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Melissa, thanks for joining us today.
I am so excited for this conversation.
Thank you for having me.
Yes, it is my pleasure. I'm excited that we're actually going to do it.
Listeners, last time we tried to do this, we just hung out for half an hour.
So we need to actually get this done today.
It was kind of like step-brothers.
Do we should become best friends?
Yep. We're going to karate in the garage.
Yep. That was it. It was a blast.
It was a blast. I feel like that.
So for our listeners who don't know you, how would you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yes, so I am Melissa Doman.
I'm everybody called me Mel.
I'm an organizational psychologist, former clinical mental health therapist, and author of Get Ready For This Melphal.
Yes, you can talk about mental health at work.
Here's why and how to do it really well.
So the core of what I do is that I teach companies, leaders, and individuals how to realistically and constructively talk about mental health in the workplace.
And I also focus on navigating uncertainty and team dynamics and communication.
So my clients range really large organizations like Google, Estade Lauderdow Jones, to Mid-Size organizations like Orlando City Soccer Club, all the way down to teeny tiny companies and everything in between across industries and around this blue dot we call home.
I love this. And now Mel actually, I want to get into two words that you just said in that intro.
You said, how to talk about this realistically and constructively.
Some of my favorite words.
Yes, explain. Well, listen, we've done a ton of work leading up to now and where we are in the space time continuum around destigmatizing, talking about mental health and mental illness.
There has been loads of education to teach people about what it really is, not what we think it is because those are not always the same.
And on top of that, why is so important to talk about it at work?
Now this, that all needed to happen to get to where we are now.
But then you can't just say conversations are important.
You have to teach people how to do it.
And so that's what I've really focused my work on in the last few years is that kept hearing from people, well, I want to do it.
But like, how do we do this?
And that's what led me to write the book.
I was like, well, someone's got to do it.
It's going to be me. And so I wrote the book literally as a playbook that anybody should be able to pick up regardless of what industry you work in or regardless of tenure and seniority.
And it should be able to learn where have we come from?
Where are we now? What are the barriers to these conversations?
How do I actually have this conversation?
How did the pandemic influence us having this conversation?
High levels of stress or continued global systemic racism?
I want people to actually have a guidebook.
If you're not able to learn elsewhere how to do it, I'll give you something to teach you how.
And so the reason I hone in on realistic and constructive is not all conversations are set out with realism in mind.
Not all conversations end up being constructive.
And I think that's because, in my humble opinion, that the expectations set around it and the lack of intended outcomes is what sometimes makes those conversations not realistic and not constructive.
And the last thing for my harang is that before I studied psychology, I studied sociology.
So I think that as the systems in which we exist evolve, so do the conversations.
The goal is not to create positive mental health at work all the time because that's not how life is.
Life is difficult. Life has ups and downs.
Our general well-being has ups and downs.
So why not have realistic conversations about that instead of the goal being creating positive cultures of mental health at work?
That's fascinating. It makes a lot of sense.
It sounds like it's kind of tied to that the whole concept of toxic positivity too.
Oh yes, I love me some toxic positivity and how harmful that is.
Yeah, it's very well-intentioned but it can go wrong really quickly.
That's right. Nothing like hearing some good old-fashioned platitudes and silver linings when you just want to feel bad about something objectively horrible.
There was this one time somebody on my team, you know, we have families, children, things like that.
And she's like, I'm sick, my kids are sick, and the message I sent to her was, well, it's okay because, and I actually said this, insert unhelpful platitudes here.
But all seriousness, I'm sorry this is happening.
Take the day off you're good.
But I think a lot of times people say they think that they can and should fix the problem in their mind.
But sometimes life is just objectively hard and there's nothing you can say or do to make that better.
And in fact, by trying to make it better by saying nice things, you make it work.
Oh yeah, oh yeah. And the fixing impulse that a lot of us have.
Now we are conditioned across a lot of cultures that good help looks like fixing.
Good help looks like providing solutions.
Good help looks like moving people on from uncomfortable states of being so they can feel good.
Great intention, harmful execution.
And so sometimes good help just looks like letting people feel what they need to feel and just listening.
Now that doesn't mean encouraging them to stay in those feelings indefinitely without forward inertia because then they get stuck.
