I feel like a goal is the best non-habit producing non-addictive form ofhappiness.
Like I rarely meet somebody where Igo, I think you could try that and they try it for a month or they try it for three months and theygo,yeah, pursuing that goal made mesadder.
Like usually they come back andgo, I tried this one thing and it turned out this second thing and this thirdthing.
Start with a fungoal. What would that looklike?
If you gave yourselfpermission, don't make it something really difficult right out of thegate.
You can get something you enjoy because I want you to learn the rhythm of a goal and then you can do all sorts of types of goals once you'relike,no, I can do thisthing.
I want to help you find a goal you love so much it makes Netflixboring.
So how do you think about goals and achieving things that really matter toyou?
If you're like mostpeople, the answer is you don't and when youdo, you're clouded by confusion and overwhelm and probably a history littered with the ghosts offailure.
Don't exactly make you feel awesome aboutyourself.
What if you could look back on your life and pinpoint the moments and accomplishments that brought you the most joy and learn from them and then use them to rediscover these peak experiences to guide you towards your best futureself.
My guest today is an oldfriend, JohnA.
Cough, New York Times bestselling author of the new book All It Takes As AGoal, The Three Step Plan to Ditch Regret and Tap Into Your MassivePotential.
John is on a pit of admission to help people set and achieve goals theylove.
He believes the key is Ditting External Pressures and truly connecting with what lights you upinside.
And as one of Inc's top 100 leadershipspeakers, he has spoken to hundreds of thousands of peopleworldwide, bringing humor and practical wisdom to unleashing your potential and he's developed and tested a goal methodology that has been refined by thousands of people over so many goals literally around the world foryears.
One that not only delivers consistentresults, but also brings joy and ease and success to the experience along theway.
And we talk about the role of joy rather than trauma and goalsetting.
We explore how fun needs to be a part of it and how to choose thequote, right fuel instead of burning out on fear andcrisis.
I have been studying and building frameworks forachievement, goals and contentment for years and I learned so much from this conversation where John will have youasking, how can I turn up the joy while reaching for mydreams?
So excited to share this conversation withyou.
I'm Johnathan Fields and this is Good LifeProject.
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I'm trying to fix something that I think isbroken.
But over theyears, it switched to lessof, I'm trying to fix something that'sbroken, and now I'm trying to open the gifts Ihave.
So that's kind of that reframed it for mewhere, youknow, because you get to a certain place where you'relike, I don't want to have a goal that's motivated to try to provesomething.
I don't want to have a goal where I'm trying to show I'm a certain way or look a certainway, or have a certain amount ofinfluence, the feel a certainway, and yougo, what's the real reason I would doit?
And so forme, there's only a couple of things I do thatwith.
Writing's one ofthem. Like I love towrite.
Speaking's one ofthem.
I told somebody the otherday, I spend my entire year to get on stage 50 times for 45minutes.
So I trade like 365 days a year for like 45hours.
And I feel like that's a great trade because I love to doit.
So the older I'vegotten, the more it's becomeabout,okay, what can Ido?
How can I encouragemyself?
How can I encourage otherpeople?
And itjust, forme, I feel like a goal is the best non-habitproducing, non-addictive form ofhappiness.
Like I rarely meet somebody where Igo, I think you could trythat.
And they try it for a month or they try it for three months and theygo, you're pursuing thatgoal, made mesadder.
Like usually they come back andgo, I tried this one thing and it turned into the second thing and this thirdthing.
So the origin of it though was I'm mid30s, I'm prettydepressed, I'm prettystuck, I've reached a careerladder, there's nowhere else togo.
We have two youngkids, Jenny'sstressed, I've jumped jobs eight times in 12years, I'm justjumping,jumping,jumping, and I startblogging.
And what happened was I didn't get more discipline because I'msmart.
I didn't get more persistent because I've got goodwillpower.
I just discovered something I loved and I wanted to throw more time atit.
So like the line I sometimes use is I want to help you find agoal.
You love somuch, it makes Netflixboring.
So that's what I'm trying to tap into more of now iswow, goals did that for me and they do it for otherpeople.
And so I get excited about that and I get excited about can I testthis, can Iexperiment?
So now I feel like a lot of it is pursued out of I think there's a lot of joy in the pursuit of agoal.
And I love that joy and I want to do it more in my own life and I want to see other people do ittoo.
So you fold the pursuit of goals into like you almost organically attach a goal to something that's pulling you from head rather than pushing you frombehind.
Something that you innately are driven to want to say yes to and it just like it gives structure toit.
I don't think everybody makes thatassociation.
I think like a lot of people almost look at goals asokay, so youknow, I'm insales, youknow, I got like my monthly quota or when I was a kid I had to get likeX, Y and Zera had to bring home anA.
I had to do this thing and it was a halftwo.
And you learned how to put your head down and make ithappen.
But I feel like so many of us by the time we hit the list really the middle years of our lives have negative associations withthis.
Yeah, and I've had to work to help people find a different word for them because some people do have a lot of baggage of agoal.
It's like they're an overbearingparent.
They had a teacher that you know they had a drill sergeantwhatever.
And so I say what about aproject?
What do we call it a projectinstead?
What do we callit? I don't really care what people callit.
They call it an intention and agreement that youknow, whatever itis, but forme, I just see it's it's a really fun easyvehicle.
So an example that would be afterCOVID, I realizedman, I just feellonely.
Like the joke I sometimes do is like I know I'm lonely when I over talk to the UPSguy.
