involved with baseball actually makes me think about things that then I bring back into Point72.
And so, it's a great example of spreading your wings a little bit, getting involved in other things and realizing the skills that you developed in one place, you can bring other places.
And that's very empowering.
It's fun. So, I'm kind of enjoying this whole new life.
And, as it relates to markets.
I presume you still keep one eye on them, does that fluctuate?
Yeah, I'm always looking at the markets.
And I'm not as involved on the individual name level that I used to be, but I'm doing a lot more macro meetings and looking at things from top down.
And so, you know, listen, I'm gonna be 69 next week.
And I started when I was 21.
I mean, that's all, 47, 48, those are dog years, all right?
And so, and I actually think the firms benefited from now being freed up for, so I can get much deeper into firm issues and mentoring RPMs and helping them think about their businesses.
So, you know, I always have a saying nature pours a vacuum, you know.
You close one door, other doors open.
So I'm having a blast doing it.
And in your mind, you think, probably go back at some point to trading a book.
There's no shot, okay.
There is absolutely no shot.
okay that's not going to happen, okay, okay I mean that was a double or nothing no no listen I I've been there done that and I'll say it again the firm benefits so much more by me being free to have these conversations with our people and have impact on them and I think that really matters and and uh so that's that's not not going.
And in that context do you find you have more clearly more time to mentor and train and share your wisdom with your risk takers?
100 % okay and help them think about their businesses I mean these are still young people and they really haven't managed people and really haven't built any and it just had helping them to think about what why are they doing what they're doing how are they making decisions.
They're young, they haven't managed anybody before and they need help and so I'm happy to provide it.
I mean everyone has constraints on how they think and you know what's possible And if you can get them thinking in sort of a more proactive, not aggressive, but because everyone around you is always going to hold you back and say, you're doing great, you don't need to run more money, you're making a really good living.
And the reality is if you're constrained by that you know what's possible.
I've seen people develop my firm and done some amazing things.
And if they, you know, had a mindset of being conservative and holding back on what they're people are doing and they never would accomplish what they accomplished.
And people get excited by that.
And they wanna start thinking about what's possible.
Let's go back to the Mets for a minute.
You mentioned in a way baseball has led you to certain thoughts or conclusions on the markets, on the hedge fund.
How about kind of the opposite?
In other words, when you first stepped in in 2020, what did you bring with you from the business world?
Yeah I mean I took over an asset, New York Mets, that was under invested in sort of old school on how they did things, and so I describe my first year at the Mets as like a hazing.
That was a hell of a first year.
And the team didn't play well, too.
Playing much, much better.
We're playing much better.
It's like trading. I presume only a team has its kind of own unique sets of ups and downs at the long season.
So what's been your favorite part and what's been the toughest part?
Listen, without question, going through a pennant race last year was just incredible, And how we were doing it was just remarkable.
We were winning in the ninth inning.
We were winning in incredible, extraordinary ways.
I mean, we'll be in the playoffs a lot, I hope, but it will never, I don't think, ever be quite like that month.
And that month was remarkable.
So, I have never felt so alive in that month.
I mean, the emotions that I was going through on a daily basis in those games were just It's something I probably never experienced.
And then my daughter got married.
She decides to set her wedding, and it turned out that was the week of the World Series, and we were in the Championship Series.
I'm like, gotta go to the wedding.
So how am I gonna do this?
And so we lost, I never had to deal with it, but I mean, it was pretty remarkable.
I think the odds of us being in the World Series, she was like 2, 3 % at that point when we were losing earlier in the season.
So that's the week she wanted it.
And thank God I didn't have to make that decision.
Obviously I would have been at the wedding.
Let's stick with one more off the field question.
You want to bring a casino to Queens?
Yes, we do. Yes. Well I call it the integrated resort.
It's more than a casino. It's a 5 ,000 seat amphitheater bringing the best music acts.
We're going to build a 25 acre park.
We're going to build an area for Med fans if they want to go to the hotel to eat and drink and enjoy themselves.
I mean the biggest complaint for my fans is that they come to a game.
There's nothing to do at the stadium And I was kid because there's lots of chop shops around after been the city field There's nothing around the stadium other than chop shops, so I always joke.
There's plenty to do you get your hubcap fix You know you get maybe get your catalytic converter back that someone stole from you You know so there's plenty to do there But this is a real opportunity to transform the neighborhood and do something for Queens in the city that I think is nothing that anybody's done before.
I'm pretty excited about the opportunity.
We just got our land rezoned in the state legislature, so now it's just about winning the license, and we'll know probably by the end of the year, so I'm pretty hopeful.
Point 72, the Mets, Metropolitan Park.
When are you gonna sleep, how's that gonna work?
Listen, I've got good people around me.
I've actually had not had to spend a lot of time on the integration resort.
I've got a great staff around me, led by Mike Sullivan, and they've handled a lot of this.
So it's a perfect example when you have the right people around you.
You can do a lot, you can scale a lot, and I'm lucky enough to have great people.
Another good business lesson.
Yeah, 100%. One last question.
You've managed a lot of businesses, a lot of people.
Yes. What's the one lesson that you've learned over the kind of arc of your career about managing all of that?
Trying to figure out what's going on in people's minds is really tough.
mean, like, and what you think is going on is probably not what's going on.
So I think that you gotta ask, you know, and get them to talk and you get them to talk, then you can help solve their problem.
So I tend to think about running business and creating solution.
And if I can create solutions to their problems or their issues, I'm way ahead of the game.
Thank you, Steve, that was a year full.
Thank you. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Goldman Sachs exchanges, great investors, which was recorded on June 4th, 2025, I'm Tony Pascarello.
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