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Danielle, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for having me Kwame.
Yeah, it's our pleasure.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure. So I'm Danielle Hansen.
I'm a senior director of global strategic sourcing at a company called Tonal.
Tonal does digital weightlifting technology with artificial intelligence incorporated right into that.
And then I'm also an adjunct professor at the University of St.
Thomas, teaching negotiation strategy and some other business related courses.
This is great. We're pumped to have you and listeners we've been vibing for the last 15 minutes talking about all of this great negotiation stuff.
So I'm pumped to share it with all of you.
So today we're going to talk about leverage and there is so much to talk about.
So Danielle, when we started chatting, I said, Hey, what are the things that are most exciting to you right now and immediately leverage came to mind?
What was it about that concept that resonates so much with you?
Leverage really resonates with me because I think it's a topic that a lot of people miss or don't think about as they're going from a negotiation perspective.
So a lot of times from a leverage perspective, people are looking at it as the fact that I don't have leverage or I have a weaker position coming into that.
When we think that way, there's a psychological effect automatically to that, that we believe that other party actually has more power than we do in that negotiation.
We negotiate just as though they have more power.
So we need to figure out how specifically we can take that leverage and figure out how we can reframe that situation.
So when we're looking at leverage, we're not thinking that we're already starting off in a losing situation in this negotiation, but we've got to figure out there's a reason that other party is at the table.
There's a reason they're sitting across from us.
There's a reason that they're actually, they're engaged in topic and discussion with us.
So we have to, as great negotiators figure out what specifically is that reason that they're sitting there.
It's kind of like that dating relationship, right?
There you're not dating someone that doesn't come to the table.
They're sitting there at the table.
We have to unlock the power that we have or the leverage that we have by figuring out why specifically Kwame, are they at that table with us?
Absolutely. I, I agree wholeheartedly and there's so much to unpack here.
And I think the first thing to unpack is the psychological impact of that perception, because you're right when, when we have clients who come to us and they say, Hey, we don't have any leverage.
Nobody has come to me Danielle and says, I have so much leverage.
I don't know what to do with it.
Exactly. It just doesn't happen.
And it's really interesting because sometimes the, I see procurement people and suppliers in the same industry saying the same thing about having no leverage.
It's a fascinating phenomenon.
And so can you break down for us the psychological impact of that perception of the other side having all the leverage?
Definitely. So when we think that psychologically, we don't have that leverage, we automatically start negotiating from the standpoint of we don't have leverage and we set that mindset up.
So whenever we're thinking through or actually doing the preparation stages from a negotiation planning perspective, we're, we've kind of got this, you know, a handcuff on our hands that we can't move forward because we don't have the leverage or we don't have the power in the negotiation.
So it's affecting how we're viewing and the lens that we're looking at this negotiation.
So we've got to figure out how do we change that lens so that we're not just continuing to come back.
It's kind of like that constant naysayer.
No, I don't have leverage.
No, I can't do this because they're going to say this.
You know, I don't have the leverage to actually bring that up.
Yeah, you're so right.
And the mindset is so critical because if we go in there with our expectations skewed because of this perspective, then it's going to impact what we think is possible.
And because we don't think we can achieve more, we don't go for more and it adjusts our entire strategy and the way that we show up.
It reminds me of the four minute mile by Roger, not by, I mean, he broke it, Roger Bannister back in the day because people used to think before he broke the four minute mile that it was not just physically impossible.
If you tried to do it, like your heart would explode.
Like they were saying it was dangerous.
But then what was interesting is that after he did it, a ton of other people did it within like six months or a year, like a handful of people did it because he showed them what was possible.
And what ends up happening a lot of times is that they people, when it comes to leverage in these negotiations, they're treating it almost like the four minute mile back in the day.
So they're essentially going into these conversations with a limited perspective on what's possible and they can't even begin to fathom that it could be another way.
And so we have to address that psychological component essentially before we have the negotiation.
We have to have an internal negotiation to call into question our position or our supposed position of powerlessness.
So how can people begin to recognize that blind spot when, by definition, they don't realize they have one?
Yeah. And I think that's a great thing that you brought up.
There is Kwame really taking that fact that it's almost an internal negotiation with yourself during that preparation stage.
So actually sitting down and going through what is my mindset going into this negotiation?