Like when he'slike, I'mlike,hey, how are thekids?
How'sPam? And he'slike, I do I want to leave thisbox.
That's the end of ourrelationship.
I'd like toleave. And so I waslike, I need I want to connect it to peopledifferently.
I want to be a betterfriend.
But that's reallyfuzzy.
So my brain does go pretty quicklyto,okay, so what do we do withthat?
How do we make thatreal?
What does that looklike?
I think about my brain like a rock tumbler like it's a bunch of different ideas inthere.
Just tumblingaround. And if I feed it in afight.
As eventually something smooth comesout.
And so it waslike,well, what if you encourage one person a day for 30 days in arow?
Like just encouragesomebody.
And so I made a list of my friends to make iteasy.
It's another one of my big things is how do I make iteasier?
And so I waslike, I know if I try to every morning to think of afriend, that'll beoverwhelming.
So I'm going to go through myphone.
I'm going to make a list of 30people.
And so then I just started sending text messages like to mutual friends like JeremyCoward.
I said Jeremy every time I think aboutcreativity, I think of youlike,man, it'sso, youknow, like it's so fun to know you orhey,Brad, I was thinkingabout, youknow, that time we went to the footballgame.
Like they weren'tlong.
I didn't write letters that would have been overwhelming andcomplicated.
And90% of people like no onesaid, I wish you hadn't told me that today today was the worst day to tell me that90% of them said you have no idea how much I needed thattoday.
And so then I waslike,oh,wow, I was a better friend at the end ofthat.
Like I felt connected to people and coffees came out ofthat.
So I like to take desires andgo, I have thisdesire.
What's a vehicle that will get me closer to thatdesire?
How can I doit? How can I live itout?
And I think people have a hard time with desire or I think a lot of us are divorced fromdesire.
We don't know how to expressit.
We say things we think we should like instead of things we actually dolike.
And so I like taking a real desire and then making it tangible for me to actually accomplishit.
And that makes a lot ofsense.
Imean, it's interesting when you talk about the word desire also because I agree a lot of us do have some form of negative association with theword.
And I think in part because depending on yourupbringing, yourcommunity, yourculture, like whatever your beliefsare, there are often sets of teachings or ideas that kind of say desiresbad.
Youknow, a lot of Eastern tradition depends how you translateit.
But there is a notion that desire is a form of attachment andattachment, especially to like a particular end is a badthing.
This is where suffering comes from inlife.
So we should dissociate ourselves with both the outcome and the feeling along the way and just show up and be here and embrace and be grateful for what we haven't be grateful for every breath every step along theway.
And it's always struck me as interesting because I oftenwonder, is that a falsedichotomy?
Like, do wereally, is it an either or thing or can it be a yes and I don't think it's an either or I think the older I get the more I hold two opposite beliefs in my hands at the sametime.
And I learn kind of the maturity of gray areas where Igo,yeah, I like I had somebody say tome,well, what do you say about all these leaders who have lived into their potential and chased all the desires and they've wrecked theirlives.
And I wouldsay,well, I don't think that you have to I think you can fully open your gifts and fully be connected to thepresent.
And you can desire other things and still appreciate the moment like forme, I don't think it's either or and I also mybackground, myfaith, tradition growing up as aChristian, their work kind of teachings like being successful is against the teachings ofJesus.
And then you actually read the Bible and it's full of likeno, ask a knock and receive and youknow, like your desires are too small like go allin.
So forme, I really had togo,OK, I'm going to be brave enough todesire.
And if it leads tosuffering, I think that's a goodsuffering.
But my goal isn't the elimination of me having suffering like my goal is to be vulnerable enough to have a desire to me desire takes vulnerability like I know like when I'mcynical, I'm not expressing desire when I'm being toocool, I'm not expressingdesire.
But like for me to goman, I that thing I want I really wanted that thing to work and it just didn't work like it didn't come through not that Igo, I didn't desire it so I don't feel the suffering I'd much rather goman, I poured everything I had and it just didn't work and I'm going to process that and I'm going to grow from that I'm going to learn fromthat, but I don't see that type of suffering as a negativething.
I think you can be fully content and fully hopeful for otherthings, I don't think that a desire has to beselfish, I don't think that it has to be you taking something from somebodyelse, I don't youknow, I have a ton of desires for mykids, I'm also very content with where they are like I have desires for them and you open yourself up trick tremendous suffering when you have akid, but it comes with tremendous love like that's one of the hardest things is when a friend is mean to them or they don't get into a college or something like they getit.
But I would never trade that for the feeling of the love I get with these kids so I think that's an example of two things in this you know two opposite things in yourhands, tremendous love you open yourself up to thekid, but also the potential for tremendouspain, but I wouldn't tradeit.
Yeah, so agree with that I started I don't know where pop into my head started using the phrase a couple years back gratefulyearning.
You can you're in for somethingyeah, and also be grateful for what you have and where you are and who you like everything that is with you in the moment at the sametime, but that doesn't mean like one doesn't sever the other you know you can be grateful and be present and love and still want something different or still want something more still aspire to a different state or place oroutcome.
I'm not done like I just don't so people say like okay well when did you know you'd arrive and I always feel like I don't agree withthat.
Do you ever know like I want to keep writing I want to keep having these conversations like that's where you and I overlap on a lot of the things we believe about is okay there wouldn't be an amount of money where you would stop being curious like I know you you I mean we haven't seen each other in a while but I know you well enough that there wouldn't be an amount of money that somebody could pay for your curiosity where you would gookay.
