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Welcome back to Hot Pursuit, a podcast about creating conversations where nothing is off limits.
This podcast is produced by Asian Boss Girl.
I'm Em.
I'm the older sister you've always wanted.
I'm Jen, the cheese ball in your snack drawer.
And I'm Madeline, your girl who thinks everything really is that deep.
So, as this year is kind of rounding out and we're looking back at what we've accomplished this year and a lifetime of years leading up to right now, I think the question that resonates with us a lot is What do you want to be when you grow up?
And that's the question we were asked a lot as children.
But slowly over the years, people stopped asking us that question and we just had to figure it out.
We didn't really dare to dream anymore.
So we wanted to revisit that question between all three of us and ask you guys as well.
What did you want to be? when you grew up and what do you want to be when you grow up?
We're still growing.
We're going to grow until we die.
So I think We wanted to talk about this question, because this year, I think for all three of us, has been one where, like so many, new dreams are being birthed.
So many dreams that maybe were dormant are being reawakened again.
And I think we felt the excitement of almost the permission to dream all over again.
And it's like our field of vision is now like widening so much more of like what we can imagine for ourselves.
And there's so much wonder in that.
So we kind of wanted to throw it back to the times when we felt like we had permission to dream and that wide-eyed wonder, which was when we were kids.
That's why we want to take it all the way back to.
So let's take our flux capacitor back to the past.
And Madeline, what did you want to be when you grew up?
This question is really hard because as you go through life, you realize that things just like dreams and hopes and thoughts get stripped away from you as you realize, like the reality of life and the challenges that you'll face.
And so when I was young, I didn't know that I would only be five feet.
But I wanted to be an Olympian because it was, by any objective measure, globally the acclaimed measure of excellence.
And so there was no refuting it.
No one could argue with you if you were an Olympian.
So I swam growing up and I really enjoyed athletic things.
And I think it was the time that I could feel almost the most free, because when I'm in the water nothing feels like it.
And you just you feel like the water against your skin and you just kind of like slice through it and it feels really good um, and i imagined like doing that and being really good at something that i loved.
Did you specifically dream about wanting to be an olympic swimmer or an olympian like?
Was it more the idea of excellence or was it the idea of swimming?
Yeah, the highest caliber.
Yeah, I think, because I swam, that was actually where my desire first went.
But I was also quite interested in gymnastics.
I didn't really have access to great gymnastic facilities because I lived in Wichita, Kansas.
I still did a couple summers of gymnastics and it was really fun and i really loved it.
Everyone's like, oh my god, you're so flexible.
I mean, i was like four, so of course i'm gonna be flexible.
But um, i remember like kind of dreaming in that direction because what they did was really beautiful and performative and expressive and that was so cool.
But i also really loved the idea of ice skating and i did that over the summer a couple times um, And I remember thinking like wow, I wish I could glide on the ice, like like those Olympians.
You know it's so beautiful.
But they're also like being praised for their athleticism and their sport.
So Overall, probably most strongly in swimming, but in general, watching the Olympics was a feeling that I can recall quite clearly.
Did you want to be an Olympian, to win the olympics or to compete at that level?
Did you want the feeling of being on the podium and having the american flag behind you waving at your parents?
Or what was the feeling that you wanted?
And if you were never televised, they never put your segment on TV.
Would you feel as satisfied?
I think I just wanted to be a part of something that was so excellent that everyone in the world participated.
And so the best case scenario would be you win a gold medal, you get to represent your country.
But I would have been happy if I just made it.
Even getting through trials and becoming an Olympian was already huge.
Making it to semifinals would have been really big.
And then what's crazy is the people that I grew up swimming with.
A few of them did go on to trial for the Olympics, and some people ended up being Olympians.
And it's just crazy to think wow, that's a dream that a lot of us had.
Yeah, just being representative and like doing a good job, i think so, having the validation of you are the best because you're part of this group yeah, and just being excellent at something yeah yeah, the distillation is like the act, like to be excellent at a craft that you've poured yourself into somehow.
And then to be amongst others that are also excellent.
To be among elite group.
Yeah.
Globally.
Yeah.
Objectively.
I mean, you could argue that like a generation is like less weak than another, but then, like you're the crazy one.
So like no one's going to do that.
You know what I mean?
So it's like this is like objectively just a measure that like no one can argue with.
Yeah.
Em, what about you?
What did you want to be when you grew up?
I wanted to be so many different things, but it all had to do with performance.
I wanted to be in the circus.
I remember going to the circus with my parents, and I saw the trapeze artists.
And I just sat there in awe because I'm like they are being suspended from the sky and they get to be paid for it and there's animals.
So I wanted to be in the circus.
I wanted to be, I remember watching SeaWorld, the Shamu show.
They don't have that anymore, but I remember seeing the beauty of a swimmer dancing with an orca whale.
And I was like, that's so magical.
I want to be able to bring that kind of magic into the world.
I also wanted to be an actor.
I wanted to be an astronaut.
I wanted to be in Geek Squad as well.
My dad said, he was like, you can't be in Geek Squad as a girl.
Cause I just thought I was really good at computers as a kid.
And I was like, oh my gosh, maybe I could help other people be good at computers.
The quickest way to do this is through geek squad.
So I was like, that sounds fun.
And my dad was like no um, if they know that you're a girl and they call you to their house, things can happen.
Oh.
So, but a lot of my dreams, a lot of my dreams were discouraged just because they were so seemingly out of reach that I felt
The, the mood before the question is asked and after it is answered was always very different.
So I learned to not share my dreams as much.
So this, this feels very vulnerable to be like, I wanted to be a circus performer.
I wanted to dance with whales.
I also wanted to, I loved, I was in Taekwondo as a kid as well.
