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Zoe, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you so much, it's great to be here.
Yeah it's great to have you my friend.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure, I am the author of a new book called Influences Your Superpower, and I based this on the course that I teach at Yale School of Management.
It's the most popular course that was called Mastering Influence and Persuasion.
And I wrote it to share tools and science, insights, strategies of influence beyond the ivory tower.
So can I so that I can help lots of people do good and do well at the same time.
This is great. And kudos to you, I think you picked the best title for a book on persuasive communication ever.
I think that's absolutely brilliant.
It's funny you say it because I had a lot of titles that I liked and my agents and my editor hated all of them.
I hated the one that they liked which was Influence For Nice People.
And actually, for four and a half years while I was writing this manuscript, you're making this face of like, oh, that's how I felt.
No, Influence For Nice People is terrible, it's not wrong about the material for the book but it's so not influential, it's cringy, right?
Yeah, so I failed to negotiate this new title, and it took just waiting and waiting until the sales team finally, when they got the manuscript, they were like, we love the book, but we frickin hate the title.
We need something new.
That's great. When you say cringey, I mean, literally cringed it, so I'm glad you moved to that because I mean, I consider myself to be a nice person, but I don't know if I like I don't know if I wanted to reinforce that with the book that I got.
I was like, hmm, what is it?
I don't know. Yeah, so influence for losers.
I consider myself a nice person too.
Right? Right. Right.
Exactly. I Yeah, so we're on the same page.
Well, I'm glad you made that shift. It's a brilliant title.
And I think this is, this is really great.
Because what you've been able to do with your with your skill set is you've been able to take what was like you said, it's the most popular course at the Yale School of Management, you put it into a look, but now you're going to share some of those practical tools with us.
And I want to focus in on that, that term practical because yeah, you're from the ivory tower.
I taught it, uh, the more it's a school of law here at OSU.
Um, and the thing is there's a lot of great stuff that sounds incredibly intellectually stimulating, but it's so theoretical that people can't put it into action.
So I'm glad that you've been able to take that and synthesize it into a way that can actually be useful for people in their everyday life.
Yes, and I promise before we end this session, no matter what questions you ask me or don't ask, we'll make sure that I get to share my very, very favorite influence technique.
It's so powerful that I call it the magic question.
And it's super, super easy.
Let's start there. Listen, no, I think that I could have teased this a little bit longer, but I'm excited.
I think we should start with the magic question.
So tell us about it.
Great, the magic question is powerful because you can ask it in almost any situation as long as you have rapport.
And you can ask it repeatedly of the same person.
You can ask it whoever you taught this question to, your colleagues, your kids, in my case my students.
And the magic question is just what would it take?
And I'll share a story to illustrate the power of this in a couple of different contexts.
And let's talk in the work domain since that's what a lot of people are thinking about listening to this podcast. When I was an MBA student, I interned at this medical device company called Guidant.
It's now part of Boston Scientific, and this company had the problem that's a good problem, but it's still difficult that demand was outstripping supply for their new medical devices, these stent systems. And the number two person at the CEO, Ginger Graham, had to get employees to come in and work overtime three shifts a day, including the period over Thanksgiving and Christmas.
Nobody wants to do this.
And when you think from a negotiations perspective about incentives, you can offer people high enough incentives to do most things.
So they're not disinclined to work.
They've already agreed to have this job.
You can pay them enough to come in and work overtime.
However, Tyler Cowen, this economist at George Mason, writes about how incentives can make people feel like slaves.
And that's what happens if you just stop at incentives when you're asking your employees to come in and work overtime, where they can feel like they didn't have any choice in the matter.
And then at the end of that period, there's no goodwill left. There's no engagement.
And in a case like we have now where we have this great reset, or stagnation, or resignation, or whatever you want to call it, if all you've offered employees, as their incentive to work with you, is money, they're just going to go look for more money in another job.
So she asked the magic question.
She said, what would it take for you to feel good about coming in and working overtime during this crazy period?
And they told her and by the way she said, of course I'm gonna pay you money, obviously.
So they said, listen we take the bus.
These are employees working in production.
She's an executive, she doesn't have any idea how buses work, but they tell her the buses don't run at night so we need cab fare.
They say we're hungry and we like pizza.
Okay, good to know.
And they tell her we're stressed about wrapping our Christmas presents so if you could hire a Christmas Present wrapper that would be really helpful.
So she does all of these things.
Production hits record highs.
Everybody got I think it was a 30 % bonus at the end of the year.