I got the amount I'm done with curiosity like for you you want to arrive at the end of curiosity so that doesn't mean your discontent it means you're curious it means you're interested it means you're alive so yeah I just think that's a really fun way to live and it's not to say that I can't get stuck like I can get insecure I can chase things for the wrong reason like I'm capable of all that it's a daily thing it's not like I figured it out and now I'm moving on I can see myself miss opportunities or get jealous when somebody else getsit.
I have to kind of pause and go what am I doing but I just think I love grateful yearning100% yeah a lot of people know research is no or with us may have sent me high who really became known as he coined the phrase flow and did a lot of research it is a social scientist around this state of flow but part of his research also was studying where that showed that people are at their happiest not when they're kicking back to the end ofcuriosity.
Not when they're kicking back and doing nothing not when they're in the couch and watching TV but when they're aspiring towards something that is meaningful to them when they're actually exerting effort and it's counterintuitive because a lot of people like I'm going to work my whole life so I get to that point where I get to donothing.
And it turns out that the research shows that is actually our least happiest state even though we think that maybe that's the thing we're working towards that's when things tumble into a dark place in life for a lot of people so where there's something in us is just beings that is wired to aspire and that again that doesn't mean an oriented way or exploited oriented way or like it's got to be connected to something is genuinely like meaningful to us but there is something in most people that says we flourish more as human beings when we're striving towards something and we give more and we're engaged more and we're present more and the research shows that but so do every conversation I have with a 68 year old who's back in the workforce you know like sometimes when you speak at events you get a car service like the client will have a car service and I would say50% ofthem.
Our men in their late 60s that early 70s ago yeah I was a machine chop owner for 20 years 30 years I retired we tried the Florida thing we tried the me watching law and order all day thing we tried to go think didn't work I miss people and I miss people and I was like I'm not going to be a car service so now like this is a fun thing for me I get to go all over my city I get to drive and they go I came for a second chapter I came for a second thing so yeah I really do agree with that and I think that's again like I'm 48 so I've got years left hopefully but I'm not thinking about what's the end where I stop writing or I stop whatever I think things will change but I hope I'm still curious and I'm still engaged and I still have purpose I heard a phrase once and somebody said you need to find your right to be a car service and I'm still engaged and I still have a car service and I'm still engaged and I still have a car service and I'm still engaged and I still have a car service and I'm 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I want to get into some of your methodology because you have been deep into the process of exploring and achievement and striving towards and completing goals for literally as long as I've known you in different forms and different shapes teaching inviting people intocommunity.
New book which really focuses on a methodology in a way that I haven't seen you lay it out in this way all it takes is agoal.
And certainly in the opening pages there's you sort of throw down a gauntlet and you take on a little bit of a sacredcow, which is this notion of like vision walls things likethis, which has become really popular as like the make it visual but everything you dream of like up on this thing put up on that is the thing that is going to quote motivate you to actually make this thing happen or depending on your sort of metaphysical belief systems that will be the manifestation source that will like make these things you know almost magically present in yourlives.
You don't really buy intothat.
I don't buy into theidea.
I think we've misinterpreted great ideas like Stephen Covey's begin with the end in mind because from my practical experience of teaching people about goals for the lastdecade.
There's a lot of people myself included that if you go hey what's your long term plan tell me the end like what do you want to do 10 years from now it's a paralyzingquestion.
I don't know I have to know that before I start I just wanted to try a little blog and see what I just wanted to you know like a really like flowers I want to get into flowers and that's as far asI've.
And so I don't like the pressure the okay you have to have a perfect vision for a year from now two years from now five years from now that's what I disagree with and so forme.
I stopped on that was like why does everybody teach that because it doesn't work to the people I'm teaching like if I sit down with somebody who's overwhelmed or feels stuck and I go you feel stuck you just got to have a plan for the next 10 years what's again theygo.
I don't know what's going to happen this weekend I definitely don't know I didn't see covid coming I couldn't have predicted that I have to predict the future and so what I like to do instead and that's the methodology for mewas.
What lights you up I feel like one of my core beliefs right now is we're obsessed with sadness and trauma like I personally believe that 20 years ago nobody talked about their feelings and like every other over reaction we went from never to all we talk about is sadness andtrauma.
The study I quoted was for every 100 art scientific studies on sadness there's only one on joy and as somebody who likes to take the counter to an approach especially if it's working with the people they're working with Igo.
Man I think joy has value because I've gone to every type of counseling like I've gone to marriage counseling individual counseling group counseling like you know extensive's whatever and there were so much of the well let's just talk about trauma and very rarely would somebodygo.
Hey what lights you up let's study your joys let's study your past even we say things like don't look back you're not going that direction so I was curious from a counter intuitive perspective of what if I looked at my past what if I gave myself permission to think about the things that light me up is there a lesson there is there something I could learnthere.
And that's what was so surprising about writing this book was how rich the experience of looking back is and what it does to set you up for looking forward so I was fine to look forward but first I had to do that part because then I felt like I had a road map to actually look forward versus just this intimidating vision wall of I have to figure out my life before Istart.
Yeah I mean it's interesting also because I think so often when we either tasked with their task ourselves with looking back often it's in search of what are the things that have in some way broken me that somebody led me and not that it's completely unimportant to revisit those and identify them and process that healthy and supportedway.