And my favorite thing about Taekwondo wasn't the fighting.
It was the demonstration aspect.
So we would have a demonstration team and we would show just the best parts of what Taekwondo is.
There would be a routine where people would break boards and sequence.
It was just so beautiful.
So.
I've always loved performing and bringing awe to people who in everyday life they wouldn't normally experience that.
And I just wanted to be part of that greater world, too.
You mentioned, which made me gasp, the creating magic for other people to experience.
So I was wondering if there a feeling you almost wanted to give to the audience when you're performing, as the common denominator for all of these different ways to perform or create awe.
I think awe is so tied into an emotional need for every human being to to be able to express it to the fullest form that I don't feel there's a place for people to express that in day-to-day life or even in, you know, extracurriculars that you get at school or classes that you can sign up for.
Everything is still very structured.
And I feel, when people see performances like the circus or acrobatics or just something that has to do with extending your body or extending your emotions outward to a level that people aren't used to, it makes people feel so understood and it makes them feel heard.
And I just don't think you can get that kind of reaction through just normal everyday conversation.
You have to almost watch someone do it so that you know it's possible for you to do it yourself.
So I think that's the magic of performance that I think is so important to just society as a whole.
That's why people like listening to songs because songs make you feel heard.
They love watching live performances because you can just see someone's soul outpour in through the medium of their craft.
And I just wish I wish everyone had access to that.
But even being an observer of that kind of medium, it does something to you.
It feels like you get to live through them and it feels satisfying.
Yeah, like I just remember seeing the swimmer with the orca like blast out of the water and then like she just like flew into the sky and like landed back into the water.
I'm like, that is not human.
But that's something I feel people's emotions are too great to exist inside their body.
Yeah.
And so performance kind of gets you there.
It's really beautiful to see that being displayed through other people and to adopt that as your own dream.
Similar to what Maddie said.
She's able to express her desire for excellence and like to be the best at something with a group of people who also think the same.
So do you have something that exhibits that type of dream.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I was little.
Uh, I wanted to be a news anchor woman back when people watched the news to get their source of information every day, which now phones.
But um, out of all of us, she's dressed the best for being a news anchor woman.
Although I learned today you're not supposed to wear white on.
So my other dream, I guess, which I think is connected in some way to it, is I told my mother the audacity I had that I wanted to be the president of the United States of America.
That's not audacity.
And she was like, okay.
And then I told her that I wanted to be the first female president of the United States.
I think I would watch my parents every day at like 530 or 630, whenever the nightly news was, and they would sit in front of the TV and watch people speak to them.
And they would react and they would have comments to each other during it.
I think I saw the power of words shaping minds and words shaping reactions and mindsets to things.
And similar.
I think, a lot of what I'd known in my little tiny four-year-old self with the president of the United States is them giving a speech to a crowd of people that felt like it was shaping and influencing and molding the world.
And I think there's something around perhaps like the power of words to shape hearts and minds.
That was particularly powerful to me, that I found captivating and how just the way someone could speak and people would listen and consider and maybe shape their opinions and thoughts about things.
That was exciting to me.
You mentioned being the first female president of the United States.
So was there a deep desire to be the first of something, to be a trailblazer, to bring novelty in occupying a space.
I think I just thought it was cool.
Like I think at the time it was less about being first but more just seeing the influence that was possible from people that were in positions of power, that had maybe like visions or ideas.
We're sharing them and people would listen.
And maybe it's also the reaction shots of like the crowd and people nodding, or like my parents watching the news, anchor people and being so engaged that the capturing of attention with words was just exciting to me.
So I think my child self was just like Oh, it'd be cool to be first, but I don't know if that was like the heart of it.
Yeah, but interestingly, like emily found the capturing of people's emotions to be what tugged at her heart and you found the reactions of people through words to be the most intriguing.
So, like when you consumed or when you watched people perform, how was that different from when you watched like people speak?
Know what i mean?
I mean, speaking is kind of a performance, but it is yeah, good question.
But it's different from like dancing or like singing or or you know, any performative art, even though politics in america is kind of a performance, but like that's another conversation.
But you know how is.
Did you remember for that feeling different when you were young?
I don't know why.
My child self maybe thought it was different, but even today, if I like draw it all the way from the roots then to now I think when there's a performance or a concert or a dancer, it feels personal between the audience member and the person in front of you.
That's connected.
Whereas with news anchor people or like the president, it's shaping like not just the one to one relationship but the world and society.
And so Maybe it's the lens and scale of it that excited me at the time more than it was like that one-to-one connection.
But, oh, this could change lives or hearts for many people.
Yeah.
You wanted to change the world.
Yeah, I guess.
Is there a message that you wanted to get across?
Um, at the time when I was four, no.
Because you said you wanted.
It kind of just sounds like you want to influence minds and hearts and behaviors.
So, but is there a path, like, is there a goal?
Is there a message that you want to influence or you just like the idea of influencing?
I think I always felt like the things that they were discussing were important and they matter to not just one person in the audience but many people.
So I think I personally it was not the person to have a message, but I saw that they were shaping something around them for not just one person, but many in some way.
Yeah, so you wanted to be a part of a greater thing as well, and i feel like that might just be the common thread between all of our dreams and just dreams in general just wanting to be part of something greater than yourself and essential to something greater than yourself.
Did you guys ever have a timeline for achieving your dreams?
For me, I knew that- I feel like you would have a timeline since it's sports.
Yeah.
You expire.
Yeah.
Like physically.
Yeah.
I mean, when I was young, 25 was like unthinkably old.
And I'm like, if I'm not an Olympian by 19, then I'm a failure.
But then I soon realized at 11 that I was not growing any taller.
Do you have to be tall to be a swimmer an Olympic swimmer?