And most importantly, after this crazy period where it's a big success, they're still excited to work for her and to work for this company, because they felt respected.
So the magic question shifts the mindset from resistance to like, it's like there's this inner two year old inside all of us saying, you don't tell me what to do.
You're not the boss of me when someone's trying to persuade us.
We shift that to collaborative problem solving and like with bus fares that she just wouldn't have known about cab fares and Christmas present wrappers.
Who could have had any idea?
You get information that you never would have guessed.
And then when the person sees that this road map has been followed, whether it's you following it, or other forces or just waiting that needed to happen for that breadcrumb trail to lead to the outcome that you said that you wanted.
So in this case, it's them being engaged and working overtime during this period.
When And when you've done the things, they're happy to support that outcome.
If you think of this in a personal situation, say at work, where you're thinking that you would really like to negotiate a raise or a promotion, you can use the magic question and you go to your boss and you say, what would it take for me to be at the top of the salary band?
Or what would it take for me to get to the next level?
They'll be so happy to tell you exactly what it takes because they want you to succeed and they want you to know how to succeed.
And then when that trail of breadcrumbs is followed, and you say, here's what you said it would took, here's what I've done, here's what else has happened.
They've already implicitly committed to supporting that raise or supporting the promotion.
And they'll do what they can to help you out.
If they have any shred of decency as a human being, magic question, what would it take?
Zoe, this is, this is great.
This is really great.
And, you know, it's so great, in fact, that, I mean, I'm going to use this, the moment this conversation is done seriously.
What are you going to ask for?
Do you know? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because there was a situation here at, in the company where somebody was hired to do a job.
And then as they started to do the job, we realized that the job would take something completely different than we initially that we initially anticipated.
And The only way we would know that is through execution.
And so I feel bad as a boss because it's almost like, I don't want them to feel as though this was a bait and switch where it's like, hey, we think you're going to do this.
Hey, now you're doing that.
And it's completely different.
Right? So now we're moving them into another role that's same level, but very important.
And so I wanted to make sure that they feel respected and honored through the transition.
And I, I know that I did not as a leader, set them up for success and I admitted that today.
And so the question I want to ask is, what would it take for you to feel honored and respected in this new position as we go forward?
And so I think when it comes to respect, you know, you can only respect somebody based on what they feel would make them feel respected, I can't guess that.
And I think, in the past couple of months, I've been guessing that.
So I think this is the this is like, the question that can be the catalyst to getting things back on track.
So I appreciate that.
This is incredible.
Awesome. That's a great example.
I love it. And we should be asking this kind of question of each other much more.
We can also ask the magic question in lieu of criticism.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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So simple context is I had a teaching assistant who was repeatedly late, and I was super stressed out.
And I wasn't just wanting to yell at him.
But I tried to walk the talk when I can remember to.
And so I said, Hey, say, what would it take for you to come in on time every day for the rest of the semester.
and he's talking to himself about his bicycle and his alarm clock and He's like okay, and I said is there anything that you need from me?
He's like no consider it done, and he not only does come in every day on time for the rest of the semester But we've preserved this relationship because I helped him save face And so we're cool with each other which is very different from me Strong -arming him into coming in every day on time for the rest of the semester Yeah.
And okay. So Zoe, let's break down that example because it's really interesting because I think from the outside, looking in somebody who is not well versed in influence or persuasion, they might not fully appreciate the magic of the magic question they might not fully understand what happened beneath the surface.
Because they'll just say, so we just asked the question and the guy talked to himself and then he changed his perspective.
Right. So when you think about beneath the surface, if we're going to assume what was happening cognitively, what changed for him?
So I'm letting him know, hey, this thing in the past, that wasn't cool, but it's okay.
Let's focus on the future.
And let's figure out a plan together.
And it turned out, we didn't need to do it together.
But I'm also respecting that he knows about his situation.
He knows what his obstacles are, he knows what his interests are.
And I'm not telling him what to do.
People hate to be told what to do.
And people love to be asked their advice or for their expertise.
So I'm saying, listen, I'm not going to tell you what to do.
I'm asking for your input and your expertise here.
What will it take? And in doing that, I'm respecting him as a human being.
And also here, he knows that because I'm his boss, I could have done this in a very different and much less respectful way.
Right. I could have just called him out on it.
And that's what I might have done in the past as, you know, baby boss.
When I was first trying to figure this stuff out, like, just if you're somebody's employee and you have to show up at a specific time, this is table stakes.
You can't violate that.
Like you have to be there at that time.