On the percent but so often when we look back that is largely the reason that we do it now we look for the skeleton key and I've done this and I think there's value there I would never tell somebody don't process your trauma like of course but I think we sometimes look for it as the skeleton key to the future and the painhurts.
So we go if I can find the one thing and then turn the dial get the key the rest of my life will work like if I can go back and find that one situation with my dad or that one situation with whoever then it'll and so what I wanted to do is say okay I wanted to give my head my heart permission to go back through my history and go what were the things that lit me up the most what were my best moments so all I did was write a piece of paper that said best moments and I started to collect them and I was overwhelmed by it taught megratitude.
Like everybody says gratitude is important and I was going well okay but how do I do it and all the sudden I was grateful and then it was like man I'm really self aware because when you ask your head and your heart to look in your past for joy they automatically start looking in your present you start to go I'm in a best moment right now I'm going to add this to thelist.
So it started to really change how I thought and then the cool thing was I was able to go okay well what does this mean for the future because what happened is everyone who took this exercise and I did it with hundreds of people they'd always write more than I told them to write I go do 30 and they do 100 they do 200 so it was like an exercise you really get into and then everyone had the same response where they go I want more this I want more and that's where a goal to me is such a great vehicle because you go man these are the things that let me up and there's some things that let me go and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and 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I'm going to do this and I 'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to doWell,John, I've never hit the New YorkTimes.
I don't have a bigbusiness.
I haven't done anything that's spectacular and I would have to pull back and help help themgo.
Like, if you're aparent, you've done somethingspectacular.
Like, if you're in a marriage that's healthy andgrowing.
Like, you've done somethingspectacular.
I never met somebody that said I never could get a singleone, but I definitely had people that wouldsay, I triedit.
I gotstuck. I'mfrustrated.
And then hopefully if I actually was able to interact withthem, either via writing orconversation, I couldsay.
One of these threeproblems, what if you try itagain?
And then it would openup.
And it doesn't mean it opened up and they came back to300.
It often meant they opened up and they came back with 20 or15, but they were able to do the exercise easier with a couple oftweaks.
Yeah, that line it allcounts.
I think it'sjust, it's very freeing becauselike,oh, you mean that tiny little thing that I did over here or that tiny conversation that I had been passing with this person about thistopic, thatcounts.
Yeah.Yeah. And that's theopposite.
Like, I'm tryingto,like, the people I like to encourage are normalpeople.
That's part offrom, youknow, you talk about not staying in yourlane, because I think that can belimiting.
But speaking to the people you're trying to speakto,like, Iknow, I'm not a run a thousand miles aweek.
Like,like, get up at 3a.m.
Like, I'm not a hard coredude.
Like, so I have a wider definition of what counts and maybe some peopledo.
But in myexperience, the kinder you are toyourself, the longer you continue thegoal.
So I evenlike, I have a goal this year to work a thousand hours total on mygoal.
So allgoals. Sorunning,writing,everything, onenumber.
And I told somepeople, I'm giving myself at least a five to10% errorrange.
Like, at5% of a thousand hours is 50hours.
That's a pretty big because I want toknow,say, like on day10, I forget todo,like, mark something down in thepast.
My perfectionism would have stopped the wholething.
I would acquire rightthere.
And nowthe,again, the older Iget, the more Igo,oh,yeah, I was off by like twohours.
I got 50 hours to playwith.
I'd rather know I'm going to do the950, then stop at 100hours, because I got perfectionistic andlegalistic.
And I lost the joy of thegoal.
Like, these should befun.
Like, these should nobody's making me dothese.
Like, there's noboss. There's nojury.
And so sometimes when people come togoals, they get reallyserious, you're really legalistic and they lose the joy ofit.
Becauseagain, it goes backto, they have a mentality of I have a problem to fix in mylife.
I feel out of shape and that'sbad.
So I should fixthat. Or I've got to declutter my garage because I'm amess.
I got to fix thatversus, I think I have agift.
I think being outside for half an hour today will be agift.
And I'll lovethat. And you'll spend more time in the pursuit of gifts than you will trying to fix a brokenthing.
Because nobody wants to constantly go back to a failure and fix that again andagain.
It's just not a goodexperience.
Right. Tell me whathappens.
And when somebody comes to you andsays, I'm really interested in your approach togoals.
I have myanophysical. And my doc said tome, youknow, like your blood pressure isup, your cholesterol isup.
You must lose X amount of weight or youknow, change your bodycomposition.
And you must start moving yourbody, youknow, three to five times a week or else you're going to have a profoundly scary health outcome in yourlife.
That is not a positiveframe.
Yeah. Generally the things that they feellike,okay, these are the things I kindof, I'm being told I have todo.
And I want to remove whatever like the scary thingsare.
But the things themselves and the pursuit of it is not sending that I'm intrinsically drawn towards or excited in any meaningfulway.
Yeah. So the first thing I would do is I'dsay, tell me about a goal that worked in yourlife.
I would automatically get you in a positive spot where you're thinking about awin.
So I wouldsay, tell me about something that didwork.
I would take all your attention off the mountain you just received in a doctor's office or thechallenge.
So I'd get you togo, you knowwhat, we paid off a credit cardbill.
Like we had adebt, we cut up our credit cards andwe,like, and then we did it and we didit.
And so I would get you to remember numberone, you've already done hardthings.
Part of my job is to help you see you've already done hardthing.
Because fear comes in andgoes, this is the hardest thing we'll have everfaced.
There's no way you can dothis.
Like everyother, every other dietsfail.