And I've been doing negotiation for many, many years, and we tend to overlook that during that negotiation planning process.
We tend to overlook the fact that we actually need to reflect on ourselves as negotiators and understand what we're bringing into, positive and negative, into this negotiation and some of the mindsets that we have within that.
So I'd argue that during that preparation stage, Kwame, we should really be sitting down and doing that reflection, adding that into more of the substantial negotiation planning factors that we have within that mix.
I agree. And I'm smiling here, not only because I love this episode, Danielle, but because you said one of my favorite words, preparation, and I can I can just feel the collective eye roll of all of my audience members because they're saying, you know what?
I know exactly what Kwame is going to say.
That's right. I'm going to say it again.
So if you go to our website, americanegotiationinstitute .com slash guide, you can get access to all of our guides, like the preparation guide that walks you through systematic preparation for your negotiation, because a lot of people don't take the time to prepare.
And so yes, listeners, I'm very predictable.
It's called integrity.
I'm consistent. Okay.
But yes, I think it's so important, Danielle, and I really like the fact that you were bringing it more into a, like a systematic approach to this too, because yes, for sure, we have to have the internal negotiation, and that can seem very meta.
It can seem very fluffy.
But then when you think about it as actually bringing this into a systematic method of preparation, now it's just one of those checkpoints that we consider, have I stopped to reconsider my initial position on where the power dynamics lie?
Challenging that assumption could really be a powerful part of the the preparation process.
Yeah. Now, when we think about leverage, what is it that leverage gets you?
And I think this is almost like a question that it seems too obvious, but I think it's important to articulate it.
Because again, the concept of leverage is something that people often don't understand, and then they don't think about it very deeply.
So I think it's important to think about what it is, in order to get a better understanding about the strategies around it.
Yeah, so leverage truly is something in a negotiation that you're able to bring to the table that helps influence the other side to get whatever it is that you're trying to get in that negotiation.
So, you know, being able to achieve those negotiables in those areas that you want to achieve.
Yep. Well said. That was it.
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And it's really funny because when you have a lot of leverage, it makes everything a lot easier.
I forget the physicist who said this originally, but they said if you give me a lever long enough, I can lift up the whole world.
Right. And so when you think about it from a scientific perspective, really it makes it very clear that the power of a lever in that situation.
And in these negotiations, when you have more leverage, it allows you to get concessions from the other side without needing to give up as much.
You don't need to give a commensurate concession.
So it's very, very powerful.
And I mean, even in lieu of negotiation skills, if you have leverage, a bad negotiator can end up with a good deal with enough leverage.
So it's very powerful.
But one of the things that you mentioned earlier is the fact that leverage can change.
When people have their perceptions about leverage, one of the false beliefs is that leverage is kind of static.
It is what it is. But I like your approach because you're considering it from a strategic perspective.
All right, the leverage is as it is right now, but what can I do to impact that?
So what are some things that we can do to actually shift the leverage in our favor?
Yeah, so during that planning process, really going through and coming to the table with what specific questions can I ask this other party.
And those questions are really to focus around the investigative negotiation process, making sure that you're coming just as you would prepare going into an interview process with questions already prepared, you want to do the same from a negotiation perspective, because you want to have those already
prepared. And then you also want to take some time to sit down with others and talk to others about that process, right, actually be able to bring in people from different perspectives, because you may be missing something as you're going through that negotiation preparation process.
But when you're bringing others into that, whether it was be colleagues, whether that be a spouse, whether that be even kids, right, it's giving a whole different flavor to that negotiation and to the perspectives that you're bringing in those questions that you're developing.
So you're really able to unlock, where are these areas of leverage that maybe I didn't know going into this negotiation, or you're finding as you're going through that process and reopening up and giving you more leverage as you're going because it's not static, leverage very much is not static, it
changes throughout the negotiation and you may come in with a certain amount of leverage, but you may be able to build that as you're going through the negotiation and great negotiators are building as they're going and taking notes of what additional leverage they can bring to the table to help them
solidify their positioning.
I love that. And I especially love the idea of bringing others into this discussion as well, because we need those different perspectives so we can see the situation and frankly, ourselves from a different vantage point, like sometimes we are truly too close to the problem to effectively solve it.