And I have this sense of entitlement as a manager.
And now I try to be unfairly forgiving with people whenever I can.
And if we've been working together for a while, I trust you, I respect you, you can mess up.
And you can even mess up again.
And I'll say, what will it take for us to get on track?
And then at some point, if it keeps happening, and then we just realized, this isn't working out.
But I really think it's so important for managers to have this bandwidth, this zone of forgiveness for people who've been doing a good job otherwise, and not to penalize people as though they have failed us as a human being just because they fell short in one area.
And I think the pandemic has hopefully shifted a lot of people in this way.
Yeah, well, and hopefully it sticks, because we have a tendency to forget.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Now, I want to go a bit deeper, Zoe, on one of the things that you said, kind of in passing, but I think there's a lot of of richness to it.
So you said, unfairly forgiving.
That's really interesting.
Because I think especially when we think about it from a leadership perspective, you might be a boss, you might be a manager, you might be a parent, we almost and then also from self leadership, because a lot of time we need that internally driven motivation to go and do things.
And we feel as though we're almost obligated to hold people accountable in a way that is good that goes beyond assertive to aggressive, where we feel like it only works if it hurts a little bit.
And so the, the advice of being unfairly forgiving almost flies in the face of that, because some people might say to themselves, but if I keep on forgiving people and keep on letting them think that it's okay, then wouldn't that encourage that behavior?
So how do you reconcile persuasion as your superpower with this potentially problematic mentality of accountability needs to be painful.
There's this idea that a lot of us have, especially who are kind that we don't want to be a doormat, right, we don't want to let people walk all over us take advantage.
And it's very, very different to be unfairly forgiving than to just pretend that everything is fine.
So, being unfairly forgiving means that there's some kind of acknowledgement that this thing didn't go well, it wasn't cool, this was an anomaly, and it's okay, and we focus on the future.
I take inspiration of this effect or phenomenon from marketing that's called the service failure paradox.
And what research finds is that sometimes when there has been some kind of snafu or even a disaster, the people who it happened to, if they're treated surprisingly well, end up being even more loyal than the people who never had that happen.
And if we map this onto leadership, what this says is there are these moment of truth where something bad happens.
Maybe it's a mistake that you made, maybe it's a mistake somebody else made, maybe it's a tragedy or error that has nothing to do with either of you.
If that person involved is treated unfairly or surprisingly well, they can be even more loyal to you, or to the organization, then if this negative event had never occurred And for leaders, the two big ways of facing these kinds of situations are, first of all, taking responsibility, yourself or the organization, when you or the team or the organization has done something wrong so you apologize, and you say exactly what you're going to do to make sure this doesn't happen in the future.
And compensation if compensation needs to be paid, absolutely.
And then the second piece though, that most people don't think about is this unfair forgiveness where your employee or someone in your sphere makes a mistake or they fall short, and you choose to forgive them, let it go.
Let them know that it's really okay.
And you don't see that as who they are.
It's just this thing that happened and we move forward. Employees can become so much more loyal when you're unfairly forgiving to them.
And even if they have screwed up, if you are not forgiving to them, they can become disloyal.
So their error is this moment of truth that can lead to loyalty or disloyalty, depending on how you handle it.
Wow, that's incredible.
And now we there's going to be, let's say somebody intellectually understands what they say, Zoe, that makes sense.
My problem is I don't want to do that.
Okay, so how do how can somebody really adopt the mentality that allows them to do that?
Because what I found in when it comes to negotiation trainings and things like that, a lot of times people can understand what it is that they need to do, but they struggle to do it because they simply don't want to do it.
They don't feel like doing it.
So how, how can we reconcile those two points?
Let's put this in some kind of concrete context because we were talking about hierarchical relationships where you don't really get to say that to your boss.
You don't really get to say like, yeah, that makes sense.
But I really don't feel like it.
Right, but so what's a conflict?
Is there a context that you face this?
Or this is a general question?
I can let's I think it's a general question.
But let's say let's use a simple conversation or a situation where there is no hierarchy.
We're on the same level.
Let's say a friend does something to offend me.
You know, they thought they were okay doing it at the time.
Let's say there was no malice in what they did.
But that all that happened, that happens in human interaction, somebody does something, it causes the fence, I'm hurt.
And now they apologize.
They say, Hey, I'm sorry for that.
But my feelings are hurt in the moment.
And so Zoe, even though I recognize that I could be unfairly forgiving in that moment, I don't want to extend I emotionally don't want to extend that grace.