There's noway. So I try to get you to understand something you've already done wellat.
And then I would try to get you to figure out what was helpful in thatsituation.
So part of the problem is we have a hard time relating previous wins to currentchallenges.
And what I mean by that is peoplego, let's use yourexample.
I got to lose 50pounds. And I'llsay,well, tell meabout, youknow, something that worked well and they'll say I paid off my creditcard,whatever.
Igo,well, what did you havelike, what did youdo?
And they'llsay,well, we were in a Dave Ramsey group and it met six weeks and we read abook.
And I had envelopes and we had my wife and I had a weekly budgeting meeting and we had a visual of ourcar.
And every time we paid off a piece of thecar,we, and they'll have all of thesethings.
And I'llgo,well, which of those are we going to bring forward into this newgoal?
Like,okay, then maybe you do need to read a really good book aboutthis.
Maybe you do need to find a weight watchersgroup.
Maybe you do needto, youknow, have somereward.
Like I would try to give them the tools that are going to help them themost.
So my whole thing islike, I need a lot oftools.
I'm a naturally negativeperson.
I'm a naturally pessimisticperson.
Like I'm cynical bynature.
I've just tested positivity and I tested negativity and positivity has a much betterROI.
So it means I have to work hard onit.
So like right here next to me are 70 different soundtracks that are encouraging tome.
So that's one of mytools.
Like I have posted notes that have reminders onthem.
I read a lot of positivebooks.
When Irun, I listen to positive audio for the first 30 or 40minutes.
I listen to a hardcore rap song that's very angry at theend.
I want to be honest to get across that finishline.
But I'm feeding myself positivity because that's a tool that helpsme.
And so I would try to help that persongo, what are thetools?
And then you and I have talked aboutthis.
Thisis, I'm going to quote you to you because it really impactedme.
You're the first person that mentioned there's two types of motivation approach andavoidance.
So an approachmotivation.
If I do these threethings, I approach this reward and avoidancemotivation.
If I do these threethings, I avoid this negativesituation.
And some people are motivated byapproach.
But if you told me I'm not the doctor scaredme.
I wouldgo,well, let maybe you're motivatedby, youknow,rewards.
So what's a smallreward?
Let's come up with asmall, fun rewardsystem.
What does that looklike?
So I would just try to help that person have as many of those aspossible.
And then I would help them make the easiest goal ladderpossible.
So the metaphor I like is most people have a goal ladder and only has tworungs.
It has a bottom rung that says day one or first walk and then the top rung is lose 50pounds.
And there's no rungs inbetween.
And if a neighbor said toyou, you live inColorado.
If a neighborsaid,hey, here's myladder.
If you want to clean the gutters and they had tworungs, you'dlike, I can't doanything.
And so that's what most peopledo.
So what I like to do isgo, how do we add some rungs tothat?
Let's just brainstorm someactions.
Not even aboutyou. What are the type of actions somebody in shape wouldtake?
Okay, like let's come up with some rungs on thisladder.
So you can actually start to climbit.
Actually start to enjoyit.
So that's how I'd break itdown.
And I would never be dishonest about thework.
I would never sugarcoatlike,oh, it's going to be supereasy.
That's not helpful longterm.
But I would do everything I could to figure out how are theymotivated?
What are the tools theyneed?
How do I surround them with lots oftools?
That's why I try to share that I use a lot of tools because I think that often people in my position online don't sharethat.
And it's just heartening thepeople.
Peoplego,man, they just get itdone.
And I much rather golike,no, books are hard forme.
Like they'rereally, and I have to use a lot of tools to finish abook.
And it's my right kind ofdifficult, but it's still reallychallenging.
And here's the 50 tools Iuse.
And some peoplego,man, that's alot.
I'mlike,yeah, it takes a lot forme.
Like maybe other people don't need thismany.
It takes me alot. Maybe some people are born naturallypositive.
But I don't happen to have been thatway.
But I want to bepositive.
So I work atit. And I enjoy the benefits of thework.
Yeah. And I think that's really good folks to hear also because they looklike,okay, so he's written what nine or 10 books at thispoint.
And as you'veshared, like this is the thing that youlove.
You like you wakeup. You love writingbooks.
And yet it's also yourhard.
Here's thething. I was thinking about thistoday.
The older Iget, the more I'm learning that for me to live the life I want to do the things I want to do is about wrestling with twothings.
How I process stress and how I processexcitement.
So inessence, a cortisol and a dopamineconversation.
That's what I'm constantly having withmyself.
And so thedopamine, an example of that would be I realized recently when I'm stressed and anxious about writing a book because it is hardwork.
Like I don't feel like I love doingit.
But it's a difficult love attimes.
I will run to Instagram or social media for a quick dopamine hit of instant feedback from people because I'm addicted to that short term gratification where a book is two yearsout.
I don't get gratification for that from an audience for like one to twoyears.
That's a longwait. And so when I'm in an unhealthyplace, I'll stop the book and I'll run to something that gives me a quick shallow dopamine hit to satisfy thefear, thedesire,whatever.
And so now I'm learning togo,no, that's not how I want to doit.
I want to have systems that help me not dothat.
Oh, I noticed myself doing a behavior that is not serving me longterm.
I need to changethat. And I wish that happened at 28 that I had thethought, but at48, I've got enough years of experience togo,man, when I open thatdoor, like not great thingshappen.
So I need to figure out a system to keep that doorclosed, like not in a rigid legalisticway, because I'm going to slip up and spend an hour scrolling Instagram orwhatever.