And so it takes a lot of not just strategy, but also humility to accept our limitation, and then bring other people in to help us to perform at a higher level.
Definitely Kwame, my 13 year old daughter is one of my best people and confidants to go to from a negotiation standpoint, because she really looks at things differently, you know, and takes a different approach and provides me with additional ideas as I'm going into these negotiations.
Yeah, it's so smart, because it's, it's fascinating, because everybody, one of the things I like to say is that everybody's a genius at something, you know, and if we talk to somebody long enough, we find they're genius.
And sometimes the best people to talk to about these situations are people who don't have specific expertise in the realm that we're talking about, because the people who do have that specific expertise, they're kind of anchored in their way of doing things.
So they, they even struggle to think outside the box, because they don't see it as a box.
It just is what it is for them.
So I think that's that's really powerful to think about recruiting other people into this effort as well.
Definitely, definitely.
There's a couple other questions that I always ask, because I'm going into these negotiations.
The first one is really, what does that other party value?
When I'm looking at it from a negotiation perspective, I want to understand what specifically those values are, because oftentimes, those values lead to what specifically is my leverage within this negotiation, for instance, if I'm negotiating with a really large party, you know, someone who I may stereotypically
think has more of the power, a lot of times it's growth.
And how can I bring growth then into that negotiation.
So I want to be thinking about it for through that perspective.
And then a couple other questions that I focus on are how do they express those values?
And what words or actions are they using?
Because as great negotiators, we want to be able to take those values.
And we want to be able to really use the words that they're using back in that negotiation, because they can relate better to the words that they're using than the words that we're using.
So if they feel that it's directly in correlation with those values, and how they specifically position those values, that helps build leverage as we're going into the negotiation.
And then also looking at some of those nonverbals, looking at the actions that they're actually bringing to the table within that.
And then how do they express their company identity?
Because I want to be able to take that into this negotiation and really use that in the negotiation to make sure that you know, there's nothing I'm missing from a leverage perspective.
And the last aspect that I always want to focus on from a question standpoint is what is motivating the actual person, or parties that I'm negotiating with?
Because we are all agents of the companies we're negotiating for.
And at the end of the day, everyone has something that is motivating them, whether it may be ego, whether it may be status, new promotion, whatever it may be within that there's something that's motivating them directly.
And I also want to understand what that is, because that's also another layer within that negotiation that I need to make sure that I'm hitting as I'm going through this negotiation.
So it's not just about the company they represent, but also that individual aspect of that person that I'm negotiating with.
Oh, this is so good.
This is great. It's really great.
And I love the fact that with these questions, we're approaching it from so many different angles.
So for example, like thinking about the values of the company, but then not just what the values are, but specifically how do they express those values?
What specific words do they use?
And then what actions demonstrate those same values?
I don't think that most negotiators would factor that into the conversation about leverage.
When it comes to how do I discover or create leverage in this negotiation?
But again, really what we're is what we're doing is we're layering on leverage.
So we can get leverage from multiple areas, multiple facets of the interaction of the companies, whatever the dynamic happens to be, there are different places where we can get leverage.
And so for us as negotiators, it's about piling on as many different layers of leverage as we can before we get to the negotiation table.
So we can be positioned well during the negotiation to use those effectively.
Exactly. Oh, this is good.
Layers of leverage.
You gotta love the alliteration.
It'll help people to remember.
That is great. Okay.
Now, let's say we do have the leverage.
Now, a lot of people think, hey, if I have the leverage, I've gone through Daniel's framework here and lo and behold, I have all of the leverage.
I have a ton of leverage here.
A lot of times people will say, well, I guess really that's it.
I'm in a really good position and let's move forward.
But there are some things that you need to consider strategically when you are the party with more leverage.
What would you say are some of those things to keep in mind?
So you're still negotiating responsibly with the leverage too?
Sure. So I would say, you still have to be very careful that you don't allow ego to get to your head within this.
Because as we talked about earlier on in this podcast, it's very important that you understand that leverage is constantly shifting.
Right? Leverage is constantly changing and you don't want to go in.
You don't want to go in and assume that because my team is undefeated, I'm going to do really well against the team that's not.
When you bring that into the mix, you're missing out on so much opportunity because the other party is going to be doing their due diligence.