But sometimes you just got to be where you are.
So I sincerely hope you've seen the film inside out.
And you should have been okay.
So we all know those films are secretly for adults.
And they have the sequel coming out in June and I am tickled with excitement because the mood board is expanding.
The emotions are expanding.
And the whole reason I'm bringing this up is if you look at the feeling wheel from Dr.
Gloria Wilcox, you'll notice that all the emotions were pre-programmed with out of the box.
A lot of them are not very positive.
And the reason for that is because it signposts to us and other people what are the sorts of cocktails of reactions that we should have access to for the evolutionary purpose to let us know what other people know.
What's going on in our environment?
If we need support, if we need help or something is wrong.
What is so bad about that?
It's all there naturally.
And I was like, well, thank God for it.
I know. Because people aren't listening to me.
So maybe they'll listen to a children's movie.
Well, they're listening to you now, Melissa.
I'm trying on my very literary soap box.
Yes, I like it. And let's stay on this soap box too.
Because now everybody's listening and they're saying, okay, now I'm recognizing there are some challenges that they're adjustments that I can make.
Now, when you're thinking about, let me just pull a term out of nowhere.
Mental health, it work, conversational literacy.
Where should we start? Gosh, that is a term out of nowhere.
I don't think I've heard that one before.
It's not like I trademarked it or anything.
So the reason I trademarked that word salad on sexy phrase is because, you know, that's what I really think that people need to focus on is that if we are going to talk about this in the workplace, it is a form of conversational literacy and it is a skill like any other skill.
And so I think by approaching it that way, instead of focusing on it as an optional wellness endeavor, we're going to make a lot more progress and a lot more forward movement.
Because if you focus on it as a literacy endeavor and connect it to professional development, it gives people this sense of accountability.
Like, oh, I need the skill like other skills in the workplace.
And because it's a skill I'm developing, it's something that I can practice and monitor over time to see how I'm demonstrably improving.
And when it comes to taking that approach, I think it really increases that sense of responsibility and accountability because when you think about the term, you know, literacy, that word is taken much more seriously across a variety of contexts as opposed to wellness where people, like, what does that mean anymore?
It is such a warped, misused, ambiguous amorphous concept that is talking about mental part of wellness.
Yes. Does that actually create concrete change by nesting it under that, in my humble opinion?
No. And I, you don't have eight hours.
For me to talk about that, but I, you know, I think that if we're going to call it a skill that we are expecting people to develop, whether it's leaders or for junior folks or whoever it is, you have to have something to name it.
What is the skill that they are developing and trying to demonstrably improve on over time?
This is what it's called, mental health at work, conversational literacy.
And I went on a long keynote soap box for an hour about it, at South by South last few weeks ago.
And I was pleased that people joined me in my theoretical insanity.
And we're like, oh, this makes sense.
Let's do it. I love it. And it's so important, Mel, because there are people out here who are well-meaning, who want to be supportive, want to be empathetic leaders, but how?
How do we do this? And when it comes to these sensitive topics, a lot of times we become just stuck because we want to say something, but we don't want to say the wrong thing.
So we end up saying nothing.
And for those leaders who are listening, or just people who are impacted by mental health in some type of way, how do we go about having these conversations about this sensitive issue?
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So I think the first thing to think about is oftentimes, and I have a serious problem with this, 100% of the ones is usually put on the supporter, the person who's doing the supporting, or solely on leaders or solely on executive leadership.
Now that doesn't mean those people don't hold responsibility.
Of course they do. But a conversation, last time I picked, is a two way street.
And so I think the first thing to approach is that there's work to be done on both sides, both as the supporter and also as the person who I'd be sharing about what it is they need, because no offense to people who believe in mind readers.
But the average person can't read people's minds isn't psychic, clairvoyant and any of those things.
And so if you're going to be sharing about your mental health or sharing with someone what you need, the type of help you need, you also have some responsibility in how you articulate that, because you can't fault people for not knowing how to help you if you don't articulate it clearly.
And I realize that might sound like a very unpopular opinion, but I believe that all chronologically aged adults notice I say chronologically aged on mentally aged, because those are not always the same thing.
And I think that barring that there is some significant obstacle in your way, which absolutely does exist for articulating the type of support you need, what's going on for you.