But forme, that's thewrestle.
And then the other wrestle that cortisol side is not getting so intense that I can'tperform.
So like I know now I can't addhype.
I can't add hype to already things that are alreadyhyped.
I started anine. I'm avery, I'm a high stressperson.
I have a lot ofanxiety. Like I wouldn't have known that five yearsago, but now I'mlike,oh,no, like I used to say I run hotlike,oh, I runhot.
Andlike,no, I have the anxiety of like 10men, like I have a lot ofanxiety.
So I know Ican't, if I have a big thing comingup, like say world dominationsummit, like say Chris brought thatback.
And he waslike,hey, I want you to come keynote world dominationsummit.
I can't belike,dude, this is going to be a hugething.
There's going to be a bigopportunity.
I got to crushthis. Like I can't add hype to that because it all overwhelmedme.
I'm alreadythere. I already got theenergy.
I'mgood. I have to chill that I have to kind of chill that level ofcortisol.
So I think part of my process is kind of dialing those two things and being smart aboutthem.
Imean, it's interesting also because there's a relationship between that balance you're talkingabout.
And what you described and you write about this in thebook, when you really sort of explore what's yourfuel.
Yeah, the difference between crisisdriven,motivation, sustainable fuels that you seem to center around are impactingcraft.
And I think for a lot ofpeople, they can relate to thosethings, youknow, because it's eitherlike, I want to make adifference.
Or there's something that I'm for whatever reason compelled to do moreof.
And wouldn't it be amazing if I just kept getting better andbetter.
It would like give me a feeling of justcompetent.
Yeah, that I aspire to like I wantthat.
And we're both writers like I will read a sentence from a writer who I admiredeeply.
I literally I'll find myself laughing out loud or crying not because of the content of thesentence.
But because of the quality of the writing that was in thatsentence.
And for aheartbeat, I'll belike,wow, you reallysuck.
Like you're so notthere.
But then like right afterthat.
And this is this is a train thing because it doesn't come naturally tome.
And I think it's same withyou.
Then I'll belike, but if I keep doing this for anotherdecade, maybe in adecade, I'll be able to write a sentence likethat.
And wouldn't that beawesome.
And that's my kind of hard because I will keep writing because I want to be able to write this ends at like at that level a decade fromnow.
And that was like forme, like that will drive me to investing credible amounts ofeffort.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
But I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
And I'm not going to be able to dothat.
Or keep whatever your thingis, thecraft, like you stay atit.
Like I'm 10 years in or 15 years in whatever the numberis.
And I tell myself all thetime, I'm just gettingstarted.
And I don't mean that in a shamefulway.
Imean, like look how much growth ispossible.
Likelook, you read thissentence.
And yougo,oh, I can't do that sentenceyet.
But I can see how it'sstructured.
And I want to work on that kind ofsentence.
And I'm going to practicethat.
So I think that's the firstthing.
Second thing is you just don't blow up yourlife.
Like you don't get lost indrugs.
You don't have 10affairs.
You don'twhatever. And if you do those twothings, like it's really hard for you not to have it work out because you just keep doingit.
Like I know I'm a better speaker than I was the time you saw me at world domination summit because I've done X amount ofthings.
And I've done X amount ofpractices.
And I've lovedthem. I thought about that oneday, I hadthree, fivea.m.
flights in the sameweek.
And that was more than I ever had in 15 years of working at acorporation.
And my wife waslike,man, if a boss made you work like you make youwork.
And I can shift over into bad boss territory when I'm driving toohard,definitely.
But I loveit. Like I genuinely amlike,man, this is going to be fun orlike,hey, like I did a joke to like 3000 optometrist that killed and would bomb in every other room because they're so specific toeyes.
And I loved goinglike, can I write an eyejoke?
Can I understand what it's like to be an optometrist well enough that I can then write a joke that they will golike, that was a greatjoke.
And so like that challenge was really fun forme.
And nobody ofit, they all laughed and it wasgreat.
But like nobody geeked out on that like I geeked out on it in the privacy of myoffice.
Like, and I waslike, ohman, that's going to be a good eyeballjoke.
Like, and that'scraft.
And you won'tstop. The problem is like money as afuel, you eventually get the moneypotentially.
And thenwhat? Like then you have to move the goal post and you have tolike, like you eventually accomplish the thing and thenwhat?
My life didn't dramatically change hitting the New York Times by sellerslist.
Andlike, youreally,really, like I was so glad Idid.
I'm sograteful. But it didn't feel like an endingpoint.
It felt like Ilike,oh,that's, that'samazing.
Thathappened. I'mgrateful.
There's a ton of people that worked out the team at Penguin that helped make thathappen.
But it wasn't a stoppingpoint.
Like I want to mind is like I want tobook.
I love enough that I'mlike,man, I'll send this to Malcolm Gladwell for anendorsement.
Like and Ilike, I feel like I've crafted the sentences in a way that he'd belike,oh, that's a goodsentence.
Andthat, youknow, so things like that keep memotivated.
It's money as you're describing italso.
We've talked about this in thepast, but your aspiration has never just to be become like a greatspeaker.
You'realso, you have a lifelong passion and love for humor forcomedy.
Yeah. So like there's a very particular way that you've always wanted to show up onstage.
And it was to deliver like wisdom andinsight, but also which is amazing humor and comedy and bring lightness to what you'redoing.