So how can I adopt that mentality?
So I can do this in the moment, even though I don't necessarily feel like it.
Thank you. I thought we were talking generally about things people don't feel like doing, now I understand you were saying, what if you don't feel like being unfairly forgiving?
Thank you. I am not at all saying that everybody all the time should be unfairly forgiving.
I am only saying that this is a tool for leadership that can be powerfully influential.
And when it's powerfully influential is when you have power over this other person.
So you don't have power over your friend and your friend makes some offensive remark, and you saying like, Okay, that's okay, I forgive you.
It doesn't influence them because you didn't have power over them.
Gotcha. Oh, that makes so much sense.
That makes so much sense.
I appreciate the clarification.
That's really helpful.
That's really helpful.
And so it brings to light an important part of that dynamic.
It's the power discrepancy.
I remember the book charisma myth.
I forget the woman who wrote it, right?
That's it. Yes. Yes.
That is exactly, she's the person.
And one of the things that she said about charisma was that it is power plus warmth.
So I have power. I could use that power to make your life worse in this moment, but I also have warmth and I'm not going to.
And that draws people in.
So I think it's it's persuasive.
But also, you know, per that definition, you could also add charismatic, too.
But I think most people listen for the persuasive tools.
I think this is really, really helpful.
Yeah. And thank you, that was a very important piece of all of this.
That absolutely. It depends on power.
And you feel that in relationships where people have power over you because you were anticipating the negative outcome of them being angry or disappointed or whatever that was.
And when I say power, it doesn't have to be structural power.
This includes people in romantic relationships have power over each other because we care so much what each other thinks of us.
Right? So, when your partner is unfairly forgiving of you or you're unfairly forgiving of your partner because you were feeling bad, that is influential.
But if your friend is not upset or fearing that you were going to be upset about this thing - and actually what you're saying is they didn't even perceive that they made a mistake, right?
Like they just said this offensive thing and they were like yeah, you know - yeah, I see that that rubbed you the wrong way but freedom of speech, self -expression, authenticity, all that.
It's hard. And actually, since this is a topic that came up and right now my brain is just like this is going to this one person in my life, close family member, who is so much like that.
And he says offensive things.
I get upset, other people get upset, and I haven't figured out how to navigate this.
And all that I do is just say, OK, I would rather not be in this conversation anymore.
And then I leave so that I'm just I'm not part of it.
And I figure this is at least not giving the positive reinforcement that says that it's OK.
But what advice do you have about that?
it's a good, that's a great example.
I think it really, we have to focus on power in this situation.
Where is the power dynamic in this situation?
It's equal like you and your relative in that situation.
I think we all have, um, friends or at least the associates who are like that.
And, um, we have to recognize that everybody has autonomy and control.
They can do what they want.
And so what you've done is you've said, Hey, listen, I know you have freedom of speech, the speech that you used hurt my feelings, in it for the sake of the relationship, it would be helpful if you modified that, that has been communicated.
And then that person says, I hear you, but I'm still going to be me.
That is how I'm going to use my power.
And so that is their choice.
And the thing is, with life, one choice leads to another choice, they have a choice, and you have a choice.
And then you said, if that is what you would like to do, that's fine.
And then I will choose not to be in this interaction with you in particular.
And I'll choose to minimize my interactions with you in the future.
You have that choice.
I have my, my choice.
And that's it. And I think if we use this and break this down in the context of negotiation, it becomes really clear.
We have offer and acceptance.
I made an offer. My offer was rejected.
Am I just going to sit here and accept the bad offer?
No, I have a BATNA best alternative to negotiated agreement.
And it is not spending time with you, sir.
And that's it. You know, and I think a lot of people miss that last point.
They just said, well, I made that request and that it wasn't given to me.
So I guess I have to sit there and take it no. If you think about it in the context of a negotiation, you always have options.
And you need to feel empowered to execute upon those options.
Because like you said, if you stay in the interaction, it's almost like tacit content, consent, I am essentially condoning this behavior, and thereby encouraging it by my continued presence in this interaction.
And we don't want to do that.
then I just feel bad about myself.
Can I ask you about something that I think is so cool and I also wonder if it's problematic?
This is your sparring sessions.
It's so cool. I think it's so fun.
And the problematic part is that I talk to and train so many people who have this fear of negotiating because of what they see in Hollywood movies and things.
So, you and I know that people are negotiating all the time, we don't get through a day without negotiating, right?
But there's this idea of negotiation with a capital N that usually involves strangers and usually involves money and usually involves a lot of money.