You don't, but it's.
It's just kind of like it's not as fair because if someone's like, one arm length is three of mine, like they're just gonna reach the wall faster, you don't think about that.
When you're kids, you don't think about limitations.
When you're kids yeah, you don't think about physical, logistical anything.
Yeah, It has been really interesting because I've asked this question to like different friends in my life too.
And it's interesting to see how some of them shaped and molded their original childhood dreams into new things that they're kind of doing now, like you're a great example, em of this.
It's molding it into what it could look like today.
But i find a lot of people also just abandon that concept entirely.
So i was talking to a friend who, like her dream was to be an artist and a writer.
And then i was like and then what happened to it, you know?
And then she said well, somewhere along the way, like i just i had to focus on other things so, just like, let that die, you know, and starve.
But there are others that I find that are channeling that same thread into new things or new passion areas or their work today.
So it's fascinating to see how like some stick with it almost.
They just can't help but hold on to it in some way.
When we think about our dreams from childhood, what is that one emotional thread that you still really strongly resonate with today?
I think I wanted to change the world.
Yeah.
And I saw that a powerful way to do that was through words that could change society, to make the world a better place for people.
So noble.
Yeah.
So selfless.
It is selfless.
Yeah.
It shows like your heart as a child, you know?
She just wanted to control everyone's minds.
Master manipulator.
I see what you're doing.
We've seen the other side of that come through.
Wielded well.
What about you, Em?
What's the emotional?
I wished so deeply for everyone to find themselves, and to find themselves honestly and authentically.
And it's kind of hard to do that when you're just sitting in your room thinking about yourself.
But when you see a play, when you see an orchestral performance, when you see a concert, you see like a thread of yourself in there and to chase that down and to examine like what, what about me, is part of this performance.
Because this is the magic of what makes me me, and I feel like everyone has a little bit of magic in themselves.
And in order to kind of see it play out and see it come to life, you kind of have to watch someone else do it first.
You wanted to inspire people to be their true selves, basically.
Yes, exactly.
Wow, as a child.
That's crazy, because I saw a lot of the masks that people put up and I just like so desperately wanted to just like rip it off of everyone and be like show me who you are truly, for what you are, so I could see the magic in you that will inspire the magic in me.
And we can just inspire each other.
Yeah.
And I think it's so important that you say that because, like hearing both of you talk about what your dreams were when you were a kid, like I see that those tie back to your greatest strengths today.
You know like, how you impact people the most today, in whatever capacity.
It is like you are already reading the world as a child with your lens.
And like maybe you didn't know how impactful it was at the time, but like that desire that came from you as a child is still true today.
It still pervades.
Yeah.
And it still drives you today.
Yeah.
What about you?
What was your emotional root?
I think I just wanted to kick ass at something.
You know?
Yeah.
Be a badass.
Yeah.
Totally valid.
I didn't use those words when I was a kid.
You couldn't.
Oh, gosh.
I didn't even know what that was.
That is a bad word.
I wanted to be cool.
Oh, you wanted respect.
Yeah, I suppose.
I think you desired excellence, and the discipline, the investment, the commitment that comes, that is needed to be excellent, was worthy of respect to you, and so you you giving that to the people that you saw were great at something that inspired you to be like i.
I want to be great at something too.
Yeah, Because I think a lot of times today, even when you talk about artists scientists creators, people that you admire, you often talk about how the discipline, the commitment, the honing of their craft, like going years of practice and dedication that has made them ready for like, the spotlight moment or ready for their time to shine.
But you often will admire, like the nine years they spent honing when nobody was looking, so that they could finally be ready and prepared for their moment of finally being seen.
Yeah, and so there's yeah, there's something about the commitment, dedication that is worthy of all for you.
Yeah, because there's like so much that goes into any journey of being good at anything and like nobody knows what you feel when you're like, oh my god, i suck at this, but this is all that i have, like this is the only thing that defines me, and like i'm terrible at it, and like you don't really tell people that right.
Like you don't when you have a bad day at practice or you have like a terrible performance.
Or like you feel like you screwed up.
You know like a script or something.
Like people don't see those mistakes.
They only see the good part.
And so like when you're on top of that podium, like you are representing all the good and the bad.
Yeah.
And it's really hard.
Let's win tears, highs and lows.
Yeah.
So Jen wanted to change the world.
Emily wanted to- Why are you crying?
It's really vulnerable.
Yeah.
It is.
Yeah.
Even saying it out loud earlier, I felt kind of like choked up too.
Yeah.
I was like I've never said it like that, but- I love that you're crying because it shows me that it still means a lot to you.
Yeah.
Are we just a communal puddle of tears now?
It still means so much to you and that's the value that you've extracted in a life that's worth living.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's really beautiful.
And for me, when I hear that, whenever I'm on any journey, I hate feeling like I'm bad at something.
And so that's something I want to hide.
But for you, that's something that you think is so beautiful and so worthy to be acknowledged.
Yeah, there's no highs without lows.
That's a beautiful dream and recognition to have when you're so young too.
Kids are smart, dude.
I think it's also crazy how there's all this talk now around taking care of your inner child, but almost respecting the fantasies and places that your inner child was ignited by is like, still so important.
We really want to challenge you this week, just to reflect on what was your childhood dream and what is that emotional thread that you may have carried on into your adulthood.
And also we want to encourage you to just bask in the whimsy of of dreaming again as a child and to honor it and respect it, because you are still six year old, you even today.
Yeah.
And we, the three of us, find that to be something that's so important and something worth treasuring as well.
If you feel comfortable, I would also love to hear what your childhood dreams are.
If you wanted to drop a comment,
But it can be really vulnerable, so I understand if people don't want to.
But we love reading what you guys have to say.