So it's interesting because what you're describing like the way that you I've seen you embody that is as youbuild, youknow, into being a truly phenomenalspeaker.
And you might not say thatyourself.
And I'll say it from over here is that you found the things that you could study fiercely and practice over and over the parts of it that you also had a complimentary passionfor.
Oh,yeah. And then you'relike, let me go all in on this because that will make the hardwork.
Imean, I can't imagine how many thousand of hours of stand up that you have watchingdeconstructed.
And trying to figure out at this point for a lot of people that would bebrutal.
Yeah. But for you because there's this underlying passion for that very particularthing.
And then you made the connectionsaid, if I dothis, like this is the part of it that I love investing time and energy in anyway.
So let me make that the center of the hard work that I have to do to become good at thisthing.
And then you figured out a way to do the work in a way that was deeply passionate for you rather thansaying,oh, this is something that I want to befunny.
I'm not all that is incomedy, but I want to be really funny onstage.
So I'm going to have to study comedy for thousandhours.
But it's interesting to say that because I'm in a go all in moment rightnow, I've kind of messed around being aCEO.
And it's like there's some things I'm like admitting like that's too muchtime.
The writing's getting pushedaside.
I need to focus on thewriting.
So like I'm in thisseason.
It scares me becausethere's, youknow, there's things I'm going to have to say no to that have money attachedthem.
There'sthings.Man, if I could schedule it where I had more time to writemore, I think I could create longer term content that livesin.
And so like I'm in this go all in moment rightnow, which is what made me think aboutit.
But I really want it took awhile.
Youknow, I always want to tell people it's not like I figured that out and then I didit.
Like I don't like when somebodygoes, you're about to start abusiness.
You should just figure out yourniche.
That's like saying tosomebody, what's your favorite ride at DisneyWorld?
And yougo, I've never been and theygo,no,no, but what's your favorite you have to pick one ride that you onlyride.
But I haven't been to any of the parks and theygo, I'msorry, this is how like I think you discovered along the way in the act ofdoing, youknow, for meanyway, that's how itworked.
And then the reason I don't do YouTube is because I don't loveit.
So I tried YouTube for a year and I waslike, doesn't make anymoney.
I hate doing it and I'mterrible.
Now it's one thing if you're terrible and you love it because then you'll doit.
And guesswhat? That love will fuel you to getbetter.
So I always tell me like the trifect of things you should quit as fast as you can or things that don't make youmoney, you hate and you'reterrible.
Like it's hard when you're good at it and you hateit.
That's a career crisis for a lot of people where they'relike, here's thething.
I'm actually kind of good atit.
It's what makes memoney.
Like you have to kind of answer a different set of questionsthen, but know the humor I really love and is something I'm curiousabout.
And I like togo,man, GaryGoldman, he set up that punchline in a different way and here's why he set it up thatway.
Youknow, that was reallysmart.
Soyeah, but I do loveit.
And that's where the fuel thing comes from is thefuel.
Like I enjoyit. Like I told somebody when you find something youlove, your hours become like logs and you want to throw as many of them into thefire.
Like and so I didn't stop watching as much TV because I wasdisciplined.
It just wasn't given me anything when my wife goes out of town for like what girlfriends trip orwhatever.
I'm notlike,man, now I can watch all the guy movies where people shoot themup.
Like Igo, my oldest daughter goes to bed at10.
Like I could write from 10 to12.
Like I get to doit. Like so I think finding something like that isreally, reallyfun.
And it takes a while and I think there's different ways to kind of back intoit.
Yeah, I think you can't really think you're way intothat.
You have to just doit. You have totry,try, try and then something shouldn't belike,ooh,that.
Payattention. Payattention.
Oh, wait asecond. It's not like I loveflying.
I trade a million difficult things for the 45 minutes onstage.
And so once I waslike,man, I missed myflight.
I'm sleeping inMilwaukee.
I wasn't supposed to be in the state ofWisconsin.
And I'm still kind ofsmiling.
Huh. I wonder what thatmeans.
Like,oh, it means you love thisthing.
Like, and youknow, all the hardest part is getting off thestage.
I could stay up thereforever.
Huh. I wonder what thatmeans.
And soyeah, I think you pay attention to the stuff that light you up thatway.
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So one of the other parts of your methodology that was very much on display because as we're having thisconversation, youknow, we've turned the page into a newyear, which tends to belike, it's a resolution time foreverybody.
It's a new goal time foreverybody.
And youbasically, and this is part of your approach is let me make a promise and burst tomyself.
But then if you actually like are open to doing it and make it more publicly or make it to somebody else who make it to other people who know it and then let me actually use the wordguarantee.
Yeah, I guarantee this is going tohappen.
So if you looked at yourInstagram, you would see these panels that saylike,yeah, these are the things that I guarantee are going to happen thisyear.
Like you read 13 times more books than the typical person this yearreason.
There was like a list of thingsthat, but you didn't say like these are mygoals.
You didn't say this is what I want to accomplish thisyear.
Yousaid, I guarantee this is going tohappen.
Yeah, take me into like the psychology ofthis.
But it's also not my firsttime.
That's the otherthing.
Like sofair. I read 100 books lastyear.
And I know that because I tracked them all ongoodread.
So when some when I saylike, I'm going to crush books thisyear.
Like it gets back to thatladder.
I'm in the middle of the ladder on a lot ofgoals.
So like one of the goals I talk about is I'm going to sell a millionbooks.
I didn't say that book one that would have been the cockiest dumbestthing.
But I got into the middle ofit.