There are lots of reasons that's difficult for people, and I'm not just counting that.
Barring all of that, if you're going to struggle, you can't hold other people responsible for that.
You need to be able to say what's going on and what you need, hopefully in a psychologically safe environment that's not going to make you regret that.
But if you're going to bring it up for yourself in the workplace, don't just be word salad into the infinitivist.
What am I going to share?
Why am I sharing this? Who am I sharing this with?
What is the key information they need to know without sharing lots of superfluous detail that will confuse them?
What are the intended outcomes that I'm looking for?
These are the sorts of questions to do that back end prep, so you don't just go to someone at work and go, and they go, I, it's kind of like Wolfarel and Taladeganites.
He's like, what do I do with my hands?
Where do I put my hands? Do I just do I go like this?
I love Wolfarel. So that's on the side of the person he's sharing.
If you're supporting, now if this is colleague to colleague, the big thing that I really try to get people to remember, we are not trying to turn you into workplace therapists.
That is both unhelpful and illegal and unethical.
Just trying to give you the skill set about how to support somebody in a helpful way within the context of the workplace.
Now, to even mind that the help that this person may need might not be something you can provide.
There are some conversations that are fine, colleague to colleague.
There are some that are better suited, leader to team member.
There's some that really need to be HR to employ.
And in some cases, no one at work can help this person and they need to speak to a therapist or a doctor or a psychiatrist or something like that.
So when it comes to supporting, let's say, a colleague, one of the most helpful questions you can ask upfront is, do you want me to listen or do you want help sorting through this?
Because nothing feels worse than when you just want some of the listen and they're just steamrolling you with their fixing thick.
That just doesn't feel very good.
So really listening, normalizing their experience while also recognizing their individual experience.
Don't offer advice. That makes it about you instead of listening to this person who's in front of you unless they're asking for advice or another reason is if they're going to something that's really similar to something you've gone through, other people you know have been through.
The question is, I know somebody who went through this.
Would it be useful if I share this based on what you're going to be totally saying now?
Another thing is try not to get distracted.
It doesn't feel good if you're talking about mental health at work and someone's checking their texts or their email or they're not looking at you.
Like that doesn't feel good.
It makes that person feel like you're tolerating their disclosure as opposed to actively listening to it.
And also really asking just how can how can I be most helpful?
You know a lot of people all lifetime without being asked that question and it sucks.
It really sucks. And showing a sense of curiosity about what they're sharing because you could literally be the first person ever to actually care about what it is they're saying.
And also depending on how things you know develop, if you're really not the best person to help them, you know one of the best things you can do is encouraging people to speak to folks who can if and want to read it.
So let's say for example that they disclose that they're struggling with a mental health condition and they need a accommodation at work.
Colleagues can't help with that.
The thing that they have to do then and if you need a accommodation at work based on a diagnosed mental health condition that is protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act.
So they would need to speak with someone in HR.
That's not something they can help with.
So sometimes being a good helper means triaging someone to the right outlet you can help them.
If you are a leader who's trying to support a team member it doesn't matter how rebel you are people tend to look to their leaders for permission for spoken rules on spoken rules and things that you can and cannot talk about.
One of the surefire ways to make sure your team members feel like they can talk to you about their mental health is good old-fashioned role modeling.
I'm not saying you have to share your entire mental health history but how are they going to feel comfortable coming to you if you're just constantly stoic and kind of dehumanizing yourself with taking the job title.
So part of that is going to be role modeling.
You also have to keep power dynamics in mind that people telling their leader who's in a powered influence and position who does have an impact over their literal professional livelihood can be terrifying.
So if you're going to support a team member reminding them that your views of them won't change that you are there to help and to listen and that if you're not the right person you'll get them connected to the one who is and also really making sure you know what would you like me to do with this information how can I be most helpful.
Now these conversations are not always going to go A to B.
They're not always going to be tied up with a nice little bow.
Some of them will be very complicated and some of them may not go well.
I will be doing you a disservice in lying if I said otherwise.
But when you are supporting a team member around mental health at work we also have to remember that just because someone struggles with their mental health doesn't mean they can't do the job.