So if you wanted to share.
So, from when you're a child and there are no limitations for your dreams, you start to grow up and as you get older, When does the script flip?
What happens to those dreams?
I remember in first grade we all had to share our dreams and people would say things like I want to be the first president or the first female president.
I just want to be the president.
I want to be an NBA player, all these huge dreams.
And the teacher said, yes, you should definitely do that.
And as you go second third fourth, fifth grade, the teachers stop affirming it as much, especially when you get into middle school, high school, college.
You have to pick a major.
No one's asking you about your dream.
They're just like what is the most practical way to make a lot of money in corporate America or in corporate anywhere.
And suddenly your dreams have to take a backseat.
Sometimes they gotta just hop in the trunk.
Sometimes they're even just left behind at home.
And I don't know for me.
I noticed that switch in not prioritizing dreaming big when I entered sixth grade in middle school.
What happened?
Recess stopped.
We didn't have recess.
I don't think that people really realize how important play is for dreaming and for your imagination.
Then suddenly we had electives.
You had to choose a path.
You had to play an instrument and suddenly your dreams kind of notched down.
For me.
I remember thinking oh, maybe not a circus performer, maybe a historian or a concert flautist or something.
Yeah.
And then your dreams just slowly slowly, become more and more practical, because no one is telling you to go for it.
And I'm not sure if that's just our Asian upbringing.
It could be.
But I just noticed throughout my lifetime, people stop encouraging you in your whimsy and in your imagination.
And if anything, they tell you to stop that.
And I think that's the most tragic thing.
I feel like the questions asked, like, when did the script flip?
I don't know why that's so hard to say.
The tongue twister.
Script flip.
And the questions meant to be, I think, like, things shift significantly.
But I think what I remember feeling was and looking back, reflecting is that it felt more like a fading the way a photograph fades over time.
Because I don't think it was like a huge rejection and resistance to dreams that I had that were kept being like, met with, maybe for you, and it was a little bit different.
I just found people didn't ask anymore.
Teachers didn't ask.
Parents didn't ask.
Your friend's parents didn't ask anymore.
What did you want to be when you grew up?
You stopped getting to do the fun exercise in class to like draw what you wanted to be when you grew up.
And so much was more focused on execution in school.
The way I visualized my head is like the little me's head was just like turned instead of looking in this direction of my dreams.
It was like oh, let's just look this way a little bit more, and this way a little bit more in the direction of stability security, financial means to support yourself.
So it's almost like what they call reality sets in and you have to now calibrate your dreams back or be realistic.
Come on, got to be realistic.
It felt like more of a slow fading, a slow nudging, a slow turning towards whatever practicality means.
Did you notice the shift at all or was it a reflection of when you looked back on your life?
It was in retrospect.
Okay.
Yeah.
So you don't even know when it's happening?
No.
That's so sad.
Yeah.
I think it was a lot more subtle for me.
The things that I desired and were asked about and encouraged in were just shifted in a different direction.
So, as a child, I just went with okay, this is what I'm supposed to be thinking about now is how to support myself, how to be independent as an adult.
Yeah.
It starts at 12.
No more recess.
No more recess.
Yeah.
It's interesting because when I think about being a kid, people would ask me what do you want to be?
And I would say, oh, I want to be a doctor.
Funnily enough, I never said I wanted to be an Olympian, which is odd.
Maybe I thought it was too vulnerable when I was a kid.
But I would say all these things that I knew were generally acclaimed because doctors, they help people.
That was my dream, but I didn't know if that's actually what I wanted.
I just wanted to help people and do good.
And the doctor path seemed like the avenue that would accomplish that.
But then I don't have a direct answer for your question.
But I do remember in elementary school, there was an assignment that I had in second grade.
And I think my perspective in life changed with this assignment.
And so it was really a wonderful teacher.
Actually, his name is Mr. Taylor.
I don't know where he is.
But he assigned us like basically a free a free form assignment where he was like create any product that you want and draw it, draw the packaging and sell it to me in your next class.
And so I was like, oh my God, this is sick.
There's so many cool things that I would like to make.
What could it be?
So my idea was that it would be like, a seed and you can basically grow whatever it would be.
And so for me, I had a couple ideas.
I think one of them was like growing a peanut butter and jelly sandwich like as a plant.
And then I think something else was maybe like a glow in the dark, something just because it was cool.
But I think I went with the peanut butter jelly sandwich.
And I remember I literally drew the packaging.
And I was like, this is genius.
And then I showed my parents.
And I said, look, this is my idea.
It's a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that you can grow.
And you don't have to make it.
You can just cut it off and then bring it to school.
It's your lunch.
You can harvest it.
Yeah.
And I was so excited and I couldn't wait to present it in front of the class.
Didn't even like presenting, i was just like i'm so excited about this, um.
But then i showed to my parents and they were like oh, that's not very realistic.
You know, maybe you should do something that's that actually like exists, like baby spinach.
And i remember i was like a dog with my tail between my legs.
I went back to my my, my room and i was like okay, so i erased everything i had colored it.
I erased everything and then i created a baby spinach bag and then i presented it the next day and mr taylor was like great job madeline, but i just wish you would have been a little more creative.
And i was like I did that.
My dreams didn't necessarily change in terms of what I wanted to be.
But in that moment, I was like, whatever you imagine is probably not worth anything.
And then I remember seeing all my friends present really cool ideas.
And I was like, man, I want to be in the ranks with them.
And I had a great idea.
I want to be an idea Olympian.
Yeah.
But then I just had to admire what they did, and I didn't get to share my idea.
So I think when that happened, the script flipped in my mind.
That makes me sad.
And I just was indirectly told to imagine less. which is kind of tragic.
I think it was really great that, two things.