I waslike,man, I'm really enjoying this like I'm not going tostop.
I love serving people in acommunity.
I'm going to keep talking about theseideas.
I think this is going tohappen.
I'm in the middle of the ladder enough to see like good luck stoppingme.
I've got too much momentum to like I could still stop me with stupid decisions by all means like I could still make baddecisions.
But I just look at andgo, I've got evidence ofresults.
I've gotmomentum. I've got joy andbuckets.
I didn't pick goals that Ihate.
What I've been telling people is I couldn't have put the guaranteed goals idea in book numberone.
But I can definitely put it in book numbernine.
Because if I tell youlike,hey, if you do thesethings, they work out in booknine, I can go like I didn't write the first nine books via magic wasn't because I was particularly talented or like particularlysmart.
It was youknow, like I figured out somesystems.
And then I stayed faithful to thesystem.
And so my plan for this year is I'm going to stay faithful to thesystem.
And even like encouraging people 30 days in a row at the beginning of thatgoal.
I could have said Jonathan I guarantee at the end of this 30 dayperiod.
I'm going to be connected to people in a deeperway.
And then all I did was encourage people to connect with them and then guess what happened at the end of the 30days.
It wasn't a mystery oflike, I wonder if you'll be moreconnected.
I waslike,no, I guarantee this is going towork.
And so that's what I mean by guarantee because I think sometimes the challenge for me is I'm trying to hold two things in myhands.
I'm trying to hold really wild optimism and really truerealism.
And I think you needboth.
And so like I look atgoals.
I always tell people with this four stages dream plan doreview.
So you dream that you plan it you do review it when you dream you need wildoptimism.
But then you have to quickly move into planning which is very honestrealism.
So I've got both in myhands.
But the guarantee looks like it's a lot ofoptimism.
But it's based in a lot of realism where I like I don't believe necessarily in the like here's a crazy thing that I'm disconnected fromreality.
And I'm just going to do it because I've seen so many people fail when they did that and get hurt when they did that like we did a study where we asked 900 people to cut their goals in half mean this PhD MikePeasley.
And the people cut their goals in half for63% more successful because they had so grossly overestimated what they were capable of and they actually got itdone.
So I'm a very realisticguy.
But once I've got some evidencelike,oh, like then I'm more than happy to be wildlyoptimistic.
Imean, that's such an interesting study that has not heard to people also because you kind ofsay,well, weren't they bummed because it was only half of what they originallywanted.
But they achievedit. And how much more bummed would they have been if they had this and they're sort of like sky in the pie thing that was just completelyabandoned.
They would be a lot morebummed.
Here's thething. Soagain, back to that woman because I interviewed on my podcast aswell.
She's fresh in mymind. Jenny Eurich who does a thousand hoursoutside.
She said people tell me it's the best challenge they've everfailed.
Isaid,oh, that's an interestingsentence.
Shesaid,yeah, because they shoot for a thousand hours and they only spend 400 hoursoutside, but they say those are 400hours.
I never would have done with my kids unless I tried thisgoal.
So I don't look atthat. I got an Ftechnically.
If I got 400 out of 1000 got anF, but it feels like a huge a plus because of the 400 I got toenjoy.
Soyeah, my thing is I want you to be successful longterm.
There's a lot of sexy stuff I'd like to say on Instagram because it sells reallywell.
There's a lot of stuff that you go like it'sgreat.
I'm going to 100 X thisovernight.
There's one sentence that changedbubble.
And I wish I could saythat.
But I also want to be really honest in the longterm.
I want to see you win longterm.
And so I have to temper that with excitement to get youstarted.
Realism to keep you going excitement to get you to do it realism to review it like it's a dance back andforth.
And I want to try to do that as honestly as Ican.
And then also like my kids arewatching.
I'm teaching these ideas my kids like my daughter who's inLondon.
So we talk about soundtracks a lot in our house like repetitive thoughts that we tell eachother.
She texted yesterday she's been in London twodays.
She said I got two new soundtracks forLondon.
The first is tired is better thanregret.
Meaning she's going to go do thething.
She's not going to sleep in the study center watching that she'slike.
If I'm in London for threemonths, you better believe I'm going to Wales instead of watching a TV show like or even if I'm tired I'm going out for the extrathing.
And then to the second one she said a snack fixes a lot ofproblems.
And she realized when me and my girlfriends are kind of getting sniffy on each other like a snack fixes and then another one from her sophomore year first semester of college she wrote meinstead.
Dad I've taught all my friends the soundtrack softmores don't getembarrassed.
That's what we say softmores don't get embarrassed we're not freshmen anymore like we're going to do things like brave things and big things softmores don't getembarrassed.
And so a lot of times when I'm teaching things I'm like man I want my kids to learn this I want them to have the best shot at these two so I try to temper it with again wild enthusiasm but also practical realism so that it actuallyworks.
And sometimes that means you say things that aren't sexy like cut your goals inhalf.
But I'd rather say that and you work it then go the sky is the limit and there's never work involved and that sets somebody up for instant hurt not long termsuccess.
Yeah and that makes so much sense to me you know it's dream on a level that then even if it's feels like it'd be really hard and take a lot of work and maybe the time is going to be a while like there's something in this is but I can make it happen it's doable yeah it's all doable my answer what Steven write the committee speaking ofcomedians.
He said everything is in walking distance if you have the time and I love that I like it's such a simple little so for me like one of my soundtracks when I write is three pages isplenty.