It doesn't mean that you need to view them differently because most folks who struggle with mental health or a mental health condition are very high functioning.
So what I mean by that is you may not even necessarily know that they're struggling unless they told you people can struggle with mental health and be good at the job and maintain this and maintain that.
So by reassuring them that by being open and honest and telling you about their struggles that you're not going to doubt their efficacy and their role these are some of the most powerful things you can do.
Now granted again there are outliers to these conversations but these are kind of the general best practices and there are pages and pages and pages and pages of this detailed in my book but I am conscious of time and I've been on a total blue street for the last several minutes.
And I have been taking a lot of notes now.
This is a master class and I think really if we're just going to summarize these key points first it's just recognizing that everybody in the conversation bears some responsibility and accountability for the success of conversation.
I think that's really important because the person who needs help can just take a moment and think through how they can communicate that effectively making sure they're talking to the right person being clear on what their needs are and then the other person can say all right I'm not here to save the day I'm here to empathetically listen and then if they need support
offer support if they just need an ear I'm going to offer that too and I think for a lot of people who are let's say listening to the podcast I'm going to make some assumptions here they probably are the kind of person who seeks to learn more and they're listening to a podcast on negotiation so they want to learn how to communicate well so I'm assuming that a fair amount
of them are good listeners another assumption that's the hope that the hope right and then another assumption is that if somebody struggling and they have not found somebody that they can talk to it's probably really refreshing to talk to somebody who listens empathetically and then they will be drawn to that empathetic ear so I want to go to that that workplace
therapist danger you are that empathetic listener and you find yourself in a situation where oh I'm not getting work done because I'm just sitting here listening and I've become a quasi therapist in this moment yeah how do you effectively set a boundary oh I love that question oh I love that question and I post a lot about it on LinkedIn actually because people like
to get things for people who are unpredictable roles so what I mean by that is that people who are kind of the the workplace helper or the fixer or the consigliery you know whatever you want to call it when they're serving in those roles people have this unconscious expectation or sometimes conscious that that person will continue supporting in that role without
protest now that bad for for two reasons because when you're constantly going to somebody with the expectation of them protecting you fixing it making it feel better it sometimes will absolve individuals will self absolve of the responsibility to maybe self-sooth or learn how to deal with things or maybe not constantly going to that person now it's nice to be
able to have someone who you can trust you can listen to but that can often become a one way support structure where the person who's always doing the supporting who shows up for them who shows up for them and what often happens is not only are they not getting their work done but they also get emotionally burned out from being so supportive constantly and then let's
say that in a lot of cases they won't speak up to people when they need support because they oftentimes when you're a helper like that will also feel like you're burdened to others if you want help which is I know it's ridiculous but it is a connection that has always existed that people who tend to be helpers often feel like a burden to others for wanting help that good
old people please are stuff and I am a people pleaser in recovery myself so it's really great over here and on top of that when you do draw those boundaries you may get a variety of of responses that you may not have been prepared for so there may be some people who are a little shocked maybe they feel a little rejected not for you to sit with there's other people who then
may criticize you because some people really don't like boundaries boundaries make them upset boundaries make them feel rejected they want to cross those boundaries so you will fill those needs for them but then there's other people who they'll kind of snap out of it and go can I can I be helpful to you like what what can I do for you so I think there's this important
expectation to set that if you are that quasi workplace therapists which by the way stop it right now stop it that when you start drawing those boundaries you don't know what sort of response you're going to get now it's all about statement of intention in my mind so let's use a good old fashioned example that is a common common common common thing I've heard from lots
of people so you know how when you are supporting someone at work and they love gathering opinions and venting about the same thing but they don't ever seem to really make the changes that you keep telling them about over and over and over and over again you ever encountered that before I'm seeing you not never I've never never never never never never because complaining
about something is way easier than doing something about it changes hard if it was easy I wouldn't have a job and so let's say that someone has been coming to you as their workplace therapist for months about the same thing and you keep thinking oh you know they're they're gonna get there they're gonna get there which according to the stages of change they they're
so you have pre contemplation contemplation preparation action maintenance it's actually based on this originally clinical concept called motivational interviewing which originally was used for counseling for people who struggle with addiction but then they then realize oh these are stages of change we can apply to any human being regardless of what they