They're going to be creating leverage as you go throughout that process, listening actively to what you're stating and using that in the negotiation.
And you don't want to end up in a situation where your ego got to you so much that you're outplayed within this negotiation, because the other side truly is doing their due diligence and they're coming and building more leverage as they go throughout that process that may actually cause your leverage
not to be relevant in this particular negotiation.
Exactly. Exactly. Because ego gives us different kinds of blind spots, right?
It's like, okay, this person is not a problem.
And then now it becomes a big problem.
Right? We don't do that.
The other thing to keep in mind is the reality of revenge too.
I remember I was doing this training and one of the folks in the training said they told this really funny story.
They, it was a procurement expert, and he was negotiating with a supplier.
Supplier had to leverage at that time.
And they were doing, they made a unilateral price increase.
And the guy was, he said, essentially, I resorted to begging.
I'm like, please don't do this.
Listen, I don't have an episode on begging, but you don't want to be in that position now.
And so the guy that they went forward and continued with that price increase.
And we have to remember too, in these negotiations, a lot of the negotiations are really, you know, continuous negotiations, right?
We can't view them only as just a one time competitive negotiation going in because so much of it is built upon relationships.
So what you do within one negotiation is going to continue to come back, you know, in future negotiations.
And I think specifically, I've got a lot of experience in medical device, with medical device, you know, it's, it's very difficult to switch suppliers, you know, within those negotiations, because you end up with a lot of costs and additional qualifications that have to occur during that.
So as we look at those, we're continually, continuously collaborating with the same suppliers over and over and you're going to have multiple different negotiations over the course of the business duration of the relationship.
So we want to be able to kind of think about how does this how is this specific negotiation?
And what's happened within that going to impact future negotiations as we have as well?
Absolutely. Yeah, because the thing about that situation, the fact that we have ongoing relationships, is people don't forget those types of things.
And if people feel like they've been mistreated, the reality is, they feel almost justified in returning the favor once the dynamic shift.
And that's what happened with that guy.
He said, I was so excited.
Two years later, when I got to call him back, and he said that he started off the call with, do you remember two years ago, he started the call.
And the thing that's really fascinating about that, the psychology of vengeance, they have some really interesting studies about it, is that it is a pleasurable experience, just causing pain to somebody else who you perceive caused you pain in the past.
And you will do that, even if it puts yourself in a disadvantaged position, even if it's not really objectively in your best interest to do that, you're going to do that.
And so you can't even rely on somebody's like their position, or their or their true interests to save you at that point.
So when you have the when you have the leverage, you have to use it responsibly, because at the end of the day, the relationship still matters.
Now, and when you think on your career, I know you've had some really interesting negotiations.
And of course, we are going to respect confidentiality and everything here.
When you think about some of the most interesting or creative moves that you've seen made by yourself or anybody, as it relates to shifting the dynamics of leverage, what are some things that come to mind?
So I think in terms of that, and that's a great question.
You know, I think, when I think back to some of those situations, it's those people that are really listening throughout the negotiation, are able to take and apply directly, something specifically that I may have said in passing, that really I didn't even think about when I had dropped that into the negotiation.
And they're able to use that to create leverage that I hadn't thought of, or even known existed prior to that negotiation and prior going into going into that.
That's brilliant. I think, for me, one of the things that I love about that point, Danielle, is that it shows just how important the fundamentals are.
Because when we're thinking about leverage, this is something that's a bit more advanced.
When we think about our everyday negotiations that we might have at work with colleagues, we're probably not thinking about it in terms of leverage.
But when we start to get into those higher level conversations, now the consideration of leverage is brought back into play.
But it's like they say, the fundamentals never go out of style.
At the end of the day, you might have all of these cool gadgets and all of these cool, the new technology and everything like that.
You might be making some high level moves away from the table, when it comes to trying to reset the negotiation table.
But at the end of the day, if you're doing a great job of listening specifically to what people are saying, even if it seems to be tangential or inconsequential, you never know when that's going to come back up and provide you with an opportunity to change the game.
Exactly. And so many of us miss some of those little nuggets dropped into the negotiation, right?
Because we're always thinking, okay, the person's making a statement, I'm thinking about how am I going to respond to that statement, right?
And I don't want to look stupid within this negotiation or to the other party.