I think it was really great that he created a space for you to create.
I don't think there's a lot of places just in our world to encourage that use of imagination.
And I'm really happy he did that.
But then I think The second lesson there that I'm getting from you is you really have to protect your ideas and protect your creativity, because people will think it's a bad idea, but that's how things get made right.
Just having crazy ideas.
Like there wasn't electric cars 20 years ago, but now there is because someone said, what if?
And they protected it.
I'm interested to know from that experience did you feel like your ability to dream was kind of squashed?
Did you feel like moving forward?
You couldn't dream anymore.
And When and how did you kind of come back out of your shell and say maybe it is okay to be a little crazy and be a little wild, despite what other people think?
I don't know if I ever did come back out.
Which is really sad again.
Do you want to come back out?
Well, I think maybe within the past couple of years I've come back out.
If anyone has listened to our jobs episode where I talked about retail, that was a totally different kind of thread I was interested in.
That was reawoken when I moved to San Francisco.
But I think, in terms of creativity specifically don't know if i came back out and then i think i'm trying to tie it back to being an olympian and i don't really know how it does because i think like there's different types of dreaming that you have as a kid.
One is like having the freedom to have ideas and another is like what you want to be and what that signifies.
So i think, like maybe they're kind of intertwined, but you know, in terms of answering the question, it might be a little difficult.
I might not be helping.
I think they're a lot more connected perhaps, than you think they are, because what you get really excited about today is excellence and quality in retail products that are thoughtfully designed, packaged and branded well, with an entire supply chain that has been thoughtfully crafted.
We just went to Erewhon a few days ago.
Oh my God.
And the way you oogled at the product creations, everything.
I hate that I love it.
Oh, my God, it's everything but that act, that value of excellence and quality, from being that the olympic dreams yeah, the ideal olympian and then to bring it to life in every step of, like a product marketing creation process.
There's something there and how those two threads maybe are interweaving, but they're being awakened in different ways for you, maybe So when you do have a crazy idea.
If you allow yourself to have those, what do you think about it when it happens?
Do you shut it down yourself or do you let it exist or do you let it fade?
I haven't really thought of crazy ideas regularly since, but what I do find is that being able to accurately represent and emotion specifically, is really what everything comes down to.
So, like with the peanut butter and jelly sandwich, I wanted to create something that would like solve a problem of having to bring lunch.
You know what i mean.
And the solution was oh my god, it's so easy.
I can just cut this thing off the plant and eat it, you know.
So that's why i had the idea.
And then, and then, if you dig into it even a little bit more, it's like oh, you just want to like help people have an easier life yeah, and so i think, when there are plumes of that desire that i notice coming alive, like i won't shut that down, but i think, like maybe the actual ideation has not yet been revived.
I see, and it's a work in progress okay yeah, i think the most heartbreaking part about growing up is that Our imaginations are no longer seen as essential to living a good and happy life.
I think the clearest way that we were able to exhibit what was going on in our heads was through a career path.
Honestly, that's why people love going to Disney and Legos and playing with these tiny glimpses of childhood that have been kind of marketed to be more palatable to the world, so that they can go back and enter a space of imagination.
I think we wanted to just validate that.
This is not a world that takes imagination seriously.
And we feels sad that it's happened for us and for everyone else, but I don't think it's something that we have to relegate ourselves to.
We don't have to settle for this kind of existence when We have control over what we imagine and what we bring to life.
If you have found a way to protect that throughout growing up, we would love to hear, because we need all the tips that we can get.
So from your childhood to now, how have you been able to evolve and develop your ability to dream?
Yeah, it's, I don't know, we're still figuring it out, you know?
But I think going to college I studied information systems and I had a.
You wonder what being in the real world is gonna be like, working your corporate job that you think is supposed to be the thing that you're supposed to dream about or at least achieve.
And I had a particularly bad internship experience where i was so it was so dry.
I hated every bit of it.
I felt like i was stuck in that little office space and around the same time during that internship and it was my junior year is very much when you're pushed to think about what's practical and getting a full-time job around the same time.
In school I needed to fulfill a credit for like a humanities credit to graduate.
And I took a class about film and I fell in love with film.
And then, all of a sudden, I was a junior year being like.
I worked this terrible internship that I really hated.
What was it?
Why did you dislike it?
Oh, why did I dislike it?
Yeah, like what was the position and why did you dislike it?
It was an engineering role and it was for me, devoid of the need to be with people and with humans, that I craved.
And so I was like one-to-one with a machine for eight hours a day, and I barely talked to anybody all day.
And it was really soul-sucking.
I didn't understand the purpose of what I was doing.
And at the same time, my heart was being activated by movies and the power of film.
And I took this class called The Rise of the Blockbuster, which I think is now thinking back.
Now it's epiphaning me in my head.
My brain right now is the class premise was around how films can activate people and why certain films catch fire and why people go and show up for something like Jurassic Park or The Sound of Music.
And so it almost married together.
Maybe to throw back to like being able to shape people's hearts and minds and change the world.
I realized, maybe through film, that was a medium that could be really magnetic and powerful for teaching us what to want and what to desire.
So those two things were happening around the same time as I was like what do I want to do with the rest of my life?
Yeah, that desire that you had as a kid to shape minds and hearts and impact a lot of people was being awakened by this completely new medium that you hadn't ever experienced, which was film.
And it was this beautiful art form that you were like wow, this is exactly what I've been looking for my whole life, but I didn't even know it.
And I think, being so starved in my day job internship that I thought was gonna be the thing that would meet my goal, or my dream, or my achievement.
I'm almost grateful that it was so terrible, because I was starving and needing to find somewhere else to be inspired and ignited.
And when I found it, I like voraciously jumped fully into that world.