strive for which I love I geek out on on motivational interviewing so that person is clearly showing you they're not actually ready to make a change it's just when they experience at this comfort they want you to make it better temporarily so if it was me now keep in mind I'm more direct than most so take what I'm saying with a big ol grain of salt and let's say that I've
been this workplace therapist for months and it's affecting my work this person just keeps coming back I would say something to the effect of I really appreciate that you're struggling with this and I've been happy to support you over the last few months I'm struggling to understand why we're continuing to have the same conversation and it doesn't feel like anything
is changing and I don't want to assume the reason as why I do want to support you it also doesn't feel fair to me that you keep coming back for the same saying consistently but haven't done anything to change it so can you help me understand what's going on because I really don't feel like we can continue this way breathe breathe I do like people clutch their butts they're
like I would never I would never and I was like what you can you're just scared too so that you'll notice I'm not finger pointing I'm not name calling I'm not making assumptions about why they're saying what they're saying what they've done what they've not done I'm inviting a conversation as to understand the motivations and I'm also telling them the impact it's
having on me and why I am unwilling to do it further now not everybody's gonna respond positively to that I can I can guarantee that not everybody's gonna respond positively to that some people may appreciate that you've raised it that way and some people are gonna get pissed off but that that's really the method to follow here's the observable things I'm I'm seeing
I don't understand why it's happening this way this is how it's impacting me I really don't want to do this going forward but I'm inviting a conversation so we can change his pattern and I would like you to drive me in that use with caution he's so powerful Mel because really you're just you're stating facts you're not accusing anybody of anything no and you're saying
hey this cannot go forward let's talk about this and one of the things that people are afraid of is the response that they get from other people and you that's something you've already addressed but I want to take it a step further and just recognize that conflict is an opportunity and oh yes I love this conflict yeah this is this is this is data so if they respond really
well that's really important for me to know that means this person is is interested in change they care about me and the relationship all right we can have this conversation and working out yeah but if the person really gets upset and makes it all about themselves and they're in difference to the thing that you're experiencing as a result of this constant conversation then
you say oh I see this is really more about you and oh yes me and that's very good information to know oh yes and when I was at South five few weeks ago I met one of my feedback heroes Kim Scott and call her the goddess of feedback because she wrote the radical candor book and basically the headline of that is I care enough about you to give you this difficult feedback and if someone
is allergic to that it'll be clear very quickly and I was speaking with Kim at South by about the importance of radical candor in mental health conversations at work and how it's so important to take that approach as opposed to some of the other methods like ruin this empathy of nocturus aggression you know those sorts of things but it's like here enough about you
to give you this difficult feedback and if someone keeps abusing your listening ear or self-sabotaging that's not for you to hold and it may be untrumped feedback but if you're going to give it then I'm using a radical candor approach and make it as constructive as possible incredible this this has been a masterclass my friend I can talk to you forever I swear I know
this is great and we will definitely have you on again because there is so much more so much more to explore but before you go remind the listeners about your work you're speaking the LinkedIn course and the book and how they can get in touch for sure so I am a strategic advisor I do training I do fireside interviews I do workshops media at all and basically if you want
some help in your organization or on mental health at work navigating a certain to your team dynamics on your Dell work internationally on a state level on gosh state and national level both virtually and in person so please you know feel free to reach out if you want me to another wolf arrow reference come and crack some necks and cash and genetics now if you want if you
want me to come and then help kind of change some of those patterns that are helping that are happening in the workplace I'd be really really happy to you can reach me at MelissaDomin.com I'm also findable on LinkedIn my Instagram is at the Wandering Mel and my book is yes you can talk about mental health at work here's why and how to do it really well available online
across all major retailers and my most recent LinkedIn course which is ultra spicy and I love it is navigating the emotional toll and stress of leadership and you'll hear yours truly on there just going on a variety of spicy herrings but I'd love to hear from you please so free to reach out so we can move the needle one conversation at a time well this has been incredible
really appreciate you coming on the show oh thanks for having me man I can't wait to come back wait wait wait wait wait now before you sign off I have something to tell you that I've never told you before just kidding I've told you before but you should listen to it again I want you to know about negotiate anything premium imagine all of the things that you love about our
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