So now I'm shutting off my ears, because I'm thinking, okay, how am I going to respond to whatever that aspect is, right?
And so often we miss that in negotiations is, we're not listening to everything actively, because, you know, phones are buzzing, beeping, you know, text messages are coming in, emails are coming in, we're flooded with so much distraction that we really have to step back and, you know, actively think
and actively listen to what the other party is saying, so that we can bring that into the negotiation.
Because that is where the leverage comes in that we're trying to develop.
100%. And I'm so glad that you said that.
And I don't want the listeners to miss this.
Because one of the most rare intellectual resources today is focused attention.
We're more distracted than ever before.
I mean, let's use this as an example, we're having this conversation in zoom.
And so we could have other tabs open, we have I have my cell phone over here that can ding from time to time, I'm taking notes on my iPad, but that has notifications as well.
And all of these little things are pulling attention away from the actual interaction.
So when we think about negotiation strategy, when we think about conversational strategy, within all of that, we have to have a strategy for how to effectively focus, because that doesn't happen by accident anymore.
It takes an intentional effort to force out those distractions.
So you could actually focus on the person and what's actually being said in the moment.
Exactly. Yeah. Oh, this is so good.
This is so good. Okay.
Now, before we before we wrap up, when we think about leverage, are there any other things that come to mind when you think about things that people often miss or misunderstand about the concept?
You know, I think the one area is as you're trying to build this leverage, you're really seeking to try to make yourself larger within that negotiation.
So some of those really small players, you know, I always think of it from the standpoint of a lot of times you're in a situation where your company is not well known.
Or, you know, you're having to wear a business development hat to help others to understand what specifically it is your company is doing or what you're offering within that negotiation.
So as you're looking at that, you've got to figure out how do I make myself and what I bring to this table larger so that I can show that I have more leverage within this.
So, you know, really focusing on where can I build coalitions or alliances?
How can I increase that collective bargaining power that I have?
How can I get additional information, you know, about this other party?
You know, has there been anyone within my company that's negotiated with them before?
Is there anyone in my, you know, network that knows this person or has negotiated with them in the past so that I can actually bring that information into this negotiation and really build upon that build upon my knowledge, my expertise and really help me to create more leverage and perceived leverage
within this. This is great.
You see all these notes I'm taking.
This is really great because what I'm realizing is that in order for us to truly harness the power of leverage and our ability to acquire and build it, we have to be really not just curious by asking questions and listening effectively, but also curious in the research that we do beforehand to try to
figure out unique angles, but we also have to be really resourceful.
And one of the things that we have to realize is that we don't get bonus points for not using our resources.
Like when it comes to the people around us, tapping into their expertise, asking them questions, asking them for help and their opinions, right?
The brain power of the collective is always going to be bigger than the individual, right?
And so it's really fascinating to think about the diversity of the sources of leverage.
And again, when we think about it in terms of like layering on that leverage, then we don't think about it as just one thing.
Oh, this is my supplier, their increasing price leverage.
That's a single source.
That is leverage. No, no, no, no, no.
What we're realizing is that there are so many different layers to this leverage question, that it really makes these interactions a lot more interesting.
And when you're in a position when you don't feel as though you have the leverage, I think we should take it as almost like a fun, investigatory challenge.
Okay. My, my amygdala, right?
My emotional part of my brain is telling me this is something to be afraid of, because I don't have apparent leverage.
Okay, that's cute brain.
I see where you took me, I'm going to go someplace else.
And I'm going to be intentional about finding creative ways to layer on more leverage, so I can have more of an advantage at the negotiation table.
Oh, this is good. I am.
I'm going to be bold here and try to take the emotional leverage of this moment and say, Danielle, this is not going to be the first time you're the only time you're on the podcast.
This is too good. This is too good.
I really appreciate this.
And I know the listeners do as well.
And they're probably saying, Listen, I need to get in touch with this Danielle person and figure out how I can get just a smidgen of that brilliance.
If people want to connect with you or follow you, what's the best way to get in contact?
Definitely connect with me on LinkedIn.
Perfect. Cool. Everybody will put links to Danielle's LinkedIn in the description.
Danielle Hanson, thank you so much.
This was this was really, really great.
Thank you so much, Kwame.
I appreciate it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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