And I think at the towards as I was like in my last year of college, I took so many film classes.
I ended up instead of doing an HCI minor, which would have been more practical for me.
Human computer interaction.
I ended up doing a film minor.
And I was like, screw it.
I'm going to do the film minor.
But I was kind of met at graduation with like, well, what do I do now?
Because I spent so much of my time pursuing this degree that I thought was going to be useful.
But I love this other thing.
And so, after graduating and starting my full-time job, I realized that those desires and things that my heart was ignited by needs to be fed.
And so I started a film podcast with a friend as a way to just keep up with this medium and be in the world and soak in it and talk about it and study it.
I remember at the time having the thought of like, if I don't feed this, it can fade.
And so not starving those desires and passions, I think is really important.
And it has been this really great medium to continue to be captivated and have those moments of like ah, This medium, this art form is so magical.
And just learning, like soaking myself in that work.
I mean, having a film podcast is awesome.
You guys should check it out.
It's called Movies and Us.
Movies and Us.
And she also has a TV podcast as well.
Called TVs and Us.
TV and Us.
TV and Us.
We got Movies and Us and TV and Us.
And the Movies one has been around for six years.
Yeah.
And they're getting recognized by a lot of really cool people in the industry.
And it has become clear that her and her friend Sarah are kind of these industry experts at this point because they've spent so much and poured so much of their time into consuming something that they're passionate about, which I think highlights a really important point about when you noticed that that part of you could die.
You were like, I must water this plant before it shrivels.
And look at what can happen when you naturally have that desire.
You become an industry expert, you know?
Yeah.
And I love that you minored in it because it shows of course you're kind of timid about maybe this isn't a very clear career.
It's not going to be practical, but it's still something that I value and I want to be part of my life.
So it was maybe your first step into this world.
And now you're so immersed in it and I'm so excited to see like where you're going to end up.
Because I feel like even just now this is just like the beginning of a really cool career.
And think about like your emotional response now talking about minoring in human computer interactions.
I know would you rather say that or film like no, but because for some people computer that human computer interactions is will change the world.
But for you that starved you.
You know It was very dramatic because you had to take six classes to get to both minors and I had five in each and I had one semester left and I had only one slot to take one more class.
And I was like, I'm not taking two classes and overloading senior spring just to finish these.
So it was like literally right in front of me, which one do you want?
Which path do you want to take?
Yeah.
I agonized over it too.
I was like, This one's very seemingly useful for like resumes.
I love this one.
I gotta do this one in principle.
My act of rebellion in Sooner Springs.
Yeah, I think it's important to note that chasing your dreams requires bravery.
Yeah.
And it requires putting your foot down and treating it seriously.
And I think for you, choosing to finish out the semester with one more foam class was your act of bravery, your act of rebellion.
Good for you, Jennifer.
I think that's a really great point, which is that dreams are vulnerable because they are your heart's desires.
They're how your hearts are wired and what gets you so excited.
So, to say out loud, my dream would be to either direct a film or help get films to people and distribute them in some way, and be able to inform what the masses get to see and what stories are told and what stories they get to imagine themselves in would be the dream.
It's scary to say out loud because it makes it real.
Yeah.
You know?
And then you have to do something about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you keep it inside, it's just always something that, you know, but now a frivolous fantasy.
And now you're like, I really want this.
Yeah.
You have to say that louder.
It is my dream to direct films or create opportunities for films to be distributed, to be a decision maker in which films get to be distributed to the masses, to the people, and to see audience reactions.
Absolutely love and fall in love with a film and have it change their inner world somehow, how they see themselves, what stories they're in and what they dream about.
Shaping their dreams.
Yay.
It's hard.
That is so hard to say.
Yeah.
With conviction.
Yes.
Yes.
I'm so proud of you.
Yeah.
I think it's hard to state the dream with conviction because then you have to face the reality of the gap. yeah of where you are right now which is a pro product manager what do you do some microsoft azure i don't i'm not really sure she's a product manager at microsoft tech tech whatever that means she's tech right very successful in tech but then heart longs for film wants to be at the top of this industry like that gap is insurmountable or feels that way, right?
And if you say it out loud, you're like, well, I gotta do something about this now.
And that seems like It seems like an impossible task.
Why would you sign up for that?
But it's clearly what keeps your soul alive.
So who wants to speak with conviction to the mic next?
Emily.
How do you dream and what are your dreams today?
I feel like...
Throughout my whole life, people have always looked down at my dreams.
It was either silly, it would get me in danger.
My dream was always to perform in either the form of acting, being on screen.
I'm not really sure. where it's going.
But yeah, ever since I was a kid, just the environment I grew up in it was it was laughed at and it was discouraged.
So from a very early age I knew that it had to be my own secret and I would only share it with.
I would make the moves, I would take the classes, but I just wouldn't tell anybody that I was doing it because I wanted to seriously do it for the rest of my life, because it was always always met with well, you can pursue it if you want, but in two or three years, when you're ready to quit, you can always come home.
And then you can just expected failure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I was met with a lot of like, oh, you should go do this.
But we know it's a phase.
It's a phase.
And you can always come home with open arms.
We'll be here for you.
And when you see that, it will disappoint you and it won't. satisfy you, we'll be here.
The when rings so well, the when you see it.
And so the way I dream has always been in secret.
And I think because it was in secret, it became a source of shame.
Just because, when you hide something for so long, you begin to think that it's wrong because you are hiding it.
Wow.
So the way I have dreamed up to this point, maybe like a few years ago, was I just wouldn't tell anyone unless I really trusted that person.
And even then I was so scared to hear what they would have to say.
And I've had so many people come into my life to speak truth into that.
Like I've had really good friends say, I see that this is your path.
Like Maddie says this all the time.