And we hardly see any of these.
And when I see people who feel like baby negotiators negotiating with each other in the kind of cases you do in business school, There is a lot of bullying that happens because people are scared and because people think that's how negotiating works.
So how do you reconcile this idea that actually in real life ...
First of all, most people are just trying not to be suckers.
They're not trying to take all of the value off the table.
They're just trying not to be a sucker.
And if you show that you're not trying to make them a sucker, they're like, okay, great, let's just talk like normal people, figure things out together.
with how so, how do you let people know, negotiating is actually way easier and more comfortable than you fear it is, but then also have this super fun, engaging and helpful training paradigm of sparring sessions?
Yeah. Oh, it's great question, essentially reconciling the fact that you and I both see that we essentially the media teaches us bad behavior.
Right? And we want to essentially, that's one of the goals of the negotiation, the what we're doing with the American Negotiation Institute rebranding negotiation, you know, and so with everyday episodes that we have like this one is really cordial and nice.
And we see the theoretical side.
But everybody says, but Kwame, what if it doesn't go?
Right? That was a question I kept on getting.
They're like, Hey, I tried what you said in that, but it didn't work.
So what do I do in that situation?
And so that was really interesting to me, because I said, Oh, that's right.
Because when we talk in this conversation, we're talking about the strategies, the tactics, how it should work in those situations.
And we're giving practical examples, but I realized I wasn't doing a good job of showing them, Hey, there are still tools and tactics and approaches that you should use when it breaks down.
And if a specific tool or tactic doesn't work in that moment, that doesn't mean you abandon it.
Part of the persuasive process is persistence.
And so my goal with aspiring sessions is to show people, like, even at my worst. And I say that in the disclaimer, I was like, don't look at what I'm doing.
Look at what the guest is doing, right.
And so even at my worst, you can still stay level, calmly and confidently use the tactics that we talked about, and eventually, things go can be more productive, you have the skills to move forward. And I think it's, it's fun for me, because even when I'm trying to be unreasonable.
I'm like, damns always good.
I can't. Ah, she's not breaking, she's not breaking, you know, and then we do the breakdown afterwards.
So I think it's that part recognizing that, yes, negotiation, these are everyday conversations.
And they should be approached as such. And there are going to be times when things get a little bit tough.
But that doesn't mean that the skills that we're talking about don't work.
That doesn't mean the the ethos of respectful communication shouldn't be applied in this situation.
It can be. You just have to believe and have confidence in the skills that you bring to the table.
That makes a lot of sense.
Thank you for the context and 100 percent.
Amen to the But what happens if it doesn't work?
And modeling and role modeling.
And I hope that people who are listening to those sessions will then also try role plays on their own.
What I find when I have people role play and influence negotiation situation with somebody who disagrees with them or wants something else is and I have them role play the other person.
So you take the other person's role who's resistant.
And then it'll be me or somebody else who's practicing the techniques.
The fear is that this other person is going to be so abysmal or abominable or so resistant and recalcitrant that they're just going to roadblock you at every turn, having had the experience of this sparring session, then makes the real life session goes so much easier, because even if it's a little bit bumpy, it feels like it was a piece of cake.
Exactly. And I'm glad you said that because I think that's an element of role playing that people often miss, because they always say, Okay, I'm Kwame, I'm going to play Kwame in this negotiation.
No, you're going to actually play the other person first. And it helps them to empathize at a higher level, because I find when I start to do that, I start saying things that I never would have considered before I'm like, oh, you know what?
The things that they were asking for, aren't that unreasonable?
I can actually see where they're coming from.
So it helps me to anticipate a little bit more, and it makes it feel less scary because it feels like I've not only been there before, but I've been there before as that other person.
And so it helps me to anticipate and feel more confident in my approach. 100%.
Yeah. Oh, this is great.
This is great. And I We're coming up on time, but let me say this because you've given us some gems of wisdom on this show thus far.
If you were going to give the audience one more parting piece of advice before you go, what would that be?
My parting piece of advice is people like you more than you realize.
So you don't have to worry so much about that.
There's research by Erica Boothby and other scientists finding that there's this 12 % liking gap where when you meet somebody and afterwards you say how much you like them and you say how much you think that they liked you — you think that you liked the other person more than they liked you.
So I just want to leave that as a little confidence builder.
You're cooler than you think and people like you better than you think that they do.
So let that be easier for you walking into the next negotiation knowing that you're charming.
I love that Zoe, thank you so much for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you so much, Kwame.
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