She's like, I think you're meant to be doing this.
And for someone to seriously say that and really mean it Honestly.
It means the world to me because I'm like okay, so it's not just me that sees it.
I'm not being a silly dreamer.
Maybe this is real for me.
And I feel, as Asian Americans, it's harder to be more vocal about your dreams, especially if your dream isn't to become a lawyer, like the top partner or whatever, at this really famous law firm firm in new york.
So um, my dreams of being an actor, being a performer, have been reignited and i think it's been encouraged through sharing it with people that i trust.
Only i don't.
I still don't share it with the world.
Maybe i should.
You are now.
Yeah.
Say it now.
And also being on social media and doing comedy skits and doing things that I think are funny.
It always feels so terrifying to me before I upload.
It never gets easier.
Every single time I'm about to upload, I go through this thing in my head where I'm like well, people think this is funny.
Will it resonate with one million people at least?
If it flops, Will I be okay with it publicly flopping?
So I feel making content on social media feels like you're naked and you're trying to learn a new instrument in the middle of a busy mall.
That's how it feels.
That echoes and reverberates through the whole mall.
Yeah.
I think the best way for me to protect that dream and to keep it alive for myself is just to keep doing it and every single day facing that fear, because the repetition and the consistency makes it real to me and it makes it real in my brain and that's all that matters and to protect that and to keep it from everyone else in terms of like, I don't show people what I upload before I upload and I don't tell people my ideas anymore because, similar to what Maddie said about her sandwich, sometimes I would tell people an idea and, based off their reaction of the idea,
That's when I'm like, oh, maybe it's not a good idea.
And then it never goes out into the world, which is very sad.
So being protective, but also being very loud about it to yourself. and to other people.
So I, Emily Lin, want to be an honest and authentic entertainer in this world.
And I want people to be inspired to explore the depths of their hearts and their soul through the observation of any type of performance, but hopefully mine as well.
How did it feel?
It was terrifying.
It's terrifying to acknowledge that out loud.
I didn't like that.
I didn't like that at all.
It's easier to describe everything around it versus saying it point blank period.
Cause you leave it up for people to judge, and maybe you, even you viewer think this is stupid, but I don't care as long as I care.
And we wanna encourage people to be brave about it and just say the thing, say the thing.
Yeah.
And I think it highlights a really good point, which is you may have the dream, but if, if nobody believes in it, then you don't believe in yourself.
And so back to Jay's point about like if media tells you to believe in yourself or you see yourself in media like that's one source of it, even if your environment is not encouraging you.
But then for you it was like family and environment that was like discouraging you, so you had to surround yourself with people that saw the same vision that you did, and so, like part of Closing that gap is ensuring that people see what you see.
And that's going to be really hard because there's going to be people that don't like it.
And then once you say it, people are going to disagree and find a way to break you down.
And they might not even intentionally want to break you down.
But just by a matter of you stating something, you give people something to like.
Comment on pro or
And I want to share something that Em told me once that reverberates in my mind a lot, which is she said when you receive pushback or critique on something that you love or that you desire about you, it's an opportunity for you to double down on yourself.
And I think this is like a perfect example of it.
And I think about that all the time.
Now I just hear your voice saying it to me, and dreams are something that sometimes you have to double down on, even when it doesn't make sense or you're scoffed at.
But if you believe in it, like the world needs you to believe in it, because you are the perfect person to potentially birth that into the world, into existence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think there's like also a balance of you could easily go down the path of being delusional and not being able to listen to anyone that's giving constructive criticism, which is not the vibe.
That's not what we're going for.
But understanding there's a balance of, okay, when do I continue pursuing this?
Maybe I can't pursue it 100, but I can give 20 of my attention to this, like now i have 40.
Now i can like financially invest a little bit.
Now i can give more of my time to this.
You know like, whatever it is like keeping, like keep watering that even it was just a slow trickle of sugar, um to keep it alive, until you are at a point in your life where you can take a bet on yourself.
But any tiny bet that you can take, just do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's worth it.
It's worth it for you.
Feed it along the way.
Yeah.
If you feel it in your soul, it's real.
Yeah.
You have to honor yourself.
Yeah.
Because no one can do it better than you can.
Madeline.
Your turn.
How do you dream?
How do you dream?
And what are your dreams today?
It's interesting hearing you guys talk about dreaming, because I think either I am trying to avoid the difficult part of doing the dream or I kind of operate a little differently.
Maybe it's a combination of both, but I find that I dream of like states more than I dream of a specific picture or thing.
So I joked with you guys about if I want a guy, I'll go get him.
If I want a job, it's mine.
If I want something, I will get it kind of thing.
But then I think a lot of times.
What's interesting is I'm chasing a feeling or a state more than I am an actual thing.
Does that make sense?
So, like for my job, like I wanted to work in retail and whatever that meant, even if it was like working in logistics for it, I didn't care, as long as I was in that world.
Or if I wanted, like recently, it's quite boring, but I just want stability.
And whatever that looks like, it could be different.
It doesn't matter where I am, but I just want that feeling of not being stretched super thin all the time.
And so i think like i chase.
I chase that feeling because that's what gives my heart peace.
If that makes sense, your dreams are states of being yeah, and so right now, in this season, it's peace.
Are they?
Did they stack?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like like one of the coupons, like like one of my dreams, which is maybe a little morbid is like I never want.
I mean just realistically, like my parents are getting older and like I never want to be in a position where, like if they were to leave me, I don't ever want to like regret not trying.
So I make it a point to like call them.
I make it a point to go home back to Wichita Kansas multiple times a year, as much as like I am capable of.
And I think I, I find peace in knowing that like, if that had to happen, I wouldn't regret it.
It would suck, but I wouldn't have to live with guilt or shame or regret.
You say, if you don't feel like you have tried enough in that one area for example, your parents you would live with the guilt.
That seems like a lot of pressure. to perform and do the most.
And I feel like, do you have way more areas as well that you could apply that to?
And like, cause you're just a finite person, so.
Yeah.
Would it be possible to potentially not do enough by the time that thing leaves?
No, no, because it's more of like who I am, who am I today?
What am I capable of and what can I do right now?
It's not like it's not like I wish to accomplish seeing them seven times by the end of 2025.
It's more like, do I feel like I tried everything I could?
Because sometimes, like trying to 100 of my capacity, is going to be texting them once that day, which sounds like everyone's different.
That might be not enough for someone else on a subjective measure.
But for me, I'm like, if that's all I could do, I don't think that's enough.
But if that's all I could do, at least I did what I could.
You know what I mean?
I think the concept that you described of dreaming about states of being is so interesting and so different from the way that I think most people would even think about the question what are your dreams?
Because most of the time you hear people answer that question with things that feel more like specific- Tangible.
Tangible, tactical things.
I'm curious if your dreams are tied to parts of yourself that are desires or needs that you're able to find ways to meet in many, many different ways.
In the way that oftentimes people dream.
It's them moving into a new state and occupying that new state right, but you dream almost like it's almost this, like gentler, more evolved way, as you are evolving and growing, almost they just feel a little, they feel a little more amorphous like yeah, another feeling.
You dream of a feeling.
Yeah, like another example i have is like i, when i was younger, i just really wanted to travel a lot and i didn't really care like what that would look like.
So if that meant scraping and buying the cheapest flight and and barely having a place to sleep, and like bringing my own noodles um, and bringing my own food, you know, like as long as i saw the place and i experienced that culture and i could look back and say like i have been to one more place than before, like that's what i cared about.
It wasn't like i have been around the world, it wasn't that like i have this experience of, of travel and therefore i am this person.
It's like i just want to know that i have done that, like done what i wanted to do, Yeah.
How do the new states that you dream of come to be as you go through different seasons of life?
I envision how I feel.
I want to be sitting on my couch with hot water just watching TV, knowing that I am content in X, Y and Z.
Whatever that could be.
It feels unsatisfying to say that.
Why?
I don't know.
I just feel like it's not very.
I feel like it would resonate with a lot of people that think the same way you do.
What do you dream of now?
Because you talked about how previously earlier this year, through a lot of this year, you were dreaming of stability and peace.
Have you found, begun to find that?
No.
Okay.
I am not living my dream right now, guys.
I am stretched thin.
I'm really unhappy.
I'm not sleeping enough.
If you had to articulate what your dreams in the states of being are today, my dream is to see your dreams come true, because i believe that emily is born a star and i think um, she has so much to offer and i see it in real life and i think she's proven it on her tick tock page and her instagram but i, i think that's just the beginning of what she has to offer.
And then i think um, the way that jen works and her mind in seeing what, how people need to be met, is a skill that is rare, that she possesses, that she has honored and um, i think it's starting to come true.
Like i, i see steps, because i've known you for as long as the podcast has been alive and I mean, I don't I don't listen to it every week
Sorry.
But but you know, just like hearing who, the connections that you're making and kind of the strides that you're taking, like I think there's a lot in store for both of you.
And I just can't wait to see it.
And I see a rich, peaceful life for you.
Maybe when we round out the new year.
Not this year, but maybe next year.
Well, thank you both for sharing so vulnerably what your dreams are, even if it looks tangible or intangible.
I think we all dream very differently, but I think, at the same time, it's important to name it out loud and to honor it.
So we also wanted to encourage our viewers and our listeners to dream big for yourself like, really do it and honor it, name it out loud and share it with the people you trust, protect it and, If you have to write it down, if you would like to share it with us in the comments section, we would love to hear that from you.
For realsies, be brave.
Expect that there will be dissonance and it's going to feel like an impossible gap to close.
You may never close it, you know, but the fact that it's there and you take strides forward, you as a person will change when you do that.
And so you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't.
The dream isn't even really achieving the dream.
It's the journey that you take.
All those cliches are true, aren't they?
It's so true.
All the lessons you learn in the journey of being put through the ringer and being faced with rejection over and over and over again and having to fight against that over and over again.
That builds grit and you just become so much more even in your pursuit, even if you never achieve it.
But we hope you do.
We hope you do achieve it.
We may not be children in dreaming anymore, but we are still children inside in many ways.
And seeing where your daydreams and fantasies run to are so telling.
As an adult.
Now, like what do you?
Flippantly, a thought lands into your mind like oh, it'd be cool if I
Nah.
Like what is that?
If you were to finish that sentence, what do you envision?
And then feel like it's too silly.
And then something about that distills down.
You can distill down like a deep desire or a passion or a way that you are specifically wired, that the world needs.
So i think sometimes dreams are often talked about in terms of you self-actualizing and you realizing things in yourself.
But it's also a gift to the world, and the world needs your dreams just as much as you yourself need your dreams too, in a way.
So yeah, if it's laughable, that's probably the dream.
Go the direction of resistance.
We're just dropping platitudes, but it's true.
And you're never too old to dream.
You're never too old to dream.
Do not stop dreaming until you cannot dream anymore, seriously.
Until you are incoherent.
Exactly.
Do not give up on your dream.
Don't give up on you.
You can find us on YouTube Spotify Instagram, TikTok.
Wherever you get your podcasts, you can find us at the hot pursuit pod.
We have a fun new website up the hot pursuit pod.com.
And we will be back next Tuesday with a whole new topic, a whole new set of questions.
Stay tuned to find out what we're diving into, what we're going to cry about next.
And with that, Hot Pursuit